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I know on ladder it's ok to do this because you're playing random people and they won't know what build you're doing, but against players in a BoX series, is it possible to go 1 rax expo every game and win? Is it possible to get so good at defending all the pressures or all ins that you can do this every single game?
Stupid question, I know, I was just curious. 
 
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I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy!
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Try it out in a bo5 against all three races. That's a better answer than whatever you will get here.
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It's a safe build as long as you bunker up appropriately and don't get too greedy. I think the truly only troublesome build that can kill you with gratuitous bunkers up front is blink stalkers.
But yeah, just try it a lot, I see nothing wrong with it.
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If Boxer can bunker rush x3 in a row and win then this can work too :D
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1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter.
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Just don't forget the bunkers 
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There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage.
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On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage.
On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy!
Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway.
1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades...
Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it.
On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter.
That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in.
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On February 04 2012 17:09 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage. Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy! Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway. 1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades... Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it. Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter. That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in.
Not everything is defendable with a 1rax expo. If it were, we'd see pros 1rax expo or cheese every game. We don't.
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On February 04 2012 18:29 ManicMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 17:09 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage. On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy! Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway. 1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades... Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it. On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter. That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in. Not everything is defendable with a 1rax expo. If it were, we'd see pros 1rax expo or cheese every game. We don't.
But that's not true at all. Everything can be defendable doesn't mean you only 1 rax expo every game. I would say 1 rax fe is safe vs anything as long as you can scout it and what not but you don't have to do it everygame that was a silly statement there is a reason there are other builds to put pressure because thats your style or whatever I could go on.
In short in at least tvz you could go 1 rax fe every game and be fine, I don't know about tvp or tvt.
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On February 04 2012 18:38 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 18:29 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 17:09 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage. On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy! The question was 'can you 1rax expand every game in a BoX?" If they know you're going to 1rax expand they can easily do a counter it. Of course you can't go into every game saying that you need to prepare for everything. But if they know what your going to do there's a wide number of cheeses they can do to hardcounter, which is my point. Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway. 1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades... Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it. On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter. That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in. Not everything is defendable with a 1rax expo. If it were, we'd see pros 1rax expo or cheese every game. We don't. But that's not true at all. Everything can be defendable doesn't mean you only 1 rax expo every game. I would say 1 rax fe is safe vs anything as long as you can scout it and what not but you don't have to do it everygame that was a silly statement there is a reason there are other builds to put pressure because thats your style or whatever I could go on. In short in at least tvz you could go 1 rax fe every game and be fine, I don't know about tvp or tvt.
The question was whether you could do it in every game in a BoX. My point was that if they know you're going to 1rax expand, there's a wide number of cheeses which can hard counter it. Of course you can't prepare for everything every game, but thats not the point.
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On February 04 2012 18:51 ManicMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 18:38 blade55555 wrote:On February 04 2012 18:29 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 17:09 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage. On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy! The question was 'can you 1rax expand every game in a BoX?" If they know you're going to 1rax expand they can easily do a counter it. Of course you can't go into every game saying that you need to prepare for everything. But if they know what your going to do there's a wide number of cheeses they can do to hardcounter, which is my point. Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway. 1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades... Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it. On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter. That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in. Not everything is defendable with a 1rax expo. If it were, we'd see pros 1rax expo or cheese every game. We don't. But that's not true at all. Everything can be defendable doesn't mean you only 1 rax expo every game. I would say 1 rax fe is safe vs anything as long as you can scout it and what not but you don't have to do it everygame that was a silly statement there is a reason there are other builds to put pressure because thats your style or whatever I could go on. In short in at least tvz you could go 1 rax fe every game and be fine, I don't know about tvp or tvt. The question was whether you could do it in every game in a BoX. My point was that if they know you're going to 1rax expand, there's a wide number of cheeses which can hard counter it. Of course you can't prepare for everything every game, but thats not the point.
everything scouted is defendable in every match up with a 1rax FE. If you're bad with your scouting you should question it, not the build.
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On February 04 2012 18:59 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 18:51 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 18:38 blade55555 wrote:On February 04 2012 18:29 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 17:09 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage. On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy! The question was 'can you 1rax expand every game in a BoX?" If they know you're going to 1rax expand they can easily do a counter it. Of course you can't go into every game saying that you need to prepare for everything. But if they know what your going to do there's a wide number of cheeses they can do to hardcounter, which is my point. Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway. 1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades... Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it. On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter. That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in. Not everything is defendable with a 1rax expo. If it were, we'd see pros 1rax expo or cheese every game. We don't. But that's not true at all. Everything can be defendable doesn't mean you only 1 rax expo every game. I would say 1 rax fe is safe vs anything as long as you can scout it and what not but you don't have to do it everygame that was a silly statement there is a reason there are other builds to put pressure because thats your style or whatever I could go on. In short in at least tvz you could go 1 rax fe every game and be fine, I don't know about tvp or tvt. The question was whether you could do it in every game in a BoX. My point was that if they know you're going to 1rax expand, there's a wide number of cheeses which can hard counter it. Of course you can't prepare for everything every game, but thats not the point. everything scouted is defendable in every match up with a 1rax FE. If you're bad with your scouting you should question it, not the build.
Not everything is scoutable. Proxy anything is hard to scout, particularly if your opponent is active in denying you map control. Even if you scan his base, most mains are large enough that you need 2 scans to cover it all. So you scan twice, and see nothing. Perhaps he proxied something. Doesn't even need to proxy it, just build it slightly outside his base so you can't see it with a scan and it's protected by his army, which isn't in an unusual position. You can't always get perfect information, as Artosis says, Starcraft is a game of imperfect information. You wont always be able to find out what your opponent is doing. Even if you do scout it, you'll often need MKP's level of micro to defend it. Unless you're a pro, you will often just die to it.
You don't have any basis for saying that everything is scoutable, this is simply not true. If it were, the pros would have perfect scouting and would never be caught off guard by anything. I don't even agree with your assertion that everything scouted is defendable with a 1rax FE. Maybe it's true in theory (which is a pretty big assertion in itself), but in practice you'd need MKP level micro to defend it. Unless you're GM level, i don't recommend simply 1rax expanding every game in a BoX, it's simply too easy for your opponent to punish.
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On February 04 2012 19:24 ManicMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 18:59 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 18:51 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 18:38 blade55555 wrote:On February 04 2012 18:29 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 17:09 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage. On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy! The question was 'can you 1rax expand every game in a BoX?" If they know you're going to 1rax expand they can easily do a counter it. Of course you can't go into every game saying that you need to prepare for everything. But if they know what your going to do there's a wide number of cheeses they can do to hardcounter, which is my point. Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway. 1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades... Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it. On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter. That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in. Not everything is defendable with a 1rax expo. If it were, we'd see pros 1rax expo or cheese every game. We don't. But that's not true at all. Everything can be defendable doesn't mean you only 1 rax expo every game. I would say 1 rax fe is safe vs anything as long as you can scout it and what not but you don't have to do it everygame that was a silly statement there is a reason there are other builds to put pressure because thats your style or whatever I could go on. In short in at least tvz you could go 1 rax fe every game and be fine, I don't know about tvp or tvt. The question was whether you could do it in every game in a BoX. My point was that if they know you're going to 1rax expand, there's a wide number of cheeses which can hard counter it. Of course you can't prepare for everything every game, but thats not the point. everything scouted is defendable in every match up with a 1rax FE. If you're bad with your scouting you should question it, not the build. Not everything is scoutable. Proxy anything is hard to scout, particularly if your opponent is active in denying you map control. Even if you scan his base, most mains are large enough that you need 2 scans to cover it all. So you scan twice, and see nothing. Perhaps he proxied something. Doesn't even need to proxy it, just build it slightly outside his base so you can't see it with a scan and it's protected by his army, which isn't in an unusual position. You can't always get perfect information, as Artosis says, Starcraft is a game of imperfect information. You wont always be able to find out what your opponent is doing. Even if you do scout it, you'll often need MKP's level of micro to defend it. Unless you're a pro, you will often just die to it. You don't have any basis for saying that everything is scoutable, this is simply not true. If it were, the pros would have perfect scouting and would never be caught off guard by anything. I don't even agree with your assertion that everything scouted is defendable with a 1rax FE. Maybe it's true in theory (which is a pretty big assertion in itself), but in practice you'd need MKP level micro to defend it. Unless you're GM level, i don't recommend simply 1rax expanding every game in a BoX, it's simply too easy for your opponent to punish.
I think you might be right. It's best to switch it up a bit just so that your oppponent doesn't predicate your actions and take advantage of it. But it really depends on how good you are.
I can't comment on how to defend agression with a 1 rax but as a protoss I can tell you that learning how to hold off things like well executed 3 rax stim allins with a 1 gate fe was not easy. Not only does it require good forcefields but also a watertight unit composition and the right probe cuts. I doubt NA plats would be able to adapt and execute at that level.
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On February 04 2012 19:46 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 19:24 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 18:59 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 18:51 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 18:38 blade55555 wrote:On February 04 2012 18:29 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 17:09 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage. On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy! The question was 'can you 1rax expand every game in a BoX?" If they know you're going to 1rax expand they can easily do a counter it. Of course you can't go into every game saying that you need to prepare for everything. But if they know what your going to do there's a wide number of cheeses they can do to hardcounter, which is my point. Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway. 1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades... Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it. On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter. That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in. Not everything is defendable with a 1rax expo. If it were, we'd see pros 1rax expo or cheese every game. We don't. But that's not true at all. Everything can be defendable doesn't mean you only 1 rax expo every game. I would say 1 rax fe is safe vs anything as long as you can scout it and what not but you don't have to do it everygame that was a silly statement there is a reason there are other builds to put pressure because thats your style or whatever I could go on. In short in at least tvz you could go 1 rax fe every game and be fine, I don't know about tvp or tvt. The question was whether you could do it in every game in a BoX. My point was that if they know you're going to 1rax expand, there's a wide number of cheeses which can hard counter it. Of course you can't prepare for everything every game, but thats not the point. everything scouted is defendable in every match up with a 1rax FE. If you're bad with your scouting you should question it, not the build. Not everything is scoutable. Proxy anything is hard to scout, particularly if your opponent is active in denying you map control. Even if you scan his base, most mains are large enough that you need 2 scans to cover it all. So you scan twice, and see nothing. Perhaps he proxied something. Doesn't even need to proxy it, just build it slightly outside his base so you can't see it with a scan and it's protected by his army, which isn't in an unusual position. You can't always get perfect information, as Artosis says, Starcraft is a game of imperfect information. You wont always be able to find out what your opponent is doing. Even if you do scout it, you'll often need MKP's level of micro to defend it. Unless you're a pro, you will often just die to it. You don't have any basis for saying that everything is scoutable, this is simply not true. If it were, the pros would have perfect scouting and would never be caught off guard by anything. I don't even agree with your assertion that everything scouted is defendable with a 1rax FE. Maybe it's true in theory (which is a pretty big assertion in itself), but in practice you'd need MKP level micro to defend it. Unless you're GM level, i don't recommend simply 1rax expanding every game in a BoX, it's simply too easy for your opponent to punish. I think you might be right. It's best to switch it up a bit just so that your oppponent doesn't predicate your actions and take advantage of it. But it really depends on how good you are. I can't comment on how to defend agression with a 1 rax but as a protoss I can tell you that learning how to hold off things like well executed 3 rax stim allins with a 1 gate fe was not easy. Not only does it require good forcefields but also a watertight unit composition and the right probe cuts. I doubt NA plats would be able to adapt and execute at that level.
Regarding toss, 2bases all in are way scarier, but on 1base honnestly, 3g robo and 3g vr are the only scary thing. 4g warp prism is a joke, 4g... well if he proxies a pylon at a cliff/in your base you can just blame yourself, dt is the easiest thing to predict so that's not a problem.
3g vr, you just have to look at tassadar :D and i think that 3g robo is definitely common.
Z, well, bling bust and roach/bling/ling, it depends of your build order, but a greedy build after 1rax FE will probably die, other builds give you a free win.
T, proxy facto/port are annoying but scoutable, the positions are often fairly obvious. Then it's mostly map dependant and you rely on really good decisions (2gaz : which add ons, 3rax : stim or cs, how many turrets etc...).
@ManicMarine: your answer prove that you don't really know what to scout. A simple view on a toss army early game is a pretty big deal, and gives you a lot of intel. Same for the marine count, the drone count, or simply the creep spread. Everything you see is a hint, it might be done in order to trick you but there are clear clues (sentry count for dt ie). And there is no way for a toss to do zealot/stalker pressure en prevent you to scout at the same time in early game so you either give a look at his base or check for proxies, especially this fucking pylon.
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On February 04 2012 20:09 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 19:46 Selendis wrote:On February 04 2012 19:24 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 18:59 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 18:51 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 18:38 blade55555 wrote:On February 04 2012 18:29 ManicMarine wrote:On February 04 2012 17:09 sAsImre wrote:On February 04 2012 17:01 ManicMarine wrote:
There are certain cheeses which will break you, even if you have gosu micro.
4gate robo with warp prism, 4gate blink, quick nydus, certain baneling bust timings, 1/1/1 marine tank banshee to name a few.
If your opponent controls correctly these are pretty much impossible to hold, the protoss ones in particular are dangerous because they circumnavigate your bunkers, which are crucial to holding any attacks. Don't do the same build every game in a BoX, it simply gives your opponent too much of an advantage. On February 04 2012 16:24 rebuffering wrote:
I think the problem is this, sure you can get good enough hold off any cheeses or rushes. But if they understand that your just going to go for FE's everygame, then they will just take an extra base, and theres not much your going to about it. I think the main problem tho is that you will be playing overly safe, since you dont want to lose to any early cheese, your bascially going to have to FE, get tier 1 units, get an Ebay, get turrets/bunkers up, and if they never attack you, well then your behind since they will just be even greedier. I think 1 Rax FE is best Vs Toss, but it requires alot of good scouting, since they can have likr 5+ all ins they can kill you with, and just going into everygame saying "il just prepare for every possible cheese" will get you behind IMO.
Well thats my opinion. enjoy! The question was 'can you 1rax expand every game in a BoX?" If they know you're going to 1rax expand they can easily do a counter it. Of course you can't go into every game saying that you need to prepare for everything. But if they know what your going to do there's a wide number of cheeses they can do to hardcounter, which is my point. Everything is defendable. You need to get good at reading your opponents build, at scouting and having luck/star sense. But seriously scouting is everything, if you scout well (or simply know your scan timings, tvt :p) there will not be more than 1 or 2 all ins you'd have to prepare. And you need a bunker anyway. 1rax FE isn't a build btw, it's an opening. You can get away by doing it gasless everytime, but then it'd be better to do some scv/marines all in from time to time to keep your opponent honnest in the early game. Then you need variations which aimed at either greedy or timing oriented builds. For exemple after a 1rax FE in TvP you could do : 4/5 rax marines, 3/4 rax ghost, a fast third, fast medivacs, 3rax + upgrades... Sometimes it's better to do a 14CC too, ie on TDA against zerg, if you intend to be greedy, just go for it. On February 04 2012 16:58 Selendis wrote:
1 rax fe is pretty safe in PvT imho.
If I was up against nothing but 1 rax fe in a box series I would resort to going nexus first every game, but as you know this is only a soft counter. That's the time when you throw down three other raxes What's really nice with a 1rax FE without gas is that you have the possibility to go for some pressure/a random all in. Not everything is defendable with a 1rax expo. If it were, we'd see pros 1rax expo or cheese every game. We don't. But that's not true at all. Everything can be defendable doesn't mean you only 1 rax expo every game. I would say 1 rax fe is safe vs anything as long as you can scout it and what not but you don't have to do it everygame that was a silly statement there is a reason there are other builds to put pressure because thats your style or whatever I could go on. In short in at least tvz you could go 1 rax fe every game and be fine, I don't know about tvp or tvt. The question was whether you could do it in every game in a BoX. My point was that if they know you're going to 1rax expand, there's a wide number of cheeses which can hard counter it. Of course you can't prepare for everything every game, but thats not the point. everything scouted is defendable in every match up with a 1rax FE. If you're bad with your scouting you should question it, not the build. Not everything is scoutable. Proxy anything is hard to scout, particularly if your opponent is active in denying you map control. Even if you scan his base, most mains are large enough that you need 2 scans to cover it all. So you scan twice, and see nothing. Perhaps he proxied something. Doesn't even need to proxy it, just build it slightly outside his base so you can't see it with a scan and it's protected by his army, which isn't in an unusual position. You can't always get perfect information, as Artosis says, Starcraft is a game of imperfect information. You wont always be able to find out what your opponent is doing. Even if you do scout it, you'll often need MKP's level of micro to defend it. Unless you're a pro, you will often just die to it. You don't have any basis for saying that everything is scoutable, this is simply not true. If it were, the pros would have perfect scouting and would never be caught off guard by anything. I don't even agree with your assertion that everything scouted is defendable with a 1rax FE. Maybe it's true in theory (which is a pretty big assertion in itself), but in practice you'd need MKP level micro to defend it. Unless you're GM level, i don't recommend simply 1rax expanding every game in a BoX, it's simply too easy for your opponent to punish. I think you might be right. It's best to switch it up a bit just so that your oppponent doesn't predicate your actions and take advantage of it. But it really depends on how good you are. I can't comment on how to defend agression with a 1 rax but as a protoss I can tell you that learning how to hold off things like well executed 3 rax stim allins with a 1 gate fe was not easy. Not only does it require good forcefields but also a watertight unit composition and the right probe cuts. I doubt NA plats would be able to adapt and execute at that level. Regarding toss, 2bases all in are way scarier, but on 1base honnestly, 3g robo and 3g vr are the only scary thing. 4g warp prism is a joke, 4g... well if he proxies a pylon at a cliff/in your base you can just blame yourself, dt is the easiest thing to predict so that's not a problem. 3g vr, you just have to look at tassadar :D and i think that 3g robo is definitely common. Z, well, bling bust and roach/bling/ling, it depends of your build order, but a greedy build after 1rax FE will probably die, other builds give you a free win. T, proxy facto/port are annoying but scoutable, the positions are often fairly obvious. Then it's mostly map dependant and you rely on really good decisions (2gaz : which add ons, 3rax : stim or cs, how many turrets etc...). @ManicMarine: your answer prove that you don't really know what to scout. A simple view on a toss army early game is a pretty big deal, and gives you a lot of intel. Same for the marine count, the drone count, or simply the creep spread. Everything you see is a hint, it might be done in order to trick you but there are clear clues (sentry count for dt ie). And there is no way for a toss to do zealot/stalker pressure en prevent you to scout at the same time in early game so you either give a look at his base or check for proxies, especially this fucking pylon.
Protoss makes a single stalker and puts it at a watchtower, boom he can prevent a lot of scouting. You can't move out cos a couple of stalkers will be able to do damage to marines and then retreat ad-infinitum, and if you try to evict him from the watch tower you're taking a very big risk in assuming that your army isn't just going to get caught and die.
Yes, having a look at the protoss army can give you a lot of intel. But how are you going to get that look? You can't scout by attacking because if you attack and he's doing any sort of 1 base play you'll get crushed and lose all your units. Your scouting scv is killed by the first stalker, and as i said above any subsequent scouting scv can be denied pretty easily by the protoss. A scan is no guarantee that you'll see the army. Also, I don't see why his zealot/stalker pressure isn't going to stop you scouting. He runs up your ramp, there's a bunker, he runs back down. He has map control and can pick of any units which try to scout.
You also seem to be underestimating the number of 1 base plays protoss can make. You only list 3gate VR and 3gate robo, but 4gate warp prism, 4gate blink and 3gate DTs are all viable builds. 4gate warp prism in particular is a very strong build that you dismiss at your peril; bunkers are so important in defending 1base protoss pushes and if he can simply circumvent your bunkers you're in for a world of trouble. It's hard as hell to survive when he drops 4 sentries in your main and warps in 4 zealots to back them up, then force fields your ramp forever so you can't defend. I agree that you can get turrets up in time for DTs, but building a ebay fast enough to get those turrets up leaves you vulnerable if he decides to 3gate robo rather than DT. I'm not saying that it's impossible to hold in this situation but as a masters terran player I can say that it's sure as hell not easy.
In any case playing a BoX, particularly against someone you know can leave you vulnerable to being metagamed. You scanned 2 gas so prepared for tech, but he 4gated you instead because he knew you'd think he'd be teching. Using the same opener over and over in a BoX removes one of the greatest advantages you have at the beginning of any game of SCII: Unpredictability. By being predictable you leave yourself open to be hard countered or metagamed.
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