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This blog is exactly what it says it is, I need to rage about Ghosts for a second. Ghosts in my opinion are the most over powered unit in the game. The fact that marines are the only anti-air unit that costs minerals besides queens is one thing, but they are easily destroyed. Same deal with mauraders. As you can probably tell I do still think the game isn't balanced, but it has come a long way, and the only adjustment I think is needed is the Ghost getting a major nerfing.
I began writing this as an analytical blog comparing the skills similar to those of the ghost, but most of you already know them too well, so I will just voice my issues about the Ghosts.
I recently had an with another Protoss player over this, him believing that HTs might be considered even better than Ghosts. Here is why he was wrong in my opinion. He said for one Storm is better than EMP, because it does so much damage. Yes, an EMP will not kill the opponents army, it will just cripple the spellcasters, and cut half the health of the army as well, and it eats archons for breakfast. Now I give it that blizzard made it less op with the radius nerf. But it still makes bad players look good, and win games. Plus if your paying attention, you can micro your way out of a storm. EMP, well that shit is instantaneous!
He also argued that HTs need to be slow, because if they were any faster they could just run up, kill an army, and run away. I mean his logic makes sense, Ghosts can't run up to a protoss army and EMP the fuck out of them and run away. No. They can do one better, they can fucking do it while invisible! Make HTs the same speed as Zealots, is there any really good fucking reason to make them so stupidly slow? Yeah they can turn into archons, but if your are in battle and you are losing the fight, you lose your high templar no matter what.
If Blizzard went the way of the Infestor, and limited the abilities you can use while invisible, aka, only nukes and attack, I would be fine with that. Than he said Feedback was really good. Yeah its good against things with energy, but has anyone seen late game TvZ? Every time I hear the casters shout "OH TEH SNIPES ARE GOING DOWN!" Because a zerg army can be fucking leveled with nothing but snipes. All and all his argument was that you have to baby the High Templar, like you do for any other spellcaster, but why does the HT have to be the slowest and have no way to escape? No invisibility, no burrow, just a speed of 1.875
I'm done ranting, my main issue is just the speed of the high templar, I mean protoss is really know for being immobile, can we play have one less thing holding us back?
Much luv
DJ Wilma
 
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Position HTs preemptively. They're slow as hell.
Ghosts are incredibly good, but microing ghosts, bio and vikings late game is very hard. No, really they have a lot going on in during battles.
When I watch my army melt vs terran I'm sad also.
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On January 25 2012 02:29 JonnyLaw wrote:
Position HTs preemptively. They're slow as hell.
Ghosts are incredibly good, but microing ghosts, bio and vikings late game is very hard. No, really they have a lot going on in during battles.
When I watch my army melt vs terran I'm sad also.
Bitches get stim, we should get HTs to be faster
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Comparing one unit directly against another doesn't make sense. A unit is just one tool in a whole host of units that make up an entire race. Claiming that one unit is over-powered, to me, is claiming that one unit is stronger than an entire race. Just because ghosts have a lot of utility doesn't make them the best unit in the game. Ghosts take a long time to build, they're expensive, and it's hard to trade them cost-efficiently without good micro.
And if you want to compare casters against one another, okay, let's do that. Snipe is good, yes, but it takes 2-3 snipes to kill an infestor, and 2 to kill a HT. Storm and Fungal Growth not only have vastly larger radii than emp, but they also do, comparably, way more damage. Feedback is incredible not only against Ghosts and Infestors, but also against Thors, Ravens, Queens, Banshees, Corruptors, Sentries, and Battlecruisers. You want to talk about utility? Let's talk about how, even if HT lose all their energy (by emp or by casting), they can recycle into one of the most powerful vBio units in the game. You want to talk about massive DPS? Let's talk about How a handful of Infestors with full energy can spawn an entire army while burrowed.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for you, not because ghosts aren't strong-- they are. They're great units. HT and Infestors are just as good though, and Ghosts certainly aren't overpowered.
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I began writing this as an analytical blog comparing the skills similar to those of the ghost, but mostly I realized that takes too much effort, so I will just complain about Ghosts.
This is what I took away from it. Too bad, I do love a good analysis.
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At least EMP doesnt KILL your entire army, it just temporarily damages them (which is regenerated)
and also, if you complain about ghosts being able to cloak..ever heard of this permanently invisible unit called the Observer?
Ghosts vs Templars is usually about unit control (feedback vs emp or snipe)
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If the game only consisted of ghosts, high templars and infestors, you might have a point. But it doesn't.
People tried to selectively compare defensive structures, air units or macro mechanics of every race. But even if you come to conclusion that one is stronger than the other it doesn't break the game. There's so many other factors needed to evaluate a balancing issue, such as the amount of micro involved, the price, the unit's mobility, it's efficiency in a deathball, it's place in the tech tree, their versatility, etc. etc. Broken down comparisons like yours just don't work.
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On January 25 2012 02:39 mbr2321 wrote:
Comparing one unit directly against another doesn't make sense. A unit is just one tool in a whole host of units that make up an entire race. Claiming that one unit is over-powered, to me, is claiming that one unit is stronger than an entire race. Just because ghosts have a lot of utility doesn't make them the best unit in the game. Ghosts take a long time to build, they're expensive, and it's hard to trade them cost-efficiently without good micro.
And if you want to compare casters against one another, okay, let's do that. Snipe is good, yes, but it takes 2-3 snipes to kill an infestor, and 2 to kill a HT. Storm and Fungal Growth not only have vastly larger radii than emp, but they also do, comparably, way more damage. Feedback is incredible not only against Ghosts and Infestors, but also against Thors, Ravens, Queens, Banshees, Corruptors, Sentries, and Battlecruisers. You want to talk about utility? Let's talk about how, even if HT lose all their energy (by emp or by casting), they can recycle into one of the most powerful vBio units in the game. You want to talk about massive DPS? Let's talk about How a handful of Infestors with full energy can spawn an entire army while burrowed.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for you, not because ghosts aren't strong-- they are. They're great units. HT and Infestors are just as good though, and Ghosts certainly aren't overpowered.
Well said, sir. This pretty much sums up my thoughts after reading the OP. I must admit though, at times, Ghosts, HT and infestors all seem a little OP to me ^_^
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storm is much worse  a couple storms and your whole army is dead. at least you can regenerate your shields
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I, for one, agree 100%. I think they shouldn't be able to snipe/EMP while cloaked, only drop nukes and attack. Imagine if Infestors could drop fungals while burrowed? Also, make them biological so they take bonus damage, I mean, they are human after all >.> Finally, I think snipe should do half-damage vs. armored units.
tl;dr - Nerf Ghosts to hell!
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wah wah wah
youre making my race look whiny
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On January 25 2012 03:28 Baobab wrote:
I, for one, agree 100%. I think they shouldn't be able to snipe/EMP while cloaked, only drop nukes and attack. Imagine if Infestors could drop fungals while burrowed? Also, make them biological so they take bonus damage, I mean, they are human after all >.> Finally, I think snipe should do half-damage vs. armored units.
tl;dr - Nerf Ghosts to hell!
Ghosts are biological. They're classified as psyonic biological. -_-
The whole point of snipe is that it ignores armor.
Cloaking costs energy. Spent energy means fewer snipes and fewer EMPs. Just get detection and it's totally nullified anyway.
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On January 25 2012 03:28 Baobab wrote:
I, for one, agree 100%. I think they shouldn't be able to snipe/EMP while cloaked, only drop nukes and attack. Imagine if Infestors could drop fungals while burrowed? Also, make them biological so they take bonus damage, I mean, they are human after all >.> Finally, I think snipe should do half-damage vs. armored units.
tl;dr - Nerf Ghosts to hell!
clearly you don't remember when they could fungal while burrow'd glitch.
Protoss should probably start putting the HT's in wp's like BW days so they cant get sniped or cant get empd. But protoss's in diamond/masters just 1a into armies and storm/ff while terran is probably harder to micro. then they cry if they get empd. 1 storm does 90 dmg? it has a bigger AOE than emp, remember EMP was reduced by 40%. So now EMP will hit a cluster of HT's if the protoss is bad and lets them clump up. Protoss's don't realize that if they actually spread their HT correctly then they will most likely win the batter with good storms and micro. I thin they will realize this when HOTS comes out and zerg is the OP class with burrow'd banes ^^
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What? No mention of the bullshit caster war? You realize that ghosts only cost 100 gas right? You know they have longer range and don't need to spread out like HTs right? Come on, ghosts have plenty more reasons to be total bullshit. I expect better :D
Move speed should really just correlate to power imo. HTs are pretty powerful so they should slow the army down. A pure stalker army should be faster than a stalker ht army.
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Has anyone else noticed that ghosts have WAY more health in sc2 than in BW? 100 hp vs 45 hp. Pretty big buff, makes them survive long enough to actually be able to cast their spells.
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You guys overestimate the Ghosts power. I'd personally rather have an HT/Infestor any day of the week.
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I think it really comes down to micro when using the caster units. If you have poor control, or you don't maximize the units efficiency by using the skills you have correctly, any unit can seem inferior in comparison to the way someone uses a different unit. One thing I will say about the ghost is that if you don't find a way to kill them at the very beginning of the engagement when he starts EMPing, you definitely pay the price.
I wish I had some advice for it, but I don't really. Personally, I just huck a few gateway units at them to see if I can get them to throw down the EMPs, but this relies too heavily on hoping they are bad. I've had a little more success with spreading my army out and going for those multi-vector attacks.
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Ghosts are just poorly designed units. Due to their awe-inspiring speed and range, their abilities have to be either awesome or terrible. The fact that ghosts are central to TvP makes this worse.
I think atm ghosts and terran are a little on the bad side against protoss and against Zerg, well... just go watch some of MVP's games. WCG grand finals game two versus Xigua comes to mind. Don't think Xigua could have done jack.
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On January 25 2012 06:37 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Ghosts are just poorly designed units. Due to their awe-inspiring speed and range, their abilities have to be either awesome or terrible. The fact that ghosts are central to TvP makes this worse.
I think atm ghosts and terran are a little on the bad side against protoss and against Zerg, well... just go watch some of MVP's games. WCG grand finals game two versus Xigua comes to mind. Don't think Xigua could have done jack.
No they're not poorly designed units. They're fine. They have costs and benefits, just like every other unit. The term "poorly designed" pisses me off more than "imbalanced" does. Calling something "poorly designed" is balance whining and trying to avoid getting banned for balance whining. Especially in this context, the two terms are one in the same, so call it what it is.
Back to Ghosts. They don't have awe-inspiring speed. Chargelots, speedlings, mutas, and hellions have awe-inspiring speed. Ghosts can be classified as "not slow" at best. And how does their speed influence in any way how awesome or terrible their spells are? You would think the spells could speak for themselves. Ghosts aren't central to TvP. Cloaked Banshees to snipe HT is a tactic that, while much less popular, is no less viable.
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Pewpewpewpewpew.
My poor poor ultralisks
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On January 25 2012 06:47 TheButtonmen wrote:Pewpewpewpewpew. My poor poor broodlord
fixed, ultras are raped even harder by marauders (btw 275energy to kill one ultra, not that good, still the sound is awesome ^^)
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United States199 Posts
Lol for some reason when I first read the title I thought you were going to rage about ghosts (i.e. spirits, Casper, the supernatural, etc.) So I was a little disappointed when I came to my senses. Nice rant though.
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On January 25 2012 03:31 7mk wrote:
wah wah wah
youre making my race look whiny
Yeah seriously, we are supposed to be the manly race, descended from Reach himself. I blame Blizzard for making the zealot say "We cannot hold!" which is a whiny, but not a very manly, thing to say.
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I came here expecting to face metaphysical concerns and fears, anecdote pictures from 1889 and terrifying '' it happened '' stories. I was greatly dissapointed.
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On January 25 2012 06:47 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:37 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Ghosts are just poorly designed units. Due to their awe-inspiring speed and range, their abilities have to be either awesome or terrible. The fact that ghosts are central to TvP makes this worse.
I think atm ghosts and terran are a little on the bad side against protoss and against Zerg, well... just go watch some of MVP's games. WCG grand finals game two versus Xigua comes to mind. Don't think Xigua could have done jack. No they're not poorly designed units. They're fine. They have costs and benefits, just like every other unit. The term "poorly designed" pisses me off more than "imbalanced" does. Calling something "poorly designed" is balance whining and trying to avoid getting banned for balance whining. Especially in this context, the two terms are one in the same, so call it what it is. Back to Ghosts. They don't have awe-inspiring speed. Chargelots, speedlings, mutas, and hellions have awe-inspiring speed. Ghosts can be classified as "not slow" at best. And how does their speed influence in any way how awesome or terrible their spells are? You would think the spells could speak for themselves. Ghosts aren't central to TvP. Cloaked Banshees to snipe HT is a tactic that, while much less popular, is no less viable.
I am talking about the spell's speed, not the unit. Insta-hit spells (and don't tell me psy storm is insta hit, psy storm is an aoe dot) with extreme range tend to lean towards either being an APM sink or incredibly OP, as at the higher levels (which is where most people look to for balance) missing is hard and people can react at the blink of an eye.
Think about it this way: a spell can be cast first and faster than any other spell. That spell cannot be equal to or greater than other spells in terms of power, otherwise it WILL be imbalanced, so it must be nerfed to a level that turns it into, if not an APM sink, then an innefficient spell.
Ghost spells can be cast first, will always inflict full damage upon hit and cannot be dodged. A sweet spot for spells like these are next to impossible to find in a game like starcraft, especially considering that the ghost's role in the terran army is vital, and thus changes to it directly effect the entire race.
Also, I'm not balance whining. I'm saying that the unit is unnecessarily difficult to balance and that better units can and should be put in its place. Frankly, I can't "whine" about balance until I am good enough that it legitimately starts affecting my play in a major way anyways.
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In my league, it is not uncommon for their to be FIVE layers of templar.
The have templar in the van, the rear, and the flanks, and also in reinforcement areas, waiting to get energy during the battle.
If you're doing this, and you still get all of your ghosts emp'ed, then its time to increase your game to the next level with warp prisms.
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On January 25 2012 07:12 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 03:31 7mk wrote:
wah wah wah
youre making my race look whiny Yeah seriously, we are supposed to be the manly race, descended from Reach himself. I blame Blizzard for making the zealot say "We cannot hold!" which is a whiny, but not a very manly, thing to say.
How about Ghosts, Marines, and Medics dying?
BLAAAARAAAGHOGOD
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I think the biggest problem with ghosts is that snipe and EMP have more range than feedback. This makes it so if a storm or feedback goes down it was the terran players bad.
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Alright, lets take it your way and do some direct comparisons
Muta harass! Let's defend with the ghost aoe-ohwait
Muta harass! Lets defend it with the HT aoe-huzzah!
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On January 25 2012 02:18 DJWilma wrote:
This blog is exactly what it says it is, I need to rage about Ghosts for a second. Ghosts in my opinion are the most over powered unit in the game. The fact that marines are the only anti-air unit that costs minerals besides queens is one thing, but they are easily destroyed. Same deal with mauraders. As you can probably tell I do still think the game isn't balanced, but it has come a long way, and the only adjustment I think is needed is the Ghost getting a major nerfing.
I began writing this as an analytical blog comparing the skills similar to those of the ghost, but most of you already know them too well, so I will just voice my issues about the Ghosts.
I recently had an with another Protoss player over this, him believing that HTs might be considered even better than Ghosts. Here is why he was wrong in my opinion. He said for one Storm is better than EMP, because it does so much damage. Yes, an EMP will not kill the opponents army, it will just cripple the spellcasters, and cut half the health of the army as well, and it eats archons for breakfast. Now I give it that blizzard made it less op with the radius nerf. But it still makes bad players look good, and win games. Plus if your paying attention, you can micro your way out of a storm. EMP, well that shit is instantaneous!
He also argued that HTs need to be slow, because if they were any faster they could just run up, kill an army, and run away. I mean his logic makes sense, Ghosts can't run up to a protoss army and EMP the fuck out of them and run away. No. They can do one better, they can fucking do it while invisible! Make HTs the same speed as Zealots, is there any really good fucking reason to make them so stupidly slow? Yeah they can turn into archons, but if your are in battle and you are losing the fight, you lose your high templar no matter what.
If Blizzard went the way of the Infestor, and limited the abilities you can use while invisible, aka, only nukes and attack, I would be fine with that. Than he said Feedback was really good. Yeah its good against things with energy, but has anyone seen late game TvZ? Every time I hear the casters shout "OH TEH SNIPES ARE GOING DOWN!" Because a zerg army can be fucking leveled with nothing but snipes. All and all his argument was that you have to baby the High Templar, like you do for any other spellcaster, but why does the HT have to be the slowest and have no way to escape? No invisibility, no burrow, just a speed of 1.875
I'm done ranting, my main issue is just the speed of the high templar, I mean protoss is really know for being immobile, can we play have one less thing holding us back?
Much luv
DJ Wilma
So, you're complaining about ghosts, but you have no problem with how infestors/broods currently are? If you're gonna complain than at least point out the imba stuff of each race imo 
Also, i would try playing it from Terran's side and you'll realize ghosts are not as powerful as you are making them out because the snipes are limited.
You probably are not playing correctly vs lots of ghosts, as if you hit even 1 random money fungal on them you can wipe out 8-12 ghosts usually when you're using brood/infestor. The reason this is, is because single ghosts sniping doesn't do jack shiot, so Terrans that solely rely on mass ghost sniping (no good Terran does anymore) vs broods will have to have his ghosts very close together..
so yeah...Terrans used to learn ghosts and you are claiming imbalance. Every race has learned to use some lategame stuff, i don't think you realize how powerful brood/infestor/corruptor with tech switches really is though if you are QQing about ghosts !
Also, btw, ghosts are much more difficult to use than infestors/broods are sooooo...no it doesn't make bad players look good...it makes good players look good.
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ghosts are the most difficult spell caster to use. both fungal and storm are spells that you don't really care where you shoot it off. as long as you hit their units, any units at all, you've gotten about the most you could have gotten out of your spell. with emp, if you don't hit the infestors or HT, the spell is not nearly as worth it. snipe and feedback are both difficult single target spells, but you can't feedback the same unit multiple times, whereas with snipe you have to spend a lot of apm r-clicking the same unit over and over in order to get all your snipes off. plus feedback is easier to use in general because ghosts and infestors are generally at the front of the army where they're pretty visible while you want to have your HT near the back so you can be sure of storming when terran isn't going to run away.
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EPT
