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On October 29 2011 16:57 PHC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote:
What would KESPA have against foreign fans/players? That part isn't explained anywhere. The fact that it shunned English casting in BW doesn't prove anything. SC2 popularity outside of Korea far exceeds that of BW, so to turn away the foreign market would be giving up potential profit. Some of you guys have weird conceptions of how business works. Why would companies such as SK-Telecom and Hwaseung, Hite, Lecaf, etc. have any interest in a foreign market when their products are only consumed in Korea? Why would a Korean bank, a Korean cell-phone company, a Korean beer company, etc... want to set up English casting for their Starcraft league, when their consumers and target audience are 99% Korean? There is no way a Korean corporation is stupid enough to invest money in English casting if their products are only consumed by Koreans. If you want to see English casting, it would have to be approved by KeSPA and be funded by a different source (such as Blizzard). Think about it. If you are a corporation that makes products that can only be consumed in a single country, why would you waste funding and advertising money to cater to anyone outside of said country? Why should they treat foreign progamers any differently from Korean progamers (in terms of Code-A spots, separate training house, etc)? Unless you have global corporations that are willing to invest millions of dollars to sponsor professional Starcraft teams in Korea, the system will stay in place. I don't know, maybe McDonald's or Coca-Cola or Pepsi can be convinced to fund the teams to improve their reputations in a niche market? One can only hope.
Are you under the impression that Korea-exclusive companies are somehow great or ideal sponsors? It's really the best you can do, to some extent, in the Korea-only BW environment.
On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea.
In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea.
To ignore this reality bespeaks a total lack of understanding of the world.
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Kespa = the sponsors.
The Sponsors only care about Korea cause they only sell their stuff in KOrea. so no they dont ignore reality. they just dont need foreigner.
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On October 29 2011 18:49 suejak wrote:
On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea.
BW players have no reason to leave Korea because there are no BW tournaments outside of Korea and very few BW fans outside of Korea. Note that Korean BW players actually have been sent abroad several times to China, where there's an actual fanbase to market to. NFL players don't do a whole lot of international travel either, and it's not because the sponsors and team owners only do business in the US.
In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea.
Uh, you realize that KeSPA is made up of the sponsors of the BW teams, right? The last president (and maybe the current one as well, can't remember if someone else took the position since) was from SK Telecom. So you're saying that KeSPA, i.e. SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and so on, all companies that do business pretty much exclusively in Korea except for Samsung, are considering a switch because of foreign revenue potential?
To ignore this reality bespeaks a total lack of understanding of the world.
How ironic.
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On October 29 2011 19:07 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 18:49 suejak wrote:
On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea. BW players have no reason to leave Korea because there are no BW tournaments outside of Korea and very few BW fans outside of Korea. Note that Korean BW players actually have been sent abroad several times to China, where there's an actual fanbase to market to. NFL players don't do a whole lot of international travel either, and it's not because the sponsors and team owners only do business in the US.
Yes, and American football is not popular outside of the United States. You can only find pockets of very very niche interest outside of the US. There is no market for the NFL outside of North America. That is the whole point, man.
Show nested quote +In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea. Uh, you realize that KeSPA is made up of the sponsors of the BW teams, right? The last president (and maybe the current one as well, can't remember if someone else took the position since) was from SK Telecom. So you're saying that KeSPA, i.e. SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and so on, all companies that do business pretty much exclusively in Korea except for Samsung, are considering a switch because of foreign revenue potential?
Yes. I also know how businesses work, as do most people who read the news. Kespa sees an opportunity to use its current talent pool to bring in additional viewers of a new game (SC2), by offering higher-level competition. There is huge viewership potential from foreign viewers. These viewers will not only be advertised to, but pay to watch Internet streams of good games. There is absolutely no way that any business would ignore this market -- because if it did, simple market forces would push money in other directions. The players would realize that they'd get more money if they traveled abroad or joined foreign, internationally-sponsored teams. Teams like EG can absolutely outbid a team like SKT or Oz for a top player. The teams would realize they'd get better sponsorship deals by welcoming foreign/international sponsors like FXO and Intel, etc. These options would exist, and it is impossible that the sheer pressure of foreign money in SC2 would not rip any xenophobic tendencies to shreds.
I really don't see why it's necessary to explain this. It is impossible that KESPA will shut out foreign viewership and survive. And if they don't shut out foreign viewership, they're going to have a hard time shutting out foreign players.
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United States7639 Posts
On October 29 2011 18:49 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 16:57 PHC wrote:On October 29 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote:
What would KESPA have against foreign fans/players? That part isn't explained anywhere. The fact that it shunned English casting in BW doesn't prove anything. SC2 popularity outside of Korea far exceeds that of BW, so to turn away the foreign market would be giving up potential profit. Some of you guys have weird conceptions of how business works. Why would companies such as SK-Telecom and Hwaseung, Hite, Lecaf, etc. have any interest in a foreign market when their products are only consumed in Korea? Why would a Korean bank, a Korean cell-phone company, a Korean beer company, etc... want to set up English casting for their Starcraft league, when their consumers and target audience are 99% Korean? There is no way a Korean corporation is stupid enough to invest money in English casting if their products are only consumed by Koreans. If you want to see English casting, it would have to be approved by KeSPA and be funded by a different source (such as Blizzard). Think about it. If you are a corporation that makes products that can only be consumed in a single country, why would you waste funding and advertising money to cater to anyone outside of said country? Why should they treat foreign progamers any differently from Korean progamers (in terms of Code-A spots, separate training house, etc)? Unless you have global corporations that are willing to invest millions of dollars to sponsor professional Starcraft teams in Korea, the system will stay in place. I don't know, maybe McDonald's or Coca-Cola or Pepsi can be convinced to fund the teams to improve their reputations in a niche market? One can only hope. Are you under the impression that Korea-exclusive companies are somehow great or ideal sponsors? It's really the best you can do, to some extent, in the Korea-only BW environment. On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea. In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea. To ignore this reality bespeaks a total lack of understanding of the world.
lol you have no idea what you're talking about. Kespa IS the Korean-exclusive companies. Kespa IS SKT, KT, CJ, Samsung, STX and Woongjin. Why would Kespa be clamoring for foreign attention and for foreign money when none of the companies that it comprises of have anything to gain from foreign exposure, except Samsung. And it's not like seeing the Samsung label at MLG or whatever is going to suddenly make everyone go, "Oh my god, I'm gonna go buy a Galaxy now instead of an iPad." Their market and target audience is Korea, because that's where their products/services are based. Meanwhile, bringing in international sponsors would actually just increase competition in their domestic markets.
Yes. I also know how businesses work, as do most people who read the news. Kespa sees an opportunity to use its current talent pool to bring in additional viewers of a new game (SC2), by offering higher-level competition. There is huge viewership potential from foreign viewers. These viewers will not only be advertised to, but pay to watch Internet streams of good games. There is absolutely no way that any business would ignore this market -- because if it did, simple market forces would push money in other directions. The players would realize that they'd get more money if they traveled abroad or joined foreign, internationally-sponsored teams. Teams like EG can absolutely outbid a team like SKT or Oz for a top player. The teams would realize they'd get better sponsorship deals by welcoming foreign/international sponsors like FXO and Intel, etc. These options would exist, and it is impossible that the sheer pressure of foreign money in SC2 would not rip any xenophobic tendencies to shreds.
I really don't see why it's necessary to explain this. It is impossible that KESPA will shut out foreign viewership and survive. And if they don't shut out foreign viewership, they're going to have a hard time shutting out foreign players.
Once again, the companies that form Kespa do not benefit from international exposure. Their products and services are unobtainable by foreigners. What good does it do for Europe to see SK Telecom plastered on their streams? Not like they can go get an SKT phone.
And I think it's pretty funny you think EG can outbid SKT for its star players. SKT has shown itself throughout the years as perfectly willing to dish out ridiculous amounts of money to capture talent from multiple teams (probably why many people despise it so). If EG really had hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on player salaries, they would have done it already and made becoming a SC2 progamer that much more attractive. Isn't that one of the barriers to the gig right now? That there aren't stable salaries for players, and that most income comes from tournament earnings? Someone like Bisu commands a yearly salary of over $200,000. That's 4x the first place prize for GSL or MLG for just ONE player.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least.
With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong.
In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right.
The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
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Why would you suggest EG can outbid anyone for a top player? The amount of total money spent by SKT1 on it's team i bet is magnitudes higher than EG.
Remember the K in KeSPA is Korea, they are not focused on spreading eSports everywhere or something like Gretech is (because they are just acting on Blizzards behalf). It doesn't mean they will ignore it though. But Proleague if it happens will be a bit of an obstacle for traveling players. It's up to teams not KeSPA to decide if they want to let players travel, and they will do as long as the schedule is ok - they will be representing the teams after all, it's not a bad thing. I don't know why people think they wouldn't do that. They will probably also make English support for their tournaments; they never ignored the market before it just didn't exist. Now there's an actual reason to do it.
I think what's more interesting is if foreigner tournaments will have to eventually not let Koreans play. You can't drop a ton extra top-level skilled players in the game and expect many foreigners to be even close. Some maybe, the few who have the dedication.. i suspect it would be young players like Stephano and Gosi[Terran] more than anything. All these older guys, Koreans or foreigners i seriously doubt will be competing.
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On October 29 2011 19:38 seraphe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 18:49 suejak wrote:On October 29 2011 16:57 PHC wrote:On October 29 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote:
What would KESPA have against foreign fans/players? That part isn't explained anywhere. The fact that it shunned English casting in BW doesn't prove anything. SC2 popularity outside of Korea far exceeds that of BW, so to turn away the foreign market would be giving up potential profit. Some of you guys have weird conceptions of how business works. Why would companies such as SK-Telecom and Hwaseung, Hite, Lecaf, etc. have any interest in a foreign market when their products are only consumed in Korea? Why would a Korean bank, a Korean cell-phone company, a Korean beer company, etc... want to set up English casting for their Starcraft league, when their consumers and target audience are 99% Korean? There is no way a Korean corporation is stupid enough to invest money in English casting if their products are only consumed by Koreans. If you want to see English casting, it would have to be approved by KeSPA and be funded by a different source (such as Blizzard). Think about it. If you are a corporation that makes products that can only be consumed in a single country, why would you waste funding and advertising money to cater to anyone outside of said country? Why should they treat foreign progamers any differently from Korean progamers (in terms of Code-A spots, separate training house, etc)? Unless you have global corporations that are willing to invest millions of dollars to sponsor professional Starcraft teams in Korea, the system will stay in place. I don't know, maybe McDonald's or Coca-Cola or Pepsi can be convinced to fund the teams to improve their reputations in a niche market? One can only hope. Are you under the impression that Korea-exclusive companies are somehow great or ideal sponsors? It's really the best you can do, to some extent, in the Korea-only BW environment. On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea. In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea. To ignore this reality bespeaks a total lack of understanding of the world. lol you have no idea what you're talking about. Kespa IS the Korean-exclusive companies. Kespa IS SKT, KT, CJ, Samsung, STX and Woongjin. Why would Kespa be clamoring for foreign attention and for foreign money when none of the companies that it comprises of have anything to gain from foreign exposure, except Samsung. And it's not like seeing the Samsung label at MLG or whatever is going to suddenly make everyone go, "Oh my god, I'm gonna go buy a Galaxy now instead of an iPad." Their market and target audience is Korea, because that's where their products/services are based. Meanwhile, bringing in international sponsors would actually just increase competition in their domestic markets.
First of all, simply to get this out of the way, I have no idea why you think that Samsung advertising is so special that it would be especially ineffective at MLG. If anything, that is amazing for Samsung's advertising efforts, because it quadruples its exposure in esports.
Secondly, it is painfully obvious that no entertainment company will ever refuse the opportunity to double or triple its viewership. There are a million ways for OGN and even KESPA to profit from a huge increase in foreign viewership, as they can make deals with bigger international sponsors to advertise to foreign audiences on foreign streams, etc. This would only bring more money into things -- which is good for everybody. Everyone would demand this, in fact: the management of OGN as a company, OGN shareholders, players, team management, etc. There is no way that foreign pressure would not split the whole thing right open.
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On October 29 2011 19:46 infinity2k9 wrote: It's up to teams not KeSPA to decide if they want to let players travel, and they will do as long as the schedule is ok - they will be representing the teams after all, it's not a bad thing. I don't know why people think they wouldn't do that. They will probably also make English support for their tournaments; they never ignored the market before it just didn't exist. Now there's an actual reason to do it.
This is part is right, and exactly what I'm saying. Except that teams will absolutely 100% send players to foreign tournaments as long as they can afford it -- the potential money and pressure and exposure is just too high. Moreover, players will be receiving lots of competitive offers from outside of the Kespa structure, so teams will either need to be infused with a lot of foreign money or lose their players to foreign teams (as has happened numerous times in SC2 history already).
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On October 29 2011 07:16 kamikami wrote:
There's 0 reason that a white dude should be given reserved places in tournaments where others must spend 16 hours a day practicing during many months to get in. If one want to play in a tournament, he should use his skill to obtain it by defeating other contenders.
Actually there's very good reason for that. With the current lengths you need to go to to get into GSL, it simply isn't possible to do it while not living in Korea.
Many top players are very passionate about SC2 and have dedicated a big part of their current life to it, but moving to another country halfway across the world is a big step regardless and cannot reasonably be expected of any player who wants to give pro gaming a shot. For many, it will be too big a step to take, and this would make it very hard if not impossible for non-koreans to make it into the GSL or other extended Korean tournaments via the normal way.
A code A/S invite like some players are granted is simply saying: "You're probably good enough to get in if you lived in Korea, here's a spot. Now go and prove it."
You only get that invite by actually posting results, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that sucky players without any practice are being invited just because they're not Korean.
Yes, you get a quicker way in, but you'll still be facing the same level of play those 'regular' players would face. If you get demolished, you'll be out just as quickly.
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Well all the teams let their players go to WCG's in the past, and Chinese events as well. Because of travel costs i don't think they will be sending all their players out for everything, that would be stupid.. the current teams won't even do that. But if a player has a chance to compete then i think they would. If there's a situation where many Koreans intend to go to one tournament though, thus lowering the chances of winning a prize then i'm not sure. But that's just common sense not unique to the Korean teams.
I'm not sure they will be receiving many offers though. It's too early to say. Not many teams even pay significant salaries outside of Korea, what you are saying can't really happen unless there's quite a bit more growth of the scene. EG is the obvious example everyone always gives, with something around 80-100k is suggested as the possible salary for Huk. But that's one player, and one team. How many more do you think they could afford to give that salary to? And also from a sponsors perspective isn't Huk more marketable and relevant to the foreign scene than any Korean players? Let's just say the equivalent to Huk in BW (by his SC2 position) would be lets say... Movie. Would EG offer the same contract to Movie, because i don't think so.
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And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
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On October 29 2011 19:42 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least. With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong. In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right. The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
Bluargh, when this happens I will stop watching StarCraft.
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On October 29 2011 20:26 ct2299 wrote:
And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
Damn those dickwads at Kespa for fucking up bw by making the most legitimate, amazing e-sports industry that captured the attention of an entire nation. Motherfuckers.
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United States361 Posts
On October 29 2011 22:03 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 20:26 ct2299 wrote:
And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well. Damn those dickwads at Kespa for fucking up bw by making the most legitimate, amazing e-sports industry that captured the attention of an entire nation. Motherfuckers.
this really isn't true though. Kespa sponsors had been doing stuff for a while, and the BW scene was going strong. For everything KeSPAa did good they also fucked up horribly. just go and look at the list of DQs.
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That's like saying FIFA is seven ways of fucked up because of a referee's bad call. Let's pretend FIFA isn't horribly corrupt for the sake of my argument.
Kespa sponsors decided to form Kespa to bring BW progaming to a new level and better represent their own interests. They succeeded. How is Kespa evil again? The sum of these sponsors is well-intentioned, but the whole is evil and corrupt and DQ players simply because they can?
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On October 29 2011 19:42 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least. With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong. In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right. The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
When this happens I want to be reading it.
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On October 29 2011 20:11 infinity2k9 wrote:
Well all the teams let their players go to WCG's in the past, and Chinese events as well. Because of travel costs i don't think they will be sending all their players out for everything, that would be stupid.. the current teams won't even do that. But if a player has a chance to compete then i think they would. If there's a situation where many Koreans intend to go to one tournament though, thus lowering the chances of winning a prize then i'm not sure. But that's just common sense not unique to the Korean teams.
I'm not sure they will be receiving many offers though. It's too early to say. Not many teams even pay significant salaries outside of Korea, what you are saying can't really happen unless there's quite a bit more growth of the scene. EG is the obvious example everyone always gives, with something around 80-100k is suggested as the possible salary for Huk. But that's one player, and one team. How many more do you think they could afford to give that salary to? And also from a sponsors perspective isn't Huk more marketable and relevant to the foreign scene than any Korean players? Let's just say the equivalent to Huk in BW (by his SC2 position) would be lets say... Movie. Would EG offer the same contract to Movie, because i don't think so.
Off the top of my head, HuK, Idra, Naniwa, Stephano, and White-Ra all get paid extremely well. And these are just the foreign players I can think of.
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Let the war between the Current korean pro scene + the Foreigner division Vs. The old BW pros begin!
if the current crowd of SC2 pros stays on top i would imagine it would be hard for kespa to simply assimilate everything right?
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On October 29 2011 06:53 Kroml. wrote:
Blizzard is SO aggressive and protecting about SC2, I don't think the "Dominant KeSPA Problem" will occur. If KeSPA, even tries a little, to isolate Korean scene and IF this causes the interest to decrease, Blizzard will immediately react.
The last time and other times Blizzard fucked with KeSPA didn't go well for Blizzard. SC2 won't do shit in Korea unless KeSPA helps it. KeSPA had only one single response to Blizzard for the whole time being: "Fuck that shit". And due to matter of fact, Blizzard still has to do business with KeSPA just for the sake of South Korean market. Just because of that, if Blizzard tries to tell KeSPA what to do, they will get the same response as before: "Fuck that shit".
On October 29 2011 20:26 ct2299 wrote:
And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
KeSPA will "get all xenophobic in SC2 as well". They don't give a fuck to Blizzard and Blizzard's rights and the way Blizzard exercises their rights. And they still win every single time.
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EPT
