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On February 18 2012 05:12 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 04:52 getSome[703] wrote:On February 18 2012 04:00 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 00:01 peacenl wrote:On February 13 2012 15:08 TheToast wrote:On February 13 2012 14:47 getSome[703] wrote:On February 13 2012 13:11 EG.DeMoN wrote:
I wasn't aware of the situation myself until I realized from one of my viewers told me that my stream was disabled from TL. No need to flame me, I'll be more cautious about non-stop ad spam in the near future. By "near future," I hope you mean starting immediately and ending never... But don't worry I use adblock anyway I would point out that using ad block is just as bad as what they were doing. They're getting something for doing nothing, you're giving them nothing and getting something. We can not be forced to watch ads bro. If I can skip ads by looking/walking away and/or turning off sound, then you can also decide to not watch their stream anymore if its not showing anything interesting. This form of self regulation seems to work because it gives freedom to creativity. For example, some large tournaments use large breaks of over 30 mins and keep running the same ads, this even happens before the tournament starts. What you are imposing a new form a regulation where on the one side people will have to watch ads (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream), which is any advertisers (I am one of them) nightmare because "semi forced" supportive clicks and negative ad influence do not benefit them at all. And on the other side streamers are not able to bring up new creative sources of income, due to the strict regulation. Signs clearly saying "this stream is offline" and you still watching and complaining about ads seems incredibly out of this world to me. The stream might show online, but since you know for sure that the stream is offline you have the opportunity to leave. They should be able to run a stream like that all day, a beautiful thing called self regulation will show you that after a while people get sick of it, and they will never come back. This is perfect and needs not one bit of regulation. First, I'm not your bro. Second, this argument is illogical. No, sorry, this argument is bullshit. Yes, there is no guarentee that anyone is watching the advertisement; even with television people quite often get up to use the restroom, get a snack, etc. Advertisers know this, they're not stupid. They understand that a certain percentage of the audience recieving their ads are not watching them, my bet is that many ad agencies spend considerable time estimating this percentage and adjusting their pricing models respectively. That's not to say no one watches ads, occationally I will watch the ads when something looks interesting or grabs my attention; this is what advertisers count on. However if you have ad block on, they know that there is a 100% chance you are not seeing their advertisements, and will not pay out anything to the streamer for your view. Do you understand the the difference here? This has nothing to do with freedom or creativity. This has to do with ad-block users in essence stealing content from players. Many pros stream primarily as a means to get income and support themselves. They are providing you content and in turn your view provide them with some much needed extra cash. You want to talk about self regulation? If you are using ad-block, why should the players keep streaming? You'll self regulate player streams right into oblivion. (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream) What god given right do you have to watch their content without supporting them? Watching the ads takes NO effort on your part, and in return really helps some of these players stay afloat. I really, really hate to say this but it applies here: people like you are hurting esports. No one is asking you to click on the ads and buy the products (that would actually be illegal and against TOS), no one is even asking you to watch them--go get a snack who cares--but blocking them completely deprives players of revenue that they have EARNED by giving you good free content. The same god given right that allows progamers to stream music without compensating the artist to increase their stream numbers and hence their ad revenue. They are not just "using content without supporting" the artist, but are using it for their own commercial gain. Just saying. I'm not going to defend players over this. Eventually Twitch is going to get a cease and dissist from the MPAA and they are going to be forced to enforce it anyway, but still. (as an aside, I would actually prefer that streamers leave all music off, so I can listen to my own music and still get the game sounds)
Ok, so why should I go out of my way to make sure they make money off of the content they provide me when they don't extend the same courtesy to others?
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On February 18 2012 06:12 getSome[703] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 05:12 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 04:52 getSome[703] wrote:On February 18 2012 04:00 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 00:01 peacenl wrote:On February 13 2012 15:08 TheToast wrote:On February 13 2012 14:47 getSome[703] wrote:On February 13 2012 13:11 EG.DeMoN wrote:
I wasn't aware of the situation myself until I realized from one of my viewers told me that my stream was disabled from TL. No need to flame me, I'll be more cautious about non-stop ad spam in the near future. By "near future," I hope you mean starting immediately and ending never... But don't worry I use adblock anyway I would point out that using ad block is just as bad as what they were doing. They're getting something for doing nothing, you're giving them nothing and getting something. We can not be forced to watch ads bro. If I can skip ads by looking/walking away and/or turning off sound, then you can also decide to not watch their stream anymore if its not showing anything interesting. This form of self regulation seems to work because it gives freedom to creativity. For example, some large tournaments use large breaks of over 30 mins and keep running the same ads, this even happens before the tournament starts. What you are imposing a new form a regulation where on the one side people will have to watch ads (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream), which is any advertisers (I am one of them) nightmare because "semi forced" supportive clicks and negative ad influence do not benefit them at all. And on the other side streamers are not able to bring up new creative sources of income, due to the strict regulation. Signs clearly saying "this stream is offline" and you still watching and complaining about ads seems incredibly out of this world to me. The stream might show online, but since you know for sure that the stream is offline you have the opportunity to leave. They should be able to run a stream like that all day, a beautiful thing called self regulation will show you that after a while people get sick of it, and they will never come back. This is perfect and needs not one bit of regulation. First, I'm not your bro. Second, this argument is illogical. No, sorry, this argument is bullshit. Yes, there is no guarentee that anyone is watching the advertisement; even with television people quite often get up to use the restroom, get a snack, etc. Advertisers know this, they're not stupid. They understand that a certain percentage of the audience recieving their ads are not watching them, my bet is that many ad agencies spend considerable time estimating this percentage and adjusting their pricing models respectively. That's not to say no one watches ads, occationally I will watch the ads when something looks interesting or grabs my attention; this is what advertisers count on. However if you have ad block on, they know that there is a 100% chance you are not seeing their advertisements, and will not pay out anything to the streamer for your view. Do you understand the the difference here? This has nothing to do with freedom or creativity. This has to do with ad-block users in essence stealing content from players. Many pros stream primarily as a means to get income and support themselves. They are providing you content and in turn your view provide them with some much needed extra cash. You want to talk about self regulation? If you are using ad-block, why should the players keep streaming? You'll self regulate player streams right into oblivion. (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream) What god given right do you have to watch their content without supporting them? Watching the ads takes NO effort on your part, and in return really helps some of these players stay afloat. I really, really hate to say this but it applies here: people like you are hurting esports. No one is asking you to click on the ads and buy the products (that would actually be illegal and against TOS), no one is even asking you to watch them--go get a snack who cares--but blocking them completely deprives players of revenue that they have EARNED by giving you good free content. The same god given right that allows progamers to stream music without compensating the artist to increase their stream numbers and hence their ad revenue. They are not just "using content without supporting" the artist, but are using it for their own commercial gain. Just saying. I'm not going to defend players over this. Eventually Twitch is going to get a cease and dissist from the MPAA and they are going to be forced to enforce it anyway, but still. (as an aside, I would actually prefer that streamers leave all music off, so I can listen to my own music and still get the game sounds) Ok, so why should I go out of my way to make sure they make money off of the content they provide me when they don't extend the same courtesy to others?
This is a straw man argument. There is a gigantic difference between someone like Axslav (who just lost his team) and Sony Music Entertainment. If someone is streaming Sony's music online without payment, Sony isn't going to go out of business. Sony also has the facilities to take legal action and seek damages for the revenue. Someone like Axslav, if he doesn't get the ad revenue from his stream, may very well be forced out of pro-gaming. Again, I'm not going to defend players for restreaming music, but it's no justification for using ad-block.
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On February 13 2012 13:11 EG.DeMoN wrote:
I wasn't aware of the situation myself until I realized from one of my viewers told me that my stream was disabled from TL. No need to flame me, I'll be more cautious about non-stop ad spam in the near future.
more cautious not to get caught that is...
really stupid move
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It's kind of funny to see the words "more cautious" in regard to a full-blown premeditated "scam" which took some organization to throw together 
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On February 18 2012 04:00 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 00:01 peacenl wrote:On February 13 2012 15:08 TheToast wrote:On February 13 2012 14:47 getSome[703] wrote:On February 13 2012 13:11 EG.DeMoN wrote:
I wasn't aware of the situation myself until I realized from one of my viewers told me that my stream was disabled from TL. No need to flame me, I'll be more cautious about non-stop ad spam in the near future. By "near future," I hope you mean starting immediately and ending never... But don't worry I use adblock anyway I would point out that using ad block is just as bad as what they were doing. They're getting something for doing nothing, you're giving them nothing and getting something. We can not be forced to watch ads bro. If I can skip ads by looking/walking away and/or turning off sound, then you can also decide to not watch their stream anymore if its not showing anything interesting. This form of self regulation seems to work because it gives freedom to creativity. For example, some large tournaments use large breaks of over 30 mins and keep running the same ads, this even happens before the tournament starts. What you are imposing a new form a regulation where on the one side people will have to watch ads (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream), which is any advertisers (I am one of them) nightmare because "semi forced" supportive clicks and negative ad influence do not benefit them at all. And on the other side streamers are not able to bring up new creative sources of income, due to the strict regulation. Signs clearly saying "this stream is offline" and you still watching and complaining about ads seems incredibly out of this world to me. The stream might show online, but since you know for sure that the stream is offline you have the opportunity to leave. They should be able to run a stream like that all day, a beautiful thing called self regulation will show you that after a while people get sick of it, and they will never come back. This is perfect and needs not one bit of regulation. First, I'm not your bro.
First off, why not stop offending me when I'm friendly towards your person. Even though we don't agree, we can still respect one another.
Secondly, I'm just curious why are you saying I block ads? If I remember my own words correctly, I've mentioned that I'm ignoring (physical act) commercial streams for the large part when their ads are running.
The notion that one can hurt e-sports is a quite stretched one, because it tends to become a shelter for some of the commercial entities. It have seen it be used as an excuse to cover a gap in their revenue, while being reluctant to try and find new methods for advertising that are more effecient. I'm an advertiser and I know exactly how it works, people become ad blind after a while or they figure out a way to ignore ads. Especially forums, so I imagine this problem to be prevalent at TL. This is when someone has to go back to the drawing board. If, however publishers (streamers or a TL) see their profits go down, they need to find new ways similarly. They can also sit down and talk about how people are not watching their ads and not do a thing about it... or they can figure out new ways to generate income. Otherwise they should be aware of the fact that entrepreneurs need to push the envelope all the time, work their ass of to become succesful.
Something you are forgetting, many of the streamers are businesses (do not get carried away because their is a strong and large community around it), businesses adapt to changing environments, the ones that don't go bust.
Just to be clear, I am talking about commercial streamers, I agree 100% with you if there's actually a non commercial streamer providing good content out there, we should definitely support them by watching ads.
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On February 18 2012 08:29 peacenl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 04:00 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 00:01 peacenl wrote:On February 13 2012 15:08 TheToast wrote:On February 13 2012 14:47 getSome[703] wrote:On February 13 2012 13:11 EG.DeMoN wrote:
I wasn't aware of the situation myself until I realized from one of my viewers told me that my stream was disabled from TL. No need to flame me, I'll be more cautious about non-stop ad spam in the near future. By "near future," I hope you mean starting immediately and ending never... But don't worry I use adblock anyway I would point out that using ad block is just as bad as what they were doing. They're getting something for doing nothing, you're giving them nothing and getting something. We can not be forced to watch ads bro. If I can skip ads by looking/walking away and/or turning off sound, then you can also decide to not watch their stream anymore if its not showing anything interesting. This form of self regulation seems to work because it gives freedom to creativity. For example, some large tournaments use large breaks of over 30 mins and keep running the same ads, this even happens before the tournament starts. What you are imposing a new form a regulation where on the one side people will have to watch ads (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream), which is any advertisers (I am one of them) nightmare because "semi forced" supportive clicks and negative ad influence do not benefit them at all. And on the other side streamers are not able to bring up new creative sources of income, due to the strict regulation. Signs clearly saying "this stream is offline" and you still watching and complaining about ads seems incredibly out of this world to me. The stream might show online, but since you know for sure that the stream is offline you have the opportunity to leave. They should be able to run a stream like that all day, a beautiful thing called self regulation will show you that after a while people get sick of it, and they will never come back. This is perfect and needs not one bit of regulation. First, I'm not your bro. First off, why not stop offending me when I'm friendly towards your person. Even though we don't agree, we can still respect one another.
Your "bro" looked really sarcastic. If it wasn't intended to be, Toast can be easily forgiven for misinterpreting it. I don't think this part of your post is worth having a discussion over at all.
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On February 18 2012 08:32 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 08:29 peacenl wrote:On February 18 2012 04:00 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 00:01 peacenl wrote:On February 13 2012 15:08 TheToast wrote:On February 13 2012 14:47 getSome[703] wrote:On February 13 2012 13:11 EG.DeMoN wrote:
I wasn't aware of the situation myself until I realized from one of my viewers told me that my stream was disabled from TL. No need to flame me, I'll be more cautious about non-stop ad spam in the near future. By "near future," I hope you mean starting immediately and ending never... But don't worry I use adblock anyway I would point out that using ad block is just as bad as what they were doing. They're getting something for doing nothing, you're giving them nothing and getting something. We can not be forced to watch ads bro. If I can skip ads by looking/walking away and/or turning off sound, then you can also decide to not watch their stream anymore if its not showing anything interesting. This form of self regulation seems to work because it gives freedom to creativity. For example, some large tournaments use large breaks of over 30 mins and keep running the same ads, this even happens before the tournament starts. What you are imposing a new form a regulation where on the one side people will have to watch ads (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream), which is any advertisers (I am one of them) nightmare because "semi forced" supportive clicks and negative ad influence do not benefit them at all. And on the other side streamers are not able to bring up new creative sources of income, due to the strict regulation. Signs clearly saying "this stream is offline" and you still watching and complaining about ads seems incredibly out of this world to me. The stream might show online, but since you know for sure that the stream is offline you have the opportunity to leave. They should be able to run a stream like that all day, a beautiful thing called self regulation will show you that after a while people get sick of it, and they will never come back. This is perfect and needs not one bit of regulation. First, I'm not your bro. First off, why not stop offending me when I'm friendly towards your person. Even though we don't agree, we can still respect one another. Your "bro" looked really sarcastic. If it wasn't intended to be, Toast can be easily forgiven for misinterpreting it. I don't think this part of your post is worth having a discussion over at all.
You are right, it does seem like that, if I read it back 
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On February 18 2012 06:27 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 06:12 getSome[703] wrote:On February 18 2012 05:12 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 04:52 getSome[703] wrote:On February 18 2012 04:00 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 00:01 peacenl wrote:On February 13 2012 15:08 TheToast wrote:On February 13 2012 14:47 getSome[703] wrote:On February 13 2012 13:11 EG.DeMoN wrote:
I wasn't aware of the situation myself until I realized from one of my viewers told me that my stream was disabled from TL. No need to flame me, I'll be more cautious about non-stop ad spam in the near future. By "near future," I hope you mean starting immediately and ending never... But don't worry I use adblock anyway I would point out that using ad block is just as bad as what they were doing. They're getting something for doing nothing, you're giving them nothing and getting something. We can not be forced to watch ads bro. If I can skip ads by looking/walking away and/or turning off sound, then you can also decide to not watch their stream anymore if its not showing anything interesting. This form of self regulation seems to work because it gives freedom to creativity. For example, some large tournaments use large breaks of over 30 mins and keep running the same ads, this even happens before the tournament starts. What you are imposing a new form a regulation where on the one side people will have to watch ads (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream), which is any advertisers (I am one of them) nightmare because "semi forced" supportive clicks and negative ad influence do not benefit them at all. And on the other side streamers are not able to bring up new creative sources of income, due to the strict regulation. Signs clearly saying "this stream is offline" and you still watching and complaining about ads seems incredibly out of this world to me. The stream might show online, but since you know for sure that the stream is offline you have the opportunity to leave. They should be able to run a stream like that all day, a beautiful thing called self regulation will show you that after a while people get sick of it, and they will never come back. This is perfect and needs not one bit of regulation. First, I'm not your bro. Second, this argument is illogical. No, sorry, this argument is bullshit. Yes, there is no guarentee that anyone is watching the advertisement; even with television people quite often get up to use the restroom, get a snack, etc. Advertisers know this, they're not stupid. They understand that a certain percentage of the audience recieving their ads are not watching them, my bet is that many ad agencies spend considerable time estimating this percentage and adjusting their pricing models respectively. That's not to say no one watches ads, occationally I will watch the ads when something looks interesting or grabs my attention; this is what advertisers count on. However if you have ad block on, they know that there is a 100% chance you are not seeing their advertisements, and will not pay out anything to the streamer for your view. Do you understand the the difference here? This has nothing to do with freedom or creativity. This has to do with ad-block users in essence stealing content from players. Many pros stream primarily as a means to get income and support themselves. They are providing you content and in turn your view provide them with some much needed extra cash. You want to talk about self regulation? If you are using ad-block, why should the players keep streaming? You'll self regulate player streams right into oblivion. (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream) What god given right do you have to watch their content without supporting them? Watching the ads takes NO effort on your part, and in return really helps some of these players stay afloat. I really, really hate to say this but it applies here: people like you are hurting esports. No one is asking you to click on the ads and buy the products (that would actually be illegal and against TOS), no one is even asking you to watch them--go get a snack who cares--but blocking them completely deprives players of revenue that they have EARNED by giving you good free content. The same god given right that allows progamers to stream music without compensating the artist to increase their stream numbers and hence their ad revenue. They are not just "using content without supporting" the artist, but are using it for their own commercial gain. Just saying. I'm not going to defend players over this. Eventually Twitch is going to get a cease and dissist from the MPAA and they are going to be forced to enforce it anyway, but still. (as an aside, I would actually prefer that streamers leave all music off, so I can listen to my own music and still get the game sounds) Ok, so why should I go out of my way to make sure they make money off of the content they provide me when they don't extend the same courtesy to others? This is a straw man argument. There is a gigantic difference between someone like Axslav (who just lost his team) and Sony Music Entertainment. If someone is streaming Sony's music online without payment, Sony isn't going to go out of business. Sony also has the facilities to take legal action and seek damages for the revenue. Someone like Axslav, if he doesn't get the ad revenue from his stream, may very well be forced out of pro-gaming. Again, I'm not going to defend players for restreaming music, but it's no justification for using ad-block.
I don't think any progamers save a few would actually "go out of business" if people didn't watch their streams. Only a few make significant income from streaming.
Anyways, you've mentioned several times about "justification" for using ad-block. I'll answer your question directly. I don't use adblock because the ads can be repetitive, loud, and just plain annoying - even more so when I am trying to do homework while alt tabbing every now and then back to a game. I especially dislike when players whore ads. Using adblock is a legal (whereas streaming music is not) and convenient way to get around these issues. Sorry if I'm costing streamers 1 cent per commercial or whatever it is. What more justification do I need? Wouldn't you decline to view commercials on television if you had the option to?
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On February 18 2012 12:09 getSome[703] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 06:27 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 06:12 getSome[703] wrote:On February 18 2012 05:12 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 04:52 getSome[703] wrote:On February 18 2012 04:00 TheToast wrote:On February 18 2012 00:01 peacenl wrote:On February 13 2012 15:08 TheToast wrote:On February 13 2012 14:47 getSome[703] wrote:On February 13 2012 13:11 EG.DeMoN wrote:
I wasn't aware of the situation myself until I realized from one of my viewers told me that my stream was disabled from TL. No need to flame me, I'll be more cautious about non-stop ad spam in the near future. By "near future," I hope you mean starting immediately and ending never... But don't worry I use adblock anyway I would point out that using ad block is just as bad as what they were doing. They're getting something for doing nothing, you're giving them nothing and getting something. We can not be forced to watch ads bro. If I can skip ads by looking/walking away and/or turning off sound, then you can also decide to not watch their stream anymore if its not showing anything interesting. This form of self regulation seems to work because it gives freedom to creativity. For example, some large tournaments use large breaks of over 30 mins and keep running the same ads, this even happens before the tournament starts. What you are imposing a new form a regulation where on the one side people will have to watch ads (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream), which is any advertisers (I am one of them) nightmare because "semi forced" supportive clicks and negative ad influence do not benefit them at all. And on the other side streamers are not able to bring up new creative sources of income, due to the strict regulation. Signs clearly saying "this stream is offline" and you still watching and complaining about ads seems incredibly out of this world to me. The stream might show online, but since you know for sure that the stream is offline you have the opportunity to leave. They should be able to run a stream like that all day, a beautiful thing called self regulation will show you that after a while people get sick of it, and they will never come back. This is perfect and needs not one bit of regulation. First, I'm not your bro. Second, this argument is illogical. No, sorry, this argument is bullshit. Yes, there is no guarentee that anyone is watching the advertisement; even with television people quite often get up to use the restroom, get a snack, etc. Advertisers know this, they're not stupid. They understand that a certain percentage of the audience recieving their ads are not watching them, my bet is that many ad agencies spend considerable time estimating this percentage and adjusting their pricing models respectively. That's not to say no one watches ads, occationally I will watch the ads when something looks interesting or grabs my attention; this is what advertisers count on. However if you have ad block on, they know that there is a 100% chance you are not seeing their advertisements, and will not pay out anything to the streamer for your view. Do you understand the the difference here? This has nothing to do with freedom or creativity. This has to do with ad-block users in essence stealing content from players. Many pros stream primarily as a means to get income and support themselves. They are providing you content and in turn your view provide them with some much needed extra cash. You want to talk about self regulation? If you are using ad-block, why should the players keep streaming? You'll self regulate player streams right into oblivion. (seriously you can not force anyone to watch ads and deprive them of their freedom because they are watching a stream) What god given right do you have to watch their content without supporting them? Watching the ads takes NO effort on your part, and in return really helps some of these players stay afloat. I really, really hate to say this but it applies here: people like you are hurting esports. No one is asking you to click on the ads and buy the products (that would actually be illegal and against TOS), no one is even asking you to watch them--go get a snack who cares--but blocking them completely deprives players of revenue that they have EARNED by giving you good free content. The same god given right that allows progamers to stream music without compensating the artist to increase their stream numbers and hence their ad revenue. They are not just "using content without supporting" the artist, but are using it for their own commercial gain. Just saying. I'm not going to defend players over this. Eventually Twitch is going to get a cease and dissist from the MPAA and they are going to be forced to enforce it anyway, but still. (as an aside, I would actually prefer that streamers leave all music off, so I can listen to my own music and still get the game sounds) Ok, so why should I go out of my way to make sure they make money off of the content they provide me when they don't extend the same courtesy to others? This is a straw man argument. There is a gigantic difference between someone like Axslav (who just lost his team) and Sony Music Entertainment. If someone is streaming Sony's music online without payment, Sony isn't going to go out of business. Sony also has the facilities to take legal action and seek damages for the revenue. Someone like Axslav, if he doesn't get the ad revenue from his stream, may very well be forced out of pro-gaming. Again, I'm not going to defend players for restreaming music, but it's no justification for using ad-block. I don't think any progamers save a few would actually "go out of business" if people didn't watch their streams. Only a few make significant income from streaming.
On the contrary, most pro-gamers don't even hit the poverty line when it comes to income. An extra $50-$100 a month goes a very, very, very long way.
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EPT
