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Ok so it's not really new, Tossers have been nexus firsting ever since brood war. But is a fast expansion really that greedy? These days fast expansion builds are bread and butter for most ladder-lads.
Last time I covered my latest adopted pvt build. As I had discovered, 3gate void ray all in was the perfect counter to a CC first and even to this day I haven't lost against a CC first with it.
But what about 1 rax FE? Generally with a 1 Rax FE, by the time I scout it out, my nexus has already been planted. I'm too much of a miser to lose out on 100 minerals because of a cancel, and I'm not sure an all in off one base is the answer against 1 rax fe anyway.
So usually I respond with a slow tech up to collosus with double upps if I think I can get away with it and then go into my long pvt macro mode. Sometimes I win through superior macro and strategic tech switches into templar, other times I get dropped into obivion.
So last time I watched parting on IPL TAC 2 I was thinking to myself (ok fe vs fe let's see how this pans out, will he go for collosi or templar?). To my surprise, he went neither, he chose option 3. An option which surprised and astounded me.
He chose: NEXUS.
That's right, his BO was gate-nexus-nexus->a metric ton of gateways
He then put up a proxy pylon and stomped his opponent with unupgraded zealots, stalkers and sentries.
I was inspired but alas, my laddering over the weekend was filled with unorthodox pvps and pvz. Until this morning when I woke up, proxygated a zerg and got qq'd at and then the matchmaker delivered my next victim who would fall prey to my hastily and shoddily mimicked new korean bo.
He was a league above me and he fell like giant redwood. No terran macro monocotyldon was a match for my monocled warp-blade-wielding industrialists.
Feels Good Man.
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What league are you? :o
Eco cheese... nice.
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Soon enough Zergs will be going Hatch-Hatch-Pool-Hatch. You'll see.
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On January 31 2012 05:35 mizU wrote:
What league are you? :o
Eco cheese... nice.
Diamond on NA. I'm pretty much a PvT specialist now. Before this breakthrough I was getting 60% win rate in PvT on ladder (with pvz and pvp equalizing my win rate ofc).
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On January 31 2012 05:25 Tobberoth wrote:
Macro cheese, so OP.
Yep. I'm actually surprised how few people consider the macro cheese option in a lot of situations. Most people just say to themselves "Do I get aggressive or do I just continue my BO?". Macro cheese seems to be a rare and powerful option. It is... not quite a hard counter but pretty effective, I guess. I'm hesitant to say he can't retaliate, thus leading to a hard counter that you just throw in on the fly, but it seems to be a powerful, rarely considered and unexplored style.
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On January 31 2012 05:36 TiTanIum_ wrote:
Soon enough Zergs will be going Hatch-Hatch-Pool-Hatch. You'll see.
Once seen in Brood War as the most economic of all Zerg openings, with the new queen mechanics it's barely an option. Ignoring the defensive abilities an early gives you, having a queen out with your second hatchery is as economical as you can get.
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It doesn't really surprise me that this is where the game seems to be going - I wasn't surprised when Sheth took a third base at 20 supply against Grubby in a showmatch I watched last night, and while it's a little different because he's zerg, I don't think it's necessarily a bad choice to add your third expo as any race if you have confirmation that he's doing something that won't hurt you that badly.
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This early double expand style has been popping up with the various races, including TvP going 1 rax double CC opening, and opting to use the third CC for SCVs/MULEs until he can effectively defend a third.
I think it is an amazing response to FEs, especially since you can make a lot of static defense to support a smaller army long enough to deny a 2-base allin play.
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United States15275 Posts
I've seen Oz use this build against Polt in MSI Cup and Hero do something similar against Thorzain in NASTL. I seem to recall a ZeNEX player do it in a game vs Nada in ESV Weekly. It's extremely powerful if you can feign some sort of pressure or control the map (Hero likes 1 gate FE ---> 3 gate blink ---> FE + templar + charge), and even better if the Terran wants a macro game.
Problem is it is extremely weak against standard medivac/stim timing pushes. You won't have the time to get enough HTs or Colossi to compensate for medivac healing, and zealots with charge can only hold the army for so long.
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On January 31 2012 06:40 Sated wrote:
Do you have any replays of this kind of stuff? I saw Parting do it in the GSL, but I don't have access to the VODs.
It's just 1 gate fast expand and then add another nexus when you see the CC so it comes out to be 13gate, 14 gas, 16 pylon 17 core, zealot, stalker, nexus, nexus then just add as many gates as you feel comfortable with (anywhere between 8 to 12 is fine I think). Oh and don't do any teching, not until your expos have been up and mining for a full 2 minutes at least. If you tech and expand at the same time you won't have enough units to do anything.
I can give you a replay if you want but, I have only tried it once so far; there are still a lot of wrinkles I need to iron out.
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Isn't every protoss a PvT specialist? All the protoss's i've talked to say it's their easiest matchup and they have problems in PvZ. Most protosses I've been playing recently have been doing similar things to this. Not really the 3 nexus thing, but going nexus first or 1 gate expand every time. I think people have finally realized that sentries can allow them to hold an expo rather easily, which is a good thing for the game overall since there will be less and less all ins.
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This is why I ALWAYS 1 base in TvP.
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On January 31 2012 07:53 Meta wrote:
This is why I ALWAYS 1 base in TvP.
Did you not read what triggers this? They wait to see the CC come down, and only on that tell.
1 basers will be reacted to according to 1 Gate FE build reactions.
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I do it in PvZ sometimes with FFE
Like after the nexus, if there's a fast third and both nat gases i'll get my third around 8:30 and go for a big charge/+2 weapons 11 gate (pressure, not always all-in) with a smattering of sentries from early for FF/GS
Usually ends up hitting just as/before mutas start to poke around and is often a killing blow because ling/muta/crawler just isn't enough
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On January 31 2012 08:22 TG Manny wrote:Did you not read what triggers this? They wait to see the CC come down, and only on that tell. 1 basers will be reacted to according to 1 Gate FE build reactions.
Obviously they're not going to go double nexus vs one base.. that's the whole point of one basing
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On January 31 2012 08:22 TG Manny wrote:Did you not read what triggers this? They wait to see the CC come down, and only on that tell. 1 basers will be reacted to according to 1 Gate FE build reactions.
that was his point im pretty sure
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I thought it was a pretty crazy build. However when I see that my protoss opponent has his natual nexus warping in I start up a third inbase CC for extra scv making and mules/scans.
It makes a lot of sense and I think that it really is a carry over from pvz when protoss's where always faced with a zerg third coming up when they tried to FE.
pro terrans have started to play MMM in tvt and tvz now with some sucsess. I'm surprised and at the same time not that styles can so easily be transfered into other matchups well.
I think that a 3 seige tank timing will become a lot more popular if this continues in popularity. just seiging up at the nat and then containing the toss inside his main while sending some reninforceing units to assult said third and then just expanding while having 5 tanks watching the ramp. that or some reactor hellion fun time will be cool to see.
Either way I think its a great evolution to the MU very entertaining and a good turnaround.
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cheeses are not "counters" just because you haven't lost with a particular one yet. your opponents' lack of skill is not indicative of your build's 1337ness
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Who does that guy think he is? Flash?
I kid. I kid.
Although eco cheese is really fun to do when you don't care about winning or losing. If it fails, then whatever; you weren't worried about winning anyways. If it succeeds, then you are going to have a really fun mid and lategame on your hands.
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On January 31 2012 12:32 eviltomahawk wrote:
Who does that guy think he is? Flash?
I kid. I kid.
Although eco cheese is really fun to do when you don't care about winning or losing. If it fails, then whatever; you weren't worried about winning anyways. If it succeeds, then you are going to have a really fun mid and lategame on your hands.
It's not cheese though... I mean what are they going to do if they spot the extra nexus (which they shouldn't due to my stalker and zealot and no concussive shell due to expo)? If they defend, then they are prolonging the inevitable and if they attack they attack into a wall of units, their only option is to match my expansion.
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On January 31 2012 13:01 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:32 eviltomahawk wrote:
Who does that guy think he is? Flash?
I kid. I kid.
Although eco cheese is really fun to do when you don't care about winning or losing. If it fails, then whatever; you weren't worried about winning anyways. If it succeeds, then you are going to have a really fun mid and lategame on your hands. It's not cheese though... I mean what are they going to do if they spot the extra nexus (which they shouldn't due to my stalker and zealot and no concussive shell due to expo)? If they defend, then they are prolonging the inevitable and if they attack they attack into a wall of units, their only option is to match my expansion.
Hmmm... I suppose so.
For some reason, I was thinking about double Nexus before Gateway, which would be a hilariously hardcore eco cheese.
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EPT
