• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:47
CEST 18:47
KST 01:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview3[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors8Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10
Community News
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !1Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple0RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event12Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results12026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 524 Death and Taxes The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base
Brood War
General
Do we have a pimpest plays list? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ (Spoiler) Asl ro8 D winner interview BW General Discussion AI Question
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL21] Ro8 Day 4 [BSL22] RO16 Group Stage - 02 - 10 May [ASL21] Ro8 Day 3
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread OutLive 25 (RTS Game) Daigo vs Menard Best of 10
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread 3D technology/software discussion
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
McBoner: A hockey love story 2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How EEG Data Can Predict Gam…
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2037 users

The Elephant: a Probability Exercise

Blogs > Primadog
Post a Reply
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 23:34:35
January 20 2012 23:33 GMT
#1
We evaluate how fast can the GSL absorb a mass BW transition,
[image loading]
as proposed by "The Elephant in the Room.
"


I. Introduction

One of the most controversial editorial published on TeamLiquid.net, "The Elephant" hit a sore spot within the StarCraft fanbase. "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce" instantly become a galvanizing meme and divisive force between SC2 and BW fans, generating hundreds of pages of debate within weeks. Even now, the topic resurfaces each time new ammunition appears for either side - the spectacular GSL debut of (T)fOrGG, FXOBoss' vague blogs, or forGG's poor Code S run. It will probably never run its course until the foretold flood finally hit.

We will make no attempt to settle the score in this post.

Instead, this is an attempt to see how well the newer, more flexible GSL format can cope with the predicted sudden talent influx. Has the GSL made sufficient incremental steps to accommodate a rapidly shifting talent pool? Will 2012 be the year were Code S properly includes the Top-32 players of the world? How fast will ex-BW pros elbow out the pretenders?


II. 2011 GSL Format

To judge finesse, we must first have something to compare with.

Until late 2011, the GSL tournament was under a completely different format. Inflexible, the format's most glaring flaw was limiting player shifts between Code S and Code A (with one Foreigner seed) to only 8 each season. This resulted in players often lingering in Code S beyond their welcome and difficulty for rising stars to compete for the big prize. This fault would later force a complete revamp in tournament format by GSL November. We will use the last format before the revamp - GSL October (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October#Information ) - as the control comparison sample.

If "The Elephant" is true, then all ex-BW pros belong in Code S. Suppose 20 ex-BW pros transitioned suddenly ( with 20 the typical size of a BW team). How many season will it take to fit them all in there?

For simplicity's sake, let's assume all ex-BW pros are far more skilled than the existing talent pool of SC2, that they win 100% of their sets against anyone but each other. Let's also assume that the brackets distributed them in such a way that ex-BW pros only meet at the latest round possible. Finally, let's assume that they won all the Code A spots available from the Preliminaries.

In that case, for the following GSL season:
  • 12 will qualify for Code [image loading], occupying all available spots; 8 will have to requalify.
  • All 12 advanced to ro16;
  • 8 advances to ro8, 4 eliminated by each other;
  • 1 wins Code [image loading] and earns Code [image loading] status.
  • The other 7 advance to Up-N-Down;
  • 6 wins their respective group and earns Code [image loading].

Thus, every season a maximum of 7 ex-BW pros can advance into Code S. 20 players, then, will take 3 GSL season, under the 2011 format.


III. 2012 Format; 100% set winrate; 20 players

How does the same conditions compare under the 2012 GSL format (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 )?

The answer is surprisingly simple! Under the new format, 20 players can qualify for Code [image loading] each season, and up to 24 Code [image loading] spots are up for grasp. Therefore, it's theoretically possible all 20 ex-BW players to advance into Code [image loading], in a single season!

How much more efficient is the format? A 2012 season lasts 8 weeks compares to 2011's 5-week season. Since the 2011 format will take 3 seasons to complete "The Elephant" transition, the new format accelerates the transition by an entire 7 weeks!
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]

IV. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 20 Players

Of course, even for ex-BW pros, sweeping all sets would be rather difficult and unrealistic. Luckly, we have (T)fOrGG to thank for a single available datapoint in how well a top ex-BW pro can do. According to TLPD, he has a match winrate just shy of 60% and won 7 of his 12 GSL matches. A 58% match winrate is equivalent to 62% set winrate (all relevant matches are bo3's), based on the following formula:

+ Show Spoiler [set winrate] +
Each match-up is a bo3 with game 3 not played if the results are already determined (WW or LL). The possible winning permutations then are WLW, WW, LWW, with the possible losing permutations of a bo3 are WLL, LL, LWL. Projected record R is determined using expected value E for a win and 1-E:
Projected Record = expected value of WLW or WW or LWW 
R = E * (1-E) * E + E * E + (1-E) * E * E
R = 2 * E * E * (1-E) + E * E


For simplicity's sake, let's simply assume that all the ex-BW pros have a 60% set winrate. Furthermore, they also have a 60% success rate for advancing through group stages. We will also give them the benefit of the doubt by rounding up with remainders. For simplicity's sake, let's also assume they all advance through the preliminaries.

Given this, how many will secure Code [image loading] status in the first season? In the first season:
  • 20 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 12 players {20 * 60%} advances to the ro32, 8 drop out;
  • 8 players {12 * 60%} advances to ro24, 4 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 5 players { 8 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 3 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 5 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].


Thus, next season will start with 10 players are in Code [image loading] and 10 in Code [image loading]. Due to the convoluted format, the flowchart becomes a bit more complicated, thus I'll simply leave my notes in the spoiler. Season 2 will end with 14 players in Code [image loading] ; season 3 with 15[image loading] , and so forth.

+ Show Spoiler [Case 3 notes] +
[image loading]
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]


Two observations from this result:
  1. Ex-BW pros no longer sweeps in a single season. It will take longer than 2012 for all the ex-BW pros to join Code [image loading].
  2. As the talent pool improve each season, even ex-BW pros will find it harder to make Code [image loading].


V. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 6 Players

What if the assumption that a mass transition is wrong? What if only a small number of BW pros change game? Let's assume only 6 BW pros made the jump:
  • 6 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 4 players {6* 60%} advances to the ro32, 2 drop out;
  • 3 players {4 * 60%} advances to ro24, 1 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 2 players {3 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 1 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 2 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].

A funny thing happens next season, with 4 players in Code [image loading] and 2 in Code [image loading], all 6 advances to Code [image loading].

+ Show Spoiler [Case 4 notes] +
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60% & 6 players: Week-0 6[image loading] | Week-9 4[image loading] 2[image loading] | Week-17 6[image loading]



VI. Conclusion

This exercise was never an attempt to answer "The Elephant", but we did never-the-less found some interesting results. Under the 2012 format, GSL has become much more adaptive to a talent pool in flux. As long as the talents coming in are not all superman (yet high caliber like (T)fOrGG), we can expect an orderly and efficient induction into Code S. However, this orderly induction only happens up to a transition of a certain size. Above which, a progressively stronger talent pool will naturally make it harder for even ex-BW pros to admit into Code S.

Instead, some of our current talents would remain in place of the ex-BW pros. Math says so.

***
Thank God and gunrun.
Wohmfg
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1292 Posts
January 21 2012 00:00 GMT
#2
Interesting read.

As much as I hate the demise of BW, it is always very interesting to see how the BW players fare in the world of SC2. forgg was a good player but it will be exciting when the great and legendary players get to test themselves in SC2.
BW4Life!
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
January 21 2012 01:37 GMT
#3
Hyun is kinda sneaking into things as well. Might even do better than ForGG. Especially since ForGG had been playing for quite some time and Hyun only recently picked things up (and they're already comparable, skill-wise).
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill #247
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Reynor 318
Hui .308
BRAT_OK 27
MindelVK 4
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4436
Sea 1967
Bisu 1811
EffOrt 1310
Light 407
Horang2 405
BeSt 369
Snow 292
Rush 241
Hyuk 213
[ Show more ]
actioN 177
Soma 99
hero 97
Mind 68
Sea.KH 61
PianO 53
Hyun 47
Trikslyr41
Killer 39
Backho 32
Pusan 32
Aegong 28
sorry 27
soO 26
Hm[arnc] 24
Terrorterran 23
Bale 23
Rock 23
Sacsri 17
IntoTheRainbow 14
JulyZerg 13
scan(afreeca) 11
Dota 2
Gorgc5812
qojqva2271
monkeys_forever234
Counter-Strike
fl0m1620
byalli438
ceh9424
adren_tv164
kRYSTAL_25
Heroes of the Storm
XaKoH 117
Other Games
Grubby2520
FrodaN1301
B2W.Neo1012
Liquid`RaSZi964
Beastyqt809
420jenkins295
Livibee121
Mew2King93
QueenE89
RotterdaM88
KnowMe65
ODPixel43
C9.Mang028
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick4974
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 76
• LUISG 29
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV456
League of Legends
• TFBlade1021
Other Games
• Shiphtur272
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 13m
Escore
17h 13m
The PondCast
17h 13m
WardiTV Invitational
18h 13m
Zoun vs Ryung
Lambo vs ShoWTimE
Big Brain Bouts
23h 13m
Fjant vs Bly
Serral vs Shameless
OSC
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 7h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 17h
RSL Revival
1d 17h
SHIN vs Bunny
ByuN vs Shameless
WardiTV Invitational
1d 18h
Krystianer vs TriGGeR
Cure vs Rogue
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 22h
BSL
2 days
Artosis vs TerrOr
spx vs StRyKeR
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Cure vs Zoun
Clem vs Lambo
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
BSL
3 days
Dewalt vs DragOn
Aether vs Jimin
GSL
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Soma vs Leta
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
OSC
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Light vs Flash
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-05-05
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W6
KK 2v2 League Season 1
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
YSL S3
Escore Tournament S2: W7
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.