• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:43
CET 09:43
KST 17:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival10TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9
Community News
Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams4Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest3Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou22Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four3BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET11
StarCraft 2
General
Could we add "Avoid Matchup" Feature for rankgame RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou The New Patch Killed Mech! Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $3,500 WardiTV Korean Royale S4 Tenacious Turtle Tussle
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment
Brood War
General
BSL Season 21 BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET ASL Runner-Up Race Stats ASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking! [ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival
Tourneys
BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION [ASL20] Grand Finals ASL final tickets help [ASL20] Semifinal A
Strategy
Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Simple Questions, Simple Answers Roaring Currents ASL final
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently... Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Benefits Of Limited Comm…
TrAiDoS
Sabrina was soooo lame on S…
Peanutsc
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1474 users

MMR at the Mercy of the Ladder

Blogs > UmiNotsuki
Post a Reply
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 00:19:52
December 23 2011 00:18 GMT
#1
So one day before the S4-S5 ladder lock I secured a promotion to master league as Zerg. Wooooo! I had gone on a crazy winning streak, 14 games in a row against master players as high as 700 points; this, from someone who just two days before was losing to mid-high diamond players. I have no clue what happened but it felt GREAT. I wasn't cheesing, I was just playing well. Clean, solid, fun StarCraft II.

I'm now diamond again. Funny, I'm actually lower level diamond than I was before my promotion! At first I blamed my music -- I had been listening to techno and I thought maybe I was better off with something with a slower tempo (I'm just as big a fan of classical, folk, etc.,) so I switched that. No luck, still losing. Then I blamed stress from finals. I waited until my finals were done so I could relax (I aced all of them) and now I'm totally free. Still nothing.

So I took a more analytical approach, fired up SC2Gears and did some searching. Now, it's undeniable that on that 14 game winning streak I came across a good number of Zergs. I beat them handily, but they were the closest games of the streak. But recently my number of ZvZ's has been increasing, presumably just by chance (or maybe my new MMR is more heavily populated by Zergs.) Turns out the number of ZvZ's I play is directly correlated with my decrease in MMR.

Looking a little further, it would seem that if I never had any ZvZ's I'd be at a mid-master level because I easily beat mid-master Protoss and Terrans regularly. If I only played ZvZ's, I'd be no better than platinum. In fact, I know some platinum Zerg players who regularly whoop my ass in ZvZ's!

I'm now considering quitting SC2 because I don't enjoy playing as Protoss or Terran and I'd rather not play than have to play ZvZ's because I haven't been improving at ZvZ even slightly. It hurts to be playing lesser Terrans and Protoss' (it's not, but I want it to be Protossi) on ladder because I'm lesser in ZvZ. It's boring winning all of my ZvP and ZvT and losing all of my ZvZ, and never seeing ANY improvement.

I wonder if I'll really manage to quit.

*
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
FaZe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada472 Posts
December 23 2011 00:22 GMT
#2
Don't let ego ruin you.

Take a step back, objectively find the holes in your play, and patch them.

You only have to work on one matchup, it's easy.

Find a practice partner, grind out 20 games today.
"Victory needs no explanation; defeat allows none."
NEgroidZerg
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States244 Posts
December 23 2011 00:23 GMT
#3
Keep practicing and learn to win or 8pool every zvz. Both will probably gain you similiar win rate.
Yeah
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
December 23 2011 00:25 GMT
#4
On December 23 2011 09:22 FaZe wrote:
Don't let ego ruin you.

Take a step back, objectively find the holes in your play, and patch them.

You only have to work on one matchup, it's easy.

Find a practice partner, grind out 20 games today.


But that's just the thing! I've done that and I don't improve, every single game I lose to something different. I've asked better players than I how to do it, including a GM level player. He told me to "feel it out."

I am not a Jedi. I cannot win ZvZ like you!

On December 23 2011 09:23 NEgroidZerg wrote:
Keep practicing and learn to win or 8pool every zvz. Both will probably gain you similiar win rate.


I can't practice, it doesn't help; In fact, I may be getting worse. 8 pool... I've seriously considered it. I think I'm too proud.
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
December 23 2011 00:59 GMT
#5
play for fun!!!
Jaedong :3
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
December 23 2011 01:06 GMT
#6
On December 23 2011 09:59 ReketSomething wrote:
play for fun!!!


Haha, is that all you say in these blogs?

Nothing wrong with that, just funny.

I think the point is, I can't play for fun when I have to play ZvZ because ZvZ is not fun
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
S2Lunar
Profile Joined June 2011
1051 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 01:34:15
December 23 2011 01:32 GMT
#7
You want to stop playing Starcraft because you don't like/you're bad at ZvZ? Sorry, you will never be a good player with that attitude, in fact, I'm surprised you even got past bronze with that thinking.

Figure out your problems in the matchup, analyze your losses and what you could have done better, how you typically lose, find out the typical timings and stop making excuses for your losses. With every win streak is a loss streak but you're mentality is terrible.

ZvZ is quite fun for alot of people, however you don't find it fun because you don't know how to play it well.
ryndaris
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
263 Posts
December 23 2011 01:46 GMT
#8
I know the feeling OP. I love all the mixed match-ups and hate the mirrors (in terms of playing them.) Although in my case, I'm just kind of resigned when I get PvP so loosing there doesn't bother me anymore. The only thing stopping me from switching to Zerg or Terran are the mirrors though... there is no way in hell I'm ever going to play ZvZ or TvT.
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
December 23 2011 02:18 GMT
#9
There should be a "Morrow" race, with the number of people that dislike playing/suck at ZvZ.

Since you don't want to play it, then quit. It's a very valid choice. Go ahead, just stop playing. Go play Skyrim or SWTOR or those hundreds of games on Steam sale.
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
Mothra
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1448 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 02:49:08
December 23 2011 02:46 GMT
#10
On December 23 2011 09:18 UmiNotsuki wrote:
I'm now considering quitting SC2 because I don't enjoy playing as Protoss or Terran and I'd rather not play than have to play ZvZ's because I haven't been improving at ZvZ even slightly. It hurts to be playing lesser Terrans and Protoss' (it's not, but I want it to be Protossi) on ladder because I'm lesser in ZvZ. It's boring winning all of my ZvP and ZvT and losing all of my ZvZ, and never seeing ANY improvement.

I wonder if I'll really manage to quit.


"It hurts to be playing lesser terrans and protoss'" Seriously? I agree with above poster, quitting is perfectly valid option.
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 05:16:56
December 23 2011 05:15 GMT
#11
On December 23 2011 10:32 Toppp wrote:
You want to stop playing Starcraft because you don't like/you're bad at ZvZ? Sorry, you will never be a good player with that attitude, in fact, I'm surprised you even got past bronze with that thinking.

Figure out your problems in the matchup, analyze your losses and what you could have done better, how you typically lose, find out the typical timings and stop making excuses for your losses.
With every win streak is a loss streak but you're mentality is terrible.

ZvZ is quite fun for alot of people, however you don't find it fun because you don't know how to play it well.


I think what hes tried to express is that he has tried these things and is still unable to fix the holes in his ZvZ, hence his overwhelming frustration. So the bronze league poke is a bit unnecessary, that having been said your right, ythe mentality is wrong

Personally I struggle in matchups and then just have a eureka game where I just figured it out. I dont analyze ladder toto much because I usually know where I made my mistakes I just dont execute properly. Ofcourse that doesnt happen to everyone and its alot more mind game game oriented and at a much quicker pace than other matchups, so it tends to be something you just have to "get" Zerg seems to be the IN race these days at mid diamond to masters level on NA in my experience atleast thats the matchup I hit most frequently aswell, hence the reason your probably hitting alot of zergs. (they figured out how to make spine crawlers only took them a year trololol).
esla_sol
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States756 Posts
December 23 2011 05:22 GMT
#12
i personally leave over half the zvzs i get on ladder. still mid masters.
Vansetsu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1454 Posts
December 23 2011 06:21 GMT
#13
No need to quit SC2 man :<

But, you are always welcome to play more HoN with us. All the heroes are 10$ to unlock till the 26th, get on it!

Also jkrabbit can probably help you with zvz...
Only by overcoming many obstacles does a river become - デイヴィ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ド
mothergoose729
Profile Joined December 2010
United States666 Posts
December 23 2011 06:24 GMT
#14
I don't understand. Do a nestea roach ling timing every game. Learn something specialized, like a muta build. Or do a lot of 8 pool/10 pool whatever. ZvZ is dynamic and volatile, I find it hard to believe you can't make it fun. Play in a way that is fun for you. And practice it enough and you will win just because you have superior mechanics.

Personally, I haven't had fun in a 1v1 ladder game in a long time. I like to beat people. I like to improve at something challenging. The more I lose, the more motivated I become to suceed. I tell myself I am going to quit all the time but I think deep down I know I never will. I have to imagine that most people who play starcraft II, including you, feel the same way.
aggu
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
38 Posts
December 23 2011 07:16 GMT
#15

I think if some matchup is not fun or too hard to play, why not to not to play it? I insta quit many PvZ because they are too hard and not fun to play. I don't understand the matchup, so losing is a bit frustrating. And then I don't have the right mentality to play it. Eventually I will have to work with my pvz, but only when I feel that's going to be a fun thing to do.

Well, should I just try to practice my pvz? But it's better to keep playing what feels fun than trying to play something that doesn't, and the not to play that much after all, I think. This works for me, but maybe because I don't care about my league. I like it where I am now.

If there are any diamond-master level protoss here who would like to help me with pvz, that would be much appreciated...
Kid-Fox
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada400 Posts
December 23 2011 07:50 GMT
#16
Haha have the same problem vs zerg only I'm terran. I can steamroll terrans and protosses at my level but I lose every tvz that enters the macro game.

You gotta drill the weaknesses. Get practice partners man! And maybe even some coaching, which probably isn't too much of a waste if you're winning vs masters. Someday it'll click with enough games, hopefully.
Naid
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Sweden73 Posts
December 23 2011 08:32 GMT
#17
I felt the same when I played sc2, It requires alot of practice and a really thoughtout plan & close to perfection in some matchups, sadly enough I couldn't handle it and now I play dota2 fulltime
“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 12:28:41
December 23 2011 12:28 GMT
#18
ZvZ is much more simple that you seem to realize. You don't need to quit, and you don't need to rethink your game. You need to get a friend or a coach who plays at a high level to explain to you the intricacies of ZvZ.

It is absolutely a matchup that relies entirely around understanding what you can and cannot do.

Your problem is a very common one at that level, and it is very easily fixed.
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
December 23 2011 18:41 GMT
#19
On December 23 2011 15:21 Vansetsu wrote:
No need to quit SC2 man :<

But, you are always welcome to play more HoN with us. All the heroes are 10$ to unlock till the 26th, get on it!

Also jkrabbit can probably help you with zvz...


"Don't quit SC2!"
"Here's a great option for something else to do if you quit SC2!"
"Here's a reason not to quit SC2"

You're so unhelpful, man

On December 23 2011 21:28 MrBitter wrote:
ZvZ is much more simple that you seem to realize. You don't need to quit, and you don't need to rethink your game. You need to get a friend or a coach who plays at a high level to explain to you the intricacies of ZvZ.

It is absolutely a matchup that relies entirely around understanding what you can and cannot do.

Your problem is a very common one at that level, and it is very easily fixed.


If someone at your level says so, I'm inclined to believe it. Still, it's disheartening to swallow a demotion...!
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
TylerThaCreator
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States906 Posts
December 23 2011 20:15 GMT
#20
honestly it isn't even like you were bound to be promoted. <800 masters are basically just high diamonds in terms of both the system (almost basically just used up bonus pool) as well as their skill level. just keep playing and improving, you're actually a lot worse than you think
aka SethN
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 17m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 194
Codebar 9
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 1821
EffOrt 277
ToSsGirL 76
NotJumperer 24
League of Legends
JimRising 537
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K597
shoxiejesuss389
zeus193
Other Games
summit1g8909
singsing1100
Happy84
Mew2King55
Dewaltoss18
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL6895
Other Games
gamesdonequick644
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 18
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
3h 17m
CrankTV Team League
4h 17m
Streamerzone vs Shopify Rebellion
TBD vs Team Vitality
Monday Night Weeklies
8h 17m
BSL 21
16h 17m
Replay Cast
1d 1h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 3h
CrankTV Team League
1d 4h
BASILISK vs TBD
Team Liquid vs Team Falcon
BSL 21
1d 16h
Replay Cast
2 days
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
CrankTV Team League
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
BSL Team A[vengers]
5 days
Dewalt vs Shine
UltrA vs ZeLoT
BSL 21
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
BSL Team A[vengers]
6 days
Cross vs Motive
Sziky vs HiyA
BSL 21
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20
WardiTV TLMC #15
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
BSL 21 Team A
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.