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On April 02 2012 23:10 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:13 Canadaehz wrote:
Protoss has no way to deal with Brood Lord Infestor late game WITHOUT a Mothership. Same thing with Zerg. Zerg can't beat the protoss deathball without Brood Lord Infestor. Protoss can deal with broodlord/infestor by not engaging it! Blink stalkers can pick off zerg expansions before the immobile zerg army can arrive, while you take additional bases.
This is true...
While Zerg is trying to make their impossibly large spine wall because their whole army can't fucking move, Protoss can stay with a large amount of Stalkers and play the poke game.
This is the same argument I was using when Blizz decided to give Phoenix the range upgrade. Blink stalkers are just like Mutas, only worse because they're actually good units in general in addition to being incredibly fast and annoying. If phoenix need a range upgrade in order to hold off muta harass, roaches need a range upgrade too in order to hold off stalker harass.
I'm waiting, Blizzard...
(Btw, this is not a complaint about Stalkers being OP, its a complaint about the stupidity of the phoenix upgrade.)
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On April 02 2012 15:30 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 15:24 -Kaiser- wrote:
I just want to say that I find the lack of bias in the OP very unsettling and I don't understand how to react. + Show Spoiler +he's probably a terran player sick of watching pvz o:!
As a Terran player, a find PvZ extremely boring most of the times.
Even ZvZ can be more enjoyable now and then.
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On April 02 2012 22:18 GGzerG wrote:Because you aren't massing stargate units. Mass carriers / pheonix / voidray / and a mothership, and you won't hate PvZ as much anymore once you learn to master the build, don't forget to mass cannons with it. gl 
Carriers are incredibly good against BL/Infestor and basically everything Zerg once you get them to 2/1 or better... but...
If the match-up revolves around you sitting there behind a wall of cannons (spines) massing carriers (bl/infestor) until you doom-push across the map and hope to win there is something wrong with the match-up. It's like TvP in BW except less exciting.
Don't get me wrong, there have been tons of sick PvZs, but the majority of them are bland/boring 2-base all-ins or "I'm going to camp until I get my deathball LOL" whereas PvT and especially TvZ have MUCH MUCH more action, more comebacks, etc.
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On April 02 2012 15:37 Ahzz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:10 HardlyNever wrote:
This is something I've noticed as well. The MU feels like both sides are trying to out-gimmick (or for lack of a better term, out "cheese") each other. This is on both sides. They are trying for the most economic build. Then the most all-in build.
One of the major problems, from the protoss perspective, is the way the armies relate to each other. More specifically, if you lose your main army with protoss (read gas intensive units) in this match-up you lose the game. You can't trade army units for army units against zerg, you have to do economic damage. This means you can harass with stuff like zealots and warp-prisms, and maybe a few air units, but most of your gas has to be dumped into the big ball of doom. So you get this scenario where protoss is forced to sit on their army and keep building on it, because trading it for something as cheap as roaches and lings is insta-lose. You can't have back and forth scenarios against zerg, because it is a losing proposition for protoss.
This is somewhat true against terran as well, just not as un-forgiving as they often have expensive core units (ghosts, medivacs, vikings) that you can whittle down and really hurt terran as well.
The only zerg units that function like this are brood lords, and to a lesser extent infestors. Everything else is expendable for zerg, so you have to just roll over it with protoss with minimal losses. That is not a problem at all. Even in brood war it wasn't possible to trade an army with a zerg and be cool with it. You gotta do more. The point is, until we talk about 20+ minutes mothership broodlord action, protoss army >>>> zerg army. Of course you cannot 'trade' because that would mean you microed your stuff absolutely terribly. The point is, you win against a zerg army, secure another expansion with it, possibly take out one zerg exp, and get out before he rebuilds. This was more or less what it was in broodwar too, and it wasn't a problem there. However, the problem which OP stated still remains very valid, ZvP is downright BORING. Broodlords are a boring unit. Combine them with mass spines and infestors, and you have a very boring MU. It's stupid to the point where neither side can advance even if they have an advantage, because if zerg attacks with 200/200 brood WITHOUT spines, he will lose the game, so he must wait another 10 minutes to advance with spines and eventually end the game. So stupid
Umm... no. Why the overall concept might be vaguely similar, the way in which these engagements play out is vastly different. There were no forcefields in BW. There was no fungal growth in BW. You could reasonably lose part of your army in BW, while have the rest of it escape.
This isn't really the case in SC2. Most engagements with zerg are all or nothing for both sides. Either the protoss wins with forcefield placement and prevents most of the zerg from escaping, or they lose. Protoss can't escape from zerg at all anymore. Fungal growth and speedlings prevent that sort of thing. While there were speedlings in BW, the overall mobility of a protoss army has decreased relative to speedlings, so you can't get away with anything besides blink stalkers.
So... yes, it is the problem. You can't seriously commit to an attack against zerg with protoss without it being basically "all-in" in SC2.
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On April 02 2012 23:18 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 23:10 TangSC wrote:On April 02 2012 14:13 Canadaehz wrote:
Protoss has no way to deal with Brood Lord Infestor late game WITHOUT a Mothership. Same thing with Zerg. Zerg can't beat the protoss deathball without Brood Lord Infestor. Protoss can deal with broodlord/infestor by not engaging it! Blink stalkers can pick off zerg expansions before the immobile zerg army can arrive, while you take additional bases. This is true... While Zerg is trying to make their impossibly large spine wall because their whole army can't fucking move, Protoss can stay with a large amount of Stalkers and play the poke game. This is the same argument I was using when Blizz decided to give Phoenix the range upgrade. Blink stalkers are just like Mutas, only worse because they're actually good units in general in addition to being incredibly fast and annoying. If phoenix need a range upgrade in order to hold off muta harass, roaches need a range upgrade too in order to hold off stalker harass. I'm waiting, Blizzard... (Btw, this is not a complaint about Stalkers being OP, its a complaint about the stupidity of the phoenix upgrade.)
Or you could use... ya know... fungal growth. It has range 9 and stops things from moving.
If psi storm rooted things, phoenix wouldn't have needed the range upgrade.
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On April 02 2012 23:18 Jermstuddog wrote:
If phoenix need a range upgrade in order to hold off muta harass, roaches need a range upgrade too in order to hold off stalker harass.
I'm waiting, Blizzard...
When roaches cost same as stalkers they may get this upgrade lol
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On April 02 2012 22:17 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:10 Coramoor wrote:
because zerg can do whatever they want and protoss basically can't punish it anymore, so protoss tries not to die and then hopes the zerg is an idiot with broodlords that balance whine wasn't even remotely disguised and you have no idea what you are saying. zerg can't do whatever they want and can be punished extremely easily. the whole idea here is that its a shit match up for both races. 1 small mistake and you lose to a timing push, get to the late game with the wrong composition you lose terribly. its retarded for both races. not just for protoss.
it's not a balance whine, the whole point of that massive thread in the strategy section is that stephano's build is just far too tight for what it is, and while people are still working it out like crazy, almost every aexample of protoss success is either going pure gamble that they are going for a greedy opening or zerg makes a massive mistake, see idra vs feast at the end of that thread
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Personally I enjoy the matchup because of how creative you can be. You can do drops, you HAVE to harrass, which means that as toss you cannot be passive to a point, and in my opinion, thats a good thing. Its really 1 major build, but this branch off makes a fun matchup, that can be frustrating, is possibly the most far reaching and tech oriented MU. PvP is Blink stalks or robo first or maybe phoenix or maybe DT, its just opening up now, but PvZ is now at a huge maturing point where people have set builds and are evolving less and less. The MU in my opinion is completely balanced, but incredibly hard. If either side gives up a little slip in some cases, they can snow ball and create huge gaps. PvP and PvT also have this, though PvP may be even more unforgiving, PvZ is a nice medium that is the most rewarding for creativity.Basically my point is that yes, the early game MU is the same almost every game, but the mid to late game is incredibly varied, SG openings change, Gateway openings vary greatly. Robo and Templar tech i won't even dare to go into because of the hugely varied harrassment options with them (walk ins, sharking, zealot bombs, DT Bombs, Storm drops, Sentry drops, ETC.)
For zerg there are several styles but I (as toss) don't know them inside and out, BUT the stephano style and mass muta, BL infestory combos for late game, and roach massing with hydras. The list goes on.
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I'm zerg, and my vs. Protoss has gotten so much easier lately. It's actually kind of silly how many drones you P's let us make at my rank, really surprises me that I don't have to do anything until 8-9 mins if that... so I've been throwing in hardcore 2 base muta lately. I'm thinking "if they arent touching me at all why not get 20+ mutas at 11-12???". Starting to feel like Protoss has to completely blindside me with something like Stargate or DTs if we're evenly matched.
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I'm a random player and the way zvp goes for me is like this:
I get to grab 3 fast bases and zerg and just have to defend the incoming all in, or if they dont all in i get to max out at 12 or 13 minutes. If I hold the all in i win too.
pvz goes exactly the same. I have to all in the zerg if he gets 3 fast bases, these all ins are really hard for zerg to stop if unscouted, but if I fail the all in I auto lose. Also, if I don't all in I feel I am way too behind macro wise, I used to do stargate openings but now most zergs get a early evo and have spores even without scouting which makes stargate play much less effective. If I don't all in I try to get a mothership on 2-3 bases by 20mins so I don't die to broodlords.
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I'm with blade5555555.
Remove warpgate and FF, and buff gateway units and protoss in other ways.
I have a feeling warpgate was a thing Blizzard tried at the start to see if we'd like it and thought it was cool, and it is cool, but balance-wise it just doesn't seem right. It's too hard to account for defense and protoss aggression with warp-gate in play.
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EPT
