• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 07:55
CET 13:55
KST 21:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
What's the best tug of war? The Grack before Christmas Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2?
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recommended FPV games (post-KeSPA) BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How Does UI/UX Design Influence User Trust? Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2005 users

Bronze Part 2: Hell is Other People - Page 10

Blogs > Gheed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 Next All
Silvertine
Profile Joined February 2012
United States509 Posts
February 20 2012 19:59 GMT
#181
On February 20 2012 08:59 Gheed wrote:
How the fuck can you not know why you did something?

Is that a serious question?
imbecile
Profile Joined October 2009
563 Posts
February 20 2012 20:00 GMT
#182
On February 21 2012 03:44 RyN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 03:13 imbecile wrote:
This article just demonstrates that the better players just cannot conceive that the most pressing problem, the thing bronze players struggle most with and that makes the game a an arduous exercise every second is basic interface use and unit control.

All those horrible things the good players see the bad players do and don't understand why: the reason is always because they struggle with basic button pressing and mouse clicking ad selection.

etc.


This post actually makes a lot of sense. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't true in the majority of these cases - what we (as relatively seasoned gamers) perceive as a mental inaptness could probably very well be physical - for us using the mouse and keyboard in the fashions that we do has long become second nature. This is not the case for everyone though - there's bound to be people like that that managed to get their hands on a copy of SC2 as well.


Another indicator that the main difference between the different skill levels is not strategy and game understanding but basic button pressing is that I used the same builds and strategies that I used in bronze in diamond too, just as successful (or unsuccessful, if you like).

People use 4gates, 6pools, cannon rushes in all leagues on all servers. The difference is not that one 4gate or 6pool or cannon rush is smarter than the other. The difference is one of them can press the buttons faster and more precisely.

I have seen professional playes say the most oblivious, uninformed and stupid things on basic game mechanics and unit abilities of their own races. The reason those are up there is not because they are smarter and more knowledgeable, but because they can press buttons better.
Demonhunter04
Profile Joined July 2011
1530 Posts
February 20 2012 20:12 GMT
#183
On February 21 2012 04:40 babylon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 03:21 THM wrote:
On February 20 2012 11:24 Kraidio wrote:
These blogs make me hate myself. The way those players are is exactly how I was when I first played the game. It took me from February of 2011 to July of 2011 to get out of bronze, and I still lost to worker rushes/six pools in Silver. I didn't know what A-move was until someone showed and told me how to do it.


I don't understand, if you didn't know what A-move is, then how did you tell your army to attack??

Did you just MOVE them to a certain location and then wait for them to see some bad guys and go after them :D :D :D

Individually target each unit?

I used to not know how to a-move in SCBW, so I would just select my units and right-click on the enemy units/buildings individually. Bear in mind that, well, I was in like ... 4th or 5th grade.


I dunno man, I played SC1 starting when I was in 5th grade and I figured out a lot of hotkeys and combos (such as shift + # to add to group, ctrl + # to create group, etc)....I actually read the command card though.
"If you don't drop sweat today, you will drop tears tomorrow" - SlayerSMMA
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
February 20 2012 20:15 GMT
#184
On February 21 2012 05:00 imbecile wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 03:44 RyN wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:13 imbecile wrote:
This article just demonstrates that the better players just cannot conceive that the most pressing problem, the thing bronze players struggle most with and that makes the game a an arduous exercise every second is basic interface use and unit control.

All those horrible things the good players see the bad players do and don't understand why: the reason is always because they struggle with basic button pressing and mouse clicking ad selection.

etc.


This post actually makes a lot of sense. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't true in the majority of these cases - what we (as relatively seasoned gamers) perceive as a mental inaptness could probably very well be physical - for us using the mouse and keyboard in the fashions that we do has long become second nature. This is not the case for everyone though - there's bound to be people like that that managed to get their hands on a copy of SC2 as well.


Another indicator that the main difference between the different skill levels is not strategy and game understanding but basic button pressing is that I used the same builds and strategies that I used in bronze in diamond too, just as successful (or unsuccessful, if you like).

People use 4gates, 6pools, cannon rushes in all leagues on all servers. The difference is not that one 4gate or 6pool or cannon rush is smarter than the other. The difference is one of them can press the buttons faster and more precisely.

I have seen professional playes say the most oblivious, uninformed and stupid things on basic game mechanics and unit abilities of their own races. The reason those are up there is not because they are smarter and more knowledgeable, but because they can press buttons better.

While your point has some merit - there's a reason that mechanics are drilled into every noob - mechanics alone don't mean everything. A GM's 4 gate doesn't show up 4 minutes earlier then a bronze's just because he clicks faster. What build you choose is almost as important as how you execute it.
Moderator
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3811 Posts
February 20 2012 20:20 GMT
#185
Obviously this should be spotlighted
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
Ordained
Profile Joined June 2010
United States779 Posts
February 20 2012 20:21 GMT
#186
This is brilliant. Eagerly awaiting the next.
"You are not trying to win, you are trying to be awesome" -Day[9]
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32097 Posts
February 20 2012 20:22 GMT
#187
Love this series, gheed
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
HackBenjamin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1094 Posts
February 20 2012 20:41 GMT
#188
On February 21 2012 04:32 Silv.user wrote:
Idont get it, u make bronze league more crappy with BM cocky vs opponents. And you clearly dont belong in bronze.

I'dont get it, your an jerk and people applaud?



Check out the following definitions:

Satire
Comedy
Social Experiments


Thanks
imbecile
Profile Joined October 2009
563 Posts
February 20 2012 20:43 GMT
#189
On February 21 2012 05:15 Myles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 05:00 imbecile wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:44 RyN wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:13 imbecile wrote:
This article just demonstrates that the better players just cannot conceive that the most pressing problem, the thing bronze players struggle most with and that makes the game a an arduous exercise every second is basic interface use and unit control.

All those horrible things the good players see the bad players do and don't understand why: the reason is always because they struggle with basic button pressing and mouse clicking ad selection.

etc.


This post actually makes a lot of sense. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't true in the majority of these cases - what we (as relatively seasoned gamers) perceive as a mental inaptness could probably very well be physical - for us using the mouse and keyboard in the fashions that we do has long become second nature. This is not the case for everyone though - there's bound to be people like that that managed to get their hands on a copy of SC2 as well.


Another indicator that the main difference between the different skill levels is not strategy and game understanding but basic button pressing is that I used the same builds and strategies that I used in bronze in diamond too, just as successful (or unsuccessful, if you like).

People use 4gates, 6pools, cannon rushes in all leagues on all servers. The difference is not that one 4gate or 6pool or cannon rush is smarter than the other. The difference is one of them can press the buttons faster and more precisely.

I have seen professional playes say the most oblivious, uninformed and stupid things on basic game mechanics and unit abilities of their own races. The reason those are up there is not because they are smarter and more knowledgeable, but because they can press buttons better.

While your point has some merit - there's a reason that mechanics are drilled into every noob - mechanics alone don't mean everything. A GM's 4 gate doesn't show up 4 minutes earlier then a bronze's just because he clicks faster. What build you choose is almost as important as how you execute it.


Sorry, gotta disagree here. When both players go gateway, assimilator, core, warpgate, all time differences are execution. There is no real room to rearrange or shift. And if you do, it always comes at some price and is a gamble. You can alleviate those risks by having good scouting and delaying your opponent: but both are things that require you to step up your mechanics several levels if you wanna do those and not fuck yourself over more than your opponent.

Now, I do agree that good strategy and smart risk taking can win you games. That's why my ZvZ was by far my best matchup depsite having dismal unit control and reaction times. I know I will never be able to consitently go above 30APM, simply because despite the thousands of games I played since the release, I only improved from about 15-20APM at the start to 30 in 2 weeks, and then was stuck there, no matter how much more I played and how much I tried. Not at my age. So eventually I started trying to find strategies that allow me to get away with this handicap most of the time.
Lolpuma
Profile Joined June 2010
United States17 Posts
February 20 2012 20:46 GMT
#190
I feel as if you are a prophet trying to lead the ignorant and the blind. Love the thread btw, very entertaining and... oddly informative
heha
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia425 Posts
February 20 2012 20:49 GMT
#191
Amazing, best one in the series yet. I like that you're actually trying to do something constructive with it now (educating the poor fools). Some (read most) of the reactions you've gotten are.... scary to say the least.

... Yeah, I can see how you can start to doubt humanity after this....
Random for life! phoneheha
zazone
Profile Joined April 2011
Romania460 Posts
February 20 2012 20:52 GMT
#192
Had a good read.This is brilliant
Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?-Adolf Hitler
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
February 20 2012 21:01 GMT
#193
On February 21 2012 05:43 imbecile wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 05:15 Myles wrote:
On February 21 2012 05:00 imbecile wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:44 RyN wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:13 imbecile wrote:
This article just demonstrates that the better players just cannot conceive that the most pressing problem, the thing bronze players struggle most with and that makes the game a an arduous exercise every second is basic interface use and unit control.

All those horrible things the good players see the bad players do and don't understand why: the reason is always because they struggle with basic button pressing and mouse clicking ad selection.

etc.


This post actually makes a lot of sense. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't true in the majority of these cases - what we (as relatively seasoned gamers) perceive as a mental inaptness could probably very well be physical - for us using the mouse and keyboard in the fashions that we do has long become second nature. This is not the case for everyone though - there's bound to be people like that that managed to get their hands on a copy of SC2 as well.


Another indicator that the main difference between the different skill levels is not strategy and game understanding but basic button pressing is that I used the same builds and strategies that I used in bronze in diamond too, just as successful (or unsuccessful, if you like).

People use 4gates, 6pools, cannon rushes in all leagues on all servers. The difference is not that one 4gate or 6pool or cannon rush is smarter than the other. The difference is one of them can press the buttons faster and more precisely.

I have seen professional playes say the most oblivious, uninformed and stupid things on basic game mechanics and unit abilities of their own races. The reason those are up there is not because they are smarter and more knowledgeable, but because they can press buttons better.

While your point has some merit - there's a reason that mechanics are drilled into every noob - mechanics alone don't mean everything. A GM's 4 gate doesn't show up 4 minutes earlier then a bronze's just because he clicks faster. What build you choose is almost as important as how you execute it.


Sorry, gotta disagree here. When both players go gateway, assimilator, core, warpgate, all time differences are execution. There is no real room to rearrange or shift. And if you do, it always comes at some price and is a gamble. You can alleviate those risks by having good scouting and delaying your opponent: but both are things that require you to step up your mechanics several levels if you wanna do those and not fuck yourself over more than your opponent.

Now, I do agree that good strategy and smart risk taking can win you games. That's why my ZvZ was by far my best matchup depsite having dismal unit control and reaction times. I know I will never be able to consitently go above 30APM, simply because despite the thousands of games I played since the release, I only improved from about 15-20APM at the start to 30 in 2 weeks, and then was stuck there, no matter how much more I played and how much I tried. Not at my age. So eventually I started trying to find strategies that allow me to get away with this handicap most of the time.


That's exactly most bronzes problem, they shouldn't rearrange or shift, but they do, probably without even realizing it. They don't properly choose OR execute a build, if they even have one in mind. And even if they have the proper 4 gate build, things like forgetting when to build/cut workers, forgetting to click warpgate, forgetting a forward pylon, none of these things require even average mechanics. I could execute a proper 4 gate with 15 apm, it just comes down to knowing when and where to place your attention.
Moderator
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
February 20 2012 21:02 GMT
#194
Modern art, i dare say
dr Helvetica <3
Hakanfrog
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden690 Posts
February 20 2012 21:12 GMT
#195
Fun read! In my bronze days I was surely quite dumb, but I´m not sure it was at this level.
Moggles
Profile Joined September 2011
1 Post
February 20 2012 21:28 GMT
#196
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 21 2012 03:13 imbecile wrote:
This article just demonstrates that the better players just cannot conceive that the most pressing problem, the thing bronze players struggle most with and that makes the game an arduous exercise every second is basic interface use and unit control.

All those horrible things the good players see the bad players do and don't understand why: the reason is always because they struggle with basic button pressing and mouse clicking and selection.

They build cannons for early defense because even badly placed cannons protect them several times better than any zealot controlled by them.

They don't scout because their control is so bad that they won't see anything before the unit dies.

They lose to worker rushes because selecting all workers and attack moving and focus firing requires a level of speed and precision that is inconcievable and unattainable for them. (I can't count the times when I tried to attack move my drones in response to a 6pool and instead attacked my hatch or pool with them).

This is the one thing better players just don't grasp. They are completely oblivious to the gravity of the problem that just basic interface use poses to the fine motor skills and concentration of the majority of people and just how much attention and effort it takes to locate something on the map, click it accurately, then then press the right buttons and click accurately on the map again.

Why they don't grasp it? Because those kinds of problems disappeared for them years ago when they played computer games with the mouse and keyboard more than 10 hours a day. They never meet and play against anyone for whom just a basic worker split is a risky undetaking that can lead to a mining loss of 10 seconds and more for half his workers.

Most people that try starcraft quickly give up again because they see that just learning the basic motor skills to quickly and accurately click units and the minimap would probably take them several weeks of hard practice for hours every day. People that played console games their who life, and only ever used the computer to browse the web or write documents with 2 fingers: sitting them in front of a starcraft game is like sitting them in front of a church organ.

The title of strategy game is very decieving for starcraft. Because the most basic and important skillset is not strategic thinking, or thinking at all. Not even close. The legions of horrible horrible players with maphacks and complete information is a testament to that. The ability to press the buttons or pluck the strings of the instrument is more important for a performer than any understanding of musical theory.

Virtually all losses at that stage are the result of misclicks and miscontrols. Either by a single big one that got punished horrribly, or by the accumulative effect many small errors provide. Just the simple act of sending out a scout and looking at it when it sees something can fumble your general control so much that you get supply blocked hard. Just building a refinery or putting workers on gas takes enough time for someone to kill all your workers at the natural. Hell, just moving the screen on the minimap or finding the right control group and pressing it twice takes enough time for someone to kill all your workers.

There are brilliant professional writers and good office clerks that write a lot every day for decades and still type with only 2 fingers. That's not because they are stupid. They simply don't have the motor skills. And their motor skills didn't improve much despite them typing for several hours every day for decades. Proper typing training at a much earlier stage would have helped them of course. But those kinds of people would never become a more than average typist.

If you pit a decent piano player against a decent chess player in SC2, or a decent Guitar Hero player against a decent HOMM player, the piano and guitar hero player probably will win the majority of the first 100 games they play.

I got to diamond as zerg for a brief time, and I never really get past 30 APM. Worker rushes, 6pools, cannon rushes, 2-gates, bunker rushes, early reapers are probably still the strategies I struggle the most with. Defending those successfully is more stressful and draining to me than defending 20minutes of constant drops, because of the fast and precise micro needed and the big impact even small slipups have that early in the game.

Well, now, I switched to terran. Still dropped to silver again. Why? Because I'm someone for whom it takes a day of playing before my basic control is good enough to not lose several SCVs to silver level worker harass while my barracks is building. And then it takes another day or two before I don't get heavily supply blocked while not losing any SCVs early. And then I don't play for a few days, and then it again takes a day of playing before I can reliably execute a build in the first 4 minutes of the game again.

Edit: as if to prove my point: the amount of typos in this post was staggering. Not because I don't know how to write the words. But because I pressed the wrong keys. And I'm someone who types several hours every day professionally for years. When typing you can proof read and correct. In starcraft you just lose.


This, a thousand times over.

I'm currently 30 years old and it took me 29 years to realise I've been playing RTS games in a stunted fashion for my whole life.

The basic macro game concepts such as build some kind of economy, build tech, build units, replace units that die were all present and I believe are there in all players who have a basic interest in playing the game. These are all simply tools and strategies that are available for a person to play with. It's the execution of the play that is the flaw.

My mind truely was truely blown by Starcraft 2. From my previous experiences with games like Age of Empires and Command and Conquer I understood that I needed hotkeys to keep my production flowing however I suddenly discovered that there was a whole other level to this type of game. Mutitasking, discovered by watching first person steams and vods of Starcraft 2.

I was playing around in a multitasking trainer map and I cannot truely describe the almost transcendent experience I felt the very first time I was moving my scout, monitoring constant probe production and then pressing 3-3BE to build a pylon back in base before hitting 1-1 to return to my scout to keep it moving, this all within the space of 1-2 seconds....!!?

Ureka! An entirely new dimension of RTS possibilities opened in my mind. It felt for a short while that all time had slowed down, maybe I was just thinking faster, remembering more. The timeline bars on the UI seemed to slow to a crawl. Each probe felt like 34 seconds build time. My macro and micro were still so sloppy but all this extra thinking time allowed me to shift focus to those things.

I hope that other people have at some point in their gaming life felt this moment. I would encourage anyone to work on their controls to get this feeling. When playing an RTS is no longer a single mouse click sim city turtle experience and you start to feel the deep level of control that is available to you. Go explore that fog of war it's yours for the taking.

I wonder how slowly progress bars move in the mind of a 400APM GSL champion.


TLDR: Learn how to control hotkeys, keyboard, mouse and UI fast and accurate. It will open a new dimension on your understanding of whats possible in an RTS.

imbecile
Profile Joined October 2009
563 Posts
February 20 2012 21:37 GMT
#197
On February 21 2012 06:01 Myles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 05:43 imbecile wrote:
On February 21 2012 05:15 Myles wrote:
On February 21 2012 05:00 imbecile wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:44 RyN wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:13 imbecile wrote:
This article just demonstrates that the better players just cannot conceive that the most pressing problem, the thing bronze players struggle most with and that makes the game a an arduous exercise every second is basic interface use and unit control.

All those horrible things the good players see the bad players do and don't understand why: the reason is always because they struggle with basic button pressing and mouse clicking ad selection.

etc.


This post actually makes a lot of sense. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't true in the majority of these cases - what we (as relatively seasoned gamers) perceive as a mental inaptness could probably very well be physical - for us using the mouse and keyboard in the fashions that we do has long become second nature. This is not the case for everyone though - there's bound to be people like that that managed to get their hands on a copy of SC2 as well.


Another indicator that the main difference between the different skill levels is not strategy and game understanding but basic button pressing is that I used the same builds and strategies that I used in bronze in diamond too, just as successful (or unsuccessful, if you like).

People use 4gates, 6pools, cannon rushes in all leagues on all servers. The difference is not that one 4gate or 6pool or cannon rush is smarter than the other. The difference is one of them can press the buttons faster and more precisely.

I have seen professional playes say the most oblivious, uninformed and stupid things on basic game mechanics and unit abilities of their own races. The reason those are up there is not because they are smarter and more knowledgeable, but because they can press buttons better.

While your point has some merit - there's a reason that mechanics are drilled into every noob - mechanics alone don't mean everything. A GM's 4 gate doesn't show up 4 minutes earlier then a bronze's just because he clicks faster. What build you choose is almost as important as how you execute it.


Sorry, gotta disagree here. When both players go gateway, assimilator, core, warpgate, all time differences are execution. There is no real room to rearrange or shift. And if you do, it always comes at some price and is a gamble. You can alleviate those risks by having good scouting and delaying your opponent: but both are things that require you to step up your mechanics several levels if you wanna do those and not fuck yourself over more than your opponent.

Now, I do agree that good strategy and smart risk taking can win you games. That's why my ZvZ was by far my best matchup depsite having dismal unit control and reaction times. I know I will never be able to consitently go above 30APM, simply because despite the thousands of games I played since the release, I only improved from about 15-20APM at the start to 30 in 2 weeks, and then was stuck there, no matter how much more I played and how much I tried. Not at my age. So eventually I started trying to find strategies that allow me to get away with this handicap most of the time.


That's exactly most bronzes problem, they shouldn't rearrange or shift, but they do, probably without even realizing it. They don't properly choose OR execute a build, if they even have one in mind. And even if they have the proper 4 gate build, things like forgetting when to build/cut workers, forgetting to click warpgate, forgetting a forward pylon, none of these things require even average mechanics. I could execute a proper 4 gate with 15 apm, it just comes down to knowing when and where to place your attention.


Sorry, it's not just know whem and where to place your attention. It's actually being able to shift that attention. The simplest worker harrass or just the pressence of a worker can completely fuck any one over who has to dedicate most of his consciousness to just selecting a worker at the right time. There is a reason cheese is so comon in the lower leagues: even if it was dismally executed and doesn't even kill much, it derails anyone with bad mechanics to a degreee they can't really recover from. Getting cannon rushed at that level means choosing between dying because the cannons get up or dying because you forgot to make an overlord or your queen or the pool or ling speed, simply because you are not able to take care of all this at the same time, because each of those takes you ages. There was a time when I consciously let my first scouting SCV die a lot of games because I simply couldn't look at it, save it and build my 3rd depot in time. Or how often I lost because I accidently made a drone too much, pressing the wrong key and my pool was too late because of it. Making an evo chamber instead of a pool happened a few times too. In an environment where more than 60% of the players cheese you within the first 5 minutes, any one of those little control errors can cost you a game immediately. And every low level player makes several of those every minute.

Not because they don't know better. Most of them have read forums, watched games and know build orders. A lot of them go even around asking on forums before they ever touch the game in multiplayer. You see several of those posts every day if you look. They just can't do it properly. To you it is trivial to make depots and scvs on time- you don't even think about it. To a bad player this is already too high level. They struggle already with selecting an SCV. They struggle already with sendign an SCV to a proper building place. They struggle already hitting build and build depot button. Or they use the mouse for it and take several seconds just to find the right icon. They can't worry much about hitting SCV and depot timings, because they have to worry about hitting keys.
Hyperionnn
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Turkey4968 Posts
February 20 2012 21:39 GMT
#198
you gotta have too much free time in your hands probably

still read both of your blogs, was pretty entertaining
jinglesassy
Profile Joined December 2011
United States15 Posts
February 20 2012 21:40 GMT
#199
Interesting read on the lowest of the low in bronze. Next blog you do though id like for you to find out how they know what glhf and gg means if they dont know about the pro scene and the community surrounding it.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 21:51:09
February 20 2012 21:50 GMT
#200
On February 21 2012 06:37 imbecile wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2012 06:01 Myles wrote:
On February 21 2012 05:43 imbecile wrote:
On February 21 2012 05:15 Myles wrote:
On February 21 2012 05:00 imbecile wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:44 RyN wrote:
On February 21 2012 03:13 imbecile wrote:
This article just demonstrates that the better players just cannot conceive that the most pressing problem, the thing bronze players struggle most with and that makes the game a an arduous exercise every second is basic interface use and unit control.

All those horrible things the good players see the bad players do and don't understand why: the reason is always because they struggle with basic button pressing and mouse clicking ad selection.

etc.


This post actually makes a lot of sense. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't true in the majority of these cases - what we (as relatively seasoned gamers) perceive as a mental inaptness could probably very well be physical - for us using the mouse and keyboard in the fashions that we do has long become second nature. This is not the case for everyone though - there's bound to be people like that that managed to get their hands on a copy of SC2 as well.


Another indicator that the main difference between the different skill levels is not strategy and game understanding but basic button pressing is that I used the same builds and strategies that I used in bronze in diamond too, just as successful (or unsuccessful, if you like).

People use 4gates, 6pools, cannon rushes in all leagues on all servers. The difference is not that one 4gate or 6pool or cannon rush is smarter than the other. The difference is one of them can press the buttons faster and more precisely.

I have seen professional playes say the most oblivious, uninformed and stupid things on basic game mechanics and unit abilities of their own races. The reason those are up there is not because they are smarter and more knowledgeable, but because they can press buttons better.

While your point has some merit - there's a reason that mechanics are drilled into every noob - mechanics alone don't mean everything. A GM's 4 gate doesn't show up 4 minutes earlier then a bronze's just because he clicks faster. What build you choose is almost as important as how you execute it.


Sorry, gotta disagree here. When both players go gateway, assimilator, core, warpgate, all time differences are execution. There is no real room to rearrange or shift. And if you do, it always comes at some price and is a gamble. You can alleviate those risks by having good scouting and delaying your opponent: but both are things that require you to step up your mechanics several levels if you wanna do those and not fuck yourself over more than your opponent.

Now, I do agree that good strategy and smart risk taking can win you games. That's why my ZvZ was by far my best matchup depsite having dismal unit control and reaction times. I know I will never be able to consitently go above 30APM, simply because despite the thousands of games I played since the release, I only improved from about 15-20APM at the start to 30 in 2 weeks, and then was stuck there, no matter how much more I played and how much I tried. Not at my age. So eventually I started trying to find strategies that allow me to get away with this handicap most of the time.


That's exactly most bronzes problem, they shouldn't rearrange or shift, but they do, probably without even realizing it. They don't properly choose OR execute a build, if they even have one in mind. And even if they have the proper 4 gate build, things like forgetting when to build/cut workers, forgetting to click warpgate, forgetting a forward pylon, none of these things require even average mechanics. I could execute a proper 4 gate with 15 apm, it just comes down to knowing when and where to place your attention.


Sorry, it's not just know whem and where to place your attention. It's actually being able to shift that attention. The simplest worker harrass or just the pressence of a worker can completely fuck any one over who has to dedicate most of his consciousness to just selecting a worker at the right time. There is a reason cheese is so comon in the lower leagues: even if it was dismally executed and doesn't even kill much, it derails anyone with bad mechanics to a degreee they can't really recover from. Getting cannon rushed at that level means choosing between dying because the cannons get up or dying because you forgot to make an overlord or your queen or the pool or ling speed, simply because you are not able to take care of all this at the same time, because each of those takes you ages. There was a time when I consciously let my first scouting SCV die a lot of games because I simply couldn't look at it, save it and build my 3rd depot in time. Or how often I lost because I accidently made a drone too much, pressing the wrong key and my pool was too late because of it. Making an evo chamber instead of a pool happened a few times too. In an environment where more than 60% of the players cheese you within the first 5 minutes, any one of those little control errors can cost you a game immediately. And every low level player makes several of those every minute.

Not because they don't know better. Most of them have read forums, watched games and know build orders. A lot of them go even around asking on forums before they ever touch the game in multiplayer. You see several of those posts every day if you look. They just can't do it properly. To you it is trivial to make depots and scvs on time- you don't even think about it. To a bad player this is already too high level. They struggle already with selecting an SCV. They struggle already with sendign an SCV to a proper building place. They struggle already hitting build and build depot button. Or they use the mouse for it and take several seconds just to find the right icon. They can't worry much about hitting SCV and depot timings, because they have to worry about hitting keys.

If they struggle just to select an scv and move it one place to another, then I question how they get anything done in life at all without having their hand held the entire time.

I say this because I was one of the bronze noobs. I started off in the beta with no previous rts experience. Over about 6 months I learned what was necessary to get me to borderline masters. I did this with about 60 apm. I see no reason why any normal human being can't do the same. Learn for your mistakes, develop a little bit of muscle memory, and learn to multitask a bit.

It's one thing to be losing to this kind of stuff your first few weeks, but after a while you should adapt. If you're still losing to bronze players doing horrible builds after hundreds of games, well, I think you need to take a hard look in the mirror because you either don't care enough to learn, or you have some other handicap that should probably be addressed. And I find it hard to believe that all these bronze players are handicapped.
Moderator
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 5m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 251
Creator 63
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 43019
Sea 6168
Rain 3252
Horang2 2082
PianO 1539
GuemChi 792
EffOrt 436
Mini 398
Soma 281
BeSt 215
[ Show more ]
firebathero 206
ggaemo 203
Mong 192
Snow 170
Light 137
ZerO 121
Rush 115
Sharp 109
Hyun 107
Mind 99
Zeus 81
Barracks 78
Dewaltoss 75
JYJ 66
Leta 51
Sea.KH 46
hero 46
scan(afreeca) 28
yabsab 22
NotJumperer 22
Shine 16
Sexy 15
Terrorterran 14
SilentControl 11
JulyZerg 8
Bale 7
Icarus 5
Dota 2
XcaliburYe504
Fuzer 199
League of Legends
C9.Mang0340
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2904
zeus323
shoxiejesuss234
edward1
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor153
Other Games
singsing2002
B2W.Neo1925
crisheroes284
XaKoH 172
ZerO(Twitch)20
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 5
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 56
• Light_VIP 14
• naamasc213
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
4h 5m
Elazer vs Nicoract
Reynor vs Scarlett
Replay Cast
11h 5m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 21h
Krystianer vs TBD
TriGGeR vs SKillous
Percival vs TBD
ByuN vs Nicoract
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
OSC
3 days
Solar vs MaxPax
ByuN vs Krystianer
Spirit vs TBD
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.