EPTWhy is PvZ such a shitty MU? - Page 2
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cmen15
United States1519 Posts
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ETisME
12304 Posts
almost every single pvz is 2 base all-in from toss and the game is over from there, either the zerg gets roll over or toss tries to play from behind all those 10 mins-ish macro is win/lose within 2 mins of the first few engagements... | ||
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NoobStyles
Australia257 Posts
On April 02 2012 15:56 blade55555 wrote: Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo. I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo. OMG this *infinity, having to balance toss around relying on warp and FF really screwed the race up IMO. they get destroyed early game VS anything at all without FF and mid game they get instant aggressive reenforcement, honestly how could you do anything but all in? Also every time I see zerg building like 7000 spines and slowly creeping across the map, I just think to myself; "really..... this is the 'correct' way to play late game????" it seems pretty fucking retarded. | ||
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how
United States538 Posts
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ragnorr
Denmark6097 Posts
On April 02 2012 15:56 blade55555 wrote: Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo. I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo. I would like to see warpgates and sentries be killed. Warpgates pretty much have lead for gateway units to become weaker(Otherwise it would be extremly inbalanced) and because of that we had to get the sentry. The sentry as a unit is terrible, it makes your opponent feel helpless in battles and as a protoss makes you rely mainly on FFs as your only deciding factor in how the outcome of battle is(I would like to see any sort of micro to be introduced into the protoss composition). As a protoss in late game i cant feel nothing but helpless due to the fact we only have the mothership to battle the blord composition(I miss arbiters -_-). I wish blizzard would see more on how protoss was a successfull race in BW instead of trying to keep sentries and warpgates in the game just so SC2 is not BW | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
PvZ / ZvP feels too easy to lose, and too easy to win. | ||
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arsenic
United States163 Posts
On April 02 2012 15:56 blade55555 wrote: Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo. I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo. You're definitely not the only one who feels this way. I've always felt that Warp-In and FF ruin the PvZ matchup and make for really silly games. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On April 02 2012 15:56 blade55555 wrote: Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo. I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo. i have to agree  Playing vs protoss i always get this shitty feeling, got yourself into bad situation ? Preapre to die and start new match. Is he standing in front of your base near a proxy pylon, no you cant kill his reinforcements... Dynamics are killing me, i can recognise the moment i already lost immedietly (and the game can go on for 5-10 more minutes). In ZvT or ZvZ i can at least conjure something, sometimes. ZvP just gives me the most linear feeling of 1 side winning or losing. | ||
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ETisME
12304 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
You could also try playing Fewer Resources per Base maps in channel 7m.  | ||
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phantaxx
United States201 Posts
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Coramoor
Canada455 Posts
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algue
France1436 Posts
Lets see : -The tempest : i'm pretty sure Zerg will easily deal against it. This is a slow aoe unit. For example the viper will throw his"dark swarm" and corruptors will kill it before it goes out of the dark swarm. Or the viper will pull this expensive unit one by one. -The replicant : Protoss will enjoy this new unit which can morph into an infestor ( camp more ) - Oracle : Useless late game when both army have 2k minerals.The only use I see is with the 2 base timing push => stop the zerg unit production. The zerg units now : The Swarm host : Camp more in addition with your broodlords The viper : Maybe the solution but do you really wanna show this unit when you know that the protoss can get some with his replicant ? If the zerg make some vipers and protoss copy it this mean : Protoss can pull your broodlords/infestors , they can throw some dark swarm on your slow BL ( enjoy the 1 ranged broodlord ) And rush like crazy ! I maybe ( surely ) wrong but I do think it will certainly look like this. Here is the thread talking about the new units and their abilities : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277762 | ||
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
either you 6 gate them or go archon toilet.Theres no other timing to push at all. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On April 02 2012 14:46 HoMM wrote: - Lategame (the zerg allowed you to get to lategame?), broodlord-infestor beats almost any protoss groundbased army --- > Voidray + colossus (+ mothership because why not) deathball I'll talk about this a little bit longer. If you have your perfect protoss deathball (assume 8 colossi 25 voidrays, 123 supply), and the zerg is mid map moving forward to attack you. With proper voidray split fungals are useless, broodlords cant run, and colo does huge damage to whatever ground units they might have. Voidrays build faster than carriers which is a huge advantage, and they have extra damage vs corruptors. Now, there are disadvantages to this build too, but 200/200 voidray colo beats 200/200 broodlord infestor very handily so you just have to decide how to use this knowledge to win games. I can talk about vr+colo in a bit more detail too but this is just the quick short summary of why it's good. Well, that kinda turned out longer than I expected lol. But yeah, share your thoughts on the matchup, I'm interested in how higher league players view the matchup. Assuming the zerg doesn't just sac most of his ground army for broodlord infestor corruptor and doesn't just smash the colossus to pieces and then roots the voids for an absurdly large army of infested terrans. Laser Toss used to be unbreakable because voids had Flux Vanes.... now it does NOT. Laser Toss lost the mobility advantage it used to have. VR collo vs someone who has a brain is fairly difficult to use... ESPECIALLY when talking about the gigantic transition period you're going to need to make 25 Voidrays >.> (Randomly hiding 8 stargates should never actually work...) | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
On April 02 2012 19:10 Coramoor wrote: because zerg can do whatever they want and protoss basically can't punish it anymore, so protoss tries not to die and then hopes the zerg is an idiot with broodlords that balance whine wasn't even remotely disguised and you have no idea what you are saying. zerg can't do whatever they want and can be punished extremely easily. the whole idea here is that its a shit match up for both races. 1 small mistake and you lose to a timing push, get to the late game with the wrong composition you lose terribly. its retarded for both races. not just for protoss. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10656 Posts
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LazinCajun
United States294 Posts
On April 02 2012 14:56 Gamegene wrote: The way TvZ works right now Zerg isn't allowed to have a fast third base, plus MULEs are pretty good I hear. Lately I've seen tons of Z's go for a roach/ling timing attack to take map control and an early 3rd. I'm not really sure where you're getting this from. | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 02 2012 14:13 Canadaehz wrote: Protoss has no way to deal with Brood Lord Infestor late game WITHOUT a Mothership. Same thing with Zerg. Zerg can't beat the protoss deathball without Brood Lord Infestor. Protoss can deal with broodlord/infestor by not engaging it! Blink stalkers can pick off zerg expansions before the immobile zerg army can arrive, while you take additional bases. | ||
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