EPTAs it turned out, there were players that cared neither about the prize money, nor the seeds, so they still didn't play.
Nobody was executed for this.
GOM's Big Mistake - Page 4
| Blogs > Antoine |
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
As it turned out, there were players that cared neither about the prize money, nor the seeds, so they still didn't play. Nobody was executed for this. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
There is a clear fundamental difference between not showing up to play and showing up and kicking the ball into your own goal. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 16 2011 14:25 Itsmedudeman wrote: But naniwa did play, and he made a mockery of GOM and the tournament on broadcast. That's the point, GOM never forced either of the players to actually play, and naniwa never made an effort to forfeit the game before it started. Instead he decided to disrespect everyone with clownish actions. Do we actually know this though? As in, was it posted somewhere? If it is true that he never attempted to forfeit before the game, then I withdraw my defense of his actions. | ||
Antoine
United States7481 Posts
On December 16 2011 14:36 Talin wrote: Do we actually know this though? As in, was it posted somewhere? If it is true that he never attempted to forfeit before the game, then I withdraw my defense of his actions. he said on live on 3 that he didn't ask if he could forfeit | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On December 16 2011 14:25 Itsmedudeman wrote: But naniwa did play, and he made a mockery of GOM and the tournament on broadcast. That's the point, GOM never forced either of the players to actually play, and naniwa never made an effort to forfeit the game before it started. Instead he decided to disrespect everyone with clownish actions. It would have been no different if he called them a joke right there on TV. There is a clear fundamental difference between not showing up to play and showing up and kicking the ball into your own goal. Word is that he did ask to forfeit and not play the match. I can't find any reliable testimony for or against it. It's just what I've heard. So I can't say for sure that he did ask for a forfeit and you can't say for sure that he didn't. On December 16 2011 14:38 Antoine wrote: he said on live on 3 that he didn't ask if he could forfeit Given this public statement, I'm not gonna bother defending the point anymore. He really has no choice but to say that publicly, since saying the opposite makes gomtv look worse. It's pretty clear that Naniwa and Quantic want to defuse the situation and minimize the harm that comes to gomtv so it'd be a pretty big blunder to report something that shifts responsibility toward gomtv. So I'll assume he didn't ask for a forfeit. All that means is that he didn't throw the issue into gomtv's face. There was nothing stopping gomtv from being aware of the situation and taking some care before the match to make sure everything goes well. There's no reason to think that gomtv is better off being passive. I'm sure anyone with some related experience will agree that being proactive and observing problems forming and preventing them is the best way to operate. So just to be clear, since it actually is gomtv's responsibility, then the issue should be about whether gomtv approached naniwa and offered him to forfeit the match if he wanted to, and made it clear that if he does play, then he ought to try hard enough to put on a good show and do the game justice. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
Edit: ah screw it, I'm done with this. xD | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
There are so many great starcraft players but two of the biggest tournament winners against each other? That's a match that many would watch for the sake of the match and not it's importance for their rankings. But that's not what happened and as you said, as we go into 2012 I hope everyone remembers what was taught in December 2011. Thanks for the writeup. It's one of the few out of the mass of opinions I've stomached a read through. | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
On December 16 2011 14:48 Probe1 wrote: Good writeup. I'm tired and can't offer a coherent retort on the single line "It's not like people want to watch meaningless games, either." but suffice to say that many people would watch a tournament game of Nestea whether it mattered for his advancement or not. The same can be said about Naniwa. Them versing each other.. To the extent that a game is meaningful, players will try to win it. To the extent that the players are trying to win, people want to watch it. It's not perfectly true but it's definitely more true than it is false. | ||
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Kahuna.
Canada196 Posts
On December 16 2011 14:58 Liquid`Tyler wrote: To the extent that a game is meaningful, players will try to win it. To the extent that the players are trying to win, people want to watch it. It's not perfectly true but it's definitely more true than it is false. But 'meaningful' is relative. Different players will approach the meaning of a game differently. If you look at the reaction of the various Korean pros who codemned Naniwa for his decision, they mention that they would've loved to have been on that stage to battle with NesTea, meaningful game or not. A player should try to play any game that he is scheduled to play in any scenario if the game is being featured to an audience as large as the one for the Blizzard Cup. If a player decides not to, then he should respectfully ask for a forfeit, but not unprofessionally conduct himself in the way Naniwa did. Once you enter the booth and the broadcast is ready to go, you should play a solid game... sure you don't need to reveal any strategies if you don't want to... but would it kill a foreign player to play a solid game in celebration of the fact that he was invited to Korea to participate in a pretigious tournament with some of the world's biggest heavy weights. By this point I am just trying to exemplify that how 'meaningful' a game is will depend on the player. I am confident that many other players would've approached the game from the perspective I am presenting here... "yes I lost 0-3 and yes I'm disappointed, but it's been great that I've been invited to such a great tournament with some of the world's best and it is an honour to be playing my last game against NesTea, so I will play as well as I can without revealing any special strategy I had prepared out of respect for my fans and the huge number of people at home watching." I don't think this way of thinking is harmful to anyone and in fact, I think this way of thinking from players is actually better - rather than worse - for E-Sports. | ||
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Telegnosis
United States49 Posts
#1: Having NaNiwa play against Nestea actually represents a step BACKWARDS in terms of tournament structure. Before this, the GSL has always sought to streamline their format to produce games where the stakes are clear and significant. Up until now, the best tournament formats in SC2 in my opinion have been the TSL and the GSL. Suddenly GOM decides to go completely in the opposite direction. Now, in truth, even the Blizzard cup was better than many other tournaments. But as bad as I feel supporting the bad decisions of others, I feel even worse supporting a bad decision that follows good ones. Like I'm not just encouraging something bad, but I'm actively inviting them to do even worse. #2: No other major SC2 tournament that I know of has punished a player for how they chose to play(or not play) a single game. This is probably because at some level they are aware that they share some responsibility for such anomalies. GOM continues to take no responsibility for this incident. I'm not asking that they absolve NaNiwa of any wrongdoing. I can accept that they don't feel it's appropriate to reward him with a code S seed directly following a match that he plainly threw. It sure would be nice to see a genuine apology for their own part in this, though. I'd really like to watch GSL in the new year. I'm excited about their format changes for next season. I'm really excited to see Idra and Sen in code S. I'd enjoy it a whole lot more though, if I didn't have to wonder whether I'm contributing to the growth of e-sports, or tearing it down. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On December 16 2011 05:35 Antoine wrote: Starcraft event organizers need to take similar steps. I feel compelled to point out that one has taken steps. This is why MLG has the extended series rule and why I have argued time and again for MLG to keep the extended series rule (excepting in tournament finals, which should always be bo7) Extended series means that no pool play game is ever pointless. Even if a player has secured first place in the pool, there is still a chance that they may meet an opponent again in the championship bracket, and down 0-2 is not the way you want to start a series. It makes the game more fair and makes relevant many pool matches that would otherwise not be so. So MLG had done their part in this regard. Yet people have complained and whined about the extended series from day 1 of SC2 in MLG. They say it's not fair, or it makes it less exciting, etc. etc. For all the complaints, honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see extended series gone next season, and what a shame that would be. MLG has really pioneered a great format here. While it the rule certainly needs tweaking when it comes to the tournament final, the over all effect has been great. Every game should count for something. On December 16 2011 13:33 Liquid`Tyler wrote: MLG's pool play, keeping in mind the extended series rule, is an example of a non-elimination format that makes every game count. Every placement in pool play is significant. And even when a pool play match won't effect a player's placement in the pool, there is a chance that those two players will meet in the championship bracket and play an extended series. Yes! | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
all the ppl saying naniwa 'owes it to everyone to try his best' r retarded not that i would have done what naniwa did, cuz its a bitch move, but still it's the tournament's fault for making meaningless matches possible | ||
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Telegnosis
United States49 Posts
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Kahuna.
Canada196 Posts
On December 16 2011 16:31 Rekrul wrote: all the ppl saying naniwa 'owes it to everyone to try his best' r retarded Seeing as he himself apologized for his actions (forcefully or otherwise) shows that these people aren't retarded and their opinions matter. Moreover without the "everyone" who pay to watch their games, progamers wouldn't be progamers so to an extent, yes he is obligated to play his game for the fans. Even you refer to what he did as a "bitch move"... why is it a "bitch move"? It's a "bitch move" because it shows a lack of respect for GOM, the thousands of people who paid to watch the game at the time, and E-Sports in general. | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 16 2011 16:50 Kahuna. wrote: Seeing as he himself apologized for his actions (forcefully or otherwise) shows that these people aren't retarded and their opinions matter. Moreover without the "everyone" who pay to watch their games, progamers wouldn't be progamers so to an extent, yes he is obligated to play his game for the fans. Even you refer to what he did as a "bitch move"... why is it a "bitch move"? It's a "bitch move" because it shows a lack of respect for GOM, the thousands of people who paid to watch the game at the time, and E-Sports in general. seems to me like the entire industry was entertained by it ty naniwa | ||
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Kahuna.
Canada196 Posts
On December 16 2011 17:07 Rekrul wrote: seems to me like the entire industry was entertained by it ty naniwa If by "entertained" you mean it gave everyone something to talk about, then yes, you're right. In that case, TY Naniwa indeed. | ||
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Ninjahoe
Sweden148 Posts
On December 16 2011 08:44 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: When it comes to complaining about the format I wish people would focus their complaints on the scene as a whole and not just GOM. The fact that Naniwa did it on GOM and not anywhere else really doesn't make the GOM system worse than the other tournaments that do the same. IEM/DH/Assembly/IPL/GOM all use group stages where meaningless games are bound to happen. Don't single out GOM when complaining about a format. Classic example of result based reasoning, whereas the issue is the input, i.e. the format. This is not unique to GOM. If you have an issue with the group formats as they exist you don't just have an issue with GOM. Don't focus your format hate only on them, but spread it out equally over every tournament format you disagree with. Also, soccer's national leagues have plenty of matches near the end of the season that don't mean a thing, btw. So no it is not fixed in other professional sports. IEM, DH, Assembly and IPL also use these group plays, that's very true. What's not true though, is that they are yet to punish a player for not playing a pointless game. Sugarcoat it as much as you want, it still doesn't make what you said relevant. And you can't possibly compare this with soccer do you? Even these pointless games in soccer (with lower attendance then meaningful ones) draw income for your team in ticket sales etc. Comparing these would be appropriate if NaNi got a share money/viewer. | ||
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Frankon
3054 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:33 Liquid`Tyler wrote: You don't mean to say "literally no tournament formats" when you follow it up like that. You know that there are popular tournament formats that don't have useless games but you think that they introduce even worse cons. MLG's pool play, keeping in mind the extended series rule, is an example of a non-elimination format that makes every game count. Every placement in pool play is significant. And even when a pool play match won't effect a player's placement in the pool, there is a chance that those two players will meet in the championship bracket and play an extended series. The MLG's pool play makes MLG Open Bracket meaningless 95% of time (Naniwa being in that other 5%) PS. When was the last time you (or any other pro) showed up for MLG consolidation matches? You took part of tournament format that supposedly makes every game count but forgot about the rest of the said tournament format On December 16 2011 16:31 Rekrul wrote: agreed, all the ppl saying naniwa 'owes it to everyone to try his best' r retarded not that i would have done what naniwa did, cuz its a bitch move, but still it's the tournament's fault for making meaningless matches possible I have to partially agree with you. But still those matches wouldn't be possible without players playing so bad that they would fail to get even one win. | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
On December 16 2011 22:27 nttea wrote: Yay! an opinion that isn't full of retard, i can get behind this! also agree with rekrul that naniwa did a bitch move to avoid playing it out with nestea. Yup. I can fully appreciate what the OP has written. I don't know why people make such a big deal out of this and I've seen Saviors name written at least 5 times now. Rekrul is right. What naniwa did was a shitty move but I can't blame him and I even stayed up to watch it. If this event did seriously hurt you in some way there are more pressing issues for those of you to worry about. | ||
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