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Edit: I hate to bump, but I see IPL with 5k viewers, and TotalBiscuits monobattle thing with 25k Viewers. I opened my LoL client and could not find a stream for IPL. Based on your responses, IPL should have way more.
When I see for IEM that there is 120k viewers for League, and 30k for Starcraft, it sort of bothers me.
I know that the viewer count is massively inflated by having it in the client of League, but what is going on?
Every friend I have who plays League does not watch competition because it is boring to watch or they would rather play.
Yet every Starcraft player from bronze to grandmaster seems to know and care about our pro scene and we pull in 30k viewers.
Doesn't it feel like cheating by Riot to have the stream in the client? Because it feels to me that one would log in, go AFK and the viewer count is filled with non-viewers.
Or I could be completely full of crap and my friends who play League (ranging from casual to mega tryhard again) are just part of a minority in League.
 
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United Kingdom38150 Posts
Stream doesn't start from the client unless you choose to open it.
LoL is just massively popular, that's all there is to it.
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the games free and its easy to understand and play
therefore, alot more people are interested in it
SC2 is expensive, and you have to be good to play it, at least once you get into at least gold/plat
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LoL has a much higher user count than SC2
Doesn't it feel like cheating by Riot to have the stream in the client? Because it feels to me that one would log in, go AFK and the viewer count is filled with non-viewers.
Riot does a much better job than Blizzard promoting its game as an e-sport to its user base
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LoL has a way bigger player base than sc2 - literally four times as big. Further more, not every starcraft player cares about the pro scene at all. sc2ranks says there are 800k players active this league but the most that tune in for even a major event doesn't peak anywhere near that.
Also, you still have to open the stream. It's not as simple as if you start the game you start the stream.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Alot more people play LoL then SC2, thats it basically, also the stream is NOT embedded in the Client, its at the startup of the client as a suggestion, if you click it then it will open.
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Because SC2 is not Brood War and it sucks and Blizzard hasn't done much to help the scene now have they? In fact one could say they are ruining the scene by requiring money to host a bigger tournament and having a crap Bnet 0.2 system!
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you seem mad cuz sc2 is not #1.
sc2 is still a great game.
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On March 08 2012 01:16 LayZRR wrote:
you seem mad cuz sc2 is not #1.
sc2 is still a great game.
So is League of Legends, yet a lot of people get mad at it for no reason, right here on this site. C'est la vie.
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Simply put, it all depends on how many people actively play a game (especially in terms of its core game mode, as in 1v1 multiplayer in SC2).
I myself stopped playing a few months ago, and I kept watching tournaments for some time, then less and less by the month, and now I'm not even watching IEM, just keeping an eye on results. It's just a natural process, without a direct connection with the game, it's much easier to lose interest in e-sports as well over time.
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That does seem odd, as I don't know anybody that watches or follows LoL either, the only thing I can think is that it might be different in Asia, (LoL is very popular in Asia right?) where perhaps they do follow the pro scene and obviously there are a tonne of people.
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Just for the record:
The LoL client does not count everyone that logs into the client as a viewer. There is simply a link that can be clicked. If you click on the link it takes you to the stream. As long as you watch the stream, you are counted as a viewer.
Peak numbers for LoL are something like 200-250k people. Average numbers are 120k for any client-supported tournament.
That is just smart promotion.
There is really no reason for Blizz not to do the same. Well, there is one reason. They don't actually give a shit about the pro-scene and building it into the client takes work. More work than you want to put in for something you don't give a shit about.
Riot supports their pro-scene more and they have more players. That is why they are winning by miles.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 08 2012 01:18 Myrddraal wrote:
That does seem odd, as I don't know anybody that watches or follows LoL either, the only thing I can think is that it might be different in Asia, (LoL is very popular in Asia right?) where perhaps they do follow the pro scene and obviously there are a tonne of people.
LoL is fairly decently popular in Asia, but Dota I believe is more popular then LoL there.
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On March 08 2012 01:20 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 01:18 Myrddraal wrote:
That does seem odd, as I don't know anybody that watches or follows LoL either, the only thing I can think is that it might be different in Asia, (LoL is very popular in Asia right?) where perhaps they do follow the pro scene and obviously there are a tonne of people. LoL is fairly decently popular in Asia, but Dota I believe is more popular then LoL there.
I would like to add this, is that I hear that in China LoL is very popular in PC cafes'. If you think about it, China has one of the largest E-sport scenes out there (maybe bigger than Korea). Also a lot of my friends who are bad at sc2 1v1 go to teams games in sc2 then over time look at LoL for the Team aspects due to the fact of less stress and being group actives are more fun.
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Yeah, it's pretty much that Blizzard are disgustingly bad at promoting the game, and caring for it's community and growth compared to Riot. LoL is, as has also been said free to play, easy to play, and fun to play, even when you're bad.
But then take a look at the live audiences. As far as I know, the live SC2 audience has thrashed the LoL audience for at least every MLG up until now
I think the SC2 fans are in general a lot more dedicated, and that most LoL viewers are just people that casually click the link, then casually watch, and casually stop if there is ever a need to pay.
My view on Riot and LoL is probably a little biased to SC2, but I don't think I'm too far off
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People watch LoL because people play LoL. And I don't have to explain to you why lots of people play it.
StarCraft 2 on the other hand has lots of viewers who don't play, because it's an actual fun spectator sport. LoL is only fun to look at if you're a player.
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Why do more people watch Jersey Shore than an Attenborough documentary?
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Me neither, but then again I'm not sure if I understand the viewer count for sc2 either.
Or bw, but for the opposite reason.
e. My flatmate brings all the loot to a trader in Skyrim/KoA, even when there is nothing left to buy in the game.
Might have something to do with this phenomenon.
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What exactly has blizzard done to promote their game to the casuals? This system forces you to queue LADDER games that demoralize people from playing further. How many people have tried this game for a few months and quit for LoL? There is basically no casual base for SC2 whereas if you compare to LoL, the 5v5 format can be played without the ladder system. Go on SC2 front page and look at what you see. Starcraft Art of War, Upcoming Tournaments, Actor Cheats, Starcraft Master (WTF?), Season 7 Map Pool. And that is only in the home page, which most of the time is ignored by the players. You log into the multiplayer page and all you ever see is your meaningless ladder ranking and the queue ladder buttons. Now check out LoL; more than 70% of the front page (where you do your queueing for games) is the IEM tournament with the view stream button (in fact, anywhere you click around the front page would link you to the stream. And just so EVERYONE IS CLEAR, the LoL viewers only take into account of people who actually clicked on the stream link, not just logging into the client (which trust me if they do that count, the stream number would be alot higher). If we want a dedicated fanbase, then look at BW and see how thats doing. This game is not going to grow by tastosis/day9/whoever providing exciting commentary because the only way the game grows is by a CASUAL fanbase with few that move into the competitive scene, and Blizzard has done nothing to promote this casual fanbase. Quite the opposite, they have developed a system that deters players from playing their ladder and, eventually, their game.
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On March 08 2012 01:37 theBALLS wrote:
Why do more people watch Jersey Shore than an Attenborough documentary?
I get your point, I guess, but are you really comparing Starcraft to educational documentaries?
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LoL is free, so for them to gain profit, they need interest in it.
Blizzard "gained" profit when you bought the game, now it will reduce "costs" if you stop playing it so they can lower their server numbers or migrate them to something that gives profit (WoW comes to mind).
Its a different way to make money.
In the last year i almost totally moved to free to play games. It just does not seem interesting to buy games that seem to be made for you to get bored of them soon.
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On March 08 2012 01:02 Thaniri wrote:
When I see for IEM that there is 120k viewers for League, and 30k for Starcraft, it sort of bothers me.
I know that the viewer count is massively inflated by having it in the client of League, but what is going on?
Every friend I have who plays League does not watch competition because it is boring to watch or they would rather play.
Yet every Starcraft player from bronze to grandmaster seems to know and care about our pro scene and we pull in 30k viewers.
Doesn't it feel like cheating by Riot to have the stream in the client? Because it feels to me that one would log in, go AFK and the viewer count is filled with non-viewers.
Or I could be completely full of crap and my friends who play League (ranging from casual to mega tryhard again) are just part of a minority in League.
It's simple, fun, free, easy to watch. Chess is much more unpopular than sports likes soccer or basketball.
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Personally I don't even understand why everyone here wants casuals and big stream numbers. Yeah, I guess it's nice to have a lot of competitions but then again to many people a niche hobby (such as bw) seems somehow less socially acceptable.
Well maybe the elitists and hardcore people have truly become a minority on TeamLiquid in the past few years.
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On March 08 2012 01:48 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 01:37 theBALLS wrote:
Why do more people watch Jersey Shore than an Attenborough documentary? I get your point, I guess, but are you really comparing Starcraft to educational documentaries?
ok maybe Glee vs Breaking Bad would be a better comparison, but the point is, not many people are able to appreciate more intellectually stimulating entertainment.
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the simple fact is that LoL is a noob friendly game and there are more noobs in the world than non noobs
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Contrary to popular belief on this site, starcraft is not really THAT popular. Sure, everyone knows about it, but I don't know anyone personally who plays or is interested in it anymore (myself included) and regularly follows tourneys, streams etc.
Just look at what numbers fighting games pull and they are considered niche and its pretty much only north america playing them (or at least watching the streams)
With HotS that will probably change for a while and everyone will pick up the game again for a few months.
LoL on the other hand is a casual game almost everyone plays or has played at some point. It's just natural that it has more viewers. You watch what you can relate to.
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LoL is the most played game in the world, it's bound to have more viewers.
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There are also much fewer high level lol tourneys than SC2 tourneys. SC2 events would much more likely have high numbers as well if there events were much more infrequent.
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Canada13386 Posts
On March 08 2012 01:17 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 01:16 LayZRR wrote:
you seem mad cuz sc2 is not #1.
sc2 is still a great game. So is League of Legends, yet a lot of people get mad at it for no reason, right here on this site. C'est la vie.
I don't get mad at it for no reason. I dislike the terrible community at the lower levels for people who are trying to get into the game. Its very difficult to feel like you are improving as well when no matter how well you try to play the individuals who grief the game and feed the enemy make the game much less enjoyable.
I know I need to find people to play with but its difficult and thats why I don't really enjoy LoL anywhere near as much as SC2. Even when I was in practice league and bronze I always felt like people were able to be nice and offer help more often than not. I could improve myself and see the fruits of my labour but this is not the case in LoL when others basically ruin the experience. Unfortunately for me its the community in game that made it bothersome.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Riot's a very smart company and does a lot of work to help esports. I kind of wish Blizzard took a few pages out of riot's book in that regard (in-client stream, promotion of esports events, major tourneys, etc) because it would be really awesome. I have respect for a company that supports esports.
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+ Show Spoiler +Are you kidding me?
Same shit can be said about SC2. I find it boring to play and to watch, yet that miserable game has more stream viewers than BW.
In my eyes the SC2-BW relationship is equivalent to Dota-LoL: one is original, everybody agrees that is harder and requires larger amount of skill. The other is just a simplified copy (that tries so hard in the wrong way to not be the same), that appeals to the masses and has newer shinier graphics and was made looking to profit on the previous title.
Happens that people like different things, some like a game more than others, and apparently more people would rather play and watch LoL than SC2. Deal with it man...
Ah, LoL is also free, that helps a lot.
Noob-friendly version: More people prefer LoL over SC2, even if in your individual opinion SC2 deserves more viewers. Deal with it.
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wow, BW people are again raging about SC2... The question was about LoL and some people have nothing better to do than shit on SC2 -.-
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I trashed on SC2 the same way he trashed LoL to show him that individual opinion doesn't matter.
Was it hard to understand? I can simplify the previous post to make it more noob-friendly.
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No, noone said LoL sucks. People just said they find it boring. And especially OP said nothing bad about LoL, he just said his friends stopped because it was boring to watch. But this is something else:
On March 08 2012 01:14 IronMan3 wrote:
Because SC2 is not Brood War and it sucks
And your tone is not appreciated either. Noone was offensive before u started it
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thats like asking in LoL forums doesnt it feel weird that theres viewers who watch starcraft
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LoL's got that casual community going for it. For StarCraft II you see a lot of hard core players, more so than most other games, but ultimately there aren't as many hardcore gamers as casual gamers in the world.
That, and... well, it was just IEM, right? If I'm not mistaken that's pretty much the biggest event there is for LoL, but if you compared those numbers to OUR biggest even (Code S) then I'd bet it'd be a lot closer.
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On March 08 2012 01:02 Thaniri wrote:
When I see for IEM that there is 120k viewers for League, and 30k for Starcraft, it sort of bothers me.
I know that the viewer count is massively inflated by having it in the client of League, but what is going on?
Every friend I have who plays League does not watch competition because it is boring to watch or they would rather play.
Yet every Starcraft player from bronze to grandmaster seems to know and care about our pro scene and we pull in 30k viewers.
Doesn't it feel like cheating by Riot to have the stream in the client? Because it feels to me that one would log in, go AFK and the viewer count is filled with non-viewers.
Or I could be completely full of crap and my friends who play League (ranging from casual to mega tryhard again) are just part of a minority in League.
You imagine some sort of SC2 eSport audience volume dominance which doesn't exist.
What I bolded is absolutely untrue.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 08 2012 03:34 taitanik wrote:
thats like asking in LoL forums doesnt it feel weird that theres viewers who watch starcraft
I can't speak for everyone here but I think there are plenty of us who are fans of both-- I think we have a big LoL community here on TL, and if you stop by the teamspeak you'll see people playing. Both are quite fun games :D
I would like to see blizzard support esports like riot does-- that would be great.
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Easy. Riot is interested in growing a customer base and pleasing fans. Blizzard is interested in making money.
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All the LoL hate around here is funny, LoL is to Sc2 what SC2 is to BW.
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On March 08 2012 04:39 Megaliskuu wrote:
All the LoL hate around here is funny, LoL is to Sc2 what SC2 is to BW.
The child has become the father of the new child?? And we call this life my friends lolol
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On March 08 2012 04:41 cmen15 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 04:39 Megaliskuu wrote:
All the LoL hate around here is funny, LoL is to Sc2 what SC2 is to BW. The child has become the father of the new child?? And we call this life my friends lolol
I'm installing LoL as I type this post!
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They are still just video games, enjoy the diversity instead of being negative.
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LoL is massively more popular than sc2. It's the unfortunate truth. SC2 is at maybe 5% of its release population at this point, thanks to blizzard's skilled promotion team.
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On March 08 2012 04:53 Fission wrote:
LoL is massively more popular than sc2. It's the unfortunate truth. SC2 is at maybe 5% of its release population at this point, thanks to blizzard's skilled promotion team.
5% is a bit harsh tbh, although the general point is true.
Also, Blizzard is skilled enough and they're accomplishing what they want. Unfortunately, they don't give a shit and don't work on what we want. 
Hardcore audiences are the easiest audiences to abuse/exploit, unfortunately.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 08 2012 04:54 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 04:53 Fission wrote:
LoL is massively more popular than sc2. It's the unfortunate truth. SC2 is at maybe 5% of its release population at this point, thanks to blizzard's skilled promotion team. 5% is a bit harsh tbh, although the general point is true. Also, Blizzard is skilled enough and they're accomplishing what they want. Unfortunately, they don't give a shit and don't work on what we want. Hardcore audiences are the easiest audiences to abuse/exploit, unfortunately.
It's also worth noting that Riot uses a different business model-- they WANT people to keep playing, since actually getting LoL doesn't cost money, it's buying new characters and stuff. Blizzard doesn't really make money from people playing Sc2, just from people buying it. I believe they make some money from tournaments, though, so it would be in their best interests to promote tournaments a bit better.
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StarCraft 1's huge success in Korea can't be attributed in any positive way to Blizzards efforts. It was made big by Koreans, Kespa etc. So, Blizzard never actually did anything right. Brood War was a lucky punch, and the Koreans took it from there. Now that Blizzard has more of its paws on SC2, we can see how 'great' it's doing, both in developing and balancing the game, and growing it as an e-sport. They're a team of mediocrity, with some passion for games.
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To me, the commentators for SC2 are just a lot worse compared to the other games at IEM, and the quality of matches aren't high enough atm to overlook the problem and watch the SC2 stream.
No reason to watch SC2 when you can watch CS and listen to motherfucking Paul Chaloner.
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I understand that bazillions of people play LoL and that's why they have so many views. I don't understand why those people are watching LoL, though.
I play LoL with friends sometimes, but I would never watch a stream of it. Hell, I wouldn't even play it to begin with if my friends didn't. I don't see the appeal.
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LOL is free and therefor gets a huge playerbase, 30 million accounts to be exact according to wikipedia. Compare that to the 120k people that viewed it's strange that they don't get more viewers, in fact I would say they get a incredible low viewer count if you look at how many users they have.
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League of Legends is
1. Actively supported by it's developer.
2. Free.
3. Easy.
4. You can level up and get points.
Sc2 is
1. Actively supported by it's developer? Eh, that's debatable. More like there will be a new game to buy sometime in the future that may or may not have improved features.
2. Not free. Need a name change? Buy another account. Need to change a clan tag? Buy another account. Need to play someone far away? Buy another account. Need to play in a tournament that's not in your country? Better buy another account.
3. Easy.
4. You can not level up, and you can not get points. The scares away a lot of casuals.
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Riot does a much better job than Blizzard promoting its game as an e-sport to its user base
This 100 times. Its so true, the head of IEM even said this on the Kiev podcast interview done by Team Liquid. Blizzard, even trying a little bit by giving it some odd "esports page" in one of its tab could do a lot better.
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On March 08 2012 05:20 Sinensis wrote:
League of Legends is
1. Actively supported by it's developer.
2. Free.
3. Easy.
4. You can level up and get points.
Sc2 is
1. Actively supported by it's developer? Eh, that's debatable. More like there will be a new game to buy sometime in the future that may or may not have improved features.
2. Not free. Need a name change? Buy another account. Need to change a clan tag? Buy another account. Need to play someone far away? Buy another account. Need to play in a tournament that's not in your country? Better buy another account.
3. Easy.
4. You can not level up, and you can not get points. The scares away a lot of casuals.
I don't know about SC2 being easy but overall yeah, the other factors are huge. Also, it's a different game type. DOTA games are just really popular. RTS games have been midly popular at best in most of the gaming world.
That and like others have pointed out, Riot just does a good job of promoting their game/any tournament.
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I guess people rather watch something that is familiar, than watching something that is actuallythe better e-sport. Same applies to BW imo.
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On March 08 2012 05:20 Sinensis wrote:
League of Legends is
1. Actively supported by it's developer.
2. Free.
3. Easy.
4. You can level up and get points.
Sc2 is
1. Actively supported by it's developer? Eh, that's debatable. More like there will be a new game to buy sometime in the future that may or may not have improved features.
2. Not free. Need a name change? Buy another account. Need to change a clan tag? Buy another account. Need to play someone far away? Buy another account. Need to play in a tournament that's not in your country? Better buy another account.
3. Easy.
4. You can not level up, and you can not get points. The scares away a lot of casuals.
I'm kinda undecided on whether to classify sc2 as "easy". From the perspective of a casual, sc2 is probably really frustrating because it's not going to be immediately obvious to them WHY they are losing. There's a complete lack of transparency in that regard. In my experience, the general feeling among low-league players is that sc2 is all "about luck" and "coin-flip builds" and that "being skilled is just being lucky more often". This is a toxic sort of mindset and I'm speculating that it results in burnout and frustration.
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On March 08 2012 01:02 Thaniri wrote:
When I see for IEM that there is 120k viewers for League, and 30k for Starcraft, it sort of bothers me.
I know that the viewer count is massively inflated by having it in the client of League, but what is going on?
Every friend I have who plays League does not watch competition because it is boring to watch or they would rather play.
Yet every Starcraft player from bronze to grandmaster seems to know and care about our pro scene and we pull in 30k viewers.
Doesn't it feel like cheating by Riot to have the stream in the client? Because it feels to me that one would log in, go AFK and the viewer count is filled with non-viewers.
Or I could be completely full of crap and my friends who play League (ranging from casual to mega tryhard again) are just part of a minority in League.
Yeah like many people have pointed out, there are a lot more LoL players compared to SC2 players. For both LoL and SC2, viewers are usually people who either play the game or have played the game, so it’s pretty self-explanatory that LoL gets a higher view count. To my knowledge, BW is the only game that manages to attract viewers that do not actually play the game and unless SC2 succeeds in this regard, viewer count will always be limited to the amount of people playing.
Also, is Riot cheating because they can promote their game better than Blizzard? That is a pretty ridiculous statement. Anyway, I don’t think that LoL’s popularity is something to be upset about. At least not more upsetting than the fact that a noob-friendly game like SC2 is more popular than BW. Are you bothered by that as well?
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Just going to throw this out there as no one ever seems to bring it up.
Viewer count is not everything.
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I enjoy playing LoL just as much as SC, but I can't understand how people enjoy watching it.
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I never played LoL but from what other people have told me, it's basically Easy mode Dota and dota was already a REALLY popular game so why wouldn't this be? It's free, its simple and Riot Supports the heck out of it.
SC2 is easier than BW but there is still a learning curve to the game if you want to be a pro, doesnt seem to be as steep in LoL but what would i know. It costs 60$, it has terrible support from blizz, Battlenet 0.2 is DEAD and boring so there isn't much of a reason to stick around after you ladder.
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LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it.
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On March 08 2012 09:43 mordk wrote:
LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it.
Where have I heard this one before?
Oh yeah, SC2.
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On March 08 2012 09:44 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 09:43 mordk wrote:
LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it. Where have I heard this one before? Oh yeah, SC2.
If it's so easy go win a GSL then.
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On March 08 2012 09:58 TanKLoveR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 09:44 koreasilver wrote:On March 08 2012 09:43 mordk wrote:
LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it. Where have I heard this one before? Oh yeah, SC2. If it's so easy go win a GSL then.
that doesn't even relate to what he's saying... go win a LoL tournament at MLG then! ... but yeah Thaniri the client doesn't automatically count you if you log in... if it did I bet the numbers would go near or over a million.
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I watch the LoL stream cause my only other choice is SC2
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Simplicity is a good thing when it comes to passive consumption of content like a gaming stream or TV. LoL and SC2 are both "dumbed-down" versions of their predecessors, but LoL is F2P which gives it a much higher potential player base which a stream viewer base is derived from. It really shouldn't be too surprising that LoL generates higher viewer counts.
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On March 08 2012 10:04 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 09:58 TanKLoveR wrote:On March 08 2012 09:44 koreasilver wrote:On March 08 2012 09:43 mordk wrote:
LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it. Where have I heard this one before? Oh yeah, SC2. If it's so easy go win a GSL then. that doesn't even relate to what he's saying... go win a LoL tournament at MLG then! ... but yeah Thaniri the client doesn't automatically count you if you log in... if it did I bet the numbers would go near or over a million.
I would but I don't feel like playing games that cater to the audience that plays farmville. Also lol at comparing GSL to MLG, even LoL can't have such a low level of competition that MLG is the highest level of play.
User was warned for this post
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Imagine you could log into a blizzard launcher from which you could chat/launch like steam, and whenever a tournament was on - the splash screen was a massive HEY THERES A TOURNAMENT ON, COME WATCH IT CLICK THIS, before you could even get to anything else.
Yeah, that's what lol has going for it for stream numbers.
If x% click it, they get higher stream numbers than sc2 viewers.
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On March 08 2012 11:00 TanKLoveR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 10:04 OmniEulogy wrote:On March 08 2012 09:58 TanKLoveR wrote:On March 08 2012 09:44 koreasilver wrote:On March 08 2012 09:43 mordk wrote:
LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it. Where have I heard this one before? Oh yeah, SC2. If it's so easy go win a GSL then. that doesn't even relate to what he's saying... go win a LoL tournament at MLG then! ... but yeah Thaniri the client doesn't automatically count you if you log in... if it did I bet the numbers would go near or over a million. I would but I don't feel like playing games that cater to the audience that plays farmville. Also lol at comparing GSL to MLG, even LoL can't have such a low level of competition that MLG is the highest level of play. User was warned for this post
Shouldn't be playing sc2 then
:/
It seems to me like the GSL winners weren't even good enough to qualify for the OSL consistently. Or at all.
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On March 08 2012 11:57 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 11:00 TanKLoveR wrote:On March 08 2012 10:04 OmniEulogy wrote:On March 08 2012 09:58 TanKLoveR wrote:On March 08 2012 09:44 koreasilver wrote:On March 08 2012 09:43 mordk wrote:
LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it. Where have I heard this one before? Oh yeah, SC2. If it's so easy go win a GSL then. that doesn't even relate to what he's saying... go win a LoL tournament at MLG then! ... but yeah Thaniri the client doesn't automatically count you if you log in... if it did I bet the numbers would go near or over a million. I would but I don't feel like playing games that cater to the audience that plays farmville. Also lol at comparing GSL to MLG, even LoL can't have such a low level of competition that MLG is the highest level of play. User was warned for this post Shouldn't be playing sc2 then :/ It seems to me like the GSL winners weren't even good enough to qualify for the OSL consistently. Or at all.
I haven't played for almost a year, not just the casual nature of the game but many other reasons. People put the blame on the wrong things about why SC2 is more "casual", going back to your main to check on your workers to put them to mine every 40 secs is hardly something that will make a huge difference in the game, same with all the other easier macro mechanics. The game is so much more different and casual cause of the new REALLY easy to use units like the colossus, roach, marauder, infestor and so on, they are just easier to use version of the reaver, firebat, hydralisk? and the defiler. SC2 lacks that finesse BW had when a player made an awesome move like a sick reaver micro, some awesome storm or an awesome recall and so on because SC2 is just a macro game and that really detracts from the FUN it is to watch at least in my opinion.
At the end of the day Blizzard has changed a lot, they are following zynga in their business models which is make games for the general public and not for gamers. I'm a gamer and i dont need to have things explained to me like im 5, i don't mind going online to look up what are the best talent trees/builds etc and i can put up with some frustration while learning something cause im used to it. Your average girl, 14 year old and "adult" just want instant gratification and that's all there is to it.
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over 4:1 ratio of current players. LoL is just so much better in terms of appeal to casual players.
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LoL is just more popular among casual gamers. I don't understand why they like it, but they do..
I've tried watching LoL games to try to b open minded about it, but my brain kinda hurts after a while trying to decipher what's going on in the fights, Dota games are way more fun to watch in my opinion, and once Dota 2 gets released and is free to play I have a feeling LoL is gonna lose a lot of viewers
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On March 08 2012 15:23 nufcrulz wrote:
LoL is just more popular among casual gamers. I don't understand why they like it, but they do..
I've tried watching LoL games to try to b open minded about it, but my brain kinda hurts after a while trying to decipher what's going on in the fights, Dota games are way more fun to watch in my opinion, and once Dota 2 gets released and is free to play I have a feeling LoL is gonna lose a lot of viewers
Eh, as a long time Dota player, I initially thought the same thing about lol but now, after 2 years of lol, I can much more easily tell whats happening in teamfights in lol over dota. Just getting used to it I guess.
I also think that Dota->LoL is an easier transition than the other way around. At least for me, Dota is much less forgiving mechanically and positionally. You do something stupid in LoL and you can flash/cleanse out of it but in Dota you're instagibbed. Also, if you feed the wrong person in Dota.. game just over.
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On March 08 2012 12:54 TanKLoveR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 11:57 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On March 08 2012 11:00 TanKLoveR wrote:On March 08 2012 10:04 OmniEulogy wrote:On March 08 2012 09:58 TanKLoveR wrote:On March 08 2012 09:44 koreasilver wrote:On March 08 2012 09:43 mordk wrote:
LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it. Where have I heard this one before? Oh yeah, SC2. If it's so easy go win a GSL then. that doesn't even relate to what he's saying... go win a LoL tournament at MLG then! ... but yeah Thaniri the client doesn't automatically count you if you log in... if it did I bet the numbers would go near or over a million. I would but I don't feel like playing games that cater to the audience that plays farmville. Also lol at comparing GSL to MLG, even LoL can't have such a low level of competition that MLG is the highest level of play. User was warned for this post Shouldn't be playing sc2 then :/ It seems to me like the GSL winners weren't even good enough to qualify for the OSL consistently. Or at all. I haven't played for almost a year, not just the casual nature of the game but many other reasons. People put the blame on the wrong things about why SC2 is more "casual", going back to your main to check on your workers to put them to mine every 40 secs is hardly something that will make a huge difference in the game, same with all the other easier macro mechanics. The game is so much more different and casual cause of the new REALLY easy to use units like the colossus, roach, marauder, infestor and so on, they are just easier to use version of the reaver, firebat, hydralisk? and the defiler. SC2 lacks that finesse BW had when a player made an awesome move like a sick reaver micro, some awesome storm or an awesome recall and so on because SC2 is just a macro game and that really detracts from the FUN it is to watch at least in my opinion. At the end of the day Blizzard has changed a lot, they are following zynga in their business models which is make games for the general public and not for gamers. I'm a gamer and i dont need to have things explained to me like im 5, i don't mind going online to look up what are the best talent trees/builds etc and i can put up with some frustration while learning something cause im used to it. Your average girl, 14 year old and "adult" just want instant gratification and that's all there is to it.
Ironically to BW players you are the average girl, 14 year old and "adult".
On March 08 2012 04:39 Megaliskuu wrote:
All the LoL hate around here is funny, LoL is to Sc2 what SC2 is to BW.
I guess it isn't called SC3 so BW people just don't care. Imagine if LoL was named SC3:BW, that shit would be infuriating xD
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Well, a lot of people have said this before but :
1. LoL/and even Dota is just more popular than SC2 in terms of player base. Even if Tourney streams are embedded/advertised in Bnet, it's not gonna help much. How many players are still active in SC2 anyway. Very little compared to release. Especially compared to LoL who pulls millions
2. Team games > Individual games. In ANYTHING be it esports or real sports. Soccer is world's most popular sport. Top 3 major sports in the US are football/basketball/baseball ( all team sports). This is even more prevalent in Asian countries where the culture of going to LAN Cafe/PC Bangs are popular. They don't play as much from home. It is a social experience.When you have LAN Parties, you want a game where all 10 people can play with each other. Instead of having 1v1 x 5. Team Games for SC2 sucks, partly because Bnet 2.0 messed up with the custom games and of course no LAN. When someone brought his friend to a Internet Cafe, he can't introduce his friend to SC2 because guess what, his friend would need to have his own account or to buy a prepaid account.
3. The part about SC2 being more challenging is barely a reason. Soccer / Basketball is in principle a much simpler sport compared to Decathlon. Just kick the ball around/Throw the ball into the basket compared to Mastering 10 disciplines of athletics. Doesn't mean soccer/basketball is an inferior sport.
4. LoL/Dota players still love to play the game whereas for SC2 , even in Teamliquid, there are countless people who " Oh I don't even play the game anymore because ladder fear / bnet2.0 sucks/lonely/no friends/ imba/map sucks, I only watch competitive games" This is not sustainable and it hinders the growth of the game. Sure people argue that SC2 can be enjoyed by people who don't play the game. But how realistic it is in the context of western esport. Will a lot of people really bother to check out Professional Gamers and appreciate what they do if they don't play the game themselves?
To be honest, much of the blame lies with Blizzard. If only they fix the custom/team games so it is at least as fun as wc3. Fix Bnet2.0 so it's a more social experience, then you'll have more people playing the game and consequently watching the game.
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On March 08 2012 18:37 TrainSamurai wrote:
Ironically to BW players you are the average girl, 14 year old and "adult".
You really can't compare Koreans to the rest of the world, they grew up with that stuff either playing it since they were little like we did or grew up admiring these players and wanted to be them. Very different from your average girl who plays Zynga games on facebook, or stay home mom, or dad who plays some games on the weekend. These people are not used to how games were before, people who play BW are.
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lol why do people think the gaming demographic is really that different in Korea? Of course Korea has more vibrant and normalized gaming scene, but casual gamers are still the great majority. Have people completely forgotten Ragnarok, Maplestory, and all those other silly games that people just play to relieve stress or to have fun on the weekend? Or is everyone just ignoring that stuff.
Or are you just talking out of your ass.
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On March 09 2012 01:06 koreasilver wrote:
lol why do people think the gaming demographic is really that different in Korea? Of course Korea has more vibrant and normalized gaming scene, but casual gamers are still the great majority. Have people completely forgotten Ragnarok, Maplestory, and all those other silly games that people just play to relieve stress or to have fun on the weekend? Or is everyone just ignoring that stuff.
Or are you just talking out of your ass.
Ok fine i guess i miss spoke with that last one, if you're referring to me. I should have said You really can't compare how BW fans in Korea to the rest of the world, they grew up with that game. But yea I'm sure the masses in Korea play silly games just like everybody else.
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On March 08 2012 09:58 TanKLoveR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 09:44 koreasilver wrote:On March 08 2012 09:43 mordk wrote:
LoL is just popular, that's about it. It's like asking why Justin Bieber wins awards and draws huge crowds.
It's a sucky ass and boring game, but it's casual friendly, free to play and easy to learn, that pretty much explains it. Where have I heard this one before? Oh yeah, SC2. If it's so easy go win a GSL then.
If LoL is so easy get some sc2 player to easily go win a LoL tournament then? o.o
Strange argument.
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Was 260k+ at the last IEM tourny at Kiev
It's simply a more popular game with a relatively low skill cap
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On March 11 2012 02:14 MooMooMugi wrote:
Was 260k+ at the last IEM tourny at Kiev
It's simply a more popular game with a relatively low skill cap
it's also a much more global game than SC2
LoL penetration into markets like Asia are much deeper than SC2's due to LoL being F2P and LoL being a less intimidating game to play than SC2
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Vancouver14381 Posts
We got 260k for Hanover too. Too bad we couldn't get to 333,333 for Carmac to do a cosplay at the next IEM.
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Its because league is free and popular. Also Riot puts a giant stream link into the launcher so that the lots of people playing are all aware of the tournaments.
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Hate to bump, edit at the top of the post.
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Do players streaming LoL get a ton of viewers? Or is it just these events.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On March 11 2012 05:26 Megaliskuu wrote:
Do players streaming LoL get a ton of viewers? Or is it just these events.
The most popular LoL streams (maybe 5-10) average 10-20k and they're on pretty much everyday. There are maybe around another 10-20 streamers with ~1-3k viewers?
As to the difference between IEM and IPL, I think it's due to a European influence. There is a large playerbase in EU and the IPL events so far have been NA only. We'll see how well IPL4 does since there is 1 EU team playing there. Today's IPL event is also a small showmatch with very little advertising (compared to Liquid playing in TB's tournament).
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Team based games will almost always fair better than "loner" 1v1 styled games such as SC2. It's not suprising to me that LoL is magnatudes more popular than SC2.
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I think IPL was basically just overshadowed by IEM. I personally didn't even know about it untill a friend told (who keeps very close eye on most tournaments) told it was on.
And OP, you are kidding yourself if you think being logged in to the client counts a view. This is a myth created by bitter / butthurt Dota/SC2 players.
Also, the stuff about European influence is also true. IEM had teams from NA, EU and even Asia, obviously making it more popular than IPL.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 11 2012 07:43 NonFactor wrote:
And OP, you are kidding yourself if you think being logged in to the client counts a view.
I'd actually like to see blizz have an embedded-in-the-client stream thing like what R1CH has set up here: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/NydusNetwork/
Just because it would give exposure to tournaments and streamers. Even if it wouldn't count for "views", it'd increase the interest in esports. That's something I think Riot does very well-- it's a smart company.
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i don't understand why people hate on the viewer numbers for LoL for one reason:
why is it bad to have more people interested in observing professional level gaming? it doesn't matter what game it is when people all over the world are being exposed to the professional esports scene.
it should also be noted that for the regular daily player streams, riot also goes out of their way to promote some of the streamers as "featured streamers" for a few weeks at a time. the featured players attract 5-6 times the number of viewers they got before being featured by riot.
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when was the last 'LoL' major tournament?
i said it because in the last 2 weeks we had seen MLG arena, ASUS, GSL finals, and IEM, then maybe people is just oversaturated, meanwhile that lol tournament is any kind of event that is not seen often.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On March 11 2012 10:16 xuanzue wrote:
when was the last 'LoL' major tournament?
i said it because in the last 2 weeks we had seen MLG arena, ASUS, GSL finals, and IEM, then maybe people is just oversaturated, meanwhile that lol tournament is any kind of event that is not seen often.
Officially, the last major LAN event for LoL was the OGN Invitational in February but there were only 2 international teams (CLG and World Elite). The last truly international LAN would be IEM Kiev while the last major NA and EU tournament were Curse Invitational (Feb 11-25) and Kings of Europe (Jan 28-31), respectively.
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United States37500 Posts
The last major (offline) tournament before IEM Hannover was IEM Kiev.
Then next one is IPL4.
LoL definitely does not have the frequency of tournaments like SC2 does.
Edit: JBright ninjas. Last online was Curse LoL Invitational.
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I think SC2 is a better esport to watch as a non-player. But LoL has such a massive player base that they've overtaken us in raw number of stream viewers.
I think a lot of it comes down to Riot's awesome marketing. Its obvious that online gaming is transitioning away from big box products towards microtransactions. Blizzard dropped the ball on that one, but it will get a shot in the arm after each expansion comes out.
Another thing that helps LoL is that even though its a tough game to spectate, they put a TON of effort into their spectator mode to minimize that pain as much as possible.
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It's been said before - Blizzard does a terrible job at marketing SC2 to the more casual players - From the ads, down to the community interaction in BNet2.0 and the way streams are inaccessible to casual players who don't know about TeamLiquid or any other community site.
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Well, my take on this is that Isaac Newton, Einstein and Carl Sagan are the same species as Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Snooki.
Nobody in their right mind would disagree with me when I say that unfortunately, there are more Snookies than Newtons.
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On March 08 2012 01:37 theBALLS wrote:
Why do more people watch Jersey Shore than an Attenborough documentary?
LoL!!
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SC is really different, I notice it when I listen to my mates on skype, they get so mad, angry, frustrated, moaning, being irrational when getting owned, fucking up, not doing well. And then when they are playing a LOL type of game, they easily get a feeling of "ahh, im pretty awesome at thiz yay".
Maybe that helps as well, sc makes you feel x10 worse or something lol
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On March 11 2012 12:08 Djzapz wrote:
Well, my take on this is that Isaac Newton, Einstein and Carl Sagan are the same species as Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Snooki.
Nobody in their right mind would disagree with me when I say that unfortunately, there are more Snookies than Newtons.
Right but I would disagree with the analogy in the first place
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On March 11 2012 12:08 Djzapz wrote:
Well, my take on this is that Isaac Newton, Einstein and Carl Sagan are the same species as Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Snooki.
Nobody in their right mind would disagree with me when I say that unfortunately, there are more Snookies than Newtons.
This is an excellent analogy of Brood War to Starcraft 2.
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I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports.
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On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports.
It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game.
The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer".
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On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer".
It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting.
And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what?
Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low.
''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot.
I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that.
Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM.
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On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:
Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM.
Can't really compare a turn based game vs a 'real time' game.
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On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM.
I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction.
It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit.
LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Now you know how some BW people feel, when a game you deem to be inferior is more popular.
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On March 11 2012 21:37 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:
Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM.
Can't really compare a turn based game vs a 'real time' game.
Can't really compare a 1v1 RTS with a 5v5 MOBA.
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On March 11 2012 22:01 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM. I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction. It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit. LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that.
and yet they have over 200k people tuning in for the finals of a tournament
clearly the game is terrible and everyone watching it is an idiot
good thing day9 added a the manly and balanced game of chess to the AHGL - he could have made a huge mistake adding some garbage terrible game
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SC2 is too hard and complex for most ppl leading to less players and thus less viewers. No esport has cultural & mass market appeal so they have to cater to player base for viewership and SC2 not no where near as large as LoL.
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On March 11 2012 22:36 MiKTeX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 22:01 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM. I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction. It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit. LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that. and yet they have over 200k people tuning in for the finals of a tournament clearly the game is terrible and everyone watching it is an idiot good thing day9 added a the manly and balanced game of chess to the AHGL - he could have made a huge mistake adding some garbage terrible game
A lot of people watch horrible horrible reality tv shows that doesn't make them any good. Simple entertainment for simple people.
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On March 11 2012 22:39 tdt wrote:
SC2 is too hard and complex for most ppl leading to less players and thus less viewers. No esport has cultural & mass market appeal so they have to cater to player base for viewership and SC2 not no where near as large as LoL.
Or maybe people just find LoL to be more entertaining that SC2 for whatever reasons? There are other reasons as to why SC2 has arguably failed in Korea (the Blizzard debacle) but both BW and LoL are more popular than SC2 in Korea right now, and we're talking about probably the culture that has accepted gaming into society more openly than anywhere else.
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It amuses me to no end the SC2 fans that yell and scream about LoL being a noob-friendly game with simplified mechanics then turn around and rage at the BW vets who say thing about SC2. Talk about being hypocritical!
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Why are you so bothered by this? BW Proleague has maybe 2K viewers per stream, maybe....on a good day?
Stop whining. Viewer count doesn't really mean anything as long as you just watch your game as a fan.
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i think i saw LoL peak at around 222k during the IEM finals. This is completely insane. In an indirect way LoL being so popular is actually good for SC2. Its promoting Esports which is good for all of us.
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Does it really matter if sc2 is more complex and more balanced than LoL? APM, balance, complexity, competitiveness or whatever it is doesn't matters. LoL is extremely popular, and a lot of people clearly enjoy it more than sc2 for whatever reasons.You can talk all you want about it but the truth is LoL>>>>>>>sc2 in numbers of player and viewer. Suck it up.
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On March 11 2012 22:01 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM. I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction. It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit. LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that.
SC2, in comparison to chess, is a terrible game and a step in the wrong direction. Learn that. (Goes aswell for LoL, but to a much lesser degree.) See how easy this is? Should we continue coming up with these ''facts'' out of nowhere?
I didn't miss the point, my original issue here was the elitism showed by SC players. And you with your posts just strenghten my point. And by that, I'll point out that you failed to address the most important issue.
You can keep crying how SC2 is harder than LoL, but as long LoL is more entertaining, and thats what I personally (and most people) look for in games, then it deserves to thrive. If you want to play games after difficulty, you are free to do so. (Dunno why you are playing SC2 in that case though.) But by saying that LoL isn't balanced, competitive or generally is a bad game, shows nothing but blind fanboyness and ignorance from you.
Like someone mentioned, and I already touched upon my last post, comparing a MOBA to an RTS like BW/SC2 to begin with is just stupid. You need a different set of skills to excel in both games.
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I saw those numbers for the IEM and that is just crazy, I don't think SC2 could ever get that many viewers lol not by a lot and while it was sad that is reality . If there is anything that WoW and Zynga have showed us is that there are far more non-gamers than "gamers" and these games are catered to them, Riot completely went in the right direction by aiming their game at them by making it simpler AND FREE. I never really liked LoL mostly because I never played dota so i don't know what's going on lol but that is ok, this game is not aimed to me so i just ignore it.
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What the fuk is going on with all these silly LoL vs SC2 viewer? Its all good. Its Esport. Why people alway want to be elite?
Why do you need to emphasize the game you play is harder than others?
Its like you are a soccer fan and tell a tennis fan to fuk off because, tennis is just a silly game with 2 people smashing their rackets into a small ball. Diffence games, difference skills. Thats it.
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On March 11 2012 18:30 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 12:08 Djzapz wrote:
Well, my take on this is that Isaac Newton, Einstein and Carl Sagan are the same species as Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Snooki.
Nobody in their right mind would disagree with me when I say that unfortunately, there are more Snookies than Newtons. Right but I would disagree with the analogy in the first place
Why, it seems fairly representative to me. Perhaps the gap is too wide, but the spirit is still there.
On March 11 2012 18:47 Kaal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 12:08 Djzapz wrote:
Well, my take on this is that Isaac Newton, Einstein and Carl Sagan are the same species as Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Snooki.
Nobody in their right mind would disagree with me when I say that unfortunately, there are more Snookies than Newtons. This is an excellent analogy of Brood War to Starcraft 2.
Yes I can see that =P
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The casual base of SC2 only play custom, IMO. They don't give shits to melee games nor understand it.
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Ok, so LoL is more accessible, popular in Asia, free, has better user interface, social features, etc. I really do understand why the player base is bigger.
BUT, something that has barely been addressed here (I only read stuff about how sc2 is harder): am I the only one finding LoL really boring to *watch* ? Don't get me wrong, I like to play it. But to watch...
And I do enjoy watching sc2, bw, quake 3, CS, wc3, tennis, soccer, judo, swimming... I am quite easily pleased when it comes to watching some competitive sport/activity. But LoL just looks horrible to watch. Camera misses tons of things, its really hard to understand what's going on during a 5v5 fight (even commentators and some players admit they dont understand sometimes...)
So: do people watching the stream actually *watch*, enjoy, understand? Or is it more of a background thing thats nice to have running, like TV on when you do the dishes?
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I think I prefer watching high level LoL more than high level SC2. Sure, I watch a lot of both but when I have to chose between a hyped SC2 tournament final and an equally hyped LoL final, I'd....WATCH BOTH! No, but seriously, I'd pick the LoL one.
Fact is, good LoL matches are far between while I can see top SC2 pros playing each other every day of the week.
Also, while I understand SC2 and how the individual skill of the players clash to determine the outcome and while the individual (mechanical speed and so on) skill of a LoL-player isn't as high, the fact that it's a team game brings sooo much to the table. Team tactics, combos, life-savers, team fights, match plans...it's all really exciting to me. This might be just me growing up playing almost only team sports so I definitely know and love the dynamics of team based sports.
I watched the monobattle tournament this weekend and loved every single minute of it. Not only because of the wacky antics and the drunk TB. :D Also, I'll watch a SC2 team league tournament over a individual tournament every day. Sure the games are still individual but the player choices and tactics really appeal to me.
Yeah, sometimes it's a pain to watch a LoL match if the commentators miss stuff and yes, it's really hard to know what's going on in a full blown team fight. To me it's the stuff leading up to the team fights, the positioning, the cds saved, the initiation and the timing as well as the aftermath of the fight that is really intriguing, not the actual fight itself, that's just a product of everything else. Sure, sometimes someone does something in a team fight to really screw it up or totally win it but those things are usually obvious and not hard to catch. The intricate stuff that you don't see is still just a by product of the build up of the fight and you don't really need to follow every detail to know what happened if you kept an eye on farm, items, kda and positioning.
Ah well, my morning rant. GG HF!
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On March 11 2012 22:01 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:18 NonFactor wrote:On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:On March 11 2012 19:05 NonFactor wrote:
I love how this community is growing into 3 different groups. BW, SC2 and now LoL. And the hate between the 3 just seems to be growing for some reason.
To me it feels like SC2 players lash out to LoL players because they got lashed out by BW players. And the mentality that BW > SC2 > LoL is also ridicolously bad. It should be BW = SC2 = LoL. They are all games and if people enjoy them, where's the harm in that?
Dunno, maybe it's time for the TL staff to step in and put some boundaries over the hate? And I know it's not black and white, but the hating seriously seems to come mainly from SC players. (In every thread basically out of the LoL sub-forum.)
The elitism here is killing e-sports. It's not elitism when you want to preserve the continued success of your beloved, more challenging and stimulating game. The fact of the matter is, esports is expanding slowly. Meaning when a new game is released, it's going to pull viewers away from the older game. Now I'm completely fine with that, but when the new game is completely garbage in terms of competitiveness (some complain SC2 is more luck-based than BW and not as balanced, to which I just point them to LoL and everyone just lols), I get fucking pissed. Personally, I just cannot, for the life of me, accept a game that requires 60APM to play PERFECTLY. Strategies/tactics/game knowledge/etc. aside, the mechanical raw speed and precision of both bw and sc2 progamers amazes me, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for any MOBA games; even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer". It's funny how with that post you did nothing except prove my point. Even though I meant the last part as a joke, it really seems that the elitism of this community, SC players especially, is hurting. And it's also hilarious how you behave exactly the way I described. BW players lash out on SC2 players, and for some reason SC2 players need to take it out on LoL. Why do you point people who make fun of SC2 players to LoL? Feeling insecure or what? Also it's known and very few people would deny it (pros especially) that the individual skill cap in games like LoL, HoN, Dota 1/2 is quite low. ''The fact of the matter is'', MOBA/ARTS games are TEAM centered games. The true skill in these games come from teamwork and teamplay. You say you can become a top player easily. Now go get 4 other like minded people and become one of the top teams in the world. Can you achieve that? I seriously doubt it. Having good mechanics in LoL and actually being a good player ''or pro'' in LoL differs a lot. I can also honestly say that with the tunnelvision you have currently have regarding LoL (or other similar games) you would never reach the top, or become a good player. It isn't a 1v1 game. Learn that. Oh well, I guess Chess sucks aswell and requires no skill since people can play it with less than 1 APM. I'm not going to go into detail about how you completely missed the point choosing to respond with huge paragraphs on an irrelevant personal preference, I'll just point out that you failed to address the most important issue: competitiveness (balance, minimizing the effect of luck, etc.) should be encouraged at all times, and LoL (and to a much lesser degree SC2) are stepping in the WRONG direction. It's almost laughable that you would bring up the example of chess, because other than a minor advantage at the start of every game, chess is fucking balanced as shit. LoL is, in comparison, a terrible game that's stepping in the wrong direction. Learn that.
Pretty much everything I want to say about this issue I've already said here: http://mogwaismusings.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/in-defense-of-lol/
The only thing I want to add is that you're not giving real arguments about why LoL is going "in the WRONG direction" with regards to competitiveness when everything they've been doing to the game over the last year has been reducing the impact of luck and improving balance. Your whole argument seems to boil down to, "just look at LoL, they suck!" but you seem to have no higher understanding of the game of LoL and as such all your criticisms come off as baseless and petty. If you want to win people over, give them some real reasons why LoL is a bad competitive game (spoilers:+ Show Spoiler +).
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On March 11 2012 20:58 EngrishTeacher wrote:
even watching top-tier LoL streams I realize that with a bit of training to expand my game knowledge, I'd be able to play just as well as the LoL "progamer".
Why even make this statement? First, everyone here knows you won't make any attempt to back it up, and second, informed people know that it's just not true. You may be able to spend a generous amount of time(a few months) to learn the game mechanics(just because they require low APM doesn't mean you will apply that APM properly), the hero skills and interactions, the items and their progressions, etc; but you will certainly not reach a pro level in that time.
The games are completely different, yet you think because they share a topdown view and a minimap that your play in a more mechanically demanding game instantly makes you superior.
Out of curiosity, are you even good at SC2?
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I was a top ra3 player back in the day, however when the game started dieing out everyone turned to the release of sc2 and I started playing sc2 since the beta. I was quite blown away of how big sc2 was and how much more competitive it was then ra3. I followed the pro scene religiously, and played 30-40 games a day on the ladder average. After being in GM in SEA for a long time, I decided to switch to NA to see how far I could go. I only managed to break into the NA top 200 several months ago, however after doing it I kind of lost my motivation so I decided to try LoL with a friend.
I was surprised by how fast you can learn LoL, its very easy to pick up.. I think this fact deceives many people, just because it is easy to learn doesn't mean its easy to master. With 90+ champions and a variety of items and spells and builds you can do, the possibilities for different strategies is endless. LoL isn't a casual game.. as a player who was actually decent at sc2 I can't even maintain a 1400 rating in LoL after 3 months of playing.
I think LoL will grow to be the biggest esport, I don't quite think the esports community has developed yet but the viewer count is much bigger than any other game and it will continue to grow. This might trigger many Korean pro gamers switching to LoL because the sponsorship money will be much higher. My dream is to see the Slayers team switching to LoL just to see how well they would do compared to the current teams.
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On March 11 2012 16:04 ImDrizzt wrote:
SC is really different, I notice it when I listen to my mates on skype, they get so mad, angry, frustrated, moaning, being irrational when getting owned, fucking up, not doing well. And then when they are playing a LOL type of game, they easily get a feeling of "ahh, im pretty awesome at thiz yay".
Maybe that helps as well, sc makes you feel x10 worse or something lol
This is very important I think. No matter what you do in SC2, it always shoves you your mistakes in your face. Didn't spend money well, 2k mins and 1k gas in the bank. Forgot Overlords, supply blocked while Protoss is warping in shit at your door. Didn't pay attention for a second, zergling control group at the watch tower got annihilated. I don't really know why, but SC2 is a lot of "oh man I screwed that up" and VERY little of "wow that went well, that's cool". In my opinion, SC2 is hard to learn and hard to master, and the learning part can be very frustrating. Other games, you can just fire up and dick around a little bit, it's fine. SC2 is always so serious...
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On March 13 2012 09:36 PraefektMotus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 16:04 ImDrizzt wrote:
SC is really different, I notice it when I listen to my mates on skype, they get so mad, angry, frustrated, moaning, being irrational when getting owned, fucking up, not doing well. And then when they are playing a LOL type of game, they easily get a feeling of "ahh, im pretty awesome at thiz yay".
Maybe that helps as well, sc makes you feel x10 worse or something lol This is very important I think. No matter what you do in SC2, it always shoves you your mistakes in your face. Didn't spend money well, 2k mins and 1k gas in the bank. Forgot Overlords, supply blocked while Protoss is warping in shit at your door. Didn't pay attention for a second, zergling control group at the watch tower got annihilated. I don't really know why, but SC2 is a lot of "oh man I screwed that up" and VERY little of "wow that went well, that's cool". In my opinion, SC2 is hard to learn and hard to master, and the learning part can be very frustrating. Other games, you can just fire up and dick around a little bit, it's fine. SC2 is always so serious...
Mistakes in LoL have the same consequences it is not uncommon for 1 person to be caught out of position and result in their team loosing a lot of ground. To make matters worse this upsets the whole moral of the team which often leads to the entire team performing poorly (in solo queue anyway).
Games in LoL last between 20mins to 1 hour it is just as serious as starcraft even in normal queue.
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I can't believe that you refer to Riot's supporting of its esports community as "cheating". It's the least that a responsible game development company would do.
What is happening to TL.net, I don't even know.
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LoL is a great game but skill wise it has nothing to do with starcraft. Almost everything in lol is not about individual skill but more about team skill and team communication. M5's play is actually pretty beautiful to watch and that is because they are really moving as one.
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All of my friends who play league say they can't play starcraft cause its too hard.
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On March 12 2012 14:56 Yenticha wrote:
Ok, so LoL is more accessible, popular in Asia, free, has better user interface, social features, etc. I really do understand why the player base is bigger.
BUT, something that has barely been addressed here (I only read stuff about how sc2 is harder): am I the only one finding LoL really boring to *watch* ? Don't get me wrong, I like to play it. But to watch...
And I do enjoy watching sc2, bw, quake 3, CS, wc3, tennis, soccer, judo, swimming... I am quite easily pleased when it comes to watching some competitive sport/activity. But LoL just looks horrible to watch. Camera misses tons of things, its really hard to understand what's going on during a 5v5 fight (even commentators and some players admit they dont understand sometimes...)
So: do people watching the stream actually *watch*, enjoy, understand? Or is it more of a background thing thats nice to have running, like TV on when you do the dishes?
personally i feel that way about sc2
i always assumed people watched LoL because they want to get better at it
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Consider this,
Riot PROMOTES ITS OWN SCENE.
to make the game even more popular, more played and bring in more revenues.
The key thing you mentioned was the fact that you indeed can see it in the game when starting up. people may or may not watch but a percentage of the scene that actualy doesn't check many tournaments at all might start enjoying high level play and bring revenues indirectly to the scene via stream.
Every view counts.
Also season one of LoL was totaly artificialy made by RIOT, the prize pool, the tounaments, everything was kind of coordinated by RIOT. They just do a terific job of promoting their game and Blizzard is just stupid to learn a lesson from it which is PROMOTE YOUR DAMN SCENE.
I always wondered why Blizzard didn't begin with it since they have plenty of money due to WoW to make everything right.
Instead of growing it themselves they expect the communities to do it, and that it of course free.
I don't like Blizzard beeing inactive about their game since I love starcraft, and the skill required to be at top level truly is amazing, compared to LoL.
LoL doesn't deserve such a big part of the world video games.
I play LoL at around 2000 ELO and I have played competitive matches. but it is sooooooooooo boring compared to DotA(2) and HoN. The balance of the game is of, tactics are limited, skill cap is too low ( DotA could be such a jukefest sometimes :D ) Competitively unviable without the support and launch of the game like RIOT did.
Tell me if it makes sense.
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One LoL commentator actually brought up the point that most people who watch League are the players who want to see the highest play to emulate (which is fairly simple), while most people who watch SC2 are actual fans who couldn't replicate even if they wanted to.
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On March 13 2012 16:52 BordZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 09:36 PraefektMotus wrote:On March 11 2012 16:04 ImDrizzt wrote:
SC is really different, I notice it when I listen to my mates on skype, they get so mad, angry, frustrated, moaning, being irrational when getting owned, fucking up, not doing well. And then when they are playing a LOL type of game, they easily get a feeling of "ahh, im pretty awesome at thiz yay".
Maybe that helps as well, sc makes you feel x10 worse or something lol This is very important I think. No matter what you do in SC2, it always shoves you your mistakes in your face. Didn't spend money well, 2k mins and 1k gas in the bank. Forgot Overlords, supply blocked while Protoss is warping in shit at your door. Didn't pay attention for a second, zergling control group at the watch tower got annihilated. I don't really know why, but SC2 is a lot of "oh man I screwed that up" and VERY little of "wow that went well, that's cool". In my opinion, SC2 is hard to learn and hard to master, and the learning part can be very frustrating. Other games, you can just fire up and dick around a little bit, it's fine. SC2 is always so serious... Mistakes in LoL have the same consequences it is not uncommon for 1 person to be caught out of position and result in their team loosing a lot of ground. To make matters worse this upsets the whole moral of the team which often leads to the entire team performing poorly (in solo queue anyway). Games in LoL last between 20mins to 1 hour it is just as serious as starcraft even in normal queue.
Whenever this argument comes up with my friends when we're playing LoL our response is that in almost any 5v5 game you really just dont feel those mistakes as much as you do in a 1v1 game like StarCraft. You'd think that even while I'm playing ranked games I'd take things more seriously, but LoL (to me, whenever I play it) is just me dicking around in an easier version of DotA. Again, the mistakes are comparable between both games, but in LoL its almost like you dont feel it enough to care/improve. In SC2 you do.
I'm aware that this sounds all like opinion, but I can't possible be the only one who also feels this way.
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It's stupid people are citing Riot's numbers and then say that proves LoL is a good game. If that was logic then we should get ready to crown Justin Bieber as the best musician in the world.
Riot's done a great job promoting their game, just like so many of today's pop stars who can't sing for shit have millions of fans because of marketing and production crews. It's pretty easy to interpret if you just frame it with the entertainment industry. Lots of music fans just want generic auto-tune sound, lots of casuals just want a -em dota game that's easy to get into without a lot of the complexity.
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On March 18 2012 19:57 Count9 wrote:
It's stupid people are citing Riot's numbers and then say that proves LoL is a good game. If that was logic then we should get ready to crown Justin Bieber as the best musician in the world.
Riot's done a great job promoting their game, just like so many of today's pop stars who can't sing for shit have millions of fans because of marketing and production crews. It's pretty easy to interpret if you just frame it with the entertainment industry. Lots of music fans just want generic auto-tune sound, lots of casuals just want a -em dota game that's easy to get into without a lot of the complexity.
But now you are being dishonest.
It isn't a matter of player numbers, but apparently it isn't a matter of critical acclaim either (of which LoL has a great deal).
So how do you define a good game? The truth in your case is that you simply state arbitrary reasonings which allow you to conclude that Starcraft 2 is still the objectively better game.
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On March 18 2012 19:57 Count9 wrote:
If that was logic then we should get ready to crown Justin Bieber as the best musician in the world.
*Cough*
In all honesty, LoL targets a larger audience and age range in terms of target groups. If you look at the XFire top games played per day, League of Legends beats all games including Call of Duty 4 and World of Warcraft by at least 1,5 million hours (though given, the menu window is counted as game time and people have that window open idle). Riot promotes their own game intensely as an eSport. SC2 gets most its viewership from individual tourney organizations that do their own marketing and promotion. It works, but it's slower.
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On March 25 2012 06:47 IniX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 19:57 Count9 wrote:
If that was logic then we should get ready to crown Justin Bieber as the best musician in the world. *Cough*In all honesty, LoL targets a larger audience and age range in terms of target groups. If you look at the XFire top games played per day, League of Legends beats all games including Call of Duty 4 and World of Warcraft by at least 1,5 million hours (though given, the menu window is counted as game time and people have that window open idle). Riot promotes their own game intensely as an eSport. SC2 gets most its viewership from individual tourney organizations that do their own marketing and promotion. It works, but it's slower.
So what you're saying is; LoL actually has a ridiculously LOW view count given its number of users...
; )
LoL is interesting for esports, I hope it continues to grow, and find a way to be balanced with the release of so many new heroes....
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On March 25 2012 18:02 Confuse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 06:47 IniX wrote:On March 18 2012 19:57 Count9 wrote:
If that was logic then we should get ready to crown Justin Bieber as the best musician in the world. *Cough*In all honesty, LoL targets a larger audience and age range in terms of target groups. If you look at the XFire top games played per day, League of Legends beats all games including Call of Duty 4 and World of Warcraft by at least 1,5 million hours (though given, the menu window is counted as game time and people have that window open idle). Riot promotes their own game intensely as an eSport. SC2 gets most its viewership from individual tourney organizations that do their own marketing and promotion. It works, but it's slower. So what you're saying is; LoL actually has a ridiculously LOW view count given its number of users... ; ) LoL is interesting for esports, I hope it continues to grow, and find a way to be balanced with the release of so many new heroes....
LoL is the equivalent of watching peewee football instead of college or the NFL. Games are just getting worse and worse it seems. Yes, even SC2 is inferior to BW, but at least it is still a decently challenging affair. How anyone can praise the continual decline of competitive gaming (viewer numbers aren't the factor here) is beyond belief. If all you want is large numbers then make the easiest, most casual snooze fest.
I mean the world has gone from CS 1.6 to CoD and CSS? Quake 3 to Quake Live? BW to SC2? Super Smash Bros to Brawl? Now we have LoL? If the scene continues to degrade it'll be a laughinstock. E-sport will be synonymous with Farmville 2.6 in five years in the ease of play.
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I think people need to remember that SC2 and LoL are completely different games.
If you think an increase of popularity in LoL is killing SC2 eSports, they are completely different games. SC2 is RTS, LoL is a DOTA clone, CoD/CS are FPS, and frankly they can all co-exist. Also you forget that while LoL is pulling in more viewers at the current time in comparison, they are taking advantage of having a free-to-play game and by hosting links to their stream within their client are showing that this method will take results. Also I'm sure Riot is operating their business model around advertising money & micro-transactions whereas SC2 has taken the "big box" approach, I think in the future we will see more integration between the online community and the SC2 client in response to this.
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LoL has a massive player base due to it being F2P, obviously. But additionally, in countries with lower relative wages like China, Starcraft can be 5+ times more expensive (relative to their earnings) than it is in places like Europe and NA. Because of this, LoL simply has a ton of players relative to SC2.
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Well, to be honest, most Asian countries love Dota much more than any other games.
It is really difficult to find a viet, malay, singaporean, Hong Kong (they play chinese dota based upon the three dynasty) etc who has never played Dota before.
RTS just doesn't have that much of attention elsewhere other than Korea.
And to them, lol is the successor for dota since it is free and wide spread. You can go to any lan cafe and there is always a lol installed.
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On March 08 2012 01:37 theBALLS wrote:
Why do more people watch Jersey Shore than an Attenborough documentary?
No fucking clue, Attenborough is a genius.
I'd pick any of his wildlife documentaries over convention TV any day.
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EPT
