• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:42
CET 13:42
KST 21:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT29Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains10Weekly Cups (March 2-8): ByuN overcomes PvT block4GSL CK - New online series18BSL Season 224Vitality ends partnership with ONSYDE20
StarCraft 2
General
IPL Cricket ID Creation – Simple Process for New Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains GSL CK - New online series Weekly Cups (March 2-8): ByuN overcomes PvT block Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza
Tourneys
[GSL CK] Team Maru vs. Team herO WardiTV Team League Season 10 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 516 Specter of Death Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Gypsy to Korea BW General Discussion Are you ready for ASL 21? Hype VIDEO ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues IPSL Spring 2026 is here! ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8 BWCL Season 64 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread Path of Exile No Man's Sky (PS4 and PC) Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Mexico's Drug War Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion General nutrition recommendations Cricket [SPORT] TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Gaming-Related Deaths
TrAiDoS
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2819 users

MMR at the Mercy of the Ladder

Blogs > UmiNotsuki
Post a Reply
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 00:19:52
December 23 2011 00:18 GMT
#1
So one day before the S4-S5 ladder lock I secured a promotion to master league as Zerg. Wooooo! I had gone on a crazy winning streak, 14 games in a row against master players as high as 700 points; this, from someone who just two days before was losing to mid-high diamond players. I have no clue what happened but it felt GREAT. I wasn't cheesing, I was just playing well. Clean, solid, fun StarCraft II.

I'm now diamond again. Funny, I'm actually lower level diamond than I was before my promotion! At first I blamed my music -- I had been listening to techno and I thought maybe I was better off with something with a slower tempo (I'm just as big a fan of classical, folk, etc.,) so I switched that. No luck, still losing. Then I blamed stress from finals. I waited until my finals were done so I could relax (I aced all of them) and now I'm totally free. Still nothing.

So I took a more analytical approach, fired up SC2Gears and did some searching. Now, it's undeniable that on that 14 game winning streak I came across a good number of Zergs. I beat them handily, but they were the closest games of the streak. But recently my number of ZvZ's has been increasing, presumably just by chance (or maybe my new MMR is more heavily populated by Zergs.) Turns out the number of ZvZ's I play is directly correlated with my decrease in MMR.

Looking a little further, it would seem that if I never had any ZvZ's I'd be at a mid-master level because I easily beat mid-master Protoss and Terrans regularly. If I only played ZvZ's, I'd be no better than platinum. In fact, I know some platinum Zerg players who regularly whoop my ass in ZvZ's!

I'm now considering quitting SC2 because I don't enjoy playing as Protoss or Terran and I'd rather not play than have to play ZvZ's because I haven't been improving at ZvZ even slightly. It hurts to be playing lesser Terrans and Protoss' (it's not, but I want it to be Protossi) on ladder because I'm lesser in ZvZ. It's boring winning all of my ZvP and ZvT and losing all of my ZvZ, and never seeing ANY improvement.

I wonder if I'll really manage to quit.

*
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
FaZe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada472 Posts
December 23 2011 00:22 GMT
#2
Don't let ego ruin you.

Take a step back, objectively find the holes in your play, and patch them.

You only have to work on one matchup, it's easy.

Find a practice partner, grind out 20 games today.
"Victory needs no explanation; defeat allows none."
NEgroidZerg
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States244 Posts
December 23 2011 00:23 GMT
#3
Keep practicing and learn to win or 8pool every zvz. Both will probably gain you similiar win rate.
Yeah
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
December 23 2011 00:25 GMT
#4
On December 23 2011 09:22 FaZe wrote:
Don't let ego ruin you.

Take a step back, objectively find the holes in your play, and patch them.

You only have to work on one matchup, it's easy.

Find a practice partner, grind out 20 games today.


But that's just the thing! I've done that and I don't improve, every single game I lose to something different. I've asked better players than I how to do it, including a GM level player. He told me to "feel it out."

I am not a Jedi. I cannot win ZvZ like you!

On December 23 2011 09:23 NEgroidZerg wrote:
Keep practicing and learn to win or 8pool every zvz. Both will probably gain you similiar win rate.


I can't practice, it doesn't help; In fact, I may be getting worse. 8 pool... I've seriously considered it. I think I'm too proud.
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
December 23 2011 00:59 GMT
#5
play for fun!!!
Jaedong :3
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
December 23 2011 01:06 GMT
#6
On December 23 2011 09:59 ReketSomething wrote:
play for fun!!!


Haha, is that all you say in these blogs?

Nothing wrong with that, just funny.

I think the point is, I can't play for fun when I have to play ZvZ because ZvZ is not fun
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
S2Lunar
Profile Joined June 2011
1051 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 01:34:15
December 23 2011 01:32 GMT
#7
You want to stop playing Starcraft because you don't like/you're bad at ZvZ? Sorry, you will never be a good player with that attitude, in fact, I'm surprised you even got past bronze with that thinking.

Figure out your problems in the matchup, analyze your losses and what you could have done better, how you typically lose, find out the typical timings and stop making excuses for your losses. With every win streak is a loss streak but you're mentality is terrible.

ZvZ is quite fun for alot of people, however you don't find it fun because you don't know how to play it well.
ryndaris
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
263 Posts
December 23 2011 01:46 GMT
#8
I know the feeling OP. I love all the mixed match-ups and hate the mirrors (in terms of playing them.) Although in my case, I'm just kind of resigned when I get PvP so loosing there doesn't bother me anymore. The only thing stopping me from switching to Zerg or Terran are the mirrors though... there is no way in hell I'm ever going to play ZvZ or TvT.
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
December 23 2011 02:18 GMT
#9
There should be a "Morrow" race, with the number of people that dislike playing/suck at ZvZ.

Since you don't want to play it, then quit. It's a very valid choice. Go ahead, just stop playing. Go play Skyrim or SWTOR or those hundreds of games on Steam sale.
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
Mothra
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1448 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 02:49:08
December 23 2011 02:46 GMT
#10
On December 23 2011 09:18 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I'm now considering quitting SC2 because I don't enjoy playing as Protoss or Terran and I'd rather not play than have to play ZvZ's because I haven't been improving at ZvZ even slightly. It hurts to be playing lesser Terrans and Protoss' (it's not, but I want it to be Protossi) on ladder because I'm lesser in ZvZ. It's boring winning all of my ZvP and ZvT and losing all of my ZvZ, and never seeing ANY improvement.

I wonder if I'll really manage to quit.


"It hurts to be playing lesser terrans and protoss'" Seriously? I agree with above poster, quitting is perfectly valid option.
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 05:16:56
December 23 2011 05:15 GMT
#11
On December 23 2011 10:32 Toppp wrote:
You want to stop playing Starcraft because you don't like/you're bad at ZvZ? Sorry, you will never be a good player with that attitude, in fact, I'm surprised you even got past bronze with that thinking.

Figure out your problems in the matchup, analyze your losses and what you could have done better, how you typically lose, find out the typical timings and stop making excuses for your losses.
With every win streak is a loss streak but you're mentality is terrible.

ZvZ is quite fun for alot of people, however you don't find it fun because you don't know how to play it well.


I think what hes tried to express is that he has tried these things and is still unable to fix the holes in his ZvZ, hence his overwhelming frustration. So the bronze league poke is a bit unnecessary, that having been said your right, ythe mentality is wrong

Personally I struggle in matchups and then just have a eureka game where I just figured it out. I dont analyze ladder toto much because I usually know where I made my mistakes I just dont execute properly. Ofcourse that doesnt happen to everyone and its alot more mind game game oriented and at a much quicker pace than other matchups, so it tends to be something you just have to "get" Zerg seems to be the IN race these days at mid diamond to masters level on NA in my experience atleast thats the matchup I hit most frequently aswell, hence the reason your probably hitting alot of zergs. (they figured out how to make spine crawlers only took them a year trololol).
esla_sol
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States756 Posts
December 23 2011 05:22 GMT
#12
i personally leave over half the zvzs i get on ladder. still mid masters.
Vansetsu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1454 Posts
December 23 2011 06:21 GMT
#13
No need to quit SC2 man :<

But, you are always welcome to play more HoN with us. All the heroes are 10$ to unlock till the 26th, get on it!

Also jkrabbit can probably help you with zvz...
Only by overcoming many obstacles does a river become - デイヴィ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ド
mothergoose729
Profile Joined December 2010
United States666 Posts
December 23 2011 06:24 GMT
#14
I don't understand. Do a nestea roach ling timing every game. Learn something specialized, like a muta build. Or do a lot of 8 pool/10 pool whatever. ZvZ is dynamic and volatile, I find it hard to believe you can't make it fun. Play in a way that is fun for you. And practice it enough and you will win just because you have superior mechanics.

Personally, I haven't had fun in a 1v1 ladder game in a long time. I like to beat people. I like to improve at something challenging. The more I lose, the more motivated I become to suceed. I tell myself I am going to quit all the time but I think deep down I know I never will. I have to imagine that most people who play starcraft II, including you, feel the same way.
aggu
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
38 Posts
December 23 2011 07:16 GMT
#15

I think if some matchup is not fun or too hard to play, why not to not to play it? I insta quit many PvZ because they are too hard and not fun to play. I don't understand the matchup, so losing is a bit frustrating. And then I don't have the right mentality to play it. Eventually I will have to work with my pvz, but only when I feel that's going to be a fun thing to do.

Well, should I just try to practice my pvz? But it's better to keep playing what feels fun than trying to play something that doesn't, and the not to play that much after all, I think. This works for me, but maybe because I don't care about my league. I like it where I am now.

If there are any diamond-master level protoss here who would like to help me with pvz, that would be much appreciated...
Kid-Fox
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada400 Posts
December 23 2011 07:50 GMT
#16
Haha have the same problem vs zerg only I'm terran. I can steamroll terrans and protosses at my level but I lose every tvz that enters the macro game.

You gotta drill the weaknesses. Get practice partners man! And maybe even some coaching, which probably isn't too much of a waste if you're winning vs masters. Someday it'll click with enough games, hopefully.
Naid
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Sweden73 Posts
December 23 2011 08:32 GMT
#17
I felt the same when I played sc2, It requires alot of practice and a really thoughtout plan & close to perfection in some matchups, sadly enough I couldn't handle it and now I play dota2 fulltime
“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 12:28:41
December 23 2011 12:28 GMT
#18
ZvZ is much more simple that you seem to realize. You don't need to quit, and you don't need to rethink your game. You need to get a friend or a coach who plays at a high level to explain to you the intricacies of ZvZ.

It is absolutely a matchup that relies entirely around understanding what you can and cannot do.

Your problem is a very common one at that level, and it is very easily fixed.
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
December 23 2011 18:41 GMT
#19
On December 23 2011 15:21 Vansetsu wrote:
No need to quit SC2 man :<

But, you are always welcome to play more HoN with us. All the heroes are 10$ to unlock till the 26th, get on it!

Also jkrabbit can probably help you with zvz...


"Don't quit SC2!"
"Here's a great option for something else to do if you quit SC2!"
"Here's a reason not to quit SC2"

You're so unhelpful, man

On December 23 2011 21:28 MrBitter wrote:
ZvZ is much more simple that you seem to realize. You don't need to quit, and you don't need to rethink your game. You need to get a friend or a coach who plays at a high level to explain to you the intricacies of ZvZ.

It is absolutely a matchup that relies entirely around understanding what you can and cannot do.

Your problem is a very common one at that level, and it is very easily fixed.


If someone at your level says so, I'm inclined to believe it. Still, it's disheartening to swallow a demotion...!
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
TylerThaCreator
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States906 Posts
December 23 2011 20:15 GMT
#20
honestly it isn't even like you were bound to be promoted. <800 masters are basically just high diamonds in terms of both the system (almost basically just used up bonus pool) as well as their skill level. just keep playing and improving, you're actually a lot worse than you think
aka SethN
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Team League
12:00
Group B
WardiTV539
TKL 122
IndyStarCraft 106
Rex88
3DClanTV 35
Liquipedia
The PondCast
10:00
Episode 85
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
TKL 119
ProTech117
IndyStarCraft 102
Rex 81
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 46013
Jaedong 2329
BeSt 543
Larva 457
Mini 413
Soma 392
actioN 340
Stork 333
EffOrt 280
Snow 245
[ Show more ]
ZerO 228
Last 219
Rush 134
ggaemo 112
Pusan 78
JYJ 67
Backho 61
IntoTheRainbow 51
[sc1f]eonzerg 48
sSak 44
Sea.KH 43
Light 40
ToSsGirL 30
sorry 25
soO 22
Bale 21
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
zelot 13
GoRush 12
Icarus 7
Terrorterran 6
Dota 2
XcaliburYe174
canceldota26
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1440
x6flipin184
zeus176
edward39
byalli0
Other Games
singsing1696
B2W.Neo997
Liquid`RaSZi780
shoxiejesuss422
crisheroes274
hiko222
Fuzer 120
ZerO(Twitch)20
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream18998
Other Games
gamesdonequick692
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 72
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1773
• TFBlade665
• Stunt419
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
11h 18m
Replay Cast
1d 11h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 21h
RSL Revival
1d 21h
WardiTV Team League
1d 23h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Patches Events
2 days
BSL
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Team League
2 days
BSL
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
WardiTV Team League
4 days
GSL
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
WardiTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-11
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
BSL Season 22
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

CSL Elite League 2026
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
2026 Changsha Offline CUP
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
NationLESS Cup
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.