• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:52
CEST 05:52
KST 12:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-227Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-69SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-64PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)14
StarCraft 2
General
Protoss AoE skill expression Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Serral wins HomeStory Cup 29 StarCraft 2 at SC4ALL II Invite #4/8 - Percival 5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)
Tourneys
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Are you ready for ASL 22? NEW HYPE VIDEO How FlaSh Nearly Forfeited MSL Finals being late BW General Discussion ASL22 General Discussion
Tourneys
2v2v2v2 Tournament KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo 2 thread ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread BCA KCP Kramat Jaya 📞Telp|wa:0821-8171-891 Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Iain M Banks Says He Has Cancer And Months To Live European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
NBA General Discussion Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
What is a Gamer?
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4819 users

The Elephant: a Probability Exercise

Blogs > Primadog
Post a Reply
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 23:34:35
January 20 2012 23:33 GMT
#1
We evaluate how fast can the GSL absorb a mass BW transition,
[image loading]
as proposed by "The Elephant in the Room.
"


I. Introduction

One of the most controversial editorial published on TeamLiquid.net, "The Elephant" hit a sore spot within the StarCraft fanbase. "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce" instantly become a galvanizing meme and divisive force between SC2 and BW fans, generating hundreds of pages of debate within weeks. Even now, the topic resurfaces each time new ammunition appears for either side - the spectacular GSL debut of (T)fOrGG, FXOBoss' vague blogs, or forGG's poor Code S run. It will probably never run its course until the foretold flood finally hit.

We will make no attempt to settle the score in this post.

Instead, this is an attempt to see how well the newer, more flexible GSL format can cope with the predicted sudden talent influx. Has the GSL made sufficient incremental steps to accommodate a rapidly shifting talent pool? Will 2012 be the year were Code S properly includes the Top-32 players of the world? How fast will ex-BW pros elbow out the pretenders?


II. 2011 GSL Format

To judge finesse, we must first have something to compare with.

Until late 2011, the GSL tournament was under a completely different format. Inflexible, the format's most glaring flaw was limiting player shifts between Code S and Code A (with one Foreigner seed) to only 8 each season. This resulted in players often lingering in Code S beyond their welcome and difficulty for rising stars to compete for the big prize. This fault would later force a complete revamp in tournament format by GSL November. We will use the last format before the revamp - GSL October (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October#Information ) - as the control comparison sample.

If "The Elephant" is true, then all ex-BW pros belong in Code S. Suppose 20 ex-BW pros transitioned suddenly ( with 20 the typical size of a BW team). How many season will it take to fit them all in there?

For simplicity's sake, let's assume all ex-BW pros are far more skilled than the existing talent pool of SC2, that they win 100% of their sets against anyone but each other. Let's also assume that the brackets distributed them in such a way that ex-BW pros only meet at the latest round possible. Finally, let's assume that they won all the Code A spots available from the Preliminaries.

In that case, for the following GSL season:
  • 12 will qualify for Code [image loading], occupying all available spots; 8 will have to requalify.
  • All 12 advanced to ro16;
  • 8 advances to ro8, 4 eliminated by each other;
  • 1 wins Code [image loading] and earns Code [image loading] status.
  • The other 7 advance to Up-N-Down;
  • 6 wins their respective group and earns Code [image loading].

Thus, every season a maximum of 7 ex-BW pros can advance into Code S. 20 players, then, will take 3 GSL season, under the 2011 format.


III. 2012 Format; 100% set winrate; 20 players

How does the same conditions compare under the 2012 GSL format (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 )?

The answer is surprisingly simple! Under the new format, 20 players can qualify for Code [image loading] each season, and up to 24 Code [image loading] spots are up for grasp. Therefore, it's theoretically possible all 20 ex-BW players to advance into Code [image loading], in a single season!

How much more efficient is the format? A 2012 season lasts 8 weeks compares to 2011's 5-week season. Since the 2011 format will take 3 seasons to complete "The Elephant" transition, the new format accelerates the transition by an entire 7 weeks!
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]

IV. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 20 Players

Of course, even for ex-BW pros, sweeping all sets would be rather difficult and unrealistic. Luckly, we have (T)fOrGG to thank for a single available datapoint in how well a top ex-BW pro can do. According to TLPD, he has a match winrate just shy of 60% and won 7 of his 12 GSL matches. A 58% match winrate is equivalent to 62% set winrate (all relevant matches are bo3's), based on the following formula:

+ Show Spoiler [set winrate] +
Each match-up is a bo3 with game 3 not played if the results are already determined (WW or LL). The possible winning permutations then are WLW, WW, LWW, with the possible losing permutations of a bo3 are WLL, LL, LWL. Projected record R is determined using expected value E for a win and 1-E:
Projected Record = expected value of WLW or WW or LWW 
R = E * (1-E) * E + E * E + (1-E) * E * E
R = 2 * E * E * (1-E) + E * E


For simplicity's sake, let's simply assume that all the ex-BW pros have a 60% set winrate. Furthermore, they also have a 60% success rate for advancing through group stages. We will also give them the benefit of the doubt by rounding up with remainders. For simplicity's sake, let's also assume they all advance through the preliminaries.

Given this, how many will secure Code [image loading] status in the first season? In the first season:
  • 20 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 12 players {20 * 60%} advances to the ro32, 8 drop out;
  • 8 players {12 * 60%} advances to ro24, 4 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 5 players { 8 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 3 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 5 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].


Thus, next season will start with 10 players are in Code [image loading] and 10 in Code [image loading]. Due to the convoluted format, the flowchart becomes a bit more complicated, thus I'll simply leave my notes in the spoiler. Season 2 will end with 14 players in Code [image loading] ; season 3 with 15[image loading] , and so forth.

+ Show Spoiler [Case 3 notes] +
[image loading]
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]


Two observations from this result:
  1. Ex-BW pros no longer sweeps in a single season. It will take longer than 2012 for all the ex-BW pros to join Code [image loading].
  2. As the talent pool improve each season, even ex-BW pros will find it harder to make Code [image loading].


V. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 6 Players

What if the assumption that a mass transition is wrong? What if only a small number of BW pros change game? Let's assume only 6 BW pros made the jump:
  • 6 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 4 players {6* 60%} advances to the ro32, 2 drop out;
  • 3 players {4 * 60%} advances to ro24, 1 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 2 players {3 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 1 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 2 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].

A funny thing happens next season, with 4 players in Code [image loading] and 2 in Code [image loading], all 6 advances to Code [image loading].

+ Show Spoiler [Case 4 notes] +
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60% & 6 players: Week-0 6[image loading] | Week-9 4[image loading] 2[image loading] | Week-17 6[image loading]



VI. Conclusion

This exercise was never an attempt to answer "The Elephant", but we did never-the-less found some interesting results. Under the 2012 format, GSL has become much more adaptive to a talent pool in flux. As long as the talents coming in are not all superman (yet high caliber like (T)fOrGG), we can expect an orderly and efficient induction into Code S. However, this orderly induction only happens up to a transition of a certain size. Above which, a progressively stronger talent pool will naturally make it harder for even ex-BW pros to admit into Code S.

Instead, some of our current talents would remain in place of the ex-BW pros. Math says so.

***
Thank God and gunrun.
Wohmfg
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1292 Posts
January 21 2012 00:00 GMT
#2
Interesting read.

As much as I hate the demise of BW, it is always very interesting to see how the BW players fare in the world of SC2. forgg was a good player but it will be exciting when the great and legendary players get to test themselves in SC2.
BW4Life!
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
January 21 2012 01:37 GMT
#3
Hyun is kinda sneaking into things as well. Might even do better than ForGG. Especially since ForGG had been playing for quite some time and Hyun only recently picked things up (and they're already comparable, skill-wise).
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #20
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft529
RuFF_SC2 228
NeuroSwarm 187
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3720
GuemChi 2527
Leta 97
Dota 2
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 668
Counter-Strike
summit1g8732
taco 437
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King197
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor95
Other Games
ROOTCatZ42
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick848
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush958
• Lourlo581
• Stunt251
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Weekly
7h 8m
The Patches Monday
12h 8m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 6h
PiG Sty Festival
1d 8h
PiGosaur Cup
1d 20h
Replay Cast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-08
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
RSL Revival: Season 6
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
META DYMY #4
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.