• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 14:05
CET 20:05
KST 04:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns6[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Starcraft 2 Zerg Coach
Tourneys
SC2 AI Tournament 2026 WardiTV Winter Cup OSC Season 13 World Championship uThermal 2v2 Circuit WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion I would like to say something about StarCraft StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Data analysis on 70 million replays
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread The Big Programming Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
How do archons sleep?
8882
Psychological Factors That D…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
StarCraft improvement
iopq
GOAT of Goats list
BisuDagger
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1314 users

The Elephant: a Probability Exercise

Blogs > Primadog
Post a Reply
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 23:34:35
January 20 2012 23:33 GMT
#1
We evaluate how fast can the GSL absorb a mass BW transition,
[image loading]
as proposed by "The Elephant in the Room.
"


I. Introduction

One of the most controversial editorial published on TeamLiquid.net, "The Elephant" hit a sore spot within the StarCraft fanbase. "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce" instantly become a galvanizing meme and divisive force between SC2 and BW fans, generating hundreds of pages of debate within weeks. Even now, the topic resurfaces each time new ammunition appears for either side - the spectacular GSL debut of (T)fOrGG, FXOBoss' vague blogs, or forGG's poor Code S run. It will probably never run its course until the foretold flood finally hit.

We will make no attempt to settle the score in this post.

Instead, this is an attempt to see how well the newer, more flexible GSL format can cope with the predicted sudden talent influx. Has the GSL made sufficient incremental steps to accommodate a rapidly shifting talent pool? Will 2012 be the year were Code S properly includes the Top-32 players of the world? How fast will ex-BW pros elbow out the pretenders?


II. 2011 GSL Format

To judge finesse, we must first have something to compare with.

Until late 2011, the GSL tournament was under a completely different format. Inflexible, the format's most glaring flaw was limiting player shifts between Code S and Code A (with one Foreigner seed) to only 8 each season. This resulted in players often lingering in Code S beyond their welcome and difficulty for rising stars to compete for the big prize. This fault would later force a complete revamp in tournament format by GSL November. We will use the last format before the revamp - GSL October (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October#Information ) - as the control comparison sample.

If "The Elephant" is true, then all ex-BW pros belong in Code S. Suppose 20 ex-BW pros transitioned suddenly ( with 20 the typical size of a BW team). How many season will it take to fit them all in there?

For simplicity's sake, let's assume all ex-BW pros are far more skilled than the existing talent pool of SC2, that they win 100% of their sets against anyone but each other. Let's also assume that the brackets distributed them in such a way that ex-BW pros only meet at the latest round possible. Finally, let's assume that they won all the Code A spots available from the Preliminaries.

In that case, for the following GSL season:
  • 12 will qualify for Code [image loading], occupying all available spots; 8 will have to requalify.
  • All 12 advanced to ro16;
  • 8 advances to ro8, 4 eliminated by each other;
  • 1 wins Code [image loading] and earns Code [image loading] status.
  • The other 7 advance to Up-N-Down;
  • 6 wins their respective group and earns Code [image loading].

Thus, every season a maximum of 7 ex-BW pros can advance into Code S. 20 players, then, will take 3 GSL season, under the 2011 format.


III. 2012 Format; 100% set winrate; 20 players

How does the same conditions compare under the 2012 GSL format (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 )?

The answer is surprisingly simple! Under the new format, 20 players can qualify for Code [image loading] each season, and up to 24 Code [image loading] spots are up for grasp. Therefore, it's theoretically possible all 20 ex-BW players to advance into Code [image loading], in a single season!

How much more efficient is the format? A 2012 season lasts 8 weeks compares to 2011's 5-week season. Since the 2011 format will take 3 seasons to complete "The Elephant" transition, the new format accelerates the transition by an entire 7 weeks!
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]

IV. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 20 Players

Of course, even for ex-BW pros, sweeping all sets would be rather difficult and unrealistic. Luckly, we have (T)fOrGG to thank for a single available datapoint in how well a top ex-BW pro can do. According to TLPD, he has a match winrate just shy of 60% and won 7 of his 12 GSL matches. A 58% match winrate is equivalent to 62% set winrate (all relevant matches are bo3's), based on the following formula:

+ Show Spoiler [set winrate] +
Each match-up is a bo3 with game 3 not played if the results are already determined (WW or LL). The possible winning permutations then are WLW, WW, LWW, with the possible losing permutations of a bo3 are WLL, LL, LWL. Projected record R is determined using expected value E for a win and 1-E:
Projected Record = expected value of WLW or WW or LWW 
R = E * (1-E) * E + E * E + (1-E) * E * E
R = 2 * E * E * (1-E) + E * E


For simplicity's sake, let's simply assume that all the ex-BW pros have a 60% set winrate. Furthermore, they also have a 60% success rate for advancing through group stages. We will also give them the benefit of the doubt by rounding up with remainders. For simplicity's sake, let's also assume they all advance through the preliminaries.

Given this, how many will secure Code [image loading] status in the first season? In the first season:
  • 20 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 12 players {20 * 60%} advances to the ro32, 8 drop out;
  • 8 players {12 * 60%} advances to ro24, 4 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 5 players { 8 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 3 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 5 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].


Thus, next season will start with 10 players are in Code [image loading] and 10 in Code [image loading]. Due to the convoluted format, the flowchart becomes a bit more complicated, thus I'll simply leave my notes in the spoiler. Season 2 will end with 14 players in Code [image loading] ; season 3 with 15[image loading] , and so forth.

+ Show Spoiler [Case 3 notes] +
[image loading]
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]


Two observations from this result:
  1. Ex-BW pros no longer sweeps in a single season. It will take longer than 2012 for all the ex-BW pros to join Code [image loading].
  2. As the talent pool improve each season, even ex-BW pros will find it harder to make Code [image loading].


V. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 6 Players

What if the assumption that a mass transition is wrong? What if only a small number of BW pros change game? Let's assume only 6 BW pros made the jump:
  • 6 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 4 players {6* 60%} advances to the ro32, 2 drop out;
  • 3 players {4 * 60%} advances to ro24, 1 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 2 players {3 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 1 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 2 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].

A funny thing happens next season, with 4 players in Code [image loading] and 2 in Code [image loading], all 6 advances to Code [image loading].

+ Show Spoiler [Case 4 notes] +
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60% & 6 players: Week-0 6[image loading] | Week-9 4[image loading] 2[image loading] | Week-17 6[image loading]



VI. Conclusion

This exercise was never an attempt to answer "The Elephant", but we did never-the-less found some interesting results. Under the 2012 format, GSL has become much more adaptive to a talent pool in flux. As long as the talents coming in are not all superman (yet high caliber like (T)fOrGG), we can expect an orderly and efficient induction into Code S. However, this orderly induction only happens up to a transition of a certain size. Above which, a progressively stronger talent pool will naturally make it harder for even ex-BW pros to admit into Code S.

Instead, some of our current talents would remain in place of the ex-BW pros. Math says so.

***
Thank God and gunrun.
Wohmfg
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1292 Posts
January 21 2012 00:00 GMT
#2
Interesting read.

As much as I hate the demise of BW, it is always very interesting to see how the BW players fare in the world of SC2. forgg was a good player but it will be exciting when the great and legendary players get to test themselves in SC2.
BW4Life!
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
January 21 2012 01:37 GMT
#3
Hyun is kinda sneaking into things as well. Might even do better than ForGG. Especially since ForGG had been playing for quite some time and Hyun only recently picked things up (and they're already comparable, skill-wise).
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 18h 56m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 507
UpATreeSC 97
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 34636
Shuttle 470
Hyuk 91
Mong 54
Shine 25
910 23
Dota 2
BananaSlamJamma248
LuMiX1
League of Legends
C9.Mang0599
Counter-Strike
fl0m1719
pashabiceps1011
adren_tv150
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu265
KnowMe172
Other Games
Grubby4020
Gorgc3481
Liquid`RaSZi1875
FrodaN1756
Beastyqt771
ceh9441
RotterdaM301
DeMusliM291
Fuzer 221
Sick210
JimRising 206
ArmadaUGS191
B2W.Neo149
QueenE110
Mew2King47
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick42767
BasetradeTV24
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HappyZerGling 89
• naamasc262
• Reevou 2
• Kozan
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 30
• FirePhoenix15
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis1666
Other Games
• imaqtpie1498
• Shiphtur289
Upcoming Events
OSC
18h 56m
SOOP
2 days
SHIN vs GuMiho
Cure vs Creator
The PondCast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
IPSL
4 days
DragOn vs Sziky
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-06
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
OSC Championship Season 13
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W3
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Big Gabe Cup #3
Nations Cup 2026
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.