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On March 11 2012 12:08 Djzapz wrote:
Well, my take on this is that Isaac Newton, Einstein and Carl Sagan are the same species as Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Snooki.
Nobody in their right mind would disagree with me when I say that unfortunately, there are more Snookies than Newtons.
Right but I would disagree with the analogy in the first place
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On March 11 2012 12:08 Djzapz wrote:
Well, my take on this is that Isaac Newton, Einstein and Carl Sagan are the same species as Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Snooki.
Nobody in their right mind would disagree with me when I say that unfortunately, there are more Snookies than Newtons.
This is an excellent analogy of Brood War to Starcraft 2.
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I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports.
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On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports.
It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game.
The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer".
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On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer".
It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting.
And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what?
Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low.
''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot.
I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that.
Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM.
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On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:
Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM.
Can't really compare a turn based game vs a 'real time' game.
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On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM.
I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction.
It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit.
LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Now you know how some BW people feel, when a game you deem to be inferior is more popular.
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On March 11 2012 21:37 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:
Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM.
Can't really compare a turn based game vs a 'real time' game.
Can't really compare a 1v1 RTS with a 5v5 MOBA.
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On March 11 2012 22:01 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM. I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction. It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit. LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that.
and yet they have over 200k people tuning in for the finals of a tournament
clearly the game is terrible and everyone watching it is an idiot
good thing day9 added a the manly and balanced game of chess to the AHGL - he could have made a huge mistake adding some garbage terrible game
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SC2 is too hard and complex for most ppl leading to less players and thus less viewers. No esport has cultural & mass market appeal so they have to cater to player base for viewership and SC2 not no where near as large as LoL.
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On March 11 2012 22:36 MiKTeX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 22:01 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM. I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction. It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit. LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that. and yet they have over 200k people tuning in for the finals of a tournament clearly the game is terrible and everyone watching it is an idiot good thing day9 added a the manly and balanced game of chess to the AHGL - he could have made a huge mistake adding some garbage terrible game
A lot of people watch horrible horrible reality tv shows that doesn't make them any good. Simple entertainment for simple people.
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On March 11 2012 22:39 tdt wrote:
SC2 is too hard and complex for most ppl leading to less players and thus less viewers. No esport has cultural & mass market appeal so they have to cater to player base for viewership and SC2 not no where near as large as LoL.
Or maybe people just find LoL to be more entertaining that SC2 for whatever reasons? There are other reasons as to why SC2 has arguably failed in Korea (the Blizzard debacle) but both BW and LoL are more popular than SC2 in Korea right now, and we're talking about probably the culture that has accepted gaming into society more openly than anywhere else.
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It amuses me to no end the SC2 fans that yell and scream about LoL being a noob-friendly game with simplified mechanics then turn around and rage at the BW vets who say thing about SC2. Talk about being hypocritical!
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Why are you so bothered by this? BW Proleague has maybe 2K viewers per stream, maybe....on a good day?
Stop whining. Viewer count doesn't really mean anything as long as you just watch your game as a fan.
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i think i saw LoL peak at around 222k during the IEM finals. This is completely insane. In an indirect way LoL being so popular is actually good for SC2. Its promoting Esports which is good for all of us.
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Does it really matter if sc2 is more complex and more balanced than LoL? APM, balance, complexity, competitiveness or whatever it is doesn't matters. LoL is extremely popular, and a lot of people clearly enjoy it more than sc2 for whatever reasons.You can talk all you want about it but the truth is LoL>>>>>>>sc2 in numbers of player and viewer. Suck it up.
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On March 11 2012 22:01 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM. I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction. It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit. LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that.
SC2, in comparison to chess, is a terrible game and a step in the wrong direction. Learn that. (Goes aswell for LoL, but to a much lesser degree.) See how easy this is? Should we continue coming up with these ''facts'' out of nowhere?
I didn't miss the point, my original issue here was the elitism showed by SC players. And you with your posts just strenghten my point. And by that, I'll point out that you failed to address the most important issue.
You can keep crying how SC2 is harder than LoL, but as long LoL is more entertaining, and thats what I personally (and most people) look for in games, then it deserves to thrive. If you want to play games after difficulty, you are free to do so. (Dunno why you are playing SC2 in that case though.) But by saying that LoL isn't balanced, competitive or generally is a bad game, shows nothing but blind fanboyness and ignorance from you.
Like someone mentioned, and I already touched upon my last post, comparing a MOBA to an RTS like BW/SC2 to begin with is just stupid. You need a different set of skills to excel in both games.
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I saw those numbers for the IEM and that is just crazy, I don't think SC2 could ever get that many viewers lol not by a lot and while it was sad that is reality  . If there is anything that WoW and Zynga have showed us is that there are far more non-gamers than "gamers" and these games are catered to them, Riot completely went in the right direction by aiming their game at them by making it simpler AND FREE. I never really liked LoL mostly because I never played dota so i don't know what's going on lol but that is ok, this game is not aimed to me so i just ignore it.
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What the fuk is going on with all these silly LoL vs SC2 viewer? Its all good. Its Esport. Why people alway want to be elite?
Why do you need to emphasize the game you play is harder than others?
Its like you are a soccer fan and tell a tennis fan to fuk off because, tennis is just a silly game with 2 people smashing their rackets into a small ball. Diffence games, difference skills. Thats it.
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EPT
