• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:34
CET 15:34
KST 23:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket12Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge1[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA12
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating thread
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
Data analysis on 70 million replays [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [Game] Osu! Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Clair Obscur - Expedition 33
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2064 users

The Elephant: a Probability Exercise

Blogs > Primadog
Post a Reply
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 23:34:35
January 20 2012 23:33 GMT
#1
We evaluate how fast can the GSL absorb a mass BW transition,
[image loading]
as proposed by "The Elephant in the Room.
"


I. Introduction

One of the most controversial editorial published on TeamLiquid.net, "The Elephant" hit a sore spot within the StarCraft fanbase. "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce" instantly become a galvanizing meme and divisive force between SC2 and BW fans, generating hundreds of pages of debate within weeks. Even now, the topic resurfaces each time new ammunition appears for either side - the spectacular GSL debut of (T)fOrGG, FXOBoss' vague blogs, or forGG's poor Code S run. It will probably never run its course until the foretold flood finally hit.

We will make no attempt to settle the score in this post.

Instead, this is an attempt to see how well the newer, more flexible GSL format can cope with the predicted sudden talent influx. Has the GSL made sufficient incremental steps to accommodate a rapidly shifting talent pool? Will 2012 be the year were Code S properly includes the Top-32 players of the world? How fast will ex-BW pros elbow out the pretenders?


II. 2011 GSL Format

To judge finesse, we must first have something to compare with.

Until late 2011, the GSL tournament was under a completely different format. Inflexible, the format's most glaring flaw was limiting player shifts between Code S and Code A (with one Foreigner seed) to only 8 each season. This resulted in players often lingering in Code S beyond their welcome and difficulty for rising stars to compete for the big prize. This fault would later force a complete revamp in tournament format by GSL November. We will use the last format before the revamp - GSL October (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October#Information ) - as the control comparison sample.

If "The Elephant" is true, then all ex-BW pros belong in Code S. Suppose 20 ex-BW pros transitioned suddenly ( with 20 the typical size of a BW team). How many season will it take to fit them all in there?

For simplicity's sake, let's assume all ex-BW pros are far more skilled than the existing talent pool of SC2, that they win 100% of their sets against anyone but each other. Let's also assume that the brackets distributed them in such a way that ex-BW pros only meet at the latest round possible. Finally, let's assume that they won all the Code A spots available from the Preliminaries.

In that case, for the following GSL season:
  • 12 will qualify for Code [image loading], occupying all available spots; 8 will have to requalify.
  • All 12 advanced to ro16;
  • 8 advances to ro8, 4 eliminated by each other;
  • 1 wins Code [image loading] and earns Code [image loading] status.
  • The other 7 advance to Up-N-Down;
  • 6 wins their respective group and earns Code [image loading].

Thus, every season a maximum of 7 ex-BW pros can advance into Code S. 20 players, then, will take 3 GSL season, under the 2011 format.


III. 2012 Format; 100% set winrate; 20 players

How does the same conditions compare under the 2012 GSL format (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 )?

The answer is surprisingly simple! Under the new format, 20 players can qualify for Code [image loading] each season, and up to 24 Code [image loading] spots are up for grasp. Therefore, it's theoretically possible all 20 ex-BW players to advance into Code [image loading], in a single season!

How much more efficient is the format? A 2012 season lasts 8 weeks compares to 2011's 5-week season. Since the 2011 format will take 3 seasons to complete "The Elephant" transition, the new format accelerates the transition by an entire 7 weeks!
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]

IV. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 20 Players

Of course, even for ex-BW pros, sweeping all sets would be rather difficult and unrealistic. Luckly, we have (T)fOrGG to thank for a single available datapoint in how well a top ex-BW pro can do. According to TLPD, he has a match winrate just shy of 60% and won 7 of his 12 GSL matches. A 58% match winrate is equivalent to 62% set winrate (all relevant matches are bo3's), based on the following formula:

+ Show Spoiler [set winrate] +
Each match-up is a bo3 with game 3 not played if the results are already determined (WW or LL). The possible winning permutations then are WLW, WW, LWW, with the possible losing permutations of a bo3 are WLL, LL, LWL. Projected record R is determined using expected value E for a win and 1-E:
Projected Record = expected value of WLW or WW or LWW 
R = E * (1-E) * E + E * E + (1-E) * E * E
R = 2 * E * E * (1-E) + E * E


For simplicity's sake, let's simply assume that all the ex-BW pros have a 60% set winrate. Furthermore, they also have a 60% success rate for advancing through group stages. We will also give them the benefit of the doubt by rounding up with remainders. For simplicity's sake, let's also assume they all advance through the preliminaries.

Given this, how many will secure Code [image loading] status in the first season? In the first season:
  • 20 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 12 players {20 * 60%} advances to the ro32, 8 drop out;
  • 8 players {12 * 60%} advances to ro24, 4 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 5 players { 8 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 3 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 5 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].


Thus, next season will start with 10 players are in Code [image loading] and 10 in Code [image loading]. Due to the convoluted format, the flowchart becomes a bit more complicated, thus I'll simply leave my notes in the spoiler. Season 2 will end with 14 players in Code [image loading] ; season 3 with 15[image loading] , and so forth.

+ Show Spoiler [Case 3 notes] +
[image loading]
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]


Two observations from this result:
  1. Ex-BW pros no longer sweeps in a single season. It will take longer than 2012 for all the ex-BW pros to join Code [image loading].
  2. As the talent pool improve each season, even ex-BW pros will find it harder to make Code [image loading].


V. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 6 Players

What if the assumption that a mass transition is wrong? What if only a small number of BW pros change game? Let's assume only 6 BW pros made the jump:
  • 6 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 4 players {6* 60%} advances to the ro32, 2 drop out;
  • 3 players {4 * 60%} advances to ro24, 1 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 2 players {3 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 1 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 2 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].

A funny thing happens next season, with 4 players in Code [image loading] and 2 in Code [image loading], all 6 advances to Code [image loading].

+ Show Spoiler [Case 4 notes] +
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60% & 6 players: Week-0 6[image loading] | Week-9 4[image loading] 2[image loading] | Week-17 6[image loading]



VI. Conclusion

This exercise was never an attempt to answer "The Elephant", but we did never-the-less found some interesting results. Under the 2012 format, GSL has become much more adaptive to a talent pool in flux. As long as the talents coming in are not all superman (yet high caliber like (T)fOrGG), we can expect an orderly and efficient induction into Code S. However, this orderly induction only happens up to a transition of a certain size. Above which, a progressively stronger talent pool will naturally make it harder for even ex-BW pros to admit into Code S.

Instead, some of our current talents would remain in place of the ex-BW pros. Math says so.

***
Thank God and gunrun.
Wohmfg
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1292 Posts
January 21 2012 00:00 GMT
#2
Interesting read.

As much as I hate the demise of BW, it is always very interesting to see how the BW players fare in the world of SC2. forgg was a good player but it will be exciting when the great and legendary players get to test themselves in SC2.
BW4Life!
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
January 21 2012 01:37 GMT
#3
Hyun is kinda sneaking into things as well. Might even do better than ForGG. Especially since ForGG had been playing for quite some time and Hyun only recently picked things up (and they're already comparable, skill-wise).
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8h 26m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 15
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 51319
Rain 2971
BeSt 1240
Mini 862
EffOrt 782
Stork 705
Larva 519
Light 516
firebathero 423
ZerO 377
[ Show more ]
actioN 294
hero 197
Rush 156
Mind 108
ajuk12(nOOB) 90
Sharp 85
Leta 60
Pusan 60
Sea.KH 52
zelot 45
ToSsGirL 43
scan(afreeca) 36
Backho 26
JulyZerg 17
Hm[arnc] 16
Noble 16
Terrorterran 13
HiyA 12
Bale 7
Dota 2
Gorgc6192
singsing2528
qojqva1908
Dendi771
XcaliburYe117
League of Legends
KnowMe38
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2339
Other Games
B2W.Neo1487
hiko488
crisheroes411
Lowko339
Fuzer 274
Hui .242
ArmadaUGS156
oskar80
QueenE68
djWHEAT56
Trikslyr37
ZerO(Twitch)19
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream15656
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV267
League of Legends
• Nemesis2725
• Jankos1489
• TFBlade712
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 26m
RSL Revival
16h 56m
Classic vs MaxPax
SHIN vs Reynor
herO vs Maru
WardiTV Korean Royale
21h 26m
SC Evo League
21h 56m
IPSL
1d 2h
Julia vs Artosis
JDConan vs DragOn
OSC
1d 2h
BSL 21
1d 5h
TerrOr vs Aeternum
HBO vs Kyrie
RSL Revival
1d 16h
Wardi Open
1d 23h
IPSL
2 days
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
2 days
StRyKeR vs Artosis
OyAji vs KameZerg
Replay Cast
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-16
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.