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I was watching ForGGs stream and noticed something really cool. His hotkeys are the same as in BroodWar. I figured someone would prefer Starcraft2 hotkeys over BroodWar as they seem more efficient to me, but I could also see it being difficult to re-learn hotkeys you used for years.
Did any of you BroodWar players do the same thing when/if you play Starcraft2? I just feel that M for Marine and O for siege mode gets a little annoying when I play BroodWar.
I haven't got to see all of his setup but a few I have seen are.
Marine, F Marauder, V Raven, WViking. I could go on but you get the idea. The only ones I could see being a real problem personally are Marine and Siege Mode. Whats your opinion on BroodWar hotkeys in Starcraft2?
As I personally like to take a break from Starcraft2 and play some Broodwar a few times a day I get aggravated when I try to play Terran 2v2 in Starcraft2 as I'm used to Terran hotkeys in BroodWar and I always try BroodWar hotkeys when I'm playing Terran causing me to mess up alot but it doesn't effect me when I'm playing Zerg.
 
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United States6151 Posts
I think it's all about practiced hand motion and muscle memory. IIRC HuK still puts his Nexus on 0 (I'm not sure if he uses P for Probe or not)
I didn't play much Brood War so I can't really comment past that.
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Thats pretty interesting, although it absolutely makes sense that he would want to stick with the hotkeys he has ingrained over the years. It makes me wonder who much of an effect "Convenient" hotkeys can really have.
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It makes complete sense, he has played BW for so long, using M for marine, and O for siege mode, why not assign units which perform similar functions to their BW counterparts to the same hotkeys?
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That is really interesting. I wonder if other BW pro's will change their hotkey's too?
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Korea (South)11578 Posts
When I play SC2 (very rarely) my shortkeys are the same as the ones in BW.
(i.e. probe - P, cybernetics core - y, stalker - d, zealot charge - L)
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On December 10 2011 01:26 CaucasianAsian wrote:
When I play SC2 (very rarely) my shortkeys are the same as the ones in BW.
(i.e. probe - P, cybernetics core - y, stalker - d, zealot charge - L)
It makes sense for easy switching between BW and Starcraft2, and its easier to use hotkeys you already know but say you switched full time to Starcraft2 would you keep BW hotkeys because you are used to them or change to a setup where all the keys are close together?
In short do you prefer the ones you already know or would you rather have efficiency?
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May be less efficient to keep the same hotkeys, but so is typing on a QWERTY. Like the poser above said, what you already know or efficiency.
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I personally prefer grid hotkeys.
I see no point in having to grab across my whole keyboard to hit O to build an overlord or what ever other crazy standard hotkeys there are.
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On December 10 2011 01:38 Skilledblob wrote:
I personally prefer grid hotkeys.
I see no point in having to grab across my whole keyboard to hit O to build an overlord or what ever other crazy standard hotkeys there are.
I'm confused as I didn't know BroodWar had grid, unless you mean Starcraft2 then Overlord is V I believe. I revamped mine to E. As my entire bottom row is Camera keys.
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Just because keys are closer together doesn't mean they are better hotkeys.
ForGG (and other BW players) memorized BW hotkeys, played with said hotkeys at a very high level. Hotkeys become muscle memory over time, so it makes 100% perfect sense to prefer and stay using BW style hotkeys instead of SC2 ones. I do this constantly and I havent played BW in probably 3 years: I keep hitting BW hotkeys for units. I always hit the wrong hotkey for "O"verlord, almost EVERY SINGLE GAME. I always hit "P"robe and still hotkey my nexus at 9,0
If you're more efficient in an "unefficient" setup, then why bother switching over?
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Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P
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I never said they were better, I just assumed that hitting E/V for Overlord instead of O would be easier?
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On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P
Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands?
Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds.
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Relearning hotkeys is such a utter frustating thing to do i'm not sure if it's even worth the effort.
Unlearning hotkeys takes a lot of time and the end result of switching to a more efficient hotkey layout may not even be worth it.
There are tons of examples in innovations, systems etc. where a less efficient setup is used simply because people are used to the old system and it's too costly to switch. Think of voltage on the net, qwerty layout, etc. etc.
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I find it crazy that he's been playing for a while and he hasn't gotten used to sc2 settings, including health bars. However, I do not think the hotkeys hinder him at all, BW pros used god damn 890 hotkeys.
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On December 10 2011 01:46 -Dustin- wrote:
I never said they were better, I just assumed that hitting E/V for Overlord instead of O would be easier?
Yeah but if you played BW where the hotkey for Overlord was O...and you played BW for...lets say 4 years?
4 years of habitually pressing 5so for an overlord sticks with you for a looooong time, was my point.
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I guess its natural to stick with a hotkey pattern that you already know. I switched to Grid for WC3 when I started to play random because memorizing all of the hotkeys seemed so stressful to me and when I made the switch to SC2 I just sticked to the Grid that I learned with WC3 - its a different route but something very similar.
If your hand rests in a certain position for years then that will simply stick, I guess.
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On December 10 2011 01:41 Torenhire wrote:
Just because keys are closer together doesn't mean they are better hotkeys.
ForGG (and other BW players) memorized BW hotkeys, played with said hotkeys at a very high level. Hotkeys become muscle memory over time, so it makes 100% perfect sense to prefer and stay using BW style hotkeys instead of SC2 ones. I do this constantly and I havent played BW in probably 3 years: I keep hitting BW hotkeys for units. I always hit the wrong hotkey for "O"verlord, almost EVERY SINGLE GAME. I always hit "P"robe and still hotkey my nexus at 9,0
If you're more efficient in an "unefficient" setup, then why bother switching over?
I did that all throughout beta, but it wasn't that hard of a transition to the new keys... They are so much more sensible that there's really no reason not to take the time to swap.
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On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds.
Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible.
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On December 10 2011 02:01 esReveR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:41 Torenhire wrote:
Just because keys are closer together doesn't mean they are better hotkeys.
ForGG (and other BW players) memorized BW hotkeys, played with said hotkeys at a very high level. Hotkeys become muscle memory over time, so it makes 100% perfect sense to prefer and stay using BW style hotkeys instead of SC2 ones. I do this constantly and I havent played BW in probably 3 years: I keep hitting BW hotkeys for units. I always hit the wrong hotkey for "O"verlord, almost EVERY SINGLE GAME. I always hit "P"robe and still hotkey my nexus at 9,0
If you're more efficient in an "unefficient" setup, then why bother switching over? I did that all throughout beta, but it wasn't that hard of a transition to the new keys... They are so much more sensible that there's really no reason not to take the time to swap.
To be honest, that's just an opinion. "P" for probe and "O" for overlord make more sense to me than E and V.
My natural hand position on the keyboard is in a place where I can hit O/P pretty easily.
It's not that anyones hotkeys are any better than someone elses, it's all totally personal preference.
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On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P
You have no idea what the progamers do to save a quarter of a second.
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On December 10 2011 02:08 Torenhire wrote:
JTo be honest, that's just an opinion. "P" for probe and "O" for overlord make more sense to me than E and V.
My natural hand position on the keyboard is in a place where I can hit O/P pretty easily.
It's not that anyones hotkeys are any better than someone elses, it's all totally personal preference.
True, but the rest of the keys are grouped around the same area in SC2, whereas in BW they were everywhere (talking default). Granted if you changed your whole hotkey setup to a comfortable spot like a lot of pros do, then it's fine to stay on the same keys.
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Using O for overlord and P for probe is overpowered.
icwatudidthar
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And for the worst joke posted on TL in the year 2011 award...
drumroll
JojoE and his OP hotkeys joke!!!!!!
On December 10 2011 02:26 JojoE wrote:
Using O for overlord and P for probe is overpowered.
icwatudidthar
fanfare music plays as the spotlight zooms in on JojoE
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On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible.
Except the point is, by 10 minutes into the game, there have been so many quarter-seconds saved up that now it's a ten seconds difference. Again, it's the sum of all of these button presses that have saved time attached to it.
Imagine if one of your most necessary hotkeys (like Build Structure) was fixed on your least comfortable keyboard button. Every time you pressed that button, you would lose a fraction of a second (assuming you worked on hitting your timings perfectly, which is something players strive to do). Now in addition, imagine if multiple hotkeys were fixed into poorly placed spots. These seconds adds up.
You're still wrong lol. Everything adds up- even the smallest intervals of time are important in StarCraft. And they count the most with the pro-gamers, like fOrGG. They'll do anything they can to get ahead, even by the tiniest margin. That's why they go from not splitting drones, to splitting half and half, to splitting even more if possible. That's why they come up with perfect sets of hotkeys. That's why they practice hitting their timings perfectly. Everything adds up.
Heck, haven't you ever heard of a timing attack before? What do you think that is? lol.
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makes sense, it takes alot of time to train new hotkeys
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When I occasionally play sc2, I use U for burrow (RIP Lurkers), O for overlord, and the location hotkeys. Dun change anything else.
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On December 10 2011 02:01 esReveR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:41 Torenhire wrote:
Just because keys are closer together doesn't mean they are better hotkeys.
ForGG (and other BW players) memorized BW hotkeys, played with said hotkeys at a very high level. Hotkeys become muscle memory over time, so it makes 100% perfect sense to prefer and stay using BW style hotkeys instead of SC2 ones. I do this constantly and I havent played BW in probably 3 years: I keep hitting BW hotkeys for units. I always hit the wrong hotkey for "O"verlord, almost EVERY SINGLE GAME. I always hit "P"robe and still hotkey my nexus at 9,0
If you're more efficient in an "unefficient" setup, then why bother switching over? I did that all throughout beta, but it wasn't that hard of a transition to the new keys... They are so much more sensible that there's really no reason not to take the time to swap.
Somehow I think the transition might be a bit harder for someone who played BW 12 hours a day for several years.
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On December 10 2011 02:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible. Except the point is, by 10 minutes into the game, there have been so many quarter-seconds saved up that now it's a ten seconds difference. Again, it's the sum of all of these button presses that have saved time attached to it. Imagine if one of your most necessary hotkeys (like Build Structure) was fixed on your least comfortable keyboard button. Every time you pressed that button, you would lose a fraction of a second (assuming you worked on hitting your timings perfectly, which is something players strive to do). Now in addition, imagine if multiple hotkeys were fixed into poorly placed spots. These seconds adds up. You're still wrong lol. Everything adds up- even the smallest intervals of time are important in StarCraft. And they count the most with the pro-gamers, like fOrGG. They'll do anything they can to get ahead, even by the tiniest margin. That's why they go from not splitting drones, to splitting half and half, to splitting even more if possible. That's why they come up with perfect sets of hotkeys. That's why they practice hitting their timings perfectly. Everything adds up. Heck, haven't you ever heard of a timing attack before? What do you think that is? lol.
Nope you misunderstand me. Whilst these small "gains" add up they have no real effect on the outcome of a game and are dwarfed by factors like build and execution. Starcraft is not so simple that you can freely assume that these fractions of a second will happily build into 10 or so effective seconds. It isn't real.
Your efficiency is a glass of water being poured into a lake.
Those seconds saved would only have a lasting effect if someone were to play the "perfect" game.
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On December 10 2011 01:18 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I think it's all about practiced hand motion and muscle memory. IIRC HuK still puts his Nexus on 0 (I'm not sure if he uses P for Probe or not)
I didn't play much Brood War so I can't really comment past that.
His nexus on 0 doesn't actually mean he uses the 0 key to use it. You can change your keys to anything.
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On December 10 2011 03:08 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible. Except the point is, by 10 minutes into the game, there have been so many quarter-seconds saved up that now it's a ten seconds difference. Again, it's the sum of all of these button presses that have saved time attached to it. Imagine if one of your most necessary hotkeys (like Build Structure) was fixed on your least comfortable keyboard button. Every time you pressed that button, you would lose a fraction of a second (assuming you worked on hitting your timings perfectly, which is something players strive to do). Now in addition, imagine if multiple hotkeys were fixed into poorly placed spots. These seconds adds up. You're still wrong lol. Everything adds up- even the smallest intervals of time are important in StarCraft. And they count the most with the pro-gamers, like fOrGG. They'll do anything they can to get ahead, even by the tiniest margin. That's why they go from not splitting drones, to splitting half and half, to splitting even more if possible. That's why they come up with perfect sets of hotkeys. That's why they practice hitting their timings perfectly. Everything adds up. Heck, haven't you ever heard of a timing attack before? What do you think that is? lol. Nope you misunderstand me. Whilst these small "gains" add up they have no real effect on the outcome of a game and are dwarfed by factors like build and execution. Starcraft is not so simple that you can freely assume that these fractions of a second will happily build into 10 or so effective seconds. It isn't real. Your efficiency is a glass of water being poured into a lake. Those seconds saved would only have a lasting effect if someone were to play the "perfect" game.
This is exactly part of execution, which makes it very real. This is a set of mechanics that players work on over and over and over again. Start with the most extreme example: try playing without the keyboard at all. Only use the mouse. You're going to be much slower in-game, your execution of your builds and attacks will be much slower, and you're going to play much worse. Your macro and micro will be terrible. Now try using at most five keyboard hotkeys, but no control groups. Slightly better, but still not optimal. Then allow yourself a little more, and the execution of your gameplay becomes smoother. Finally, as you're allowed all of the functions of the keyboard (including re-binding hotkeys, if you wish), your play can become optimized, as you shave off seconds and then eventually fractions of seconds.
A pro-gamer cares about every glass of water in the lake, because that could be the difference between first and second place in the GSL. The 99.99% of other players might not care that much, but those players aren't BW pros switching over to SC2. And, for what it's worth, keep in mind that if you have enough glasses of water, you *can* fill a lake.
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On December 10 2011 03:18 Legion710 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:18 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I think it's all about practiced hand motion and muscle memory. IIRC HuK still puts his Nexus on 0 (I'm not sure if he uses P for Probe or not)
I didn't play much Brood War so I can't really comment past that. His nexus on 0 doesn't actually mean he uses the 0 key to use it. You can change your keys to anything.
Still it does for HuK. He actually uses 0 for his Nexus.
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On a side note,does any one else think ForGG is kinda gimmicky?I didn't see him going for a huge macro game,but he sure does love banshees.
Not meant to hate on the guy just a random discussion.
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I use BW hotkeys for my Terran account. Terran is the only race I played enough to have them memorized fully in BW so it is easier. If I hotkey my tanks separately, I set them to 9 or 0 so the movement is smoother. M for marines is the main reason I use it though, because I like using my thumb a ton in that setup. It feels more efficient than the standard hotkeys. I also feel that when they are spread out like that I don't make as many misclicks with my keyboard. Just remember the hotkeys by calling the units Farauders, Wikings, Ghors, etc.
For ForGG, I imagine it is more muscle memory than anything. He's hit O to siege his tanks for a long time so why switch now.
On December 10 2011 03:40 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
On a side note,does any one else think ForGG is kinda gimmicky?I didn't see him going for a huge macro game,but he sure does love banshees.
Not meant to hate on the guy just a random discussion. I would imagine he was just practicing random stuff and didn't want to give his actual good builds away on stream. He seems to know a lot of odd timings no one else does and his ability to exploit them is kinda terrifying. His macro was solid on his stream yesterday but he seemed to kill his opponents so quickly he didn't even need to macro. Though I was wondering why he was proxy-2raxing so much.
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On December 10 2011 03:40 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
On a side note,does any one else think ForGG is kinda gimmicky?I didn't see him going for a huge macro game,but he sure does love banshees.
Not meant to hate on the guy just a random discussion.
I think banshees are strong enough to be used both as harrass units and as part of a Terran army. Certainly more versatile than the "paper plane" wraith of BW. I think fOrGG just does a good job of using the right units at the right time, and focusing on maximum efficiency (at the moment, at least). He seems to see no reason to make it a 30 minute game if he can win in 15.
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On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible.
Huh? If you normally take a quarter per action but take an extra quarter because of inefficiency your APM goes from 240 to 120, you realize that a quarter isn't insignificant?
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On December 10 2011 02:15 esReveR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:08 Torenhire wrote:
JTo be honest, that's just an opinion. "P" for probe and "O" for overlord make more sense to me than E and V.
My natural hand position on the keyboard is in a place where I can hit O/P pretty easily.
It's not that anyones hotkeys are any better than someone elses, it's all totally personal preference. True, but the rest of the keys are grouped around the same area in SC2, whereas in BW they were everywhere (talking default). Granted if you changed your whole hotkey setup to a comfortable spot like a lot of pros do, then it's fine to stay on the same keys.
Just FYI - changing hotkeys in BW required an external program and was considered cheating. Guaranteed no pros did it.
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SC2 hotkeys are optimized to reduce hand distance.
There is not a significant difference in time to press the keys either way.
i switched to sc2 default because i wasnt very good at bw anyways even tho i was still playing it.
It took a long time to stop pressing 0-p tho haha.
0-p-9-p-8-d-7-d-6-d-5-d-4-d draguuuuuunz
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In the long run it would be better to attempt a switch though. You have the option of binding 2 keys at once for the same bind so you could slowly get used to it.
In BW they made you use the most efficient ways whether you liked it or not
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Honestly, I still feel like I'm faster on BW than on SC2 with Zerg. 4sm5sm6sm feels so much faster than 5smmmmmmmmm. This becomes even more apparent in the lategame when in BW you can ctrl+click larva clusters and make them all morph at the same time instead of having to go 5smmmmmmmmmmzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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On December 10 2011 03:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:08 ShadeR wrote:On December 10 2011 02:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible. Except the point is, by 10 minutes into the game, there have been so many quarter-seconds saved up that now it's a ten seconds difference. Again, it's the sum of all of these button presses that have saved time attached to it. Imagine if one of your most necessary hotkeys (like Build Structure) was fixed on your least comfortable keyboard button. Every time you pressed that button, you would lose a fraction of a second (assuming you worked on hitting your timings perfectly, which is something players strive to do). Now in addition, imagine if multiple hotkeys were fixed into poorly placed spots. These seconds adds up. You're still wrong lol. Everything adds up- even the smallest intervals of time are important in StarCraft. And they count the most with the pro-gamers, like fOrGG. They'll do anything they can to get ahead, even by the tiniest margin. That's why they go from not splitting drones, to splitting half and half, to splitting even more if possible. That's why they come up with perfect sets of hotkeys. That's why they practice hitting their timings perfectly. Everything adds up. Heck, haven't you ever heard of a timing attack before? What do you think that is? lol. Nope you misunderstand me. Whilst these small "gains" add up they have no real effect on the outcome of a game and are dwarfed by factors like build and execution. Starcraft is not so simple that you can freely assume that these fractions of a second will happily build into 10 or so effective seconds. It isn't real. Your efficiency is a glass of water being poured into a lake. Those seconds saved would only have a lasting effect if someone were to play the "perfect" game. This is exactly part of execution, which makes it very real. This is a set of mechanics that players work on over and over and over again. Start with the most extreme example: try playing without the keyboard at all. Only use the mouse. You're going to be much slower in-game, your execution of your builds and attacks will be much slower, and you're going to play much worse. Your macro and micro will be terrible. Now try using at most five keyboard hotkeys, but no control groups. Slightly better, but still not optimal. Then allow yourself a little more, and the execution of your gameplay becomes smoother. Finally, as you're allowed all of the functions of the keyboard (including re-binding hotkeys, if you wish), your play can become optimized, as you shave off seconds and then eventually fractions of seconds. A pro-gamer cares about every glass of water in the lake, because that could be the difference between first and second place in the GSL. The 99.99% of other players might not care that much, but those players aren't BW pros switching over to SC2. And, for what it's worth, keep in mind that if you have enough glasses of water, you *can* fill a lake.
You know what could also be the difference between first and second at the GSL? Not building marines because you pressed M instead of A.
It's hard to unwire 15,000 (or more) hours of hotkey practice.
Sure, it'd be better if you had a convenient hotkey setup, but it will take a significant length of time to unlearn the old one and learn the new one when the old one is so ingrained in your mind.
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Canada1637 Posts
On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P
SC2 is, or at least should be a game of quarter seconds =]
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i dont care how much muscle memory you have i dont think anyone is ever going to want to stick with p for pylon and probe, the absolute worst
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
When I don't play SC2 for a while and come back I always press M for marine but then remember it's actually A. Pretty annoying 
I changed it from M to A.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Short term it may be better to stick to BW hotkeys, but in the long run using a more efficient setup would be better for him. I'm surprised he hasn't switched during his long period of not officially competing. It would have been the perfect time to change his setup. Now he's in GSL he hasn't really got the time to completely shift how he plays.
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I am amazed he doesnt play with health bars on...
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I use broodwar hotkeys as well, it keeps the hand fast and flexible in my opinion and I also think because it's not so "cramped up" it adds more versatility to the keys we're able to press in rapid succession. That's just my opinion though.
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Canada11349 Posts
I don't play SC2 very often so it is easiest to change all the hotkeys to BW. I feel a lot more comfortable in the early game scouting with my probe and building up stuff that way. I do keep a lot of the SC2 hotkeys however if they don't conflict with anything. For instance, I'll normally make a pylon with p. But if I mess up or want to spam a ton of pylons, holding shift +e is a lot easier than shift and p.
Plus, I never make observers without switching it back to o- and keep making thors instead of tanks and nothing instead of overlords. I just feel on more familiar ground even if the units aren't as responsive as I'd like.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On December 10 2011 07:39 Noxie wrote:
I am amazed he doesnt play with health bars on...
I don't either. IT'S SO DISTRACTING!!! Seeing all those stupid health bars over the 100+ units that u end up producing. It just becomes an absolute pain for your eyes the more you keep looking
OT:
He was a BW pro for YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS, I was able to make the transition easily because I wasn't a BW pro playing 8+ hours a day. But for fOrGG, it makes absolute sense that he would want to stick with his old hotkeys. Why fix something when it isn't broken?
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M is fine. I use 6/7 MMMMMMMMMMMM (and forget to make medics).
O is kindof hard because it's close to P and I, but I'm slowly getting used to it.
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United States6151 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible.
No, they add up, because that next keypress comes a quarter of a second faster, etc. Lets say you save a quarter of a second for EVERY overlord you build over the course of a 20 minute macro game.
That's a lot of time relative to a Starcraft game.
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On December 10 2011 04:49 koreasilver wrote:
Honestly, I still feel like I'm faster on BW than on SC2 with Zerg. 4sm5sm6sm feels so much faster than 5smmmmmmmmm. This becomes even more apparent in the lategame when in BW you can ctrl+click larva clusters and make them all morph at the same time instead of having to go 5smmmmmmmmmmzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
This.
I would trade being able to select multiple hatcheries for macro'ing like in bw. Its so much faster (assuming one has the mechanics for it).
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On December 10 2011 04:49 koreasilver wrote:
Honestly, I still feel like I'm faster on BW than on SC2 with Zerg. 4sm5sm6sm feels so much faster than 5smmmmmmmmm. This becomes even more apparent in the lategame when in BW you can ctrl+click larva clusters and make them all morph at the same time instead of having to go 5smmmmmmmmmmzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
how is that faster? you just hold m.
BW macro mechanics doesn't scale late game. you can only select clusters of 12. In SC2 I can select 30 hatcheries and have them all making mutas in like 3 seconds. Try doing that in bw.
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On December 10 2011 03:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:08 ShadeR wrote:On December 10 2011 02:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 02:02 ShadeR wrote:On December 10 2011 01:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 10 2011 01:41 ShadeR wrote:
Efficiency? You mean that quarter of a second you save ? =P Do you realize how many quarter-seconds get saved up over the course of a twenty minute game? How many times do you hit a button on the keyboard during a typical game of StarCraft? What about a pro-gamer? How many tens of thousands? Yeah, it adds up. StarCraft is a game of seconds. Only if your eApm = your Apm. Those seconds "gained" because you pressed z at 10:34 minutes as opposed to 10:34 and a quarter are negligible. Except the point is, by 10 minutes into the game, there have been so many quarter-seconds saved up that now it's a ten seconds difference. Again, it's the sum of all of these button presses that have saved time attached to it. Imagine if one of your most necessary hotkeys (like Build Structure) was fixed on your least comfortable keyboard button. Every time you pressed that button, you would lose a fraction of a second (assuming you worked on hitting your timings perfectly, which is something players strive to do). Now in addition, imagine if multiple hotkeys were fixed into poorly placed spots. These seconds adds up. You're still wrong lol. Everything adds up- even the smallest intervals of time are important in StarCraft. And they count the most with the pro-gamers, like fOrGG. They'll do anything they can to get ahead, even by the tiniest margin. That's why they go from not splitting drones, to splitting half and half, to splitting even more if possible. That's why they come up with perfect sets of hotkeys. That's why they practice hitting their timings perfectly. Everything adds up. Heck, haven't you ever heard of a timing attack before? What do you think that is? lol. Nope you misunderstand me. Whilst these small "gains" add up they have no real effect on the outcome of a game and are dwarfed by factors like build and execution. Starcraft is not so simple that you can freely assume that these fractions of a second will happily build into 10 or so effective seconds. It isn't real. Your efficiency is a glass of water being poured into a lake. Those seconds saved would only have a lasting effect if someone were to play the "perfect" game. This is exactly part of execution, which makes it very real. This is a set of mechanics that players work on over and over and over again. Start with the most extreme example: try playing without the keyboard at all. Only use the mouse. You're going to be much slower in-game, your execution of your builds and attacks will be much slower, and you're going to play much worse. Your macro and micro will be terrible. Now try using at most five keyboard hotkeys, but no control groups. Slightly better, but still not optimal. Then allow yourself a little more, and the execution of your gameplay becomes smoother. Finally, as you're allowed all of the functions of the keyboard (including re-binding hotkeys, if you wish), your play can become optimized, as you shave off seconds and then eventually fractions of seconds. A pro-gamer cares about every glass of water in the lake, because that could be the difference between first and second place in the GSL. The 99.99% of other players might not care that much, but those players aren't BW pros switching over to SC2. And, for what it's worth, keep in mind that if you have enough glasses of water, you *can* fill a lake.
I should have been more clear with what i meant by execution. (micro in battles, lurker killing an extra marine pretty much mitigates all your gain). It was 5 am and i was high.
I'm just trying to say that in a real game of starcraft. The point that minuscule gains will eventually snowball to a point that they have a significant effect of the outcome is a false one. Simply because the other gameplay factors are so large. To continue with the lake analogy, which will fill the lake quicker (and the speed at which the lake is filled is important because the length of a game of sc is finite) steady glasses of water or fire truck?
Isn't ForGG using bw hotkeys an example against your bolded point? He has obviously decided the gain is not worth his attention and has decided that his limited 400 apm is better spent.
TLDR: Starcraft is not like cell phone hotel manager games where efficiency is the main force in playing the "best" game.
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On December 10 2011 09:51 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:49 koreasilver wrote:
Honestly, I still feel like I'm faster on BW than on SC2 with Zerg. 4sm5sm6sm feels so much faster than 5smmmmmmmmm. This becomes even more apparent in the lategame when in BW you can ctrl+click larva clusters and make them all morph at the same time instead of having to go 5smmmmmmmmmmzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz how is that faster? you just hold m. BW macro mechanics doesn't scale late game. you can only select clusters of 12. In SC2 I can select 30 hatcheries and have them all making mutas in like 3 seconds. Try doing that in bw.
Wat. Morphing itself is so much faster in SC1 than SC2. The main thing that has become much more easier to do in SC2 is that rallying has become so much easier in the lategame.
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I just realized he hotkeys only 1 orbital and his other one isn't hotkeyed or it's on 9 and 0. Is there a reason for this? That's just not something I can agree to.
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On December 10 2011 20:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I just realized he hotkeys only 1 orbital and his other one isn't hotkeyed or it's on 9 and 0. Is there a reason for this? That's just not something I can agree to.
My guess would be that since he is so used to hit 8 9 0 for comsat in BW he just hotkeys CC there for quick scans. And it does not hurt his scv production anyway so w/e.
I use BW hotkeys aswell. I just can't stand sc2 standard or grid. It feels so fucking wierd having everything so clumped up on the top left side of the keyboard. It's probably better tho if you have like all your hatcheries on one hotkey (like on 3, 4 or 5) but I still hotkey single hatcheries so my hand is already all over the keyboard and not locked into one place. And hitting 5soo feels better imo! ^_^
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Well he already has the orbital bound on a more convenient hotkey so it wouldn't be all too difficult to start producing 2 scvs rather than just 1. It's not like he uses BW style hotkeys for his other production facilities.
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But the first CC on 3 get's hotkeyed over past the early game/when he needs it. It's just years of BW repetition stuck in his head. 
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I can understand that BW mechanics are hard to forget, but he's played a good number of games already. Also, I've never heard of any former BW player doing this kind of stuff. July, Nada, Boxer, MVP, etc. all have pretty conventional hotkey setups and they were around for a looong time, albeit not at the same level.
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Yeah he has played a good number of games already... with the same setup as in BW.
Anyway, to each their own.
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I couldn't find any other thread to post this question, and this thread is pretty recent, so here goes my question:
Is there a max number of hotkeys I should be dedicating to my units? Currently My units are separated into three mutually exclusive hotkeys, but would it be inefficient to use more than three? I didn't play a lot of Brood War, so I'm really curious to know what BW players think, especially since it only allowed twelve units per group.
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On December 11 2011 09:53 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I can understand that BW mechanics are hard to forget, but he's played a good number of games already. Also, I've never heard of any former BW player doing this kind of stuff. July, Nada, Boxer, MVP, etc. all have pretty conventional hotkey setups and they were around for a looong time, albeit not at the same level.
July hotkeys each hatchery individually+890 all hatches, MVP hotkeys his production 3 to 5 and CC's on 890 and Boxer has his production on 5 and CC's on 0 and even Nada does the same as MVP except he doesn't put his CC's on 89 as well.
What do you mean not the same level? All those players except MVP were better then ForGG.
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It's just stupid, he should've just learned himself a newer and more efficient hotkey set-up right when he started playing Starcraft 2. Now it's probably too late to relearn one :/
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On March 04 2012 08:16 Recognizable wrote:
It's just stupid, he should've just learned himself a newer and more efficient hotkey set-up right when he started playing Starcraft 2. Now it's probably too late to relearn one :/
u reaaly just dont know how increedibly hard tha is especially since it is engrained after playinig broodwar for so long the time and effort taken to actually change would have been inefficent.
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are you guys fucking kidding me?
hotkeys must be the least of the problems of the professional players... they are fast enough to not care about hotkeys at all.
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ForGG can play at 200-300 APM while using his hotkeys while playing a mechanically solid game. Why change hotkeys if you can do everything efficiently exactly by continuing use the same hotkeys he learned on the road to becoming a professional. Why change when you are comfortable and can do extremely well already?
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I feel like a man when I can press the O button and my tanks siege.
Then I feel like a panzy when my tanks kill everything from infinity miles away.
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EPT
