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On December 10 2011 02:01 esReveR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:41 Torenhire wrote:
Just because keys are closer together doesn't mean they are better hotkeys.
ForGG (and other BW players) memorized BW hotkeys, played with said hotkeys at a very high level. Hotkeys become muscle memory over time, so it makes 100% perfect sense to prefer and stay using BW style hotkeys instead of SC2 ones. I do this constantly and I havent played BW in probably 3 years: I keep hitting BW hotkeys for units. I always hit the wrong hotkey for "O"verlord, almost EVERY SINGLE GAME. I always hit "P"robe and still hotkey my nexus at 9,0
If you're more efficient in an "unefficient" setup, then why bother switching over? I did that all throughout beta, but it wasn't that hard of a transition to the new keys... They are so much more sensible that there's really no reason not to take the time to swap.
To be honest, that's just an opinion. "P" for probe and "O" for overlord make more sense to me than E and V.
My natural hand position on the keyboard is in a place where I can hit O/P pretty easily.
It's not that anyones hotkeys are any better than someone elses, it's all totally personal preference.
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On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P
You have no idea what the progamers do to save a quarter of a second.
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On December 10 2011 02:08 Torenhire wrote:
JTo be honest, that's just an opinion. "P" for probe and "O" for overlord make more sense to me than E and V.
My natural hand position on the keyboard is in a place where I can hit O/P pretty easily.
It's not that anyones hotkeys are any better than someone elses, it's all totally personal preference.
True, but the rest of the keys are grouped around the same area in SC2, whereas in BW they were everywhere (talking default). Granted if you changed your whole hotkey setup to a comfortable spot like a lot of pros do, then it's fine to stay on the same keys.
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Using O for overlord and P for probe is overpowered.
icwatudidthar
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And for the worst joke posted on TL in the year 2011 award...
drumroll
JojoE and his OP hotkeys joke!!!!!!
On December 10 2011 02:26 JojoE wrote:
Using O for overlord and P for probe is overpowered.
icwatudidthar
fanfare music plays as the spotlight zooms in on JojoE
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On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible.
Except the point is, by 10 minutes into the game, there have been so many quarter-seconds saved up that now it's a ten seconds difference. Again, it's the sum of all of these button presses that have saved time attached to it.
Imagine if one of your most necessary hotkeys (like Build Structure) was fixed on your least comfortable keyboard button. Every time you pressed that button, you would lose a fraction of a second (assuming you worked on hitting your timings perfectly, which is something players strive to do). Now in addition, imagine if multiple hotkeys were fixed into poorly placed spots. These seconds adds up.
You're still wrong lol. Everything adds up- even the smallest intervals of time are important in StarCraft. And they count the most with the pro-gamers, like fOrGG. They'll do anything they can to get ahead, even by the tiniest margin. That's why they go from not splitting drones, to splitting half and half, to splitting even more if possible. That's why they come up with perfect sets of hotkeys. That's why they practice hitting their timings perfectly. Everything adds up.
Heck, haven't you ever heard of a timing attack before? What do you think that is? lol.
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makes sense, it takes alot of time to train new hotkeys
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When I occasionally play sc2, I use U for burrow (RIP Lurkers), O for overlord, and the location hotkeys. Dun change anything else.
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On December 10 2011 02:01 esReveR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:41 Torenhire wrote:
Just because keys are closer together doesn't mean they are better hotkeys.
ForGG (and other BW players) memorized BW hotkeys, played with said hotkeys at a very high level. Hotkeys become muscle memory over time, so it makes 100% perfect sense to prefer and stay using BW style hotkeys instead of SC2 ones. I do this constantly and I havent played BW in probably 3 years: I keep hitting BW hotkeys for units. I always hit the wrong hotkey for "O"verlord, almost EVERY SINGLE GAME. I always hit "P"robe and still hotkey my nexus at 9,0
If you're more efficient in an "unefficient" setup, then why bother switching over? I did that all throughout beta, but it wasn't that hard of a transition to the new keys... They are so much more sensible that there's really no reason not to take the time to swap.
Somehow I think the transition might be a bit harder for someone who played BW 12 hours a day for several years.
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On December 10 2011 02:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible. Except the point is, by 10 minutes into the game, there have been so many quarter-seconds saved up that now it's a ten seconds difference. Again, it's the sum of all of these button presses that have saved time attached to it. Imagine if one of your most necessary hotkeys (like Build Structure) was fixed on your least comfortable keyboard button. Every time you pressed that button, you would lose a fraction of a second (assuming you worked on hitting your timings perfectly, which is something players strive to do). Now in addition, imagine if multiple hotkeys were fixed into poorly placed spots. These seconds adds up. You're still wrong lol. Everything adds up- even the smallest intervals of time are important in StarCraft. And they count the most with the pro-gamers, like fOrGG. They'll do anything they can to get ahead, even by the tiniest margin. That's why they go from not splitting drones, to splitting half and half, to splitting even more if possible. That's why they come up with perfect sets of hotkeys. That's why they practice hitting their timings perfectly. Everything adds up. Heck, haven't you ever heard of a timing attack before? What do you think that is? lol.
Nope you misunderstand me. Whilst these small "gains" add up they have no real effect on the outcome of a game and are dwarfed by factors like build and execution. Starcraft is not so simple that you can freely assume that these fractions of a second will happily build into 10 or so effective seconds. It isn't real.
Your efficiency is a glass of water being poured into a lake.
Those seconds saved would only have a lasting effect if someone were to play the "perfect" game.
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On December 10 2011 01:18 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I think it's all about practiced hand motion and muscle memory. IIRC HuK still puts his Nexus on 0 (I'm not sure if he uses P for Probe or not)
I didn't play much Brood War so I can't really comment past that.
His nexus on 0 doesn't actually mean he uses the 0 key to use it. You can change your keys to anything.
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On December 10 2011 03:08 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible. Except the point is, by 10 minutes into the game, there have been so many quarter-seconds saved up that now it's a ten seconds difference. Again, it's the sum of all of these button presses that have saved time attached to it. Imagine if one of your most necessary hotkeys (like Build Structure) was fixed on your least comfortable keyboard button. Every time you pressed that button, you would lose a fraction of a second (assuming you worked on hitting your timings perfectly, which is something players strive to do). Now in addition, imagine if multiple hotkeys were fixed into poorly placed spots. These seconds adds up. You're still wrong lol. Everything adds up- even the smallest intervals of time are important in StarCraft. And they count the most with the pro-gamers, like fOrGG. They'll do anything they can to get ahead, even by the tiniest margin. That's why they go from not splitting drones, to splitting half and half, to splitting even more if possible. That's why they come up with perfect sets of hotkeys. That's why they practice hitting their timings perfectly. Everything adds up. Heck, haven't you ever heard of a timing attack before? What do you think that is? lol. Nope you misunderstand me. Whilst these small "gains" add up they have no real effect on the outcome of a game and are dwarfed by factors like build and execution. Starcraft is not so simple that you can freely assume that these fractions of a second will happily build into 10 or so effective seconds. It isn't real. Your efficiency is a glass of water being poured into a lake. Those seconds saved would only have a lasting effect if someone were to play the "perfect" game.
This is exactly part of execution, which makes it very real. This is a set of mechanics that players work on over and over and over again. Start with the most extreme example: try playing without the keyboard at all. Only use the mouse. You're going to be much slower in-game, your execution of your builds and attacks will be much slower, and you're going to play much worse. Your macro and micro will be terrible. Now try using at most five keyboard hotkeys, but no control groups. Slightly better, but still not optimal. Then allow yourself a little more, and the execution of your gameplay becomes smoother. Finally, as you're allowed all of the functions of the keyboard (including re-binding hotkeys, if you wish), your play can become optimized, as you shave off seconds and then eventually fractions of seconds.
A pro-gamer cares about every glass of water in the lake, because that could be the difference between first and second place in the GSL. The 99.99% of other players might not care that much, but those players aren't BW pros switching over to SC2. And, for what it's worth, keep in mind that if you have enough glasses of water, you *can* fill a lake.
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On December 10 2011 03:18 Legion710 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:18 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I think it's all about practiced hand motion and muscle memory. IIRC HuK still puts his Nexus on 0 (I'm not sure if he uses P for Probe or not)
I didn't play much Brood War so I can't really comment past that. His nexus on 0 doesn't actually mean he uses the 0 key to use it. You can change your keys to anything.
Still it does for HuK. He actually uses 0 for his Nexus.
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On a side note,does any one else think ForGG is kinda gimmicky?I didn't see him going for a huge macro game,but he sure does love banshees.
Not meant to hate on the guy just a random discussion.
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I use BW hotkeys for my Terran account. Terran is the only race I played enough to have them memorized fully in BW so it is easier. If I hotkey my tanks separately, I set them to 9 or 0 so the movement is smoother. M for marines is the main reason I use it though, because I like using my thumb a ton in that setup. It feels more efficient than the standard hotkeys. I also feel that when they are spread out like that I don't make as many misclicks with my keyboard. Just remember the hotkeys by calling the units Farauders, Wikings, Ghors, etc.
For ForGG, I imagine it is more muscle memory than anything. He's hit O to siege his tanks for a long time so why switch now.
On December 10 2011 03:40 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
On a side note,does any one else think ForGG is kinda gimmicky?I didn't see him going for a huge macro game,but he sure does love banshees.
Not meant to hate on the guy just a random discussion. I would imagine he was just practicing random stuff and didn't want to give his actual good builds away on stream. He seems to know a lot of odd timings no one else does and his ability to exploit them is kinda terrifying. His macro was solid on his stream yesterday but he seemed to kill his opponents so quickly he didn't even need to macro. Though I was wondering why he was proxy-2raxing so much.
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On December 10 2011 03:40 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
On a side note,does any one else think ForGG is kinda gimmicky?I didn't see him going for a huge macro game,but he sure does love banshees.
Not meant to hate on the guy just a random discussion.
I think banshees are strong enough to be used both as harrass units and as part of a Terran army. Certainly more versatile than the "paper plane" wraith of BW. I think fOrGG just does a good job of using the right units at the right time, and focusing on maximum efficiency (at the moment, at least). He seems to see no reason to make it a 30 minute game if he can win in 15.
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On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible.
Huh? If you normally take a quarter per action but take an extra quarter because of inefficiency your APM goes from 240 to 120, you realize that a quarter isn't insignificant?
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On December 10 2011 02:15 esReveR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:08 Torenhire wrote:
JTo be honest, that's just an opinion. "P" for probe and "O" for overlord make more sense to me than E and V.
My natural hand position on the keyboard is in a place where I can hit O/P pretty easily.
It's not that anyones hotkeys are any better than someone elses, it's all totally personal preference. True, but the rest of the keys are grouped around the same area in SC2, whereas in BW they were everywhere (talking default). Granted if you changed your whole hotkey setup to a comfortable spot like a lot of pros do, then it's fine to stay on the same keys.
Just FYI - changing hotkeys in BW required an external program and was considered cheating. Guaranteed no pros did it.
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SC2 hotkeys are optimized to reduce hand distance.
There is not a significant difference in time to press the keys either way.
i switched to sc2 default because i wasnt very good at bw anyways even tho i was still playing it.
It took a long time to stop pressing 0-p tho haha.
0-p-9-p-8-d-7-d-6-d-5-d-4-d draguuuuuunz
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In the long run it would be better to attempt a switch though. You have the option of binding 2 keys at once for the same bind so you could slowly get used to it.
In BW they made you use the most efficient ways whether you liked it or not
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EPT
