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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
On March 07 2012 03:42 cmen15 wrote: I'd say its like comparing a Gohan super saiyan 2 vs a goku super saiyan 3. No what im saying? more like gohan pre super saiyan to goku super saiyan 4 | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
The gap between pro and high masters is equal to the gap between high bronze and mid-gold, as the higher player wins about 90% of both. That's my point of view though, I could easily be wrong. | ||
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
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Fission
Canada1184 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
Gap from masters to pro: ]xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[ | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
The gap from bronze to high masters is way bigger than high masters to pro imo. However, as you get better and better it becomes more difficult to improve so that gap is very difficult to close. If you look at the way people play, it unquestionable that masters and pro-gamers have much more in common than bronze players and masters players. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On March 07 2012 03:37 Brandish wrote: Is the gap from masters to bronze as big as pro-gamer to masters? Much larger. Master's is like 100 IQ average intelligence. Bronze is like if my dog tried to play starcraft. On March 07 2012 16:41 Jonoman92 wrote: The gap from bronze to high masters is way bigger than high masters to pro imo. However, as you get better and better it becomes more difficult to improve so that gap is very difficult to close. If you look at the way people play, it unquestionable that masters and pro-gamers have much more in common than bronze players and masters players. This about sums it up. Master's players have basic awareness of the metagame and how to execute most tasks fluidly. Progamers have deeper knowledge of the metagame, more flawless execution, and refined mechanics/multitasking. Bronze players barely know what every unit does and more than half of them are capable of losing to worker rushes. | ||
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S2Lunar
1051 Posts
Secondly, High Master-Low GM are very similar. I play Low-Mid GM's every day and they are no different from high masters for the most part. You really start to see the skill gap widen at top 60 GM or so. Thats when the level of players is actually pretty damn high, atleast compared to high master. If you're talking about you're average, Low Master, they will get stomped routinely by low-mid gm's, just as they get routinely stomped by High Masters for the most part. But also, it's not really what league you're in, but rather what your MMR is. I've faced a few bad low GM's who play like their Mid Master. Being a High Master usually means you understand how the game works, you understand the mechanics, the builds, you can excute strategies decently. The difference of your typical GM is that they not only understand mechanics, and builds, but they know how to execute their strategies pretty well, atleast compared to Masters. Low Master > GM gap is giant, Mid Master > GM is pretty big, and High Master > GM isn't that large. But High Master > Pro is pretty damn large as well. | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
The difference between masters and a top pro player, I'd say is much greater than that between bronze and masters. Completely untrue. I'm mid-high masters, I've beaten pros like QxG Darkcell on ladder when I go on a winstreak (he was on a losing streak, so our MMR's met and I beat him in a macro game.). My apm is higher than most pros, and my multi tasking is almost there. I've played several others in tournaments as well (FXOcrane recently) where I can hold my own. They're strong suits are their in game crysis management, and in game decision making. Compare that to me versus a bronze player, where I literally will win 99% of the time (no questions asked). On a new account, I will go ~22-3 vs diamond and below players until I hit masters MMR. The bronze player may have 20 old-sc2 apm, whereas I would have 180+. the difference is very, very large. Point being, people don't realize that the pro's are not untouchable. (edit: yes they will crush a non-pro most of the time, but the difference is much less than that of a master player to a bronze player.) On March 07 2012 17:20 Toppp wrote: Low Master > GM gap is giant, Mid Master > GM is pretty big, and High Master > GM isn't that large. . There's a few types of master players. There are the low master players, who got into master league doing 1 build (all in). The lowish-mid players who branched out a bid, and so on. A ~year ago I was that low master player, though nowadays I'm breaching into high masters MMR. The main difference is that I started playing ONLY to improve, so i started to understand the game (as I wasn't just doing a 2 base blink stalker all in vs zerg etc ;p). But I don't play that much (stopped playing for a few months here, and a few there, etc). And I think that massing games is required to get into "high masters", to experience every possible situation with your standard builds and from there never lose to worse opponents (which you can only learn from trial and error, ie massing ladder games or practice games). As a lot of pros (notable IdrA) have said, it comes down to practicing, a lot. | ||
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S2Lunar
1051 Posts
On March 07 2012 18:55 AegiS_ wrote: Completely untrue. I'm mid-high masters, I've beaten pros like QxG Darkcell on ladder when I go on a winstreak (he was on a losing streak, so our MMR's met and I beat him in a macro game.). My apm is higher than most pros, and my multi tasking is almost there. I've played several others in tournaments as well (FXOcrane recently) where I can hold my own. They're strong suits are their in game crysis management, and in game decision making. Compare that to me versus a bronze player, where I literally will win 99% of the time (no questions asked). On a new account, I will go ~22-3 vs diamond and below players until I hit masters MMR. The bronze player may have 20 old-sc2 apm, whereas I would have 180+. the difference is very, very large. Point being, people don't realize that the pro's are not untouchable. Not to upset you or anything, but QxGdarkcell isn't a pro. He doesn't play full time nor is he even GM. You would get stomped routinely by full time pros if you're mid-high masters on NA. | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
On March 07 2012 18:59 Toppp wrote: Not to upset you or anything, but QxGdarkcell isn't a pro. He doesn't play full time nor is he even GM. You would get stomped routinely by full time pros if you're mid-high masters on NA. played him in december or so, and he was GM NA the season right before that. he's on quantic O_o. not my overarching point nor do I give that win too much credit as he was on tilt. regardless, I've played a lot of pro's and I don't get "stomped". I should emphasize my mmr/skill level is more on the high end of masters. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
On March 07 2012 19:09 AegiS_ wrote: played him in december or so, and he was GM NA the season right before that. he's on quantic O_o. not my overarching point nor do I give that win too much credit as he was on tilt. regardless, I've played a lot of pro's and I don't get "stomped". I should emphasize my mmr/skill level is more on the high end of masters. Cmon u gotta admit your ego is a bit inflated since u haven't hit top high masters yet. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Gap between C and Grandmasters on sc2 ]x[ Gap between progamer and grandmasters ]xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[ Gap between C and bw progamer ]xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...*10[ I like this notation | ||
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TylerThaCreator
United States906 Posts
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
On March 08 2012 01:56 TylerThaCreator wrote: as someone who plays and beats"pro" players on ladder with some frequency I can tell you the difference between them and a high masters player like myself is really marginal. watching pro korean streamers only reinforces my belief that anyone can be pro if they set their mind to it. I don't your opinion matters since you're a centaur. jk hehe I think we should all keep in mind that there are varying degrees of "pro". We have some lackluster pros, performing poorly on a regular basis and then some pros who have obtained some sort of achievements. I dare say that there may be even some pros who only call themselves pro because they at the bare minimum, fit the definition of a pro player. With that in mind I would like to think that the gap between Top tier High Masters player to someone like MVP, is ridiculously huge. | ||
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany673 Posts
On March 08 2012 01:56 TylerThaCreator wrote: as someone who plays and beats"pro" players on ladder with some frequency I can tell you the difference between them and a high masters player like myself is really marginal. watching pro korean streamers only reinforces my belief that anyone can be pro if they set their mind to it. so you're saying that Mvp is not gigantically better than you, but just by a whole lot? i doubt it. | ||
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Brandish
United States339 Posts
On March 08 2012 00:35 BrTarolg wrote: Gap between D and C on iccup ]xxxxxxx[ Gap between C and Grandmasters on sc2 ]x[ Gap between progamer and grandmasters ]xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[ Gap between C and bw progamer ]xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...*10[ I like this notation lol I agree with the bw for sure, it took me forever to hit c- and as a sc2 player I hit a wall at low masters I'm so bad.. | ||
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TylerThaCreator
United States906 Posts
On March 08 2012 02:20 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: so you're saying that Mvp is not gigantically better than you, but just by a whole lot? i doubt it. sc2 has broken the mechanical barrier between koreans and foreigners. I probably would be lucky to take even a game off of a player of mvps caliber but a pro foreigner has a much better chance beating a korean in sc2 than in bw. | ||
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DueleR
United States207 Posts
On March 07 2012 08:47 HardlyNever wrote: Basically what I see are a lot of players that can do 1 single thing on a pro level sometimes. I'd put myself in this category as well. Maybe they have a particular build they are good at, and sometimes they really nail it. Maybe they have good stalker micro, and sometimes they do especially well with it in a game. It is about consistency as well. I floated around top masters on NA for a period of time last year and this is probably the most accurate description of how I felt about myself and the skill level of most of the players I faced on ladder. I had a few go-to builds I used for each match-up, and for all of them I had more or less "pro-level" timings. Like, I would watch a replay of myself and a replay of a pro executing the same build, and things would more or less line up 10-15 minutes into the game. This, plus decent micro, was enough to get me to high masters on NA. So basically, if you saw a good replay of mine, there wouldn't be much on the surface that you could use to differentiate my play from a pro's. But never once did I think I could actually be a pro, or compete with them on a consistent basis (and I felt the same way about most high masters on NA - I'm sure the Korean server would be different). I could take games off GMs and even a few mid-tier NA pros on teams, but I was severely lacking in many areas - creativity to come up with my own builds, decision-making in complicated/novel late-game situations, not falling apart in pressure sitautions, etc. Add to that the simple problem of stamina - I just didn't have the energy to "try" for more than 10-15 games a day, and when I played games past that limit the quality of my play deteriorated significantly. All this meant I eventually realized I never was going to break that high master's wall. Anyway, those qualities - poise, creativity, stamina, decision-making - I feel are what separates people like me (essentially copy machines that are decent enough at executing set builds) and people who have what it takes to make it to the next level with hard work. And of course, they're the same qualities that are important to succeeding in a tournament setting, which is where pros make their careers. | ||
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DueleR
United States207 Posts
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