|
So lately I've been looking at the trends in the PvZ MU and I have to say... of all people to be annoyed at with the way the metagame looks, I am mostly disappointed with Blizzard.
So lets talk basics of PvZ:
The openings are generally FFE vs pool>expand, either side going for the expansion before the safety tech is asking for trouble and risks losing immediately. From there, we move into the 28932839 different 2 base timings from Protoss. Follow that up with the Stephano 3 base roach rush from Zerg, and if all parties have clawed their way to this point, we finally enter a point where more than BO matters.
Now, not to say that everything up to this point is fine, it's all incredibly stupid and frustrating for both sides. One person misses 1 force field or has a queen in the wrong position, and the whole game is just over... done... there is no recovery from a less than perfect fight. Still, I think the biggest problems are in the endgame.
Late game Zerg wants Brood Lords and Infestors sitting on top of 283293829 spine crawlers... maybe a few queens around to transfuse. This is probably the most immobile army composition Zerg could possibly make, but nothing else is viable vs a maxed out Protoss army. Beyond the 20 minute mark, it basically becomes a game of Brood Lords or die. Not that the composition is bad or anything, but it's fucking stupid... You can't even move. What is Zerg supposed to do? Creep up spine crawlers 1 row at a time?
Protoss counters with their own stupidity. A handful of Void rays, a mothership, as many Archons as your gas allows, and fill the rest in with stalkers. Cross your fingers and hope you land a sweet vortex. The entire army depends on a single ability landing on 2/3 of his opponents Brood Lords or he just dies... Just like early game, if everything doesn't go perfectly, there is no recovery, you just die.
I think that covers pretty much the whole match.
Now look at any match involving Terran... There are comebacks... epic comebacks... Terran specifically can hold off a 2 base timing attack, finishing the fight with nothing more than a single SCV, and still manage to pull together a late game win with some hardcore turtling and a couple well-executed drops. There are counters to every single unit on both sides, and counters to those counters. Defenders advantage is a very meaningful thing in TvX, and it shows because a match involving a Terran can be nail-biting at any point, micro is often a game-determining factor, and losing a single unit rarely costs one the entire game.
So... Why is PvZ so shitty?
 
|
Long story short is that, protoss isn't designed well when compared with T and Z. Their economic dynamics do not really allow for comebacks, the units are very fragile in the early'ish game which limits aggression/trading. I think lategame is very bad because broodlord infestor is such a hard army to actually kill without using archon toilet.
I'm actually VERY nervous about hots and the removal of the mothership because I'm having a hard time imaging what I will do against zerg lategame. I hope our new spaceships are REALLY good. But I can't help but cry about how fast fungal/infested terran and corrupters will tear it apart.
Balance whine aside, I think what I mentioned in the first paragraph describes the situation rather well for such a simple way of stating it. The matchup can be interesting, and taking fast 3rds from protoss is slowly beginning to trend, so we will see what come from it. The 5phoenix style is also very cool.
|
This is something I've noticed as well. The MU feels like both sides are trying to out-gimmick (or for lack of a better term, out "cheese") each other. This is on both sides. They are trying for the most economic build. Then the most all-in build.
One of the major problems, from the protoss perspective, is the way the armies relate to each other. More specifically, if you lose your main army with protoss (read gas intensive units) in this match-up you lose the game. You can't trade army units for army units against zerg, you have to do economic damage. This means you can harass with stuff like zealots and warp-prisms, and maybe a few air units, but most of your gas has to be dumped into the big ball of doom. So you get this scenario where protoss is forced to sit on their army and keep building on it, because trading it for something as cheap as roaches and lings is insta-lose. You can't have back and forth scenarios against zerg, because it is a losing proposition for protoss.
This is somewhat true against terran as well, just not as un-forgiving as they often have expensive core units (ghosts, medivacs, vikings) that you can whittle down and really hurt terran as well.
The only zerg units that function like this are brood lords, and to a lesser extent infestors. Everything else is expendable for zerg, so you have to just roll over it with protoss with minimal losses.
|
Protoss has no way to deal with Brood Lord Infestor late game WITHOUT a Mothership. Same thing with Zerg. Zerg can't beat the protoss deathball without Brood Lord Infestor.
|
i personally hold the belief that the mu cannot be fixed without HotS and with the current HotS changes it would not be fixed at all since the core protoss army will be identical (minus mothership carrier...omg is P fucked over) and the Z army will have vipers added in to pull expensive units such as colossi into a wall of spines and brood lords (possibly all of them at once) instant gg granted i have no clue how P could hope to even force Z to do that lategame as without a mothership and carriers there is no hope vs bl infestor spine
basically the P lategame army is so much worse than the Z lategame army that P has to rely on that archon toilet to have a chance...basically when it happens the game ends one way or the other in an instant
yet at the same time the P midgame army is so much better than the Z midgame army which leads to more 2base timings until the stephano drg style roaches come into play and virtually all of these timings are stopped cold (as they should be imo as an allin that is impossible to hold would be very broken) in addition the task of securing a 3rd becomes...difficult to say the least, typically with stephano/drg style roaches P has trouble securing a 3rd while Z comfortably manages to get a 4th and begins teching towards BL/infestor
there is also the muta path and this allows Z total map control while getting those spines into place with an easily expendable force (once all the expansions are up and a fair amount of spines have been made Z no longer needs mutas vP) P at this point has been locked onto a hard fought 3 base economy or a borderline miraculous 4 base economy (well maybe not miraculous but it's still quite difficult especially on maps like antiga) leading once again to this bl/inefestor climax where Z has by far the superior army composition (so long as they spread their BLs and play a slow methodical push style slowly "spooning" or constricting the protoss to death with a vastly superior economy
which leads back to why so many protosses allin vs zerg on 2 (occasionally 3) bases, because they feel that the longer the game goes the more of an advantageous position the zerg gets into
harass and counters stop being a possibility for the P lategame due to the massive walls of spine and spore crawlers and in a direct engagement P has to get a lucky vortex to win (or have carriers with storm support and a LOT of blink stalkers (which will all die due to blinking into infestors/spines/bls)) at which point the zerg just keeps remaxing until the P army dies and then proceeds to overrun the P (granted this may occasionally take more than 1 remax if P has a perfect composition but the time and money are both there to afford this)
as for why the T mu's are so much better
it is because terran units are the best units in the game, from a conceptual standpoint at least, their effectiveness scales with the players ability to micro and better control their units while P relies on spell micro and stupid a-move units like the colossus (i'm a P and i HATE this unit with a burning passion) the limit to how effective spells can be is fairly low compared to the limit of a stimmed marine with godly micro...that is to say someone who is horrible at microing can lay down a decent storm and kill ~4-5 bio units someone who is good could get a few more in that same situation however with terran units someone with bad control will just lose all of their units horribly and someone with good control will win every battle overwhelmingly (or evenly in cases of battles they "should have" lost) this control factor allows for comebacks
also i will say that PvT is the most fun mu i play by far (so is TvP) simply because of the multitask involved with drop harass and multi pronged battles it just feels so nice that there is a mu that relies so heavily on multitask from the protoss point of view (you can make PvZ multitask heavy with muta and multipronged warpins (dual speed prism 3 base 16gate chargelot archon timings ftw xD) but PvT will always need more multitasking mid/lategame unless you're playing against someone like cloud who will never drop you ever)
TL;DR
PvT: this multitask and control makes for much more exciting games to both watch and play
PvZ: with the infestor/BL/spine composition there is no room for multitasking as everything simply dies to spines long before it can do any damage and is just a massive sunk cost as well as the endgame army fight hinges on a single incredibly boring spell
|
I'm a high dia protoss and I've recently gotten very frustrated at the imbalance of PvZ matchup at the pro level, as well as it just being a difficult to play matchup at the lower levels. I actually started playing zerg recently and I actually beat better protosses than myself in ZvP.
Just looked up on sc2gears, im 13-7 in ZvP since 23.03 when I started playing zerg.
So, imo, problems with the matchup for protoss, as well as with potential solutions:
- Very early forge and cannon for static defense: cant pressure the zerg.
> cannon rush? but unreliable, but worth it if you do a good cannon)
> gateway opening? much more risky, but sometimes risks are worth it, and there are many advantages to gateway opening too
- Very predictable: zergs know the timings when you will have units off a FFE and when most all-ins will hit to prepare for it just in time
--- > do unpredictable stuff, 2stargate build which will kill zergs if they dont scout it (but unreliable, and bad if zerg does scout
--- > Solution, gateway opening, because zergs play vs it more rarely or are less bad at abusing it?
- Very hard to get up a 3rd base up against mass roach play
--- > Use well positioned gateways (as 1500hp permanent forcefields) and cannons to fortify defense for your 3rd base (but not always enough vs constant roach spam)
--- > Proxy nexus (wont work vs opponent that has played you before, and potentially gamelosing if scouted) I do think this is a really good option for ladder play on maps that are suitable for it
--- > Blindcountering this style of zerg every game by always getting immortals and lots of forcefields and everything you defend it, knowing that if you get your 3rd base up you will probably have the ability to keep up with anything else the zerg does as well
- Lategame (the zerg allowed you to get to lategame?), broodlord-infestor beats almost any protoss groundbased army
--- > Voidray + colossus (+ mothership because why not) deathball
I'll talk about this a little bit longer. If you have your perfect protoss deathball (assume 8 colossi 25 voidrays, 123 supply), and the zerg is mid map moving forward to attack you. With proper voidray split fungals are useless, broodlords cant run, and colo does huge damage to whatever ground units they might have. Voidrays build faster than carriers which is a huge advantage, and they have extra damage vs corruptors. Now, there are disadvantages to this build too, but 200/200 voidray colo beats 200/200 broodlord infestor very handily so you just have to decide how to use this knowledge to win games.
I can talk about vr+colo in a bit more detail too but this is just the quick short summary of why it's good.
Well, that kinda turned out longer than I expected lol. But yeah, share your thoughts on the matchup, I'm interested in how higher league players view the matchup.
|
Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go!
|
On April 02 2012 14:48 Gamegene wrote:
Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go!
In TvZ the zerg is often a base ahead too, the thing about this is that zerg units tend to be less cost effective too, which should make it a fair game.
|
On April 02 2012 14:54 HoMM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:48 Gamegene wrote:
Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go! In TvZ the zerg is often a base ahead too, the thing about this is that zerg units tend to be less cost effective too, which should make it a fair game.
The way TvZ works right now Zerg isn't allowed to have a fast third base, plus MULEs are pretty good I hear.
|
I'm a Zerg and I hate ZvP/PvZ. It's such an incredibly retarded matchup. At any point in the game, if either side gets the smallest bit behind due to harass, a missed forcefield, a great forcefield, a tiny mismicro or semi-poor positioning, the game instantly ends. There are many situations where a player may even lose due to very, very minimal fault of their own (incredible FF usage or being forced to defend in a small choke, amazing blink micro winning easily vs a larger army). These situations are so hated because one of the two players has almost zero control over how the fight will end. I have never had an amazing Nestea like defense against Protoss as I do occasionally against Terran, nor have I seen Protosses clawing their way back into the game with great harass and defense like I've seen Terran do. I really hate the way the matchup swings back and forth. The very early game is dominated by Zerg, the mid-game through late game Protoss is extremely strong and in the maxed late game, Zerg vs Protoss is a war of imbalanced combinations that devolves into A-moving and waiting for a single Vortex to determine the winner. Garbage. TvZ Feels much more fair throughout the game. The points in the matchup where you feel powerful come more often and are less extreme than in PvZ.
|
On April 02 2012 14:56 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:54 HoMM wrote:On April 02 2012 14:48 Gamegene wrote:
Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go! In TvZ the zerg is often a base ahead too, the thing about this is that zerg units tend to be less cost effective too, which should make it a fair game. The way TvZ works right now Zerg isn't allowed to have a fast third base, plus MULEs are pretty good I hear.
But if you are able to hold on long enough in PvZ and get your own 3rd base, its suddenly 3base vs 3base... or not depending on what the zerg does. I do agree zerg technically always has an economic advantage, but they can't always be ahead on both tech, income, and army size: you can either outmine, outtech or allin him at some point of the game. At current state 2base allins are decided as the best option, which they really are, but it isn't the only option.
|
That immortal 2 base all in is pretty hard to counter... I'm dealing with this thing almost every pvz. So I guess its pretty stupid, when every game looks the same, beacause every other possibility protoss consider as a fail-lose strat.
|
On April 02 2012 15:00 HoMM wrote:
But if you are able to hold on long enough in PvZ and get your own 3rd base, its suddenly 3base vs 3base... or not depending on what the zerg does. I do agree zerg technically always has an economic advantage, but they can't always be ahead on both tech, income, and army size: you can either outmine, outtech or allin him at some point of the game. At current state 2base allins are decided as the best option, which they really are, but it isn't the only option.
The way larvae works, this is very possible since they're just going to have more resources to play with.
|
I just want to say that I find the lack of bias in the OP very unsettling and I don't understand how to react.
|
There is no way to engage in small numbers in the matchup since Zerg has weaker units in general and Protoss have to hang on by a thread until they have 2 bases and tech running. The matchup is too linear and it pans out the same way every game due to the nature of Protoss not being able to trade armies and still be ok. If both sides could have small engagements (don't think this is possible with FF) then it would be a more dynamic matchup. However, Zerg have to either 2 base against FFE or take a 3rd to survive. The same goes for Protoss...you have to FFE or you'll have an economic disadvantage in comparison to a 2 base Zerg.
On the Zerg side, almost every game goes like this right now:
3 hatch, drone until 8 mins, make roaches and lings and try to pressure. If the Protoss goes robo, you back off and tech to mutas or infestors. If they go stargate, you are forced into hydras or infestors...hydras have limited utility and their window of effectiveness is gone as soon as any splash is on the field. Because of this, infestors are logically the next step and almost every game has this transition. Roach, infestor can't live by itself so Zerg spines up and makes sure the Protoss can't attack easily. With spines you tech to broods since ultras are a waste. Essentially on the Zerg side, you have no options if you try to play a macro game. You have to get roaches at t1, you almost get forced into infestors given the state of hydras (again mutas are sometimes an option but that only makes 2 real options). At hive, broods are the only way to go so you know you'll see them every late game. If hydras were a real option via some changes, I think the matchup could change on the Zerg side...Protoss is in a similar position.
From the Protoss perspective:
FFE into either heavy gateways, robo, or stargate. If you choose to 6-8 gate you have to do damage otherwise you'll be behind in tech and economy. Robo is safe and stargate keeps a Zerg on his side of the map for a while. If you go robo, your next tech is up the templar tree one way or another. Stargate, goes robo and then temp tech. In the end still have to have all of the tech buildings in order to take it into the late game. You know what the Zerg is doing so you need to slowly build an army that deals with br/inf. It's really a boring decision considering you know you need archons, colossus, stalkers, and a mothersip. Pick your tech order and go for it.
A Zerg can only attack with mass roach and even then, FF with robo tech to support can stall out a 200 food army of roaches and prevent the Protoss from dying. FF is honestly a crutch for the race which isn't good. In the early/mid game you can't possibly live as Protoss without FF when dealing with roaches. In the late game, the mothership fills the same role and it is all dependent on a good vortex. Archon toilet is the single most broken thing in the game but it's completely necessary given the infestor, broodlord late game composition. This is why you have both sides saying that this matchup is terrible. Protoss needs a way to be able to lose units and still be able to survive. Zerg need some unit diversity that function alright in ZvP. I don't like being forced into roach/ling into broodlord/infestor if I want to play a macro game. The whole game builds up to one moment where the vortex works or doesn't and 20 mins of deathball construction is gone instantly.
tl;dr Zerg lack viable unit compositions in macro games besides the roach/ling into infestor/broodlord style. T2 and T3 options are lacking on the Z side. Protoss can't afford to lose units and still survive. FF is the crutch in the early game and vortex in the late game. The only other options are strong all ins off of 2 bases for each race. You can win in the midgame if you outmacro the other player...mass roach or robo-based balls but the early and midgame have very few options.
|
On April 02 2012 15:24 -Kaiser- wrote:
I just want to say that I find the lack of bias in the OP very unsettling and I don't understand how to react.
+ Show Spoiler +he's probably a terran player sick of watching pvz o:!
|
On April 02 2012 14:10 HardlyNever wrote:
This is something I've noticed as well. The MU feels like both sides are trying to out-gimmick (or for lack of a better term, out "cheese") each other. This is on both sides. They are trying for the most economic build. Then the most all-in build.
One of the major problems, from the protoss perspective, is the way the armies relate to each other. More specifically, if you lose your main army with protoss (read gas intensive units) in this match-up you lose the game. You can't trade army units for army units against zerg, you have to do economic damage. This means you can harass with stuff like zealots and warp-prisms, and maybe a few air units, but most of your gas has to be dumped into the big ball of doom. So you get this scenario where protoss is forced to sit on their army and keep building on it, because trading it for something as cheap as roaches and lings is insta-lose. You can't have back and forth scenarios against zerg, because it is a losing proposition for protoss.
This is somewhat true against terran as well, just not as un-forgiving as they often have expensive core units (ghosts, medivacs, vikings) that you can whittle down and really hurt terran as well.
The only zerg units that function like this are brood lords, and to a lesser extent infestors. Everything else is expendable for zerg, so you have to just roll over it with protoss with minimal losses.
That is not a problem at all. Even in brood war it wasn't possible to trade an army with a zerg and be cool with it. You gotta do more. The point is, until we talk about 20+ minutes mothership broodlord action, protoss army >>>> zerg army. Of course you cannot 'trade' because that would mean you microed your stuff absolutely terribly. The point is, you win against a zerg army, secure another expansion with it, possibly take out one zerg exp, and get out before he rebuilds. This was more or less what it was in broodwar too, and it wasn't a problem there.
However, the problem which OP stated still remains very valid, ZvP is downright BORING. Broodlords are a boring unit. Combine them with mass spines and infestors, and you have a very boring MU. It's stupid to the point where neither side can advance even if they have an advantage, because if zerg attacks with 200/200 brood WITHOUT spines, he will lose the game, so he must wait another 10 minutes to advance with spines and eventually end the game. So stupid
|
Yeah, I'm getting to hate PvZ nowadays and I thought I would never say that. 99% of my games are the standard FFE (P) vs. fast 3 base Zerg. And then Zerg does Stephano-style roach spam and now getting a third is near impossible. Sorta possible on maps like Cloud Kingdom where you can create walls for time but other than that - good luck. And if you get to late game, the entire 20+ minute match rests on whether you got a sick vortex. Yes - you win. No - you lose. I feel I have deja vu in my PvZ nowadays. wtf
|
Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo.
I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo.
|
Everytime i play PvZ and lose, i just smile and think to myself "once they balance this MU"
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
