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On March 26 2012 13:05 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Definitely a tough time for BW fans. It's pretty depressing to watch, for me anyway. It's like SC2 is the son of a 70's Rock and Roll guitar god, and everyone just shoves a Les Paul in his hands and says "go to town kid, you'll do great, you have your father's genes!' But then this kid just ends up using auto tune and slamming on power chords. Sure, his shit sells well, but so much of the talent and the soul was lost in the process.
Theres so many things I could say about BW. Or SC2. Or e-sports. I could rant on about Activision Blizzard, or LoL, or corporate greed. But every time I touch my fingers to the keyboard they just feel tired. And I just keep watching BW. When it dies, I won't be coming back to TL. And I hate to say it like that, but SC2 just doesn't interest me. I tried to like it, but I can't. It's like spending your life watching Major League Baseball then being told that it's disbanded and all you have left is tee-ball.
Ahh it makes me depressed just thinking about it. RTS games in general are kind of doomed as a sport anyway, I think, unless KeSPA's rumored SC2/BW merger somehow goes "best case scenario" and opens everyones eyes to the magic of BW. Barring that, in a few years SC3 will come out, and the process will start all over again. Kind of a pessimistic attitude to have I guess, but eh... I still hope for the best.
Loved this post so I'm quoting it. Oh the comparison in the first paragraph is so awesome!
Okay, so regarding the future of "eSports" and stuff:
I've pretty much had the same arguments when it comes to issues like this, and to this date it remains unchanged.
- You can't throw money into the game and expect it to simply "grow".
- You can't shove competition down people's throats
- SC2 needs an international central governing body, similar to that of KeSPA
I'm fine with people loving different games. Whether it's LoL or SC2 that's becoming the leader in global gaming scene, as long as the fans are there to appreciate and enjoy it, that's all there is to it. Then, when people take it a step further and claim to be eSports - I'd like to disagree, for the time being. Both games have long ways to go to reach the level of cultural importance of SCBW in Korea.
Just look at the LR threads on TL. Or stuff like caster feedback threads, fan clubs, etc. This community is not ready to present itself to the world as a legitimate culture. How many people here actually think twice before posting? We've even had several high-profile individuals who made major mistakes, and even worse, a considerable portion of the community shielding them from criticism. Such mistakes would not be tolerated on national TV. With no central governing body, such mistakes are prone to being repeated.
Imagine you got tickets to a hockey game. I'm going to go with Maple Leafs because they're my home team. They've fallen out of the playoff race (like they did for how many years in a row now?) and the game you're attending has no affect on the playoff picture. Hell, let's also say that it's the last game of the season and the outcome does not impact the future season in any aspect, including draft picks and such. You'd still go to the game and expect a full 60-minute (or longer if overtime) hockey game, full of exciting plays and valiant team effort until the end buzzer is sound. Yes, I'm drawing parallels to the Naniwa case, where I've witnessed maybe half of TL defend his blatantly offensive decision.
Global eSports is going to stay right where the community is at. I've said this multiple times and I'm going to say it again. When there are considerable number of members that act immaturely and defend/endorse such acts, that's where eSports is going to stay in society - as a niche gaming group for the raging, immature kids who wouldn't give a second thought about dropping the N bomb to the opponent.
SCBW in Korea was legitimized by KeSPA, no matter how much you hate their ridiculous rules. We often find that player interviews are bland and cliche, but they don't say anything outright offensive either. They conform with the society and societal values. Then again, before we complain about Korean BW interviews being read out of a book, maybe we should ask more from our NA professional sports professional athletes/coaches other than "the opposing team is a strong team, they've got speed, they're good at the transition game, we need to control the puck, shut them down in the neutral zone, throw pucks to the net, play hard, and grind out every battle on the boards."
I digress. SC2 isn't going to magically evolve into mainstream sports/eSports when companies throw money at it for advertising revenue. The community has to evolve, and there needs to be a central governing body.
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If the players switch ill probably watch the odd game: still like to see Ret play, even though i dont enjoy SCII half as much as BW. But it wont be the die-hardness it is today, where all the games are watched as fast as humanly possible.
That being said, its going to be interresting to see how HOTS pans out. Maybe it evolves into a truely great spectator sport, just as BW is. I hope so, but i doubt that i will be as interrested regardless of how good it might be. I like being part of an "underground" community, and SCII surely is getting more mainstream by the hour, and all that follows with it.
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On March 26 2012 10:35 insanet wrote:
E-sports doesnt exist. is just e-games, esports is the word by which gamers try to get accepted by the mainstream media.
Look up sport in the dictionary
Realize you're an idiot
Come back here and try and make up a bullshit excuse
??????????????
Profit
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I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game.
Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho  .
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On March 27 2012 03:05 TanKLoveR wrote:I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game. Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho .
The sad thing is, Blizzard thought that everyone would go on the "newer game" bandwagon and just hop onto SC2 right away. They avoided KeSPA (for different reasons) and went to GOM, but that didn't expose SC2 scene to the general public in Korea (only to hardcore fans). In addition to that, people generally agree that SC2 is not a bad game, but its not as fun as BW (and didn't have any cultural impact in Korea whatsoever).
If you shove a game down someone's throat and force them to follow it, there's a high chance that it will fail. Korea and SC2 are such examples. No matter how much money you throw at Korea, OSL and Proleague had much more attendees than GSL/GSTL overall.
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On March 27 2012 03:09 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:05 TanKLoveR wrote:I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game. Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho . The sad thing is, Blizzard thought that everyone would go on the "newer game" bandwagon and just hop onto SC2 right away. They avoided KeSPA (for different reasons) and went to GOM, but that didn't expose SC2 scene to the general public in Korea (only to hardcore fans). In addition to that, people generally agree that SC2 is not a bad game, but its not as fun as BW (and didn't have any cultural impact in Korea whatsoever). If you shove a game down someone's throat and force them to follow it, there's a high chance that it will fail. Korea and SC2 are such examples. No matter how much money you throw at Korea, OSL and Proleague had much more attendees than GSL/GSTL overall.
Yes that is true, blizz totally screwed that up by not patching things up with Kespa and the Korean leagues, GOM have done a pretty sweet job with the foreign community but I have to wonder if it would have had a better effect if Ongamenet had the rights for SC2. I really wonder if Kespa would be so open towards the foreign community with SC2, they will probably had more success with SC2 in Korea but i wonder if foreigns would have suffered cause that was their focus...
Either way you know, I been watching BW since I knew there was a league like back in 2000 and i always loved boxer and all these big names we became familiar with, it is such an amazing game too is just great and i can see why some BW fans shit on SC2. But i have to wonder.. if SC2 hasnt succeeded in Korea why did LoL? I never played Moba games EVER but ever since the international Dota 2 tournament i found it to be quite fun to watch even if it drags on and i don't get a lot of it, yet i cannot watch LoL T_T it's just not fun for me. I wonder if this is how Koreans feel about SC2 and LoL just doesnt suffer from having to be compared to another game since this might be their first experience with Moba games. I'm pretty sure Ongamenet is showing LoL as well and they have a league so maybe thats all it takes, for a big e-sports channel to show your game for it to be popular. Time will tell what will happen with SC2 i suppose.
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On March 27 2012 03:48 TanKLoveR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:09 supernovamaniac wrote:On March 27 2012 03:05 TanKLoveR wrote:I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game. Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho . The sad thing is, Blizzard thought that everyone would go on the "newer game" bandwagon and just hop onto SC2 right away. They avoided KeSPA (for different reasons) and went to GOM, but that didn't expose SC2 scene to the general public in Korea (only to hardcore fans). In addition to that, people generally agree that SC2 is not a bad game, but its not as fun as BW (and didn't have any cultural impact in Korea whatsoever). If you shove a game down someone's throat and force them to follow it, there's a high chance that it will fail. Korea and SC2 are such examples. No matter how much money you throw at Korea, OSL and Proleague had much more attendees than GSL/GSTL overall. Yes that is true, blizz totally screwed that up by not patching things up with Kespa and the Korean leagues, GOM have done a pretty sweet job with the foreign community but I have to wonder if it would have had a better effect if Ongamenet had the rights for SC2. I really wonder if Kespa would be so open towards the foreign community with SC2, they will probably had more success with SC2 in Korea but i wonder if foreigns would have suffered cause that was their focus... Either way you know, I been watching BW since I knew there was a league like back in 2000 and i always loved boxer and all these big names we became familiar with, it is such an amazing game too is just great and i can see why some BW fans shit on SC2. But i have to wonder.. if SC2 hasnt succeeded in Korea why did LoL? I never played Moba games EVER but ever since the international Dota 2 tournament i found it to be quite fun to watch even if it drags on and i don't get a lot of it, yet i cannot watch LoL T_T it's just not fun for me. I wonder if this is how Koreans feel about SC2 and LoL just doesnt suffer from having to be compared to another game since this might be their first experience with Moba games. I'm pretty sure Ongamenet is showing LoL as well and they have a league so maybe thats all it takes, for a big e-sports channel to show your game for it to be popular. Time will tell what will happen with SC2 i suppose.
Dota never hit Korea, or has been only played among the hardcores that knew about the game. Riot Korea started advertising LoL a lot right before the Korean server release, and after WCG Finals and everything, people got hooked into it. OGN held an invitational tournament, and that alone drew a LOT more fans than regular Proleague broadcast from what I know (except the big matches in BW). They advertised the game, didn't devote so much into the scene except trying to hold tournaments yet people liked it and started coming to watch all these LoL matches at OGN. Result? LoL The Champions. Though the game was somewhat shoved down, it wasn't as bad as Blizzard's take on eSports. Riot knows how to satisfy their fans... in Korea at least.
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On March 27 2012 03:53 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:48 TanKLoveR wrote:On March 27 2012 03:09 supernovamaniac wrote:On March 27 2012 03:05 TanKLoveR wrote:I honestly wished BW didn't have to die to make room for SC2, I been watching more BW than SC2 lately. BW is just SO much better game, so much more epic and strategic, SC2 is always the same 1a2a3a ball of units crap. I will probably skip on Hots and wait to see what Blizz makes for LotV, maybe they will make some actual units for e-sports and not for casuals in hopes of getting more people to buy the game. Either way when BW pro's switch to SC2 the foreign scene will be almost gone and people who just watch to see huk/idra will stop watching and the hype for SC2 will die in the west. I can't wait to see Jaedong play some zerg in the last expansion tho . The sad thing is, Blizzard thought that everyone would go on the "newer game" bandwagon and just hop onto SC2 right away. They avoided KeSPA (for different reasons) and went to GOM, but that didn't expose SC2 scene to the general public in Korea (only to hardcore fans). In addition to that, people generally agree that SC2 is not a bad game, but its not as fun as BW (and didn't have any cultural impact in Korea whatsoever). If you shove a game down someone's throat and force them to follow it, there's a high chance that it will fail. Korea and SC2 are such examples. No matter how much money you throw at Korea, OSL and Proleague had much more attendees than GSL/GSTL overall. Yes that is true, blizz totally screwed that up by not patching things up with Kespa and the Korean leagues, GOM have done a pretty sweet job with the foreign community but I have to wonder if it would have had a better effect if Ongamenet had the rights for SC2. I really wonder if Kespa would be so open towards the foreign community with SC2, they will probably had more success with SC2 in Korea but i wonder if foreigns would have suffered cause that was their focus... Either way you know, I been watching BW since I knew there was a league like back in 2000 and i always loved boxer and all these big names we became familiar with, it is such an amazing game too is just great and i can see why some BW fans shit on SC2. But i have to wonder.. if SC2 hasnt succeeded in Korea why did LoL? I never played Moba games EVER but ever since the international Dota 2 tournament i found it to be quite fun to watch even if it drags on and i don't get a lot of it, yet i cannot watch LoL T_T it's just not fun for me. I wonder if this is how Koreans feel about SC2 and LoL just doesnt suffer from having to be compared to another game since this might be their first experience with Moba games. I'm pretty sure Ongamenet is showing LoL as well and they have a league so maybe thats all it takes, for a big e-sports channel to show your game for it to be popular. Time will tell what will happen with SC2 i suppose. Dota never hit Korea, or has been only played among the hardcores that knew about the game. Riot Korea started advertising LoL a lot right before the Korean server release, and after WCG Finals and everything, people got hooked into it. OGN held an invitational tournament, and that alone drew a LOT more fans than regular Proleague broadcast from what I know (except the big matches in BW). They advertised the game, didn't devote so much into the scene except trying to hold tournaments yet people liked it and started coming to watch all these LoL matches at OGN. Result? LoL The Champions. Though the game was somewhat shoved down, it wasn't as bad as Blizzard's take on eSports. Riot knows how to satisfy their fans... in Korea at least.
Yea even if i don't like their game, I do have to respect Riot for knowing how to promote and support their game the best they can. In comparison with Blizzard they are incredible, I really hope Valve does good for Dota2 as well since i like to watch it and wouldnt mind if the competition and popularity of the game grew once it's released. I like Dota2 mostly cause it seems like a Moba version of Bw  , it didn't really make any compromises to appeal to anyone but the same fan base they've had for YEARS and i admire that. That's a lot more than what Blizz is willing to do.
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As long as there is blood in my veins and breath in my lungs, I will play StarCraft: Broodwar.
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On March 26 2012 19:34 Hinanawi wrote:
I'm giving HotS a month or so of viewing to see if it can make itself into a decent game. If not, I'm just leaving TL forever when BW dies. I don't care if Flash, Stork, and all my other favorite players switch, it wouldn't be the same.
All I can say is that if the combined BW/SC2 proleague thing goes through, it is going to be absolutely humiliating for SC2. One game you're watching awesome reaver play, the next game you're watching...collossus wars. It's just gonna make people see SC2 for the inferior game it is.
If BW is burning down then I hope it takes SC2 down with it. Barring massive fundamental changes in HotS, SC2 isn't worthy of the name 'Starcraft'.
I think you're being just a teensy bit too negative, but hey, i'm with you >
If HotS is what Blizzard presented to us it's not going to change much. A few new units ain't gonna change core gameplay, core mechanics or any number of the major problem so many have pointed out since the beta.
Maybe I'm completely far off here but what I find funny yet sad is that it seems that everyone in the west is waiting for Korea to show them how it's done. Yes, Broodwar is a damn good template for how professional gaming should be, but since sc2 is not very popular in Korea, why does the west need Korea to show them how to do it?
To me that says a lot about the western scene and how far away it is from being professional, let alone mainstream (which I don't think is ever going to happen. Sorry but Korea was the exception).
Sc2 has a long way before it is anywhere near what Broodwar became and still is in Korea. OGN & HotS is certainly a step in the right direction but I'm highly pessimistic about it's chances.
Sorry if this was off topic but I had to vent a bit.
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EPT
