On November 01 2011 04:58 Hot_Bid wrote: The emotion and connection the fans have with BW is precisely what makes the "magic" and makes it special. It's a lot like college athletics in that way, the players aren't paid much and a lot of what they do is because of passion, it's a lot of "care" for not a lot of return.
I didn't believe it was possible to disagree with a post this much, but then I read your blog. I am a huge football fan myself but your blog honestly feels like someone who has never watched the game saying the exact same thing about the NFL, it's close minded and irresponsible.
The last sentence is unclear to me. Watched which game wut?
It's like someone watching one game of NFL and being like "I don't see the magic."
A lot of people have said that to me (video gamers or soccer fans) and it's frustrating. It's because football is simultaneously a very emotional and brutal sport and an extremely deep and cerebral one as well, there's a lot of preparation for a very small amount of execution (similar to SC actually in that way), its basically chess in real time with people.
Take how you feel about the NFL and imagine someone wrote the same blog but with american football instead of BW, thats how I feel about what you wrote.
It's next to impossible to appreciate a game like BW without any understanding of it. Half the "magic" in watching progamers play is being good enough to understand that it's crazy.
Some games (as in individual matches) are accessible to first time viewers, whereas others will seem underwhelming because the viewer does not comprehend what is happening.
I think that with a game as deep and as well-developed as SC, if you are bad -- and if you've only played a few games of BW, you are BEYOND bad (and I mean this to be in no way insulting, just the truth) -- you will not appreciate it beyond the most incredibly superficial of levels.
Anyways I just read the Hawaii pig guy's post and what I'm saying is very redundant.
@redjustice I am passionate about broodwar but looking at how ill equip and jobless right now because I am currently studying , I can't do a thing about streaming and creating fun events although Supernovamaniac and Sayle , Nuke the stars are doing a great job creating lots of high level content for foreign broodwar . I am trying my best to contribute by uploading fpvods , but than I don't think you will be so interested in the fpvods by the way and it's understandable . Not many people will watch unless those guys are really keen on improving their games .
Bw magic to me is multi tasking on the fly , controlling the flow of the game , trickery , playing mind games all the strategy that is involve in the game can be easily missed if you don't watch some of the games carefully . It's just that every time I lose I am coming back for more and trying to win again . I see it as a challenge and want to improve . Maybe you should try laddering in iccup to C+ as a goal and than probably you can appreciate the toughness and magic we are seeing on screen.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: EDITEDIT: this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
That is fine; however, some opinions are held higher than others. You played a few LAN games, watched some VODs and took in a finals.
To be honest, that is very little. There is oodles of content out there, several things going on at the same time and various eras to acquaint for, which makes the process of understanding Brood War very complicated.
Like I said, RTS games can be a bit trickier to get into because there are so many moving pieces. Not to say first-person shooters like Quake don't have a lot of moving pieces either.
To a simpleton Quake looks something like this:
- 1:1 - timer - get more kills than your opponent before the timer expires.
Whereas, a simpleton sees Brood War as:
- 1:1 - Destroy Enemies buildings and win.
Seems simple and straight forward, no? Not so much.
It's really hard coming into this scene as a latecomer because there is so much to digest. You really have to understand the intricacies of the game. There are so many players who are D or D+ on ICCUP yet they understand the game to some capacity. It's hard to find other games like this with such depth and gamers aren't used to working with U.I.'s like this. People say it's outdated. Fine, but you have to wrap your head around it because it is part of the rulebook of what you can and cannot do. As a player you have to work with these limitations to maximize your return. Opportunity cost is critical and until you really get rolling with the time spent returning to base and controlling your army it's hard to get a real grip on it. It's harder for the new generation gamer to get into because they're used to friendlier U.I.'s. It really isn't an advancement in retrospect. I believe players should be confined to certain things.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
It has a strong following because
- the game is incredibly deep (there's a reason why we still celebrate it after ten years) - the community around it (note: the Korean Scene didn't need TL.net, GG.net, etc. at all... websites like this just helped the foreigner scene stick together) - it made for a great spectator sport (having great announcers helps too)
You ask why BW is struggling outside of Korea? Oh, come on now. I've heard too many people say this now and it's simple logic really.
1) The gaming industry churns out new games at a ridiculous rate and it's their job to push the new products. 2) You know how it works, gamers like flashier graphics (just look at all the comments about how outdated BW looks) and guess what SC2 by design is more simple and more appealing to gamers of today. They don't want to have to fight the U.I. They choose to look at the negatives rather than the positives and like I said before, it is really hard to follow and understand a game when you are already fighting an uphill battle against the U.I. You have to look at the glass as half full rather than half empty. Then you can start looking at all the special strategies and tactics. 3) Blizzard releases SC2. WCIII and SC:BW RTS players unite. 4) BW isn't financially feasible for these players and it never was. Look at the amount of tournaments foreigners had to compete in. SC2 is a new opportunity where a lot of cash is involved. They didn't really have a choice. Here comes the wealth of knowledge... everyone from Assem, Rekrul, Draco, ret, IdrA, NonY, etc. tried to break into the scene. Assem played some televised games in PL but as for the rest? No dice. Draco and NonY had a lot of potential. I guess you could say the same for IdrA as he was finally starting to win some foreigner events (pretty dominantly I might add), but still that wasn't enough for him to get a spot on the CJ A-Team and they had to take him from estro to boot.
To all the new people. I don't think you really understand how hard it actually was to make a Pro League Roster.
5) Players are too focused on SC2. There is no time to appreciate the beauty of BW. You put a little effort into it. If I were in your shoes I would be overwhelmed with it too.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
There are a number of good sources within this community. A lot of great writers and knowledgeable people. Unfortunately as the new kid on the block, you don't know where to turn.
Back to playing the game, okay so you witnessed the U.I. and A.I. to see how tricky it can be to actually play, so you can sort of respect what the players are doing within the rulebook. That's a start. From my perspective, that is only one layer. Now we got to put all the other little pieces together to complete the puzzle that is BW. We have to consider everything from the storytelling of the announcers to the dynamics of the actual play.
Converting? I wouldn't say that. Look, RTS games are a niche market compared to other games like FPS. Both are very complex at the pro levels, but to a beginner FPS is easier to take in. With RTS games the layers are a bit more visible and complex; not subtle. It's more of a challenge to process unless you spent a ridiculous amount of time with the given game.
With that said, I'm not out to convert anyone. If someone wants to learn how to play better (I used to coach and manage a lot back in the day) I will give them a shortlist of things to work on to improve. Nothing more. You either like it, or you don't.
I'm not here to build the fan-base. I will educate if asked though.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
Of course they've done nothing except make people bill others as either elitist pricks or this guy has no clue what he's talking about because they really haven't followed/played the game to understand it.
The negativity goes far beyond the bw versus sc2 conversation; it's practically everywhere on these forums. You really have to take a step back. I cannot believe how incredibly defensive gamers are about their pass-times. I find it over-excessive. Just look at the Milkis debacle. People are being ridiculous.
Lots of people don't want to see BW go. There has been a lot of bad news recently dating back to February, so yeah what can I say? Players injured, MBC shutting down, more teams about to disband, etc. You name it! Sort of hard to find positives out of the whole experience and every RTS gamer should be banding together regardless instead of bitching and moaning.
Those guys are angry because those people are talking out of their asses. They truly have no clue what they are talking about most of the time and they think it's their right to talk about it.
TL organizing BW events? There are actually plenty of guys hosting tournaments nowadays. I guess you haven't noticed the featured BW streams but they are there. Sponsorship is hard to come by and most of the time it comes out of a few community member's pockets. We have a number of guys hosting/casting tournaments like Sayle and Gamer. TL Attack covers SC2 BW maps all the time.
It goes back to what I said before, sponsors don't cater to the old games so we have private sponsors who fund the events themselves and there have been quite a number recently. TSL has moved on to SC2 as the vast majority of top players have because of the money. Tic Tac Toe.
It would be nice if Sean Plott (Day[9]) would do more stuff related to BW (as his analysis was much better at BW). Like TL he's moved on to greener pastures and the game truly is only viable in the Korean market. He doesn't want to lose sponsorship money. I'm sure one off's are possible, but don't expect it. Plus KeSPA is leaning into introducing SC2 into their library as well, so yeah.
I hear a lot about BW, and how much better it is than SC2. Many of the people I talk to on TL love BW. Lots of the guys I know irl who are Starcraft fans love BW. These people are so passionate and excited about their game, and angry when people dismiss it without watching it or playing it themselves. Anyone who gives it a real chance-- who watches some games, sits down and tries to play a bit, who learns about the skill involved, and the community--will realize just how special BW is.
Fair enough.
I started watching some BW vods on Youtube. I watched the OSL live with some friends a few weeks back. I got myself a copy of BW, and played parts of the campaign, and even a few games over LAN with friends.
My conclusion is this:
BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle. On it's own, it is just an incredibly well-made RTS that got lucky in some ways, and stuck around long enough to develop beyond what we have seen in other games. It's challenging, it's fun, it's exciting to watch and play (and frustrating).
The magic of BW (or any game for that matter) is in the experience of growing with a game for so long. The game means so much to people because of the time and emotion they have invested in it-- as spectators, players, or both. The first time you see it, it's exciting, and overwhelming. There is so much going on, and so many things to learn. You watch or play more. You start to understand the basics. Then you discover just how bad you are in comparison to other people. It's discouraging, but it pushes you to try harder and appreciate the skill of others more. You develop favorite players, favorite teams. You see the game change over time, you see the community change over time. You form friendship with other people who share you love of the game. You have wonderful memories of the nights you stayed up late to watch the finals, even though you had work or school the next morning. You have anger and disappointment for the cheating scandal, and sadness for seeing your favorite player struggling to overcome injuries. After years of something being this part of your life-- how could it not have a certain magic to it that no other game gives you?
Like I said, you either get it or you don't. Doesn't mean it cannot grow on you because it certainly did for a lot of us based on the depth, new discoveries and challenge. The U.I. definitely made us better gamers.
The magic lies in the U.I., units, maps, balance of the game and the revolutionary impact it had on Korea and gamers alike. By design it was a total fluke and after a number of patches... it became a gold mine. Balanced unlike any other RTS game and the communities embraced it.
It stuck around for so long because the other games flat out sucked and I dare you find a game that is more challenging and rewarding (intrinsically, no money for foreigners). You won't find one. This is one of the most demanding games you will ever play and until you actually try to compete and see just how good you can actually be... you will never truly know. Besides that, the only real scale we have now are the pro Koreans. The foreign scene is still around, but hell it's really not as big with all the cross-over. The Golden Era is over.
I don't put any stock in the idea that BW is more special because of it's audience and popularity. To me it seems like the Super Bowl. Millions of people watch it who don't tune in to the regular season games, who don't know the names of the players, or how they have been improving or falling behind the past few seasons. It's fun to watch and everyone throws a nice party, but it doesn't mean that football has something magic about it that so many people who don't play would tune in to watch these games.
These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over. They don't have that joy every time they see the young quarterback they have been rooting for to prove himself make another perfect pass. They don't scream until they lose their voice when their team finally makes. They don't cry from being so damn happy, when that Super Bowl they have been hoping for their whole lives is finally won. (Fuck yeah I love Green Bay that much. <3)
When I was a little girl, we would drive to other people's houses to watch the game, because we didn't have a TV. My dad would read every bit of news about them, and repeat it at supper time. We would drive up to Green Bay when we visited my grandparents every summer, and pass the stadium. We would make our own signs, and wave them wildly from our living room couch, knowing if we cheered hard enough our team would win. We would take pride knowing that Green Bay is a people's team, and our team. When we moved to Dallas, we wore our Green Bay shirts loud and proud. The magic comes from how my team has been part of my life.
It's not something inherent about the game. The game may be amazingly well designed, and revolutionize an entire industry. It may be fun to watch, even if you don't play it. It may take incredible feats of skill and dedication to master. It's just a (great) game. The magic happens in how players and spectators choose to make it part of their lives and become emotionally involved with it.
The Super Bowl? You are going off on one BW Final you caught and the views it received. One. You can compare that one final to a Super Bowl all you want, but that's just wrong to look at it in that way when you look at all of them.
On another note the GSL has limited seating just like the OGN and MBC studios for regular season matches, so the comparison gets lost. Yes, you will see empty seats at both from time to time. The hours aren't necessarily great either because in many cases the kids have to skip school in order to catch those matches.
It's just a bad comparison and the TV stations do fine. It's just the foreigners who will bring up the views on re-streams for PL Finals and other Finals because they still want to know what happens. Staying up until 2-6am in the morning is incredibly hard to do. I used to come home from the bar and catch a few games before bed, but to do that everyday? :/
There are many variables involved.
So, where is the so-called ''magic'' and why did BW last this long?
I'll repeat a paragraph I said earlier:
It stuck around for so long because the other games flat out sucked and I dare you find a game that is more challenging and intrinsically rewarding. There was never a lot of money in the foreigner scene and money wasn't really an issue for most players. Plus, big tournaments like WCG were just starting to take shape.
It's incredibly hard to find a game as balanced and competitive as BW. It was way ahead of it's time. Definitely one of the most demanding games I ever played and until you actually try to compete and see just how good you can actually be... you will never truly know. Besides that, the only real scale we have now are the pro Koreans. The foreign scene is still around, but hell it's really not as big with all the cross-over. The Golden Era is over.
I think my football reference was completely appropriate, given where it spawned from (which HawaiianPig addressed):
I keep seeming to see this kind of statement: "There's no way to not love BW; just watch X game and you will see."
Everyone in this blog has generally argued that it is impossible, because you have to appreciate the depth, etc. Fair enough. There are also plenty of people who're apparently convinced that one OSL Final or epic VOD will change your life forever. 'It's like crack, and if you do x, y, z, you will be hooked forever! :D'
Which is like watching the Super Bowl-- plenty of people do and it never converts them into loving football or anything. It comes from much more than that.
"everyone ins this blog"? seriously? Well you for sure havent read my posts then, and you are probably misinterpreting those of many, if not all. Saying BW is amazing and better than other games because of the depth etc. is not the same as saying that its impossible not to love it. I dont even recall one person saying that, but yes, if one does say that then thats a dumb statement, not everyone in the world is gonna love BW, it takes a certain amount of commitment, openmindedness, intelligence, and taste to get to know it and fall in love with it. (And saying "you have to watch game xyz, then youre gonna love it" is not the same thing either) Not everyones gonna love this game. Huge realization, you didnt have to write a huge blog post about it. You sound like your only measure of how good a game is is how many people are gonna like it. It's not, that doesnt mean that BW isn't better than other games.
On November 02 2011 21:17 RedJustice wrote: I think my football reference was completely appropriate, given where it spawned from (which HawaiianPig addressed):
I keep seeming to see this kind of statement: "There's no way to not love BW; just watch X game and you will see."
Everyone in this blog has generally argued that it is impossible, because you have to appreciate the depth, etc. Fair enough. There are also plenty of people who're apparently convinced that one OSL Final or epic VOD will change your life forever. 'It's like crack, and if you do x, y, z, you will be hooked forever! :D'
Which is like watching the Super Bowl-- plenty of people do and it never converts them into loving football or anything. It comes from much more than that.
That is a lot of hodgepodge; it is very hard to appreciate the depth of a game without understanding the context of it. Many people won't get it and I'm fine with that. That's why RTS games are a niche market. Others can argue that Starcraft is the best game to spectate all they want. That doesn't mean it will become more mainstream.
You are putting words in people's mouths. I have never said anything like that in all my years of practice. I don't see that nonsense happening here either from what I read. In some cases you will find some members posting VODs of their favorite moments/games elsewhere for whatever reason. Perhaps they don't know how to express their feelings or know how to acknowledge everything that is going on so they post a tribute video instead without explaining the context and syntheses. Maybe they're just lazy. I don't know; I don't speak for them. I don't know why they love BW the way they do. Everyone's story is going to be different. It can incorporate everything from the relationships and bonds we make to the players we marvel. Rise or fall. So this x, y, z thing you speak of is false.
Starcraft has one of the most enthralling histories of all games. It's shelf-life withstands the testament of time in the gaming world.
HP can speak on his own behalf, but remember this, it's only his opinion and he doesn't speak for anyone else but himself. I would never compare that one final to the Super Bowl with all things incorporated.
The numbers tuning in on the re-stream for foreigners was relatively the same as before. I can say the same for regular season matches as well when it comes to us foreigners tuning in. I will leave it at that.
Someone photoshop My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic into My Brood War: The Game is Magic like right NAO and put Reavers, Lurkers and Vultures in the background!
I have read through most of this, and I still seem to disagree with your points. It's just about causality. You seem to think our dedication to broodwar causes us to think it's magical; I argue the opposite. It's magical or else we wouldn't even BE that dedicated to broodwar. There has to be something intrinsic in it that attracts us more so than Halo, CoD, DotA, or WC3. I think the fact that it's survived this long and still has a scene in korea proves that DOES have something other games don't, something to make it sparkle. You might not see it, but that could be for a plethora of reasons, and no matter what, the magic still exists.
Edit: You pointed out that it's struggling. I point out that it's struggling AFTER 13 years at the undisputed top of "e-sports." Can any other game claim that? Can any other game even claim such longevity along with such success? No. BW can. It's more magical, in that regard, than any other game out there right now.
easy to learn, hard to master drew me in from day 1 and been addicted ever since. Still remember my first game dieing to 6 zergling rush in 5 minutes while my one zealot was still building
I remember my first SC online experience. It was a ZvP in SC(the one w/o lurkers/sairs/DT) on some blizz map with wide open bases, no chokes or highground, kinda like Challenger(if you never played challenger in ur early days then ur no true BW player lol ) . This was somewhere in 1999 or 2000 and I didnt know shit, I was like keyb&mouse rank. I massed hydra from two hatches on one base and won. No words to describe the nostalgic feeling i get when i think of this.
I started following bw some days ago. Literally. Ofc I'm godawful trying to fight the UI and not have more than 10 idle workers each time,lol.
But I can already see what these people are admiring and over the years came to fall in love with. It's the endless indricasies of the game, the respect you have for the pro players, the endless strife to get better, but most of all it's the joy of accomplishment that you get from something silly, like dodging the orange cloud(whats the name again?), sneaking some vultures in the enemys main or trying to fend off a well executed push.
Just some hours ago I managed to grab my first ever win. It was a TvZ against a player in the same level as me.
Around 15 minutes in, I found myself juggling between producing scvs and sending them to my 3rd, trying to irradiate those pesky lurkers that were containing me, handling my vulture gang around the map and trying to keep up with macro. Don't remember exactly when, but when I realised what I was doing atm I felt excited and happy, weird I know. I looked at the minerals...10k and 3k gas. But I didn't feel annoyed or mad or anything like that at all. Instead I loled with my noobiness, gave an imaginary high five to my opponent and proceeded to enjoy the crap out of the game. No less than 20 minutes later my worthy rival typed gg. I felt a warm feeling inside as I understood that I would play bw for much, much longer.
I could discribe you what my feelings are when playing around the gold league in sc2, but that would upset me.
On November 03 2011 16:16 SarR wrote: I remember my first SC online experience. It was a ZvP in SC(the one w/o lurkers/sairs/DT) on some blizz map with wide open bases, no chokes or highground, kinda like Challenger(if you never played challenger in ur early days then ur no true BW player lol ) . This was somewhere in 1999 or 2000 and I didnt know shit, I was like keyb&mouse rank. I massed hydra from two hatches on one base and won. No words to describe the nostalgic feeling i get when i think of this.
OMG I went and checked Challenger... The nostalgia... <3 thanks for reminding me of that =) I think I'm gonna 1v1 the comp on it a few times now^^
On November 03 2011 17:13 Steveling wrote: I started following bw some days ago. Literally. Ofc I'm godawful trying to fight the UI and not have more than 10 idle workers each time,lol.
But I can already see what these people are admiring and over the years came to fall in love with. It's the endless indricasies of the game, the respect you have for the pro players, the endless strife to get better, but most of all it's the joy of accomplishment that you get from something silly, like dodging the orange cloud(whats the name again?), sneaking some vultures in the enemys main or trying to fend off a well executed push.
Just some hours ago I managed to grab my first ever win. It was a TvZ against a player in the same level as me.
Around 15 minutes in, I found myself juggling between producing scvs and sending them to my 3rd, trying to irradiate those pesky lurkers that were containing me, handling my vulture gang around the map and trying to keep up with macro. Don't remember exactly when, but when I realised what I was doing atm I felt excited and happy, weird I know. I looked at the minerals...10k and 3k gas. But I didn't feel annoyed or mad or anything like that at all. Instead I loled with my noobiness, gave an imaginary high five to my opponent and proceeded to enjoy the crap out of the game. No less than 20 minutes later my worthy rival typed gg. I felt a warm feeling inside as I understood that I would play bw for much, much longer.
I could discribe you what my feelings are when playing around the gold league in sc2, but that would upset me.
Bw is the shit.
It's cool to see that BW can still have that power after all these years =) Especially ZvT, such a beautiful match-up. That orange cloud is dark swarm, and I can tell you that on the other side you feel like Jaedong when you pull one off and still have less than 1.5k gas (but we zerg have ultras so it's ok :p).
RedJustice, if for no other reason, I have to give you credit for eliciting so many great responses. With so many great posts in this thread already I almost wasn't going to bother, but there are four flaws in your reasoning I would like to stress:
1 - The concept of "magic" or "specialness" your argument hinges on is very poorly defined.
This is the closest you get to clarifying the concept:
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle.
Of course, part of the reason for using the term magic is that it works as a kind of catchall for a lot of very hard to describe concepts. When you make such a bold and contentious claim though, you're going to have to make your meaning a little more clear. What would be an example of a game that does have that "magic?" If you can't provide one, or if you argue that magic by definition arises from factors external to the game, then your definition is not very useful. Clearly some games are more "special" or "magical" than others in at least some sense. You need to articulate this much more explicitly if you want your argument to be taken seriously.
You have already acknowledged that Brood War is "incredibly well-made" and "fun." It is also not really arguable that it works extremely well as a spectator sport and is astonishingly deep. Despite how often the graphics are knocked for being so old, I would personally also argue that the game is very well-designed aesthetically, particularly the unit models and sound effects. With no stalker/roach/marauder trio of units, the races are also more diverse than in any other RTS I've ever encountered, including SC2. I would think those factors alone qualify BW as having something special. 2 - There are many counterexamples to your assertion that the magic in BW is simply a product of people's significant investments of time and emotion in this thread alone.
There are plenty of people in this thread who have shared how they discovered the magic of Brood War relatively recently despite having no real history with the game. Steveling's very nice post about 2 above mine is a perfect example.
On the other hand there are people like myself who have made significant investments following other games without seeing similar magic in them. I used to spend tons of time reading about Super Smash Bros Brawl and to a lesser extent Melee. I watched tons of games, read tons of strategy threads, and to this day I've played a lot more SSBB and SSBM than I have BW. There's something special about each of those games, but not in the same way and certainly not to the same extent as in BW. You might argue then that it's just personal preference but a) I fucking love Smash so you'd think I'd be one of the most likely to see similar magic in those games and b) that doesn't mean there isn't magic in the game, just that you're more or less likely to see it depending on your own affinity.
3 - Your own anecdotal evidence is not very compelling.
Part of this is just the fact that you reach such a strong conclusion about BW based on one piece of anecdotal evidence: your own experiences with the game. Another part of it is that based on your own descriptions, you don't seem to have done a very good job at trying out BW at all. Torte De Lini provided this wonderful analogy:
On October 31 2011 16:27 Torte de Lini wrote:You can't know about it by simply looking into that great lake, dipping your feet in and assume everything based on how cold the water is. Dive in, swim to the bottom and resurface. Come back to Brood War and do it again.
You seem to have approached BW with something of an unfair expectation. It's almost as though you read so many posts saying how great it was that you said, "oh yeah? we'll see about that" and then started on BW waiting with hands on hips for the game to impress you (obviously I'm exaggerating a little). Most people who discover BW do so not because they are expecting to be impressed but because they are genuinely interested in the game and want to learn more. In most cases they don't have the moment of enlightenment you seem to have been anticipating. It's a gradual process. The more they learn, the more amazing they find it and the more they want to learn, and pretty soon they're fanatics. They've found the magic.
I also want to address this:
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
No offense, but for me this really cemented the impression that you put no real effort into getting to know Brood War. The passionate BW people on TL are doing all of those things. Just off the top of my head there's the sGs clan for beginning players, ImbaTosS's thread, Sayle's stream, Hacklebeast's show, or any of the several threads in BW general and strategy by SC2 players curious about BW (like this one). That's nowhere near a complete list, and I don't know how you could have not found at least some of those if you really went looking.
Really, it all boils down to the fact that you have to put in the effort yourself. You're right that doing x, y, and z won't necessarily make you a life long fan, but if you find BW fascinating and fun to follow and learn about, doing x, y, and z is very likely to deepen your understanding and enhance your experience of the game.
Your football example is also weak. You might only support the Packers because your parents raised you to, but a ton of people follow football because they find the game itself exciting, not because of an arbitrary team affiliation. I don't follow it myself really, but I know enough to realize there is a lot of depth and "magic" in American football.
Imagine if someone wrote that there was nothing special about chess or the music of Beethoven, and that all the magic in them were simply a result of the experiences so many people had with them. You would probably conclude that that person didn't understand the first thing about chess or Western art music. That is pretty much what's going on here.
4 - Pointing out that people maybe taking the wrong approach in helping others understand BW does not support your argument that there is no magic inherent to the game.
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
Of course you are right that merely being exposed to BW will not make you love it forever, and BW fans aren't helping their cause by telling people that's all you need to do. Obviously though that doesn't mean there isn't magic in the game, so even if you wrote this partly in response to that sentiment, it doesn't support your overall conclusion.
Sorry if I come off as a little blunt. There are already plenty of great and more diplomatically worded posts, I just wanted to point out more clearly some of the holes in your argument.
Disclaimer: I have not played BW on ICCUP or anywhere else competitively, my experience with it is mainly playing vs friends. I never got faster then 130 apm or thereabout, which was still better then my friends. I do however love the game.
A spoilered text about how I experience my magic in BW
The magic in BW for me is when I (I play Terran) really get into zone. Everything flows just as fast as I want it, My macro feels spot on, a sort of mechanical feeling while at the same time being very fluent. I am constantly moving my troops, harassing, scouting and regrouping. Every time I do something it is with grace, smoothness and swiftness. I have trained for this and read up on build orders and now it is paying off.
I've had the same feeling in CS for instance but I have not had as many things to improve in that game, it has just been a good day or a bad one. In BW I had lots of things I needed to improve before I felt this feeling.
When whatching televised matches thie magic have come when players have not only outplayed their opposition but also the commentators and the audience. The surprised shouts from everyone when a completely unthought of move is executed is music to my ears. That, coupled with the excitement when someone you cheer for is playing and ends up crushing his opponent is a feeling I love.
I think that this experience of magic is in many ways dependant on the individual who is playing. Some like one game and call it full of "magic" while others don't. As I see it, almost every game will have at least someone who just love it, it's just that the better the game the more followers it will have. I know a lot of people just LOVE Dragon Age but I can't even like it. To me it's completely dead, but I know that there are hundreds of thousands of people who can feel the magic in it.
Conclusion: The OP didn't find the magic that me and many others feel in this game. This shouldn't be surprising, there are many games good out there that have people calling their game the best of all time but no one loves them all. You don't need to play that much to know if you love a game, I was caught after just seeing a friend play a game vs the computer, so I don't agree with the OP that we think of it as magical due to the fact that we have played thousands of games.
What puzzles me is why the OP would think it was a good time to tell everyone on a fan site that the game didn't have that feel to her. Eiher you love it or you love something else but at TL everyone is more or less a die hard fan and our response would at best be "Uh okay, you don't love the game as We do, We love it"
I read the first 6 pages and I skimmed over the rest. The work HP put into this thread and his systematic response a couple pages back amazed me. I figured by now you, as well as everyone, would be tired of reading the same post over and over, so I'm going to let the magic speak for itself.
That reaction is not one of nostalgia; it's one of admiration for the strategic brilliance of the player who managed to pull that off, as well as the "magic" of the game expressing itself by allowing such occurrences. The fact that things like that can happen that captivate the educated viewer in awe, is a testament of BW's so called "magic".
Furthermore, I completely agree with every post Rekrul made in this thread.
Just because you don't see the magic, doesn't mean there's no magic. And lack of a massive following in the overseas community does not equate to lack of magic in the game itself. Basically your whole argument is a logical fallacy. I can understand it if you think BW doesn't appeal to you personally but there's no basis to argue that the game itself has no magic.
EPT
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