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So lately I've been looking at the trends in the PvZ MU and I have to say... of all people to be annoyed at with the way the metagame looks, I am mostly disappointed with Blizzard.
So lets talk basics of PvZ:
The openings are generally FFE vs pool>expand, either side going for the expansion before the safety tech is asking for trouble and risks losing immediately. From there, we move into the 28932839 different 2 base timings from Protoss. Follow that up with the Stephano 3 base roach rush from Zerg, and if all parties have clawed their way to this point, we finally enter a point where more than BO matters.
Now, not to say that everything up to this point is fine, it's all incredibly stupid and frustrating for both sides. One person misses 1 force field or has a queen in the wrong position, and the whole game is just over... done... there is no recovery from a less than perfect fight. Still, I think the biggest problems are in the endgame.
Late game Zerg wants Brood Lords and Infestors sitting on top of 283293829 spine crawlers... maybe a few queens around to transfuse. This is probably the most immobile army composition Zerg could possibly make, but nothing else is viable vs a maxed out Protoss army. Beyond the 20 minute mark, it basically becomes a game of Brood Lords or die. Not that the composition is bad or anything, but it's fucking stupid... You can't even move. What is Zerg supposed to do? Creep up spine crawlers 1 row at a time?
Protoss counters with their own stupidity. A handful of Void rays, a mothership, as many Archons as your gas allows, and fill the rest in with stalkers. Cross your fingers and hope you land a sweet vortex. The entire army depends on a single ability landing on 2/3 of his opponents Brood Lords or he just dies... Just like early game, if everything doesn't go perfectly, there is no recovery, you just die.
I think that covers pretty much the whole match.
Now look at any match involving Terran... There are comebacks... epic comebacks... Terran specifically can hold off a 2 base timing attack, finishing the fight with nothing more than a single SCV, and still manage to pull together a late game win with some hardcore turtling and a couple well-executed drops. There are counters to every single unit on both sides, and counters to those counters. Defenders advantage is a very meaningful thing in TvX, and it shows because a match involving a Terran can be nail-biting at any point, micro is often a game-determining factor, and losing a single unit rarely costs one the entire game.
So... Why is PvZ so shitty?
 
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Long story short is that, protoss isn't designed well when compared with T and Z. Their economic dynamics do not really allow for comebacks, the units are very fragile in the early'ish game which limits aggression/trading. I think lategame is very bad because broodlord infestor is such a hard army to actually kill without using archon toilet.
I'm actually VERY nervous about hots and the removal of the mothership because I'm having a hard time imaging what I will do against zerg lategame. I hope our new spaceships are REALLY good. But I can't help but cry about how fast fungal/infested terran and corrupters will tear it apart.
Balance whine aside, I think what I mentioned in the first paragraph describes the situation rather well for such a simple way of stating it. The matchup can be interesting, and taking fast 3rds from protoss is slowly beginning to trend, so we will see what come from it. The 5phoenix style is also very cool.
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This is something I've noticed as well. The MU feels like both sides are trying to out-gimmick (or for lack of a better term, out "cheese") each other. This is on both sides. They are trying for the most economic build. Then the most all-in build.
One of the major problems, from the protoss perspective, is the way the armies relate to each other. More specifically, if you lose your main army with protoss (read gas intensive units) in this match-up you lose the game. You can't trade army units for army units against zerg, you have to do economic damage. This means you can harass with stuff like zealots and warp-prisms, and maybe a few air units, but most of your gas has to be dumped into the big ball of doom. So you get this scenario where protoss is forced to sit on their army and keep building on it, because trading it for something as cheap as roaches and lings is insta-lose. You can't have back and forth scenarios against zerg, because it is a losing proposition for protoss.
This is somewhat true against terran as well, just not as un-forgiving as they often have expensive core units (ghosts, medivacs, vikings) that you can whittle down and really hurt terran as well.
The only zerg units that function like this are brood lords, and to a lesser extent infestors. Everything else is expendable for zerg, so you have to just roll over it with protoss with minimal losses.
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Protoss has no way to deal with Brood Lord Infestor late game WITHOUT a Mothership. Same thing with Zerg. Zerg can't beat the protoss deathball without Brood Lord Infestor.
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i personally hold the belief that the mu cannot be fixed without HotS and with the current HotS changes it would not be fixed at all since the core protoss army will be identical (minus mothership carrier...omg is P fucked over) and the Z army will have vipers added in to pull expensive units such as colossi into a wall of spines and brood lords (possibly all of them at once) instant gg granted i have no clue how P could hope to even force Z to do that lategame as without a mothership and carriers there is no hope vs bl infestor spine
basically the P lategame army is so much worse than the Z lategame army that P has to rely on that archon toilet to have a chance...basically when it happens the game ends one way or the other in an instant
yet at the same time the P midgame army is so much better than the Z midgame army which leads to more 2base timings until the stephano drg style roaches come into play and virtually all of these timings are stopped cold (as they should be imo as an allin that is impossible to hold would be very broken) in addition the task of securing a 3rd becomes...difficult to say the least, typically with stephano/drg style roaches P has trouble securing a 3rd while Z comfortably manages to get a 4th and begins teching towards BL/infestor
there is also the muta path and this allows Z total map control while getting those spines into place with an easily expendable force (once all the expansions are up and a fair amount of spines have been made Z no longer needs mutas vP) P at this point has been locked onto a hard fought 3 base economy or a borderline miraculous 4 base economy (well maybe not miraculous but it's still quite difficult especially on maps like antiga) leading once again to this bl/inefestor climax where Z has by far the superior army composition (so long as they spread their BLs and play a slow methodical push style slowly "spooning" or constricting the protoss to death with a vastly superior economy
which leads back to why so many protosses allin vs zerg on 2 (occasionally 3) bases, because they feel that the longer the game goes the more of an advantageous position the zerg gets into
harass and counters stop being a possibility for the P lategame due to the massive walls of spine and spore crawlers and in a direct engagement P has to get a lucky vortex to win (or have carriers with storm support and a LOT of blink stalkers (which will all die due to blinking into infestors/spines/bls)) at which point the zerg just keeps remaxing until the P army dies and then proceeds to overrun the P (granted this may occasionally take more than 1 remax if P has a perfect composition but the time and money are both there to afford this)
as for why the T mu's are so much better
it is because terran units are the best units in the game, from a conceptual standpoint at least, their effectiveness scales with the players ability to micro and better control their units while P relies on spell micro and stupid a-move units like the colossus (i'm a P and i HATE this unit with a burning passion) the limit to how effective spells can be is fairly low compared to the limit of a stimmed marine with godly micro...that is to say someone who is horrible at microing can lay down a decent storm and kill ~4-5 bio units someone who is good could get a few more in that same situation however with terran units someone with bad control will just lose all of their units horribly and someone with good control will win every battle overwhelmingly (or evenly in cases of battles they "should have" lost) this control factor allows for comebacks
also i will say that PvT is the most fun mu i play by far (so is TvP) simply because of the multitask involved with drop harass and multi pronged battles it just feels so nice that there is a mu that relies so heavily on multitask from the protoss point of view (you can make PvZ multitask heavy with muta and multipronged warpins (dual speed prism 3 base 16gate chargelot archon timings ftw xD) but PvT will always need more multitasking mid/lategame unless you're playing against someone like cloud who will never drop you ever)
TL;DR
PvT: this multitask and control makes for much more exciting games to both watch and play
PvZ: with the infestor/BL/spine composition there is no room for multitasking as everything simply dies to spines long before it can do any damage and is just a massive sunk cost as well as the endgame army fight hinges on a single incredibly boring spell
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I'm a high dia protoss and I've recently gotten very frustrated at the imbalance of PvZ matchup at the pro level, as well as it just being a difficult to play matchup at the lower levels. I actually started playing zerg recently and I actually beat better protosses than myself in ZvP.
Just looked up on sc2gears, im 13-7 in ZvP since 23.03 when I started playing zerg.
So, imo, problems with the matchup for protoss, as well as with potential solutions:
- Very early forge and cannon for static defense: cant pressure the zerg.
> cannon rush? but unreliable, but worth it if you do a good cannon)
> gateway opening? much more risky, but sometimes risks are worth it, and there are many advantages to gateway opening too
- Very predictable: zergs know the timings when you will have units off a FFE and when most all-ins will hit to prepare for it just in time
--- > do unpredictable stuff, 2stargate build which will kill zergs if they dont scout it (but unreliable, and bad if zerg does scout
--- > Solution, gateway opening, because zergs play vs it more rarely or are less bad at abusing it?
- Very hard to get up a 3rd base up against mass roach play
--- > Use well positioned gateways (as 1500hp permanent forcefields) and cannons to fortify defense for your 3rd base (but not always enough vs constant roach spam)
--- > Proxy nexus (wont work vs opponent that has played you before, and potentially gamelosing if scouted) I do think this is a really good option for ladder play on maps that are suitable for it
--- > Blindcountering this style of zerg every game by always getting immortals and lots of forcefields and everything you defend it, knowing that if you get your 3rd base up you will probably have the ability to keep up with anything else the zerg does as well
- Lategame (the zerg allowed you to get to lategame?), broodlord-infestor beats almost any protoss groundbased army
--- > Voidray + colossus (+ mothership because why not) deathball
I'll talk about this a little bit longer. If you have your perfect protoss deathball (assume 8 colossi 25 voidrays, 123 supply), and the zerg is mid map moving forward to attack you. With proper voidray split fungals are useless, broodlords cant run, and colo does huge damage to whatever ground units they might have. Voidrays build faster than carriers which is a huge advantage, and they have extra damage vs corruptors. Now, there are disadvantages to this build too, but 200/200 voidray colo beats 200/200 broodlord infestor very handily so you just have to decide how to use this knowledge to win games.
I can talk about vr+colo in a bit more detail too but this is just the quick short summary of why it's good.
Well, that kinda turned out longer than I expected lol. But yeah, share your thoughts on the matchup, I'm interested in how higher league players view the matchup.
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Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go!
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On April 02 2012 14:48 Gamegene wrote:
Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go!
In TvZ the zerg is often a base ahead too, the thing about this is that zerg units tend to be less cost effective too, which should make it a fair game.
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On April 02 2012 14:54 HoMM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:48 Gamegene wrote:
Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go! In TvZ the zerg is often a base ahead too, the thing about this is that zerg units tend to be less cost effective too, which should make it a fair game.
The way TvZ works right now Zerg isn't allowed to have a fast third base, plus MULEs are pretty good I hear.
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I'm a Zerg and I hate ZvP/PvZ. It's such an incredibly retarded matchup. At any point in the game, if either side gets the smallest bit behind due to harass, a missed forcefield, a great forcefield, a tiny mismicro or semi-poor positioning, the game instantly ends. There are many situations where a player may even lose due to very, very minimal fault of their own (incredible FF usage or being forced to defend in a small choke, amazing blink micro winning easily vs a larger army). These situations are so hated because one of the two players has almost zero control over how the fight will end. I have never had an amazing Nestea like defense against Protoss as I do occasionally against Terran, nor have I seen Protosses clawing their way back into the game with great harass and defense like I've seen Terran do. I really hate the way the matchup swings back and forth. The very early game is dominated by Zerg, the mid-game through late game Protoss is extremely strong and in the maxed late game, Zerg vs Protoss is a war of imbalanced combinations that devolves into A-moving and waiting for a single Vortex to determine the winner. Garbage. TvZ Feels much more fair throughout the game. The points in the matchup where you feel powerful come more often and are less extreme than in PvZ.
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On April 02 2012 14:56 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:54 HoMM wrote:On April 02 2012 14:48 Gamegene wrote:
Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go! In TvZ the zerg is often a base ahead too, the thing about this is that zerg units tend to be less cost effective too, which should make it a fair game. The way TvZ works right now Zerg isn't allowed to have a fast third base, plus MULEs are pretty good I hear.
But if you are able to hold on long enough in PvZ and get your own 3rd base, its suddenly 3base vs 3base... or not depending on what the zerg does. I do agree zerg technically always has an economic advantage, but they can't always be ahead on both tech, income, and army size: you can either outmine, outtech or allin him at some point of the game. At current state 2base allins are decided as the best option, which they really are, but it isn't the only option.
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That immortal 2 base all in is pretty hard to counter... I'm dealing with this thing almost every pvz. So I guess its pretty stupid, when every game looks the same, beacause every other possibility protoss consider as a fail-lose strat.
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On April 02 2012 15:00 HoMM wrote:
But if you are able to hold on long enough in PvZ and get your own 3rd base, its suddenly 3base vs 3base... or not depending on what the zerg does. I do agree zerg technically always has an economic advantage, but they can't always be ahead on both tech, income, and army size: you can either outmine, outtech or allin him at some point of the game. At current state 2base allins are decided as the best option, which they really are, but it isn't the only option.
The way larvae works, this is very possible since they're just going to have more resources to play with.
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I just want to say that I find the lack of bias in the OP very unsettling and I don't understand how to react.
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There is no way to engage in small numbers in the matchup since Zerg has weaker units in general and Protoss have to hang on by a thread until they have 2 bases and tech running. The matchup is too linear and it pans out the same way every game due to the nature of Protoss not being able to trade armies and still be ok. If both sides could have small engagements (don't think this is possible with FF) then it would be a more dynamic matchup. However, Zerg have to either 2 base against FFE or take a 3rd to survive. The same goes for Protoss...you have to FFE or you'll have an economic disadvantage in comparison to a 2 base Zerg.
On the Zerg side, almost every game goes like this right now:
3 hatch, drone until 8 mins, make roaches and lings and try to pressure. If the Protoss goes robo, you back off and tech to mutas or infestors. If they go stargate, you are forced into hydras or infestors...hydras have limited utility and their window of effectiveness is gone as soon as any splash is on the field. Because of this, infestors are logically the next step and almost every game has this transition. Roach, infestor can't live by itself so Zerg spines up and makes sure the Protoss can't attack easily. With spines you tech to broods since ultras are a waste. Essentially on the Zerg side, you have no options if you try to play a macro game. You have to get roaches at t1, you almost get forced into infestors given the state of hydras (again mutas are sometimes an option but that only makes 2 real options). At hive, broods are the only way to go so you know you'll see them every late game. If hydras were a real option via some changes, I think the matchup could change on the Zerg side...Protoss is in a similar position.
From the Protoss perspective:
FFE into either heavy gateways, robo, or stargate. If you choose to 6-8 gate you have to do damage otherwise you'll be behind in tech and economy. Robo is safe and stargate keeps a Zerg on his side of the map for a while. If you go robo, your next tech is up the templar tree one way or another. Stargate, goes robo and then temp tech. In the end still have to have all of the tech buildings in order to take it into the late game. You know what the Zerg is doing so you need to slowly build an army that deals with br/inf. It's really a boring decision considering you know you need archons, colossus, stalkers, and a mothersip. Pick your tech order and go for it.
A Zerg can only attack with mass roach and even then, FF with robo tech to support can stall out a 200 food army of roaches and prevent the Protoss from dying. FF is honestly a crutch for the race which isn't good. In the early/mid game you can't possibly live as Protoss without FF when dealing with roaches. In the late game, the mothership fills the same role and it is all dependent on a good vortex. Archon toilet is the single most broken thing in the game but it's completely necessary given the infestor, broodlord late game composition. This is why you have both sides saying that this matchup is terrible. Protoss needs a way to be able to lose units and still be able to survive. Zerg need some unit diversity that function alright in ZvP. I don't like being forced into roach/ling into broodlord/infestor if I want to play a macro game. The whole game builds up to one moment where the vortex works or doesn't and 20 mins of deathball construction is gone instantly.
tl;dr Zerg lack viable unit compositions in macro games besides the roach/ling into infestor/broodlord style. T2 and T3 options are lacking on the Z side. Protoss can't afford to lose units and still survive. FF is the crutch in the early game and vortex in the late game. The only other options are strong all ins off of 2 bases for each race. You can win in the midgame if you outmacro the other player...mass roach or robo-based balls but the early and midgame have very few options.
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On April 02 2012 15:24 -Kaiser- wrote:
I just want to say that I find the lack of bias in the OP very unsettling and I don't understand how to react.
+ Show Spoiler +he's probably a terran player sick of watching pvz o:!
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On April 02 2012 14:10 HardlyNever wrote:
This is something I've noticed as well. The MU feels like both sides are trying to out-gimmick (or for lack of a better term, out "cheese") each other. This is on both sides. They are trying for the most economic build. Then the most all-in build.
One of the major problems, from the protoss perspective, is the way the armies relate to each other. More specifically, if you lose your main army with protoss (read gas intensive units) in this match-up you lose the game. You can't trade army units for army units against zerg, you have to do economic damage. This means you can harass with stuff like zealots and warp-prisms, and maybe a few air units, but most of your gas has to be dumped into the big ball of doom. So you get this scenario where protoss is forced to sit on their army and keep building on it, because trading it for something as cheap as roaches and lings is insta-lose. You can't have back and forth scenarios against zerg, because it is a losing proposition for protoss.
This is somewhat true against terran as well, just not as un-forgiving as they often have expensive core units (ghosts, medivacs, vikings) that you can whittle down and really hurt terran as well.
The only zerg units that function like this are brood lords, and to a lesser extent infestors. Everything else is expendable for zerg, so you have to just roll over it with protoss with minimal losses.
That is not a problem at all. Even in brood war it wasn't possible to trade an army with a zerg and be cool with it. You gotta do more. The point is, until we talk about 20+ minutes mothership broodlord action, protoss army >>>> zerg army. Of course you cannot 'trade' because that would mean you microed your stuff absolutely terribly. The point is, you win against a zerg army, secure another expansion with it, possibly take out one zerg exp, and get out before he rebuilds. This was more or less what it was in broodwar too, and it wasn't a problem there.
However, the problem which OP stated still remains very valid, ZvP is downright BORING. Broodlords are a boring unit. Combine them with mass spines and infestors, and you have a very boring MU. It's stupid to the point where neither side can advance even if they have an advantage, because if zerg attacks with 200/200 brood WITHOUT spines, he will lose the game, so he must wait another 10 minutes to advance with spines and eventually end the game. So stupid
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Yeah, I'm getting to hate PvZ nowadays and I thought I would never say that. 99% of my games are the standard FFE (P) vs. fast 3 base Zerg. And then Zerg does Stephano-style roach spam and now getting a third is near impossible. Sorta possible on maps like Cloud Kingdom where you can create walls for time but other than that - good luck. And if you get to late game, the entire 20+ minute match rests on whether you got a sick vortex. Yes - you win. No - you lose. I feel I have deja vu in my PvZ nowadays. wtf
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Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo.
I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo.
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Everytime i play PvZ and lose, i just smile and think to myself "once they balance this MU"
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I agree with what most people are saying for sure, not sure what HOTS will do for us TT
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it's such a boring match up.
almost every single pvz is 2 base all-in from toss and the game is over from there, either the zerg gets roll over or toss tries to play from behind
all those 10 mins-ish macro is win/lose within 2 mins of the first few engagements...
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On April 02 2012 15:56 blade55555 wrote:
Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo.
I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo.
OMG this *infinity, having to balance toss around relying on warp and FF really screwed the race up IMO. they get destroyed early game VS anything at all without FF and mid game they get instant aggressive reenforcement, honestly how could you do anything but all in?
Also every time I see zerg building like 7000 spines and slowly creeping across the map, I just think to myself; "really..... this is the 'correct' way to play late game????" it seems pretty fucking retarded.
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I am a shitty zerg player, but every game I play vs toss is really one sided. If I win, I fucking CRUSH him, if he wins, it is the other way around.
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On April 02 2012 15:56 blade55555 wrote:
Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo.
I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo.
I would like to see warpgates and sentries be killed. Warpgates pretty much have lead for gateway units to become weaker(Otherwise it would be extremly inbalanced) and because of that we had to get the sentry. The sentry as a unit is terrible, it makes your opponent feel helpless in battles and as a protoss makes you rely mainly on FFs as your only deciding factor in how the outcome of battle is(I would like to see any sort of micro to be introduced into the protoss composition). As a protoss in late game i cant feel nothing but helpless due to the fact we only have the mothership to battle the blord composition(I miss arbiters -_-). I wish blizzard would see more on how protoss was a successfull race in BW instead of trying to keep sentries and warpgates in the game just so SC2 is not BW
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Due to roaches, creep, forcefields, queens, fungals, and warp-ins, Zerg and Protoss have a very, very small number of actual weak timings to exploit. Any sort of aggression other than an all-out attack is either gimmicky or suicidal, and all of the fun stuff (drop play / speedlots / corsair/reaver / blinkstalkerhitsquadswithmothershiprecall / etc) is either not feasible, or can only comes into play after the 2baseallin/3baseroach shitfest.
PvZ / ZvP feels too easy to lose, and too easy to win.
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On April 02 2012 15:56 blade55555 wrote:
Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo.
I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo.
You're definitely not the only one who feels this way. I've always felt that Warp-In and FF ruin the PvZ matchup and make for really silly games.
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On April 02 2012 15:56 blade55555 wrote:
Honestly I don't think protoss is very well designed. I think warp in really ruins the PvX match up in general as in a close fight pvt/pvz the toss is barely eding out the fight but reinforcements from either would cause an epic hold but then a warp in of 7 units right in front of your base comes and you lose. It's an extreme example, but I feel warp in and FF and how toss needs to have a deathball are the 3 main problems with protoss imo.
I am not even talking about balance imba/up or anything just the way those are designed to me ruin the game. I would kill for toss to get rid of FF/warp in and rebuffed in areas obviously as you can't just remove those and expect toss to be fine. Just my opinion anyway, I feel as long as toss has warp in and has to rely on FF + deathball I don't think PvZ will ever feel entertaining like tvz or zvp in bw and will be a boring match up forever imo.
i have to agree 
Playing vs protoss i always get this shitty feeling, got yourself into bad situation ? Preapre to die and start new match. Is he standing in front of your base near a proxy pylon, no you cant kill his reinforcements... Dynamics are killing me, i can recognise the moment i already lost immedietly (and the game can go on for 5-10 more minutes). In ZvT or ZvZ i can at least conjure something, sometimes. ZvP just gives me the most linear feeling of 1 side winning or losing.
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No one is to blame for this, it's just the way it worked out. If you aren't in GM, fuck it, you aren't that good anyway, try mixing it up by *gasp* using different build orders. I do this because I am also super bored of PvZ as written up in the OP, and *gasp* I have interesting games when I force goofy opening moves and translate into semi-standard midgames.
You could also try playing Fewer Resources per Base maps in channel 7m. 
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I've always hated this about PvZ; TvZ and PvT feel more like a constant struggle to gain an advantage, while PvZ seems like it comes down to a series of checkpoints. Assuming no all in from either side, the game is determined from 1) Does protoss hold 3rd base -> 2) Does zerg get broodlord infestor before being pushed by max protoss army -> 3) Does protoss get mothership and archons before losing everything to brood/infestor. Of course this is not 100% of how the matchup works, but checks like this are far more significant than in the other matchups, and I think that is why it is a somewhat boring matchup. Oh look, protoss has a max army and the greater spire hasn't even started...game over.
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because zerg can do whatever they want and protoss basically can't punish it anymore, so protoss tries not to die and then hopes the zerg is an idiot with broodlords
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Don't worry , the metagame wont change in HOTS but the unit comp certainly will
Lets see :
-The tempest : i'm pretty sure Zerg will easily deal against it. This is a slow aoe unit. For example the viper will throw his"dark swarm" and corruptors will kill it before it goes out of the dark swarm. Or the viper will pull this expensive unit one by one.
-The replicant : Protoss will enjoy this new unit which can morph into an infestor ( camp more )
- Oracle : Useless late game when both army have 2k minerals.The only use I see is with the 2 base timing push => stop the zerg unit production.
The zerg units now :
The Swarm host : Camp more in addition with your broodlords
The viper : Maybe the solution but do you really wanna show this unit when you know that the protoss can get some with his replicant ? If the zerg make some vipers and protoss copy it this mean : Protoss can pull your broodlords/infestors , they can throw some dark swarm on your slow BL ( enjoy the 1 ranged broodlord ) And rush like crazy !
I maybe ( surely ) wrong but I do think it will certainly look like this.
Here is the thread talking about the new units and their abilities : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277762
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as a toss player,i remembered some1 said this to me
either you 6 gate them or go archon toilet.Theres no other timing to push at all.
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On April 02 2012 14:46 HoMM wrote:
- Lategame (the zerg allowed you to get to lategame?), broodlord-infestor beats almost any protoss groundbased army
--- > Voidray + colossus (+ mothership because why not) deathball
I'll talk about this a little bit longer. If you have your perfect protoss deathball (assume 8 colossi 25 voidrays, 123 supply), and the zerg is mid map moving forward to attack you. With proper voidray split fungals are useless, broodlords cant run, and colo does huge damage to whatever ground units they might have. Voidrays build faster than carriers which is a huge advantage, and they have extra damage vs corruptors. Now, there are disadvantages to this build too, but 200/200 voidray colo beats 200/200 broodlord infestor very handily so you just have to decide how to use this knowledge to win games.
I can talk about vr+colo in a bit more detail too but this is just the quick short summary of why it's good.
Well, that kinda turned out longer than I expected lol. But yeah, share your thoughts on the matchup, I'm interested in how higher league players view the matchup.
Assuming the zerg doesn't just sac most of his ground army for broodlord infestor corruptor and doesn't just smash the colossus to pieces and then roots the voids for an absurdly large army of infested terrans.
Laser Toss used to be unbreakable because voids had Flux Vanes.... now it does NOT. Laser Toss lost the mobility advantage it used to have.
VR collo vs someone who has a brain is fairly difficult to use... ESPECIALLY when talking about the gigantic transition period you're going to need to make 25 Voidrays >.> (Randomly hiding 8 stargates should never actually work...)
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On April 02 2012 19:10 Coramoor wrote:
because zerg can do whatever they want and protoss basically can't punish it anymore, so protoss tries not to die and then hopes the zerg is an idiot with broodlords
that balance whine wasn't even remotely disguised and you have no idea what you are saying. zerg can't do whatever they want and can be punished extremely easily.
the whole idea here is that its a shit match up for both races. 1 small mistake and you lose to a timing push, get to the late game with the wrong composition you lose terribly. its retarded for both races. not just for protoss.
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Because you aren't massing stargate units. Mass carriers / pheonix / voidray / and a mothership, and you won't hate PvZ as much anymore once you learn to master the build, don't forget to mass cannons with it. gl 
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On April 02 2012 14:56 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:54 HoMM wrote:On April 02 2012 14:48 Gamegene wrote:
Zerg gets an extra base. You don't.
That's the problem. You're always going to be behind in resources and units. Which is why 2 base timings are the way to go! In TvZ the zerg is often a base ahead too, the thing about this is that zerg units tend to be less cost effective too, which should make it a fair game. The way TvZ works right now Zerg isn't allowed to have a fast third base, plus MULEs are pretty good I hear.
Lately I've seen tons of Z's go for a roach/ling timing attack to take map control and an early 3rd. I'm not really sure where you're getting this from.
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Is it honestly much better in BW? Perhaps it's the AI that's too good and makes it too easy to overwhelm an enemy once he gets behind.
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On April 02 2012 14:13 Canadaehz wrote:
Protoss has no way to deal with Brood Lord Infestor late game WITHOUT a Mothership. Same thing with Zerg. Zerg can't beat the protoss deathball without Brood Lord Infestor.
Protoss can deal with broodlord/infestor by not engaging it! Blink stalkers can pick off zerg expansions before the immobile zerg army can arrive, while you take additional bases.
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On April 02 2012 23:10 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:13 Canadaehz wrote:
Protoss has no way to deal with Brood Lord Infestor late game WITHOUT a Mothership. Same thing with Zerg. Zerg can't beat the protoss deathball without Brood Lord Infestor. Protoss can deal with broodlord/infestor by not engaging it! Blink stalkers can pick off zerg expansions before the immobile zerg army can arrive, while you take additional bases.
This is true...
While Zerg is trying to make their impossibly large spine wall because their whole army can't fucking move, Protoss can stay with a large amount of Stalkers and play the poke game.
This is the same argument I was using when Blizz decided to give Phoenix the range upgrade. Blink stalkers are just like Mutas, only worse because they're actually good units in general in addition to being incredibly fast and annoying. If phoenix need a range upgrade in order to hold off muta harass, roaches need a range upgrade too in order to hold off stalker harass.
I'm waiting, Blizzard...
(Btw, this is not a complaint about Stalkers being OP, its a complaint about the stupidity of the phoenix upgrade.)
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On April 02 2012 15:30 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 15:24 -Kaiser- wrote:
I just want to say that I find the lack of bias in the OP very unsettling and I don't understand how to react. + Show Spoiler +he's probably a terran player sick of watching pvz o:!
As a Terran player, a find PvZ extremely boring most of the times.
Even ZvZ can be more enjoyable now and then.
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On April 02 2012 22:18 GGzerG wrote:Because you aren't massing stargate units. Mass carriers / pheonix / voidray / and a mothership, and you won't hate PvZ as much anymore once you learn to master the build, don't forget to mass cannons with it. gl
Carriers are incredibly good against BL/Infestor and basically everything Zerg once you get them to 2/1 or better... but...
If the match-up revolves around you sitting there behind a wall of cannons (spines) massing carriers (bl/infestor) until you doom-push across the map and hope to win there is something wrong with the match-up. It's like TvP in BW except less exciting.
Don't get me wrong, there have been tons of sick PvZs, but the majority of them are bland/boring 2-base all-ins or "I'm going to camp until I get my deathball LOL" whereas PvT and especially TvZ have MUCH MUCH more action, more comebacks, etc.
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On April 02 2012 15:37 Ahzz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:10 HardlyNever wrote:
This is something I've noticed as well. The MU feels like both sides are trying to out-gimmick (or for lack of a better term, out "cheese") each other. This is on both sides. They are trying for the most economic build. Then the most all-in build.
One of the major problems, from the protoss perspective, is the way the armies relate to each other. More specifically, if you lose your main army with protoss (read gas intensive units) in this match-up you lose the game. You can't trade army units for army units against zerg, you have to do economic damage. This means you can harass with stuff like zealots and warp-prisms, and maybe a few air units, but most of your gas has to be dumped into the big ball of doom. So you get this scenario where protoss is forced to sit on their army and keep building on it, because trading it for something as cheap as roaches and lings is insta-lose. You can't have back and forth scenarios against zerg, because it is a losing proposition for protoss.
This is somewhat true against terran as well, just not as un-forgiving as they often have expensive core units (ghosts, medivacs, vikings) that you can whittle down and really hurt terran as well.
The only zerg units that function like this are brood lords, and to a lesser extent infestors. Everything else is expendable for zerg, so you have to just roll over it with protoss with minimal losses. That is not a problem at all. Even in brood war it wasn't possible to trade an army with a zerg and be cool with it. You gotta do more. The point is, until we talk about 20+ minutes mothership broodlord action, protoss army >>>> zerg army. Of course you cannot 'trade' because that would mean you microed your stuff absolutely terribly. The point is, you win against a zerg army, secure another expansion with it, possibly take out one zerg exp, and get out before he rebuilds. This was more or less what it was in broodwar too, and it wasn't a problem there. However, the problem which OP stated still remains very valid, ZvP is downright BORING. Broodlords are a boring unit. Combine them with mass spines and infestors, and you have a very boring MU. It's stupid to the point where neither side can advance even if they have an advantage, because if zerg attacks with 200/200 brood WITHOUT spines, he will lose the game, so he must wait another 10 minutes to advance with spines and eventually end the game. So stupid
Umm... no. Why the overall concept might be vaguely similar, the way in which these engagements play out is vastly different. There were no forcefields in BW. There was no fungal growth in BW. You could reasonably lose part of your army in BW, while have the rest of it escape.
This isn't really the case in SC2. Most engagements with zerg are all or nothing for both sides. Either the protoss wins with forcefield placement and prevents most of the zerg from escaping, or they lose. Protoss can't escape from zerg at all anymore. Fungal growth and speedlings prevent that sort of thing. While there were speedlings in BW, the overall mobility of a protoss army has decreased relative to speedlings, so you can't get away with anything besides blink stalkers.
So... yes, it is the problem. You can't seriously commit to an attack against zerg with protoss without it being basically "all-in" in SC2.
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On April 02 2012 23:18 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 23:10 TangSC wrote:On April 02 2012 14:13 Canadaehz wrote:
Protoss has no way to deal with Brood Lord Infestor late game WITHOUT a Mothership. Same thing with Zerg. Zerg can't beat the protoss deathball without Brood Lord Infestor. Protoss can deal with broodlord/infestor by not engaging it! Blink stalkers can pick off zerg expansions before the immobile zerg army can arrive, while you take additional bases. This is true... While Zerg is trying to make their impossibly large spine wall because their whole army can't fucking move, Protoss can stay with a large amount of Stalkers and play the poke game. This is the same argument I was using when Blizz decided to give Phoenix the range upgrade. Blink stalkers are just like Mutas, only worse because they're actually good units in general in addition to being incredibly fast and annoying. If phoenix need a range upgrade in order to hold off muta harass, roaches need a range upgrade too in order to hold off stalker harass. I'm waiting, Blizzard... (Btw, this is not a complaint about Stalkers being OP, its a complaint about the stupidity of the phoenix upgrade.)
Or you could use... ya know... fungal growth. It has range 9 and stops things from moving.
If psi storm rooted things, phoenix wouldn't have needed the range upgrade.
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On April 02 2012 23:18 Jermstuddog wrote:
If phoenix need a range upgrade in order to hold off muta harass, roaches need a range upgrade too in order to hold off stalker harass.
I'm waiting, Blizzard...
When roaches cost same as stalkers they may get this upgrade lol
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On April 02 2012 22:17 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:10 Coramoor wrote:
because zerg can do whatever they want and protoss basically can't punish it anymore, so protoss tries not to die and then hopes the zerg is an idiot with broodlords that balance whine wasn't even remotely disguised and you have no idea what you are saying. zerg can't do whatever they want and can be punished extremely easily. the whole idea here is that its a shit match up for both races. 1 small mistake and you lose to a timing push, get to the late game with the wrong composition you lose terribly. its retarded for both races. not just for protoss.
it's not a balance whine, the whole point of that massive thread in the strategy section is that stephano's build is just far too tight for what it is, and while people are still working it out like crazy, almost every aexample of protoss success is either going pure gamble that they are going for a greedy opening or zerg makes a massive mistake, see idra vs feast at the end of that thread
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Personally I enjoy the matchup because of how creative you can be. You can do drops, you HAVE to harrass, which means that as toss you cannot be passive to a point, and in my opinion, thats a good thing. Its really 1 major build, but this branch off makes a fun matchup, that can be frustrating, is possibly the most far reaching and tech oriented MU. PvP is Blink stalks or robo first or maybe phoenix or maybe DT, its just opening up now, but PvZ is now at a huge maturing point where people have set builds and are evolving less and less. The MU in my opinion is completely balanced, but incredibly hard. If either side gives up a little slip in some cases, they can snow ball and create huge gaps. PvP and PvT also have this, though PvP may be even more unforgiving, PvZ is a nice medium that is the most rewarding for creativity.Basically my point is that yes, the early game MU is the same almost every game, but the mid to late game is incredibly varied, SG openings change, Gateway openings vary greatly. Robo and Templar tech i won't even dare to go into because of the hugely varied harrassment options with them (walk ins, sharking, zealot bombs, DT Bombs, Storm drops, Sentry drops, ETC.)
For zerg there are several styles but I (as toss) don't know them inside and out, BUT the stephano style and mass muta, BL infestory combos for late game, and roach massing with hydras. The list goes on.
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I'm zerg, and my vs. Protoss has gotten so much easier lately. It's actually kind of silly how many drones you P's let us make at my rank, really surprises me that I don't have to do anything until 8-9 mins if that... so I've been throwing in hardcore 2 base muta lately. I'm thinking "if they arent touching me at all why not get 20+ mutas at 11-12???". Starting to feel like Protoss has to completely blindside me with something like Stargate or DTs if we're evenly matched.
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I'm a random player and the way zvp goes for me is like this:
I get to grab 3 fast bases and zerg and just have to defend the incoming all in, or if they dont all in i get to max out at 12 or 13 minutes. If I hold the all in i win too.
pvz goes exactly the same. I have to all in the zerg if he gets 3 fast bases, these all ins are really hard for zerg to stop if unscouted, but if I fail the all in I auto lose. Also, if I don't all in I feel I am way too behind macro wise, I used to do stargate openings but now most zergs get a early evo and have spores even without scouting which makes stargate play much less effective. If I don't all in I try to get a mothership on 2-3 bases by 20mins so I don't die to broodlords.
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I'm with blade5555555.
Remove warpgate and FF, and buff gateway units and protoss in other ways.
I have a feeling warpgate was a thing Blizzard tried at the start to see if we'd like it and thought it was cool, and it is cool, but balance-wise it just doesn't seem right. It's too hard to account for defense and protoss aggression with warp-gate in play.
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EPT
