|
One man's attempt to deal with change.
The news is out: Brood War is on the way out as a major competitive endeavor in Korea, its last stronghold. Here you go, and here. The rumors have been flying for ages: Blizzard! KeSPA! OGN! LoL! etc. If everything goes as apparently planned, it looks like the major Brood War leagues will be gone inside a year, with whatever teams remain either switching to SC2 or disbanding entirely.
In the short term, I am not happy about this: I (not entirely an exaggeration) grew up with Brood War and I have not found the same interest in SC2 even if I did just watch the MLG final. And then there are the more personal questions: what will ZerO and Soulkey do? sHy? Will TurN, Flash, Jaedong keep playing?
(I am not particularly concerned with "game quality" or "balance" issues: SC2 still has two planned expansions and trying to predict their effects, let alone future patches, seems irresponsible if not downright silly.)
It is the long view that really disturbs me, though. In the morass of video game competitions, Brood War was the one constant. Even if SC2 develops into a (work with me here) superior game, abandoning Brood War emphatically sets a bad precedent. Not a precedent that wasn't set before, but there would be a finality to this one. Brood War survived its contemporary challenger, Age of Empires II. It survived Blizzard's next competitive RTS, Warcraft III. It survived its own major scandal, at least for a time. It remained the flagship game on MBCGame until that channel went down, and on OGN - well, if it is dying it is dying to a foundering interest and to League of Legends, not a direct competitor.
You want to talk about "Esports"?
No, what we have is "E-Reality TV". "E-Game-show". "E-Next-Big-Thing".
Think about it. We may have many of the same people competing, but what happened to MLG's Halo tournament? Follow the newest game. What is happening in Starcraft? Many of the old players switched over, or will switch over, but the game is changed. If Brood War is let go in Korea, the gaming scene will, completely, be able to claim less continuity in its competition than American Idol, let alone an old standby like Jeopardy.
Thus far, negativity. Let me attempt to counter my point.
First Argument: many sports change their rules over time. Penalties, scoring options, more or less restrictive rules. For instance: American football in 1943 looked like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3kyEFCKfP4
To summarize (or for those unfamiliar with the game): there was more running and less passing back then. "Throwing motion" as we talk about it now was clearly not a big issue. Tackling rules have changed: from 35s to 40s there's a run which continues after the modern game would rule the runner down by contact.
But, American football is one of the most changed sports in the world, to my knowledge - and yet it is still the same game and has been pretty much since the legalization of the forward pass. It is not inconceivable even now that new defensive schemes or changes in rulings could make the game more run-heavy - the college game still is.
So what we get in making an argument by analogy is that these rule changes are only equivalent to new maps, not new games entirely. We are talking, in a transition from BW to SC2, at least the difference between American and Canadian football: the basic ways to win the game are the same, and the generic look and feel is similar, but the game mechanics are significantly different.
I do not think this argument will be sufficient.
Second Argument: Brood War never attained a solid popularity outside of Korea: meanwhile, Starcraft II has secured a significant place in - and been a major factor in the growth of - professional gaming in Europe and the Americas. This has more validity: if you poke around and find TLPD International for Brood War, it only lists 4651 games, total. The Korean index approaches ten times that: even if 10% of the Korean index was cross-listed in international (to account for IEF, WCG, etc.), 90% of databased games were Korean. SC2? The Korean games are approaching 8,000, and the international ones are nearly at 50,000 - this is looking at almost two years now, compared to Brood War's 13. So maybe the precedent is bad, but Starcraft II, if given the proper patching and attention, can stabilize the scene.
I find this hard to argue with, if mainly because it is a hypothetical. It is in fact this argument that gives me the most hope for Starcraft as a continuing game. But on the other hand, if we have two years of Wings of Liberty, followed by a year of Heart of the Swarm, and then four or five years of whatever the Protoss expansion is called... after all of that, what would MLG or GSL or Dreamhack (to name I think the most prestigious tournaments in each major gaming locale, assuming they survive) be inclined to do if Starcraft III came out? (Let alone what Blizzard would push for.) What if in ten years another company makes a fine RTS with whatever the newest in electronic graphics gadgetry is? What then?
The problem with stability in computer gaming is fairly obvious: computers are changing too fast for the games. We have at this point computers that won't run older games. A field of grass is still a field of grass, just like it was five hundred years ago; a "computer" five hundred years ago was a frame with sliding beads on it. Does this mean we are doomed to a continually fluctuating scene? I don't know.
One more consideration is that many of the current popular sports are hardly "old" themselves. The various footballs in any modern form? Hard to claim more than 200 years, if that. Basketball? Barely a century. What will be the most popular sport in 2200? I have no idea. So in one sense I am panicking about nothing - change happens, and it is just the rate of change I find uncomfortable. But in another sense... man, this change is way too fast and not a good thing.
Get off my lawn!
 
|
your first line should read "One old man's attempt to deal with change."
but 5/5
|
E-sports doesnt exist. is just e-games, esports is the word by which gamers try to get accepted by the mainstream media.
|
Maybe, maybe not. electronic gaming as a spectator event is not yet two decades old, three and a bit if you count arcade stuff. We don't have a clue what happens in the future. Could a person watching a line of people get high scores on pacman in an arcade 30 years ago even imagine the MLG we just finished watching? Would he think it's awesome?
So no need to worry, just cause we can't comprehend the state of things 10 years down the road is no reason to panic about it.
|
On March 26 2012 10:43 caradoc wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. electronic gaming as a spectator event is not yet two decades old, three and a bit if you count arcade stuff. We don't have a clue what happens in the future. Could a person watching a line of people get high scores on pacman in an arcade 30 years ago even imagine the MLG we just finished watching? Would he think it's awesome?
So no need to worry, just cause we can't comprehend the state of things 10 years down the road is no reason to panic about it.
I think it's less aboput being afraid of change of the future but rather that too much change and band wagoning legitimizes the "esports" industry.
|
I think if BW goes, "ESPORTS" is gonna basically be advertising for games. For some people that's fine but to me that's not worth watching. I think many of the concerns of games just replacing each other due to graphical enhancements, sequels, etc have been voiced within the first few months of SC2's release tho, so I'm not exact sure what you're doing different with this argument.
I'm not ready to hang Brood War up to dry tho 
|
VGhost! Fellow SC2GGer.. nice blog, but I don't think SC2 will crumble even if BW hangs up its belt. I think it'll strengthen the scene.
|
On March 26 2012 10:48 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 10:43 caradoc wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. electronic gaming as a spectator event is not yet two decades old, three and a bit if you count arcade stuff. We don't have a clue what happens in the future. Could a person watching a line of people get high scores on pacman in an arcade 30 years ago even imagine the MLG we just finished watching? Would he think it's awesome?
So no need to worry, just cause we can't comprehend the state of things 10 years down the road is no reason to panic about it. I think it's less aboput being afraid of change of the future but rather that too much change and band wagoning legitimizes the "esports" industry.
de-legitimizes I think you mean, but yeah, I see that side of it, I think it's kind of true. Is it a factor of attempts to commercialize it? If so, we need to look beyond the veneer of ESPORTS into the substance and people and community beneath it- they aren't the same thing.
We aren't dependent on that slick finish and industry to enjoy what we're passionate about. Sure it helps. But we can't get dependent on it, or start to feel like we are dependent on it... On the other hand I don't like that BW is fading, and I don't know how to reconcile what I just said with that-- the truth is, the bandwagon does bring people, and certain things like tournaments do need those people...
I can only hope that having both SC2 and BW together will have some spillover effect and people who know SC2 will learn about BW, but that might be wishful thinking...
but I think the blog post was about more than just SC2 or BW, in which case I think what I said has some weight.
EDIT: just re-read my post, its vague to the point of being almost incoherent. that's what an erratic sleep schedule will do... goodnight.
|
Hi man pretty interesting write up. 5/5
|
United States10107 Posts
With the fall of BW, i don't think id stay to follow SC2. I'd probs find some big LoL community and follow that, and go here to blog about my memories of BW. The end if unbearable, but it's also inevitable. The day that it dies, I might collapse, shocked, with no1 around to understand what I feel.
|
It remained the flagship game on MBCGame until that channel went down, and on OGN - well, if it is dying it is dying to a foundering interest and to League of Legends, not a direct competitor.
You've answered your own question. Why are games replaced so often?
The answer is that they aren't. If BW wasn't weakening already it wouldn't have been replaced by SC2. If Quake wasn't weakening already it wouldn't have been... etc etc
So why are you complaining? Do you think that there aren't dead sports that no one plays competitively any more? Because there clearly are. Just that the biggest ones are too big to die, at this point. Doesn't mean anything about esports.
It just bothers me that you claim that this is an instance of "the next big thing" when you refute yourself in that quote.
|
I say that this is quiet awkward moment for BW players.
Quiet sad to see..
|
Yea its definitely a weird spot to be in...I don't really know what to think. I think SC2 is a good game, but it just hasn't managed to keep my interest like BW continues to do to this day.
I am also a bit...bothered by the mainsreaminess of some of the big tournaments. Maybe thats a price of success, but I guess i like the niche community feel BW has.
Hard times...
|
I don't think there will be a switch over as in "ok bye bye BW we switch over". As long as there are fans there are going to be sponsors and leagues and money for teams. You are thinking about BW dieing too early - look there is no info at all about BW dieing in the links u gave in the beginning of your OP.
|
BW, dieing since 2002 (random year :D)
|
Blizzard is exceptional about using expansion packs to combat the problem of "shiny new game syndrome".
As long as there are viewers, there is a product to sell to advertisers and there is money to pay winning players. So BW scene combining with SC2 scene can only be good for everyone, except hardcore brood war purists.
But face it, lots of the popularity of BW comes from the star power of the players, and that is transferable to a new game. A lot of the popularity is also the mechanical skill - and for all the shit people talk about SC2's skill ceiling it hasn't been reached, even today with MarineKingPrime showing us a mastery over the terran race, a synergy between micro and macro, we've not seen often if ever. So the mechanical skill (should) transfer over to SC2 as well.
A lot of sky is falling posts about Brood War, but really coming to SC2 is just the natural conclusion and I'm surprised it took this long. The FPS players deal with that sort of transfer all the time, and their esport is doing just fine.
|
It obviously sucks that BW is dying. I don't really understand your E-Game show argument. What's the argument? That the game changed? How's that make it like a gameshow? O_o
Obviously it's different but people are watching LoL a lot so why isn't there the possibility that SC2 could do well? Same (mostly) target audience. Cross advertising the games on OGN can't really be bad for either.
|
I know it is completely different in many respects, but the fighting game "scene", with a few exceptions (e.g. Third Strike), has not secluded itself to a single game for very long at all at any point. They've gone through so many games and remakes and HD remixes and yet the best players consistently place well. Players like Daigo and Jwong - while not as dominating recently - have owned the scene through numerous games over years. These players transcend games because the qualities of a good player are not completely erased when they pick up a new game. The dedication and hard work lives on, and therefore the brand of the player can live through a game change.
I don't know what a falling of such a large pillar for this scene will do, but I do believe, like the fighting game community, it will continue to thrive. Yes, some of the community will leave the scene with the game, specifically those who are exclusionists and do not view the scene beyond a certain game. But new people will join the community with new games. The good players will continue to be good, and our love for the generic "game" - perhaps I should say our love for the scene itself - will allow it to perpetuate through games even if they are inferior to their predecessors. If there's anything the fighting game community as shown, it's that passion can trump anything that seems threatening to this community we love.
edit: hurr durr speeling
|
Definitely a tough time for BW fans. It's pretty depressing to watch, for me anyway. It's like SC2 is the son of a 70's Rock and Roll guitar god, and everyone just shoves a Les Paul in his hands and says "go to town kid, you'll do great, you have your father's genes!' But then this kid just ends up using auto tune and slamming on power chords. Sure, his shit sells well, but so much of the talent and the soul was lost in the process.
Theres so many things I could say about BW. Or SC2. Or e-sports. I could rant on about Activision Blizzard, or LoL, or corporate greed. But every time I touch my fingers to the keyboard they just feel tired. And I just keep watching BW. When it dies, I won't be coming back to TL. And I hate to say it like that, but SC2 just doesn't interest me. I tried to like it, but I can't. It's like spending your life watching Major League Baseball then being told that it's disbanded and all you have left is tee-ball.
Ahh it makes me depressed just thinking about it. RTS games in general are kind of doomed as a sport anyway, I think, unless KeSPA's rumored SC2/BW merger somehow goes "best case scenario" and opens everyones eyes to the magic of BW. Barring that, in a few years SC3 will come out, and the process will start all over again. Kind of a pessimistic attitude to have I guess, but eh... I still hope for the best.
|
What frustrates me the most about the "BW needs to die" crowd is that they don't seem to have any loyalty to SC2. It's what they play and when WC4 comes out, they'll be cheering "SC2 needs to die!" 'cause they play that now instead.
Maybe I just don't get it, but the idea of a game's competitive lifetime lasting just a year (or anything less then near perpetuity) is weird to me. I can never take CoD seriously as an esport, for example.
If they want to watch/play SC2 come ten years from now, then I'll try to respect that they genuinely feel it's a better game to carry us forward. If they just want Flash to play SC2 until they get bored and play WC4/SC3/DotA 2/LoL at a later date, then fuck 'em.
|
I find it sad that sc2 isn't as fun to watch as bw. It's a halfway decent replacement from the perspective of "how fun is this game to play?"
But it fails hard when you measure up how fun it is to watch compared to scbw. It just doesn't have that same spark. Sure, the very best of the best games rival some of bw's, but they are so few and far between.
Blizzard did great making sc2 fun to play. The next two expansions should focus on making it more fun to watch. Otherwise, people will get bored with it too fast.
If we're still watching sc2, roughly as it is right now, in 10 years, I would be absolutely shocked. Watching BW in 10 years? If there's still a pro scene, I could see myself continuing to watch it.
|
On March 26 2012 13:20 Kanil wrote:
What frustrates me the most about the "BW needs to die" crowd is that they don't seem to have any loyalty to SC2. It's what they play and when WC4 comes out, they'll be cheering "SC2 needs to die!" 'cause they play that now instead.
Maybe I just don't get it, but the idea of a game's competitive lifetime lasting just a year (or anything less then near perpetuity) is weird to me. I can never take CoD seriously as an esport, for example.
If they want to watch/play SC2 come ten years from now, then I'll try to respect that they genuinely feel it's a better game to carry us forward. If they just want Flash to play SC2 until they get bored and play WC4/SC3/DotA 2/LoL at a later date, then fuck 'em.
This is exactly how I feel, couldn't have worded it better. But what actually bothers me more than anything in the world right now is how LoL is more popular than sc2 and they are in all the same tournaments pretty much, possible cross polination? You can't even be mad at them though, they just seem to be oblivious to how casual the game actually is. I kind of felt the same way about sc2 in comparison to bw when I came back to the scene around sc2 beta period, but eventually after casually playing sc2 for a year or so I just decided sc2 is the only game that would ever be a worthwhile successor to bw. I'm pretty optimistic that sc2 will increase in popularity over the course of the next 2 expansions, but I know for certain it can always fall back on the fact it can become similar to the niche-like community bw was. I just don't think that it's possible for sc2 to maintain it's current popularity for too long though because of how casual the current/next generation of gamers are, they will just migrate from game to game in perpetually decreasing life cycles.
|
On March 26 2012 13:20 Kanil wrote:
What frustrates me the most about the "BW needs to die" crowd is that they don't seem to have any loyalty to SC2. It's what they play and when WC4 comes out, they'll be cheering "SC2 needs to die!" 'cause they play that now instead.
I saw this somewhere: "'Tis is the age of the casual gamer." I think it makes a lot of sense.
That crowd of people just want to do what's new and more often than not, easy. They have no love for a game, no love for improvement.
BW is ridiculously out of fashion outside Korea, so followers like us are definitely as hell not part of that group, and I'm at least proud of that.
|
Good read.
I have very mixed feelings on the whole thing. I love SC, and I have since I saved up a fistful of crumpled dollar bills to buy it when it came out in 2000. But I didn't do the whole iCCup thing, I just played the shit out of the campaign and had a blast. Every few months I'd find a new game, but I always came back to SC afterwards. However, iIt wasn't until college that I stumbled upon the GOMtv classics, and after watching 3 seasons of that and lurking on TL, I was truly hooked, and that middle school love crush matured. I've spent many, many hours watching our favorite game over the last 6 years. I still have never played BW against a human opponent, and I have no real intention of doing so, but I love watching tip-top level players duke it out. Eventually, along came SC2, and we're all seeing how that's turning out. I enjoy watching it, and do so regularly, and I guess it's sort of neat that it's simple enough that I could be good at it if I put some real effort into it, but that's not really what I want. I don't want the best game ever, I want the best sport ever, and that sport's name is StarCraft.
I don't give two shits about "E-SPORTS", and sort of find the whole thing a bit tacky and forced (sorry, Elly), but I will always love SC. Not "the StarCraft franchise", "StarCraft". I tell myself BW will never really "die", but I know it will eventually dwindle down to just a few empty servers and a few megabytes of sad posts on TL. Will SC2 be doing well then? Will SC3 be doing well? I don't know. I don't know if I care. I'll probably still follow it, whatever SC looks like that far down the line, but I worry it will be just out of habit. It's not all that bad, though. There's plenty of time for SC2 to develop into everything we hoped it would be when the beta was first announced. It's certainly possible that the soul of the game I love will keep jumping from sequel to sequel and rock nerds' socks off for generations to come. But it might not, and that worries me.
|
Korea and Kespa think SC2 is the future, but only the ones who've been playing SC2 seem to realize just how different they are. Just having BW disappear won't be enough to gain the attention of all their fans, and if the top BW players don't do extremely well, it'll fail hard.
|
Is there really that much difference between BW and SC2? I mean, there certainly is a lot of difference to us, now. But so many of the core mechanics are the same... I'm really not sure if the difference will look so great in 40 years, after we've (hypothetically) gone through many more versions and expansions of starcraft.
Also, motorsports has a very similar problem with technology.
(Very nice blog, btw).
|
The difference is huge. It's about as different as WC3 is to SC2. It's not just me who says so, every SC2 pro, when asked about the BW players, say that they'll need a lot of practice because the games are that different. They're different mechanically, strategically, and even in micro. Hell, the only things that are the same are the functions of certain units and the fact that they're RTS games.
|
On March 26 2012 14:47 munchmunch wrote:
Is there really that much difference between BW and SC2? I mean, there certainly is a lot of difference to us, now. But so many of the core mechanics are the same... I'm really not sure if the difference will look so great in 40 years, after we've (hypothetically) gone through many more versions and expansions of starcraft.
Also, motorsports has a very similar problem with technology.
(Very nice blog, btw).
You mention motorsports, well I love watching F1 or WRC, but I don't get how can people have fun watching Nascar. True, the skill set is similar, and the "core mechanics" are the same, but there is still a huge difference from a viewer perspective.
To me, SC2 is as unwatchable as Nascar.
|
On March 26 2012 12:43 Toboe wrote:
I know it is completely different in many respects, but the fighting game "scene", with a few exceptions (e.g. Third Strike), has not secluded itself to a single game for very long at all at any point. They've gone through so many games and remakes and HD remixes and yet the best players consistently place well. Players like Daigo and Jwong - while not as dominating recently - have owned the scene through numerous games over years. These players transcend games because the qualities of a good player are not completely erased when they pick up a new game. The dedication and hard work lives on, and therefore the brand of the player can live through a game change.
I don't know what a falling of such a large pillar for this scene will do, but I do believe, like the fighting game community, it will continue to thrive. Yes, some of the community will leave the scene with the game, specifically those who are exclusionists and do not view the scene beyond a certain game. But new people will join the community with new games. The good players will continue to be good, and our love for the generic "game" - perhaps I should say our love for the scene itself - will allow it to perpetuate through games even if they are inferior to their predecessors. If there's anything the fighting game community as shown, it's that passion can trump anything that seems threatening to this community we love.
edit: hurr durr speeling
actually when I was in Japan, I was surprised how many old fighting games where still played. Ofc the most where like super street fighter 4 or tekken tag 2 but those places werent as full as the street fighter 2 (i guess not very sure) areas. people were actually lining up at the SF2 places, and some were fucking awesome at playing it.
Very similar to BW I could follow the SF2 immedeatly, it was such a clean game where you could nicely see why a player is better. the tekken tag 2 games were often overloaded for my eyes, to much effect that distracts from the players ability.
I played some tekken myself (mostly T3 and TTag, very little SF on a gameboy), but what I saw in Japan was awesome, I stood there for hours just watching them burning money on an old fighting game, true love for a game :D
|
On March 26 2012 14:53 Itsmedudeman wrote:
The difference is huge. It's about as different as WC3 is to SC2. It's not just me who says so, every SC2 pro, when asked about the BW players, say that they'll need a lot of practice because the games are that different. They're different mechanically, strategically, and even in micro. Hell, the only things that are the same are the functions of certain units and the fact that they're RTS games. Yeah, but players---casual or professional---are immersed in the minutia. To take the example from the OP, what would happen if you took a football player from the 1940's to today's game. I don't think it's very far-fetched to imagine him going on about how different the game is. Hell, just listen to sports analysts whenever they talk about a player going moving from college to pro. They always talk about how a player is going to have to change their game, etc.
I'm not claiming that they're interchangeable. And I share the majority opinion of this thread, that BW is more watchable at the moment. But I think there's a chance that in 30 years we're just going to say, "it's all starcraft."
Ed: spelling.
|
I don't think it's fair to compare it like that. Football "evolved" while SC was remade. BW 40 years later and SC2 aren't really comparable. The times are changing also. There's a lot of competition in the market with LoL, MMORPGs, etc. That's the real reason why BW is "dying". It's not so much because people are switching to SC2, but rather, switching to those other games. If they don't like SC2 or have no reason to hold onto the game if their idols aren't at the top, then they'll just end up switching games.
|
On March 26 2012 11:52 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +It remained the flagship game on MBCGame until that channel went down, and on OGN - well, if it is dying it is dying to a foundering interest and to League of Legends, not a direct competitor. You've answered your own question. Why are games replaced so often? The answer is that they aren't. If BW wasn't weakening already it wouldn't have been replaced by SC2. If Quake wasn't weakening already it wouldn't have been... etc etc So why are you complaining? Do you think that there aren't dead sports that no one plays competitively any more? Because there clearly are. Just that the biggest ones are too big to die, at this point. Doesn't mean anything about esports. It just bothers me that you claim that this is an instance of "the next big thing" when you refute yourself in that quote.
Sure, they are. Look there are many reasons why KeSPA had a hard time finding sponsors. The beginning of the end so to speak started with the huge match-fixing scandal and there were a lot of culprits.
Games get replaced all the time because the industry is fickle. Gamers want the latest candy and developers want to push their new releases. What's the new fab? Sports that aren't played anymore is an entirely different story and are no way related to this. There are sports out there that will never end unlike games. That's why we label digital sports esports.
|
On March 26 2012 16:40 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't think it's fair to compare it like that. Football "evolved" while SC was remade. BW 40 years later and SC2 aren't really comparable. The times are changing also. There's a lot of competition in the market with LoL, MMORPGs, etc. That's the real reason why BW is "dying". It's not so much because people are switching to SC2, but rather, switching to those other games. If they don't like SC2 or have no reason to hold onto the game if their idols aren't at the top, then they'll just end up switching games. "Remade" versus "evolved" is an interesting point, but I don't really see how it affects the comparison (feel free to explain).
Most games go through dramatic rule changes at the start of their life. I can't speak to football, but dribbling wasn't part of basketball for the first ten years.
Also, the games are more similar than "both are RTSs"... the basic skeleton is the same in both. If I imagine giving a short description of SC2 or BW to a total beginner, the descriptions would be almost identical. The only differences (the macro mechanics in SC2, etc.) wouldn't be at all significant to a beginner.
On March 26 2012 15:22 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 14:47 munchmunch wrote:
Is there really that much difference between BW and SC2? I mean, there certainly is a lot of difference to us, now. But so many of the core mechanics are the same... I'm really not sure if the difference will look so great in 40 years, after we've (hypothetically) gone through many more versions and expansions of starcraft.
Also, motorsports has a very similar problem with technology.
(Very nice blog, btw). You mention motorsports, well I love watching F1 or WRC, but I don't get how can people have fun watching Nascar. True, the skill set is similar, and the "core mechanics" are the same, but there is still a huge difference from a viewer perspective. To me, SC2 is as unwatchable as Nascar. I think that makes a good argument that SC2 and BW can coexist, if we can get the audiences large enough to support both. Even though Nascar seems pretty dull to the uninitiated, it certainly is in no danger of dying.
|
Not the type of thread to read before bed, this is making me sad 
I'm late into this starcraft game, I'd never even played (sc) until 2010, and I didn't play a single game of bw until late last year. I'd heard of it, but never played... so I can only wonder if much (or most? maybe not most...) of this sadness is the memories of the times playing the game and the times watching. Even I can sense the love bw players have for the game and things like Flash vs JD, Savior, and even things like this. The small, close-nit feeling shows to everyone; I wish I was there, and I have hardly even played this game. But this time gap also makes it hard for me to understand the "I'll be done watching sc when bw is done" idea. Most people would agree the standard level of play is going to increase as time goes on. But it isn't going to be the same type of play as bw. You may be marveling less at the macro, true. But is it not possible to enjoy watching a game well played, just in a different aspect of it? No one (well, no kind person) is asking you to replace bw with sc2 in your gaming "heart". They are just asking you to enjoy a different game. A similar game, but not an identical one.
I still wish I found bw before I did, I feel like I've missed something, and I do know the feeling of enjoying older games over newer ones (though most old ones ARE better). I can't decide if it's worth my semi-limited time to go back and try to get fully into bw's history... especially if the pros switch soon. This makes me sad, yet I am hoping the future can bring the same thing. Maybe it will lose its niche feeling, but that can't be helped.
Long story short, everytime one of these pop up, it makes me sad I can't fully understand it...
|
I'm giving HotS a month or so of viewing to see if it can make itself into a decent game. If not, I'm just leaving TL forever when BW dies. I don't care if Flash, Stork, and all my other favorite players switch, it wouldn't be the same.
All I can say is that if the combined BW/SC2 proleague thing goes through, it is going to be absolutely humiliating for SC2. One game you're watching awesome reaver play, the next game you're watching...collossus wars. It's just gonna make people see SC2 for the inferior game it is.
If BW is burning down then I hope it takes SC2 down with it. Barring massive fundamental changes in HotS, SC2 isn't worthy of the name 'Starcraft'.
|
On March 26 2012 13:49 shucklesors wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 13:20 Kanil wrote:
What frustrates me the most about the "BW needs to die" crowd is that they don't seem to have any loyalty to SC2. It's what they play and when WC4 comes out, they'll be cheering "SC2 needs to die!" 'cause they play that now instead.
I saw this somewhere: "'Tis is the age of the casual gamer." I think it makes a lot of sense. That crowd of people just want to do what's new and more often than not, easy. They have no love for a game, no love for improvement. BW is ridiculously out of fashion outside Korea, so followers like us are definitely as hell not part of that group, and I'm at least proud of that.
This is exactly what's going on. What started with a few people enthusiastic about a certain game has turned into a crowd of people barely interested in gaming, people that won't hesitate a moment to switch to a new game just because it has better graphics. The idea of a certain game dominating the scene for years is outdated and naive now imo.
|
The mayans were right all along
|
On March 26 2012 17:30 Introvert wrote:Not the type of thread to read before bed, this is making me sad I'm late into this starcraft game, I'd never even played (sc) until 2010, and I didn't play a single game of bw until late last year. I'd heard of it, but never played... so I can only wonder if much (or most? maybe not most...) of this sadness is the memories of the times playing the game and the times watching. Even I can sense the love bw players have for the game and things like Flash vs JD, Savior, and even things like this. The small, close-nit feeling shows to everyone; I wish I was there, and I have hardly even played this game. But this time gap also makes it hard for me to understand the "I'll be done watching sc when bw is done" idea. Most people would agree the standard level of play is going to increase as time goes on. But it isn't going to be the same type of play as bw. You may be marveling less at the macro, true. But is it not possible to enjoy watching a game well played, just in a different aspect of it? No one (well, no kind person) is asking you to replace bw with sc2 in your gaming "heart". They are just asking you to enjoy a different game. A similar game, but not an identical one. I still wish I found bw before I did, I feel like I've missed something, and I do know the feeling of enjoying older games over newer ones (though most old ones ARE better). I can't decide if it's worth my semi-limited time to go back and try to get fully into bw's history... especially if the pros switch soon. This makes me sad, yet I am hoping the future can bring the same thing. Maybe it will lose its niche feeling, but that can't be helped. Long story short, everytime one of these pop up, it makes me sad I can't fully understand it...
The parts of sc2 that are dissimilar from scbw are the parts that make it fundamentally less fun to watch. There are almost never any edge-of-your-seat moments, because the units are just generic (immortals lol).
Specifically, the colossus is a piss-poor unit to watch compared to a reaver, which required intense micro with shuttles and could potentially kill 15 workers in 2 seconds.
Then there are spider mines, absent from sc2, which gave no end of intense moments, particularly around mineral fields and when being dragged into their own army.
Banelings are also pretty poor to watch compared to lurkers (specifically hold position lurkers, or lurker pushes with dark swarm), but they also provide epic moments when burrowed and gasp-inducing marine micro, so they're not as bad.
Also, force fields are a ridiculously stupid mechanic to watch.
Protoss just needs to be massively overhauled in an expansion.
|
On March 26 2012 17:07 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 16:40 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't think it's fair to compare it like that. Football "evolved" while SC was remade. BW 40 years later and SC2 aren't really comparable. The times are changing also. There's a lot of competition in the market with LoL, MMORPGs, etc. That's the real reason why BW is "dying". It's not so much because people are switching to SC2, but rather, switching to those other games. If they don't like SC2 or have no reason to hold onto the game if their idols aren't at the top, then they'll just end up switching games. "Remade" versus "evolved" is an interesting point, but I don't really see how it affects the comparison (feel free to explain). Most games go through dramatic rule changes at the start of their life. I can't speak to football, but dribbling wasn't part of basketball for the first ten years. Also, the games are more similar than "both are RTSs"... the basic skeleton is the same in both. If I imagine giving a short description of SC2 or BW to a total beginner, the descriptions would be almost identical. The only differences (the macro mechanics in SC2, etc.) wouldn't be at all significant to a beginner. Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:22 endy wrote:On March 26 2012 14:47 munchmunch wrote:
Is there really that much difference between BW and SC2? I mean, there certainly is a lot of difference to us, now. But so many of the core mechanics are the same... I'm really not sure if the difference will look so great in 40 years, after we've (hypothetically) gone through many more versions and expansions of starcraft.
Also, motorsports has a very similar problem with technology.
(Very nice blog, btw). You mention motorsports, well I love watching F1 or WRC, but I don't get how can people have fun watching Nascar. True, the skill set is similar, and the "core mechanics" are the same, but there is still a huge difference from a viewer perspective. To me, SC2 is as unwatchable as Nascar. I think that makes a good argument that SC2 and BW can coexist, if we can get the audiences large enough to support both. Even though Nascar seems pretty dull to the uninitiated, it certainly is in no danger of dying.
There's more differences in mechanics than just the macro. The micro engagements are much different as well. You control units differently between all races, spellcasting is different, and you move your army differently. There's things like forcefielding, marinesplitting, concaves, that all function a lot differently than they did in BW. Sure, in the end it comes down to you "controlling" your units, but the way you enact those functions isn't so simple. If your micro is good in BW, it doesn't mean you'd necessarily be good at marine splitting or forcefields and vise versa.
That's also my point when it comes down to your comparison. The mechanics in something like football would ultimately be the same, it's just that the strategies and formations have evolved since then. In this case we're talking about a whole different game where the way you perform actions is different as well.
|
That "-" in your title was so unnecessary. o_O
|
On March 26 2012 13:05 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Definitely a tough time for BW fans. It's pretty depressing to watch, for me anyway. It's like SC2 is the son of a 70's Rock and Roll guitar god, and everyone just shoves a Les Paul in his hands and says "go to town kid, you'll do great, you have your father's genes!' But then this kid just ends up using auto tune and slamming on power chords. Sure, his shit sells well, but so much of the talent and the soul was lost in the process.
Theres so many things I could say about BW. Or SC2. Or e-sports. I could rant on about Activision Blizzard, or LoL, or corporate greed. But every time I touch my fingers to the keyboard they just feel tired. And I just keep watching BW. When it dies, I won't be coming back to TL. And I hate to say it like that, but SC2 just doesn't interest me. I tried to like it, but I can't. It's like spending your life watching Major League Baseball then being told that it's disbanded and all you have left is tee-ball.
Ahh it makes me depressed just thinking about it. RTS games in general are kind of doomed as a sport anyway, I think, unless KeSPA's rumored SC2/BW merger somehow goes "best case scenario" and opens everyones eyes to the magic of BW. Barring that, in a few years SC3 will come out, and the process will start all over again. Kind of a pessimistic attitude to have I guess, but eh... I still hope for the best.
Loved this post so I'm quoting it. Oh the comparison in the first paragraph is so awesome!
Okay, so regarding the future of "eSports" and stuff:
I've pretty much had the same arguments when it comes to issues like this, and to this date it remains unchanged.
- You can't throw money into the game and expect it to simply "grow".
- You can't shove competition down people's throats
- SC2 needs an international central governing body, similar to that of KeSPA
I'm fine with people loving different games. Whether it's LoL or SC2 that's becoming the leader in global gaming scene, as long as the fans are there to appreciate and enjoy it, that's all there is to it. Then, when people take it a step further and claim to be eSports - I'd like to disagree, for the time being. Both games have long ways to go to reach the level of cultural importance of SCBW in Korea.
Just look at the LR threads on TL. Or stuff like caster feedback threads, fan clubs, etc. This community is not ready to present itself to the world as a legitimate culture. How many people here actually think twice before posting? We've even had several high-profile individuals who made major mistakes, and even worse, a considerable portion of the community shielding them from criticism. Such mistakes would not be tolerated on national TV. With no central governing body, such mistakes are prone to being repeated.
Imagine you got tickets to a hockey game. I'm going to go with Maple Leafs because they're my home team. They've fallen out of the playoff race (like they did for how many years in a row now?) and the game you're attending has no affect on the playoff picture. Hell, let's also say that it's the last game of the season and the outcome does not impact the future season in any aspect, including draft picks and such. You'd still go to the game and expect a full 60-minute (or longer if overtime) hockey game, full of exciting plays and valiant team effort until the end buzzer is sound. Yes, I'm drawing parallels to the Naniwa case, where I've witnessed maybe half of TL defend his blatantly offensive decision.
Global eSports is going to stay right where the community is at. I've said this multiple times and I'm going to say it again. When there are considerable number of members that act immaturely and defend/endorse such acts, that's where eSports is going to stay in society - as a niche gaming group for the raging, immature kids who wouldn't give a second thought about dropping the N bomb to the opponent.
SCBW in Korea was legitimized by KeSPA, no matter how much you hate their ridiculous rules. We often find that player interviews are bland and cliche, but they don't say anything outright offensive either. They conform with the society and societal values. Then again, before we complain about Korean BW interviews being read out of a book, maybe we should ask more from our NA professional sports professional athletes/coaches other than "the opposing team is a strong team, they've got speed, they're good at the transition game, we need to control the puck, shut them down in the neutral zone, throw pucks to the net, play hard, and grind out every battle on the boards."
I digress. SC2 isn't going to magically evolve into mainstream sports/eSports when companies throw money at it for advertising revenue. The community has to evolve, and there needs to be a central governing body.
|
If the players switch ill probably watch the odd game: still like to see Ret play, even though i dont enjoy SCII half as much as BW. But it wont be the die-hardness it is today, where all the games are watched as fast as humanly possible.
That being said, its going to be interresting to see how HOTS pans out. Maybe it evolves into a truely great spectator sport, just as BW is. I hope so, but i doubt that i will be as interrested regardless of how good it might be. I like being part of an "underground" community, and SCII surely is getting more mainstream by the hour, and all that follows with it.
|
On March 26 2012 10:35 insanet wrote:
E-sports doesnt exist. is just e-games, esports is the word by which gamers try to get accepted by the mainstream media.
Look up sport in the dictionary
Realize you're an idiot
Come back here and try and make up a bullshit excuse
??????????????
Profit
|
I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game.
Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho  .
|
On March 27 2012 03:05 TanKLoveR wrote:I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game. Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho .
The sad thing is, Blizzard thought that everyone would go on the "newer game" bandwagon and just hop onto SC2 right away. They avoided KeSPA (for different reasons) and went to GOM, but that didn't expose SC2 scene to the general public in Korea (only to hardcore fans). In addition to that, people generally agree that SC2 is not a bad game, but its not as fun as BW (and didn't have any cultural impact in Korea whatsoever).
If you shove a game down someone's throat and force them to follow it, there's a high chance that it will fail. Korea and SC2 are such examples. No matter how much money you throw at Korea, OSL and Proleague had much more attendees than GSL/GSTL overall.
|
On March 27 2012 03:09 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:05 TanKLoveR wrote:I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game. Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho . The sad thing is, Blizzard thought that everyone would go on the "newer game" bandwagon and just hop onto SC2 right away. They avoided KeSPA (for different reasons) and went to GOM, but that didn't expose SC2 scene to the general public in Korea (only to hardcore fans). In addition to that, people generally agree that SC2 is not a bad game, but its not as fun as BW (and didn't have any cultural impact in Korea whatsoever). If you shove a game down someone's throat and force them to follow it, there's a high chance that it will fail. Korea and SC2 are such examples. No matter how much money you throw at Korea, OSL and Proleague had much more attendees than GSL/GSTL overall.
Yes that is true, blizz totally screwed that up by not patching things up with Kespa and the Korean leagues, GOM have done a pretty sweet job with the foreign community but I have to wonder if it would have had a better effect if Ongamenet had the rights for SC2. I really wonder if Kespa would be so open towards the foreign community with SC2, they will probably had more success with SC2 in Korea but i wonder if foreigns would have suffered cause that was their focus...
Either way you know, I been watching BW since I knew there was a league like back in 2000 and i always loved boxer and all these big names we became familiar with, it is such an amazing game too is just great and i can see why some BW fans shit on SC2. But i have to wonder.. if SC2 hasnt succeeded in Korea why did LoL? I never played Moba games EVER but ever since the international Dota 2 tournament i found it to be quite fun to watch even if it drags on and i don't get a lot of it, yet i cannot watch LoL T_T it's just not fun for me. I wonder if this is how Koreans feel about SC2 and LoL just doesnt suffer from having to be compared to another game since this might be their first experience with Moba games. I'm pretty sure Ongamenet is showing LoL as well and they have a league so maybe thats all it takes, for a big e-sports channel to show your game for it to be popular. Time will tell what will happen with SC2 i suppose.
|
On March 27 2012 03:48 TanKLoveR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:09 supernovamaniac wrote:On March 27 2012 03:05 TanKLoveR wrote:I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game. Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho . The sad thing is, Blizzard thought that everyone would go on the "newer game" bandwagon and just hop onto SC2 right away. They avoided KeSPA (for different reasons) and went to GOM, but that didn't expose SC2 scene to the general public in Korea (only to hardcore fans). In addition to that, people generally agree that SC2 is not a bad game, but its not as fun as BW (and didn't have any cultural impact in Korea whatsoever). If you shove a game down someone's throat and force them to follow it, there's a high chance that it will fail. Korea and SC2 are such examples. No matter how much money you throw at Korea, OSL and Proleague had much more attendees than GSL/GSTL overall. Yes that is true, blizz totally screwed that up by not patching things up with Kespa and the Korean leagues, GOM have done a pretty sweet job with the foreign community but I have to wonder if it would have had a better effect if Ongamenet had the rights for SC2. I really wonder if Kespa would be so open towards the foreign community with SC2, they will probably had more success with SC2 in Korea but i wonder if foreigns would have suffered cause that was their focus... Either way you know, I been watching BW since I knew there was a league like back in 2000 and i always loved boxer and all these big names we became familiar with, it is such an amazing game too is just great and i can see why some BW fans shit on SC2. But i have to wonder.. if SC2 hasnt succeeded in Korea why did LoL? I never played Moba games EVER but ever since the international Dota 2 tournament i found it to be quite fun to watch even if it drags on and i don't get a lot of it, yet i cannot watch LoL T_T it's just not fun for me. I wonder if this is how Koreans feel about SC2 and LoL just doesnt suffer from having to be compared to another game since this might be their first experience with Moba games. I'm pretty sure Ongamenet is showing LoL as well and they have a league so maybe thats all it takes, for a big e-sports channel to show your game for it to be popular. Time will tell what will happen with SC2 i suppose.
Dota never hit Korea, or has been only played among the hardcores that knew about the game. Riot Korea started advertising LoL a lot right before the Korean server release, and after WCG Finals and everything, people got hooked into it. OGN held an invitational tournament, and that alone drew a LOT more fans than regular Proleague broadcast from what I know (except the big matches in BW). They advertised the game, didn't devote so much into the scene except trying to hold tournaments yet people liked it and started coming to watch all these LoL matches at OGN. Result? LoL The Champions. Though the game was somewhat shoved down, it wasn't as bad as Blizzard's take on eSports. Riot knows how to satisfy their fans... in Korea at least.
|
On March 27 2012 03:53 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:48 TanKLoveR wrote:On March 27 2012 03:09 supernovamaniac wrote:On March 27 2012 03:05 TanKLoveR wrote:I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game. Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho . The sad thing is, Blizzard thought that everyone would go on the "newer game" bandwagon and just hop onto SC2 right away. They avoided KeSPA (for different reasons) and went to GOM, but that didn't expose SC2 scene to the general public in Korea (only to hardcore fans). In addition to that, people generally agree that SC2 is not a bad game, but its not as fun as BW (and didn't have any cultural impact in Korea whatsoever). If you shove a game down someone's throat and force them to follow it, there's a high chance that it will fail. Korea and SC2 are such examples. No matter how much money you throw at Korea, OSL and Proleague had much more attendees than GSL/GSTL overall. Yes that is true, blizz totally screwed that up by not patching things up with Kespa and the Korean leagues, GOM have done a pretty sweet job with the foreign community but I have to wonder if it would have had a better effect if Ongamenet had the rights for SC2. I really wonder if Kespa would be so open towards the foreign community with SC2, they will probably had more success with SC2 in Korea but i wonder if foreigns would have suffered cause that was their focus... Either way you know, I been watching BW since I knew there was a league like back in 2000 and i always loved boxer and all these big names we became familiar with, it is such an amazing game too is just great and i can see why some BW fans shit on SC2. But i have to wonder.. if SC2 hasnt succeeded in Korea why did LoL? I never played Moba games EVER but ever since the international Dota 2 tournament i found it to be quite fun to watch even if it drags on and i don't get a lot of it, yet i cannot watch LoL T_T it's just not fun for me. I wonder if this is how Koreans feel about SC2 and LoL just doesnt suffer from having to be compared to another game since this might be their first experience with Moba games. I'm pretty sure Ongamenet is showing LoL as well and they have a league so maybe thats all it takes, for a big e-sports channel to show your game for it to be popular. Time will tell what will happen with SC2 i suppose. Dota never hit Korea, or has been only played among the hardcores that knew about the game. Riot Korea started advertising LoL a lot right before the Korean server release, and after WCG Finals and everything, people got hooked into it. OGN held an invitational tournament, and that alone drew a LOT more fans than regular Proleague broadcast from what I know (except the big matches in BW). They advertised the game, didn't devote so much into the scene except trying to hold tournaments yet people liked it and started coming to watch all these LoL matches at OGN. Result? LoL The Champions. Though the game was somewhat shoved down, it wasn't as bad as Blizzard's take on eSports. Riot knows how to satisfy their fans... in Korea at least.
Yea even if i don't like their game, I do have to respect Riot for knowing how to promote and support their game the best they can. In comparison with Blizzard they are incredible, I really hope Valve does good for Dota2 as well since i like to watch it and wouldnt mind if the competition and popularity of the game grew once it's released. I like Dota2 mostly cause it seems like a Moba version of Bw , it didn't really make any compromises to appeal to anyone but the same fan base they've had for YEARS and i admire that. That's a lot more than what Blizz is willing to do.
|
As long as there is blood in my veins and breath in my lungs, I will play StarCraft: Broodwar.
|
On March 26 2012 19:34 Hinanawi wrote:
I'm giving HotS a month or so of viewing to see if it can make itself into a decent game. If not, I'm just leaving TL forever when BW dies. I don't care if Flash, Stork, and all my other favorite players switch, it wouldn't be the same.
All I can say is that if the combined BW/SC2 proleague thing goes through, it is going to be absolutely humiliating for SC2. One game you're watching awesome reaver play, the next game you're watching...collossus wars. It's just gonna make people see SC2 for the inferior game it is.
If BW is burning down then I hope it takes SC2 down with it. Barring massive fundamental changes in HotS, SC2 isn't worthy of the name 'Starcraft'.
I think you're being just a teensy bit too negative, but hey, i'm with you >
If HotS is what Blizzard presented to us it's not going to change much. A few new units ain't gonna change core gameplay, core mechanics or any number of the major problem so many have pointed out since the beta.
Maybe I'm completely far off here but what I find funny yet sad is that it seems that everyone in the west is waiting for Korea to show them how it's done. Yes, Broodwar is a damn good template for how professional gaming should be, but since sc2 is not very popular in Korea, why does the west need Korea to show them how to do it?
To me that says a lot about the western scene and how far away it is from being professional, let alone mainstream (which I don't think is ever going to happen. Sorry but Korea was the exception).
Sc2 has a long way before it is anywhere near what Broodwar became and still is in Korea. OGN & HotS is certainly a step in the right direction but I'm highly pessimistic about it's chances.
Sorry if this was off topic but I had to vent a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
