For the sport we love, the switch of Kespa to SC2 is the most significant event since the launch of GSL. With the entry of Kespa, SC2 receives immediate legitimacy as a spectator sport in the eyes of Korean corporations, and, probably, Korean viewers. It also implies a massive infusion of corporate cash into the Korean scene, which can mean nothing but good things for the game there.
Kespa's entry might also mean the death of the foreign scene, or at least its eventual irrelevance. Here's why.
To understand my argument, you must understand the culture of Kespa and the way it functioned in the Brood War days. Back before SC2 came out, Kespa maintained two policies that allowed it to keep complete control of the BW scene: high barriers of entry onto SC:BW proteams, and anti-competitive practices that smashed any kind of outside challenge to its sanctioned leagues and events.
To join a proteam in Korea, a prospective player had to fulfill two extremely difficult tasks. First, the player would have to win a "Courage" tournament in order to obtain a semi-pro license, a grueling affair that even players such as Flash and Jaedong couldn't overcome on their first try. Then a newly minted semi-pro would have to catch the eye of a proteam and be added onto the team individually, or drafted in yearly events. There were exceptions to this restrictive system (such as IdrA, who was granted a pro license by his team, eSTRO), but for the most part, anyone who wanted to compete in the Brood War scene needed to spend a significant time in Korea.
Regarding anti-competitive practices: GOM TV started a SC:BW league in 2008. It was casted in English by Tasteless and various co-casters (lilsusie, Daniel Lee). It featured Korean progamers; the finals of the first season was Flash vs Jaedong. But slowly and steadily, Kespa pressured the teams to pull their players from the league. By the third season, only eight out of the twelve proteams were participating in the league. There was no fourth season. Kespa had control over both the bulk of the talent and the bulk of the sponsorship money; there was no overcoming that. So ended the experiment of English coverage of Korean BW.
a snippet of Tasteless's commentating
You all know what happened at the launch of SC2 between Blizzard and Kespa. Kespa was not seriously interested in negotiating with either Blizzard or GOM to secure rights to BW or SC2. They preferred to allow the issue to proceed to court. No deal was reached, and neither Blizzard nor GOM ended up pursuing legal action. If I remember correctly, the MSL and OSL reached individual deals with Blizzard.
The danger to the international SC2 scene is this: if Kespa-approved leagues destroy GOM with superior production quality and superior talent (and there is no reason to assume that this will not happen), the dichotomy between the Korean and Foreign scenes may regress to what it was in BW.
Currently, foreigners enjoy a wide variety of benefits regarding SC2 that they did not enjoy in BW. The most prominent SC2 tournament in Korea has a dedicated foreigner stream with English casting. Top-level foreigners can fly to Korea and, in many cases, have a Code A spot waiting for them. Indeed, this exact situation will take place when IdrA and DeMusliM take up residence in Korea. There are no restrictions on proteams from adding a foreign player to their ranks, permanently or temporarily.
If GOM dies due to all of the talent and sponsorship money being on Kespa's side, all of those benefits for foreigners will disappear. If Kespa does things the way they used to, it will be impossible, for example, for an EG player to participate in Korean SC2. It is also unlikely that OGN or MBC (if MBC still exists by then, which is doubtful) will provide an English stream.
In that case, SC2 will be split into two scenes, foreign and Korean, with the bulk of the talent in one tiny country. It'll be Brood War all over again.
This prophecy of doom relies on two things: one, that Kespa is utterly inflexible in its dealings with GOM and Blizzard; and two, that Kespa keeps the high barriers of entry into its tournaments that it has had in the past.
The entry of the Kespa-sanctioned teams into SC2 cannot be interpreted as anything but a very good thing for spectators of SC2. Within a year, players like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu will bring the sport of Starcraft 2 to new heights. This isn't a possibility. It is a sure thing.
However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least.
Thanks for writing what I'm thinking. I know some people are happy that the overall quality of games will go up, but most people don't really understand how much of a stranglehold KeSPA and Korea had on the BW scene.
Athough doesn't GomTV have an exclusive liscence to broadcast SC2 in South Korea? If KeSPA becomes too anti-foriegner and anti-competitive, Blizzard can do something about it right?
Although you make a great point motbob, and although I didn't follow the SCBW scene (I got into SC2 post beta), the foreign community and scene is partially what makes SC2 so great. That its an international movment, and not just a "korean thing." It scares me, to say the least.
Although on the flipside, KeSPA might see how international SC2 is and relent their old stubborn ways. I mean, a vast majority of SC2 occurs on the other side of the world from Korea. What progamer wouldn;t want to partcipate in foreign events after seeing how loudly we chear for the Koreans at tournaments? (e.g GSL October Finals at Blizzcon.)
I totally agree, but since the BW pros were at blizzcon, kespa saw the money and fan base in the foreign scene. Oh and did I say the money? So looking at this optimistically maybe they will want more foreign players and what not. I am nervous and excited to see what is to come!
Call me selfish, but as long as the players are happy (eg, not treated like slaves), and I get to watch pro games through TL streams, then I'm good. Foreigners, koreans, I don't really care. I just want the highest level of play.
Nonetheless, as someone said earlier, KeSPA may very well have plans on an international scale. I wish we had some inside informations from KeSPA.
KeSPA had to realise with the fact two to three teams nearly folded or did fold this year and two folded last year, that they will need to appeal to a global audience to ensure this does not happen again. KeSPA will hopefully be more friendly towards foreign fans and offer their games with an English cast. (I would watch it in Korean if that was the only option and still enjoy it).
As for the progamer side of things, KeSPA doesn't have any reason not to make it as tough to get into their events as it was in Brood War. Keep the talent pool high and the matches should be as high level as possible. Sucks for the lesser skilled players, but if SC2 is truely the e-sports game of the west, we wil have our own scene that can keep progamers competing for nice prize pools.
Only time will tell if KeSPA has changed their outlook on the world stage or if they will just turtle and stick to the Korean fans needs, which would make more sense since they are the Korean eSPorts Association.
I hope this wont happen. But gom still have the rights for sc2 in Korea for another year. And hopefully they'll renew the rights for the next 2 years after that, but I wouldnt be surprised if blizz would choose kespa/ogn/mbc (?) over gom, just because it'll be on tv.
I really hope it wont be like this. I dont want sc2 to be like bw, where bw was Isolated to Korea .
KeSPA is a wall for larger companies to handle the talent and organization of the sc1 scene.
KeSPA has to deal with a company that has a retardedly ironclad contract for rights and an even larger company behind it with favorable korean standing to strong arm it.
No - KeSPA is just going where the money is, and large companies with players wanting to travel to tournaments for fame and fortune is all the pressure KeSPA really needs to hear about.
Edit: I'm sorry but the majority of this is just fear hype and gross over evaluation of the power and motivation of KeSPA.
KeSPA went to blizzcon and got to see and feel a forgein scene at its peak. I hope they realized how big the global market of pro sc2 is and how much they can do to add professionalism and solidiaty to an enormous market.
I don't understand how the history will repeat itself regarding Kespa taking over again since Blizzard now more or less dictates what Kespa can and cannot do with Starcraft2.
I think it all comes to Blizzard in SC2, not KeSPA.
When Brood War became a national sport in Korea, Blizzard's approach to Brood War was not the same as now, to SC2.
Now Blizzard, literally "brought it" by pursuing lawsuits and negotiations, showing that "Starcraft II is Blizzard's, if you want to do something with SC2, you need to pass Blizzard"
Blizzard is SO aggressive and protecting about SC2, I don't think the "Dominant KeSPA Problem" will occur. If KeSPA, even tries a little, to isolate Korean scene and IF this causes the interest to decrease, Blizzard will immediately react.
With SC2's current popularity in Korea I have a hard time believing any switch by KeSPA to SC2 is because of the Korean audience. No matter KeSPA's past involvement with the rest of the world I have a hard time believing they would just completely ignore us like before when there is an actual audience to make money off of this time around.
The one thing that may be different this time around though is where the support for SC2 currently lies. If KeSPA chooses to remain very niche and only worry about Korea then yes, this could easily happen.
However, given that the international market is where the enormous scene is exploding right now it would be pretty surprising to me if KeSPA chose to ignore that. Tapping into that interest means that we will probably have things like English casts and there probably will be pressure for foreigners to have ways into Korean events. Isolate the non-korean scene for SC2 and you lose massive, massive revenue potential.
I definitely agree with the fact that KeSPA has a a way of doing things that might not appeal to most foreigners. As things unfold, what we can do is only speculate. So for the meanwhile, we can only assume that SC2 as a sport will grow to new heights, but at what expense.
Thanks. I understand Kespa a bit better now. As a newbie to the Starcraft 2 scene, I've been wondering for the past 6 months why everyone seems to HATE the shit out of Kespa.
The thing is that GOM tv is still holding the right for sc2 in Korea, so they are the one in a position of power so I really doubt Kespa will be able to do what they want. If Kespa tries to do the same thing with sc2 that they did with bw it will fail, there is too much interest in the western world to ignore it.
I think there are a few things in place to prevent this from happening. Blizzard has more control over sc2 than sc1 right now, and I highly doubt they're going to let another organization take so much control over the game. Also, for the most part, it seems to me that a lot of sc2 players, coaches, and Mr. Chae are all anti-Kespa policies.
On October 29 2011 07:10 Itsmedudeman wrote: I think there are a few things in place to prevent this from happening. Blizzard has more control over sc2 than sc1 right now, and I highly doubt they're going to let another organization take so much control over the game. Also, for the most part, it seems to me that a lot of sc2 players, coaches, and Mr. Chae are all anti-Kespa policies.
When you're only looking internationally though. When you magnify the stars in the BW scene and KeSPA's backing, you'll quickly notice who's who in Korea.
On October 29 2011 06:51 Integra wrote: I don't understand how the history will repeat itself regarding Kespa taking over again since Blizzard now more or less dictates what Kespa can and cannot do with Starcraft2.
Kespa have government power, they will just get the upper hand when dealing with a company like Blizzard. When Blizzard brought the BW issue to court Kespa didn't even care a bit because there's just no way Blizzard can beat them in court at all.
In the other hand, the government and the companies that made Kespa are clearly interested in spreading esport to the world, so of course they will reach out to the international market. I think they will have dedicated stream for foreigners and English casting. But one thing for sure is that they won't give foreigners "easier access" or "automatic advantage" in their tournament, and it's a good thing. There's 0 reason that a white dude should be given reserved places in tournaments where others must spend 16 hours a day practicing during many months to get in. If one want to play in a tournament, he should use his skill to obtain it by defeating other contenders.
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
HELL YEAH MOTBOB! I'm really worried about KeSPA ruining all the good that has been done. I can already Koreans being removed from foreign tournaments, promising certain Blizzcon players only to send replacements, in general that isolationist and nationalistic approach that KeSPA seems to embrace.
It's sad really. That wall finally came down and RTS e-sports finally became a glorious world wide shared event. Koreans traveling everywhere, foreigner and Korean teams working hand in hand, Koreans doing english interviews that were actually filled with personality rather than the boring PR coached crap. As a fan, I want the BW players but I want nothing to do with KeSPA. So much so that if KeSPA had to come with the players, I'd just rather they keep playing Broodwar.
The only person that would have any power to make sure that KeSPA doesn't undo all the progress we've seen is Blizzard and I'm not sure I have faith in them on the business side. I'll put a little more faith in KeSPAs need to control and maintain their status quo and hope it's enough to keep them out of SC2.
Since Blizz will need to give KeSPA the rights to broadcast and hold tournaments, they will hopefully have clauses that prevent anti-competitive practices to take place. If they monopolize the game in Korea and shut out foreigners etc. It is entirely possible that Blizzard won't renew contracts.
Furthermore, the fact SC2 has such a strong start in the foreign scene means that hopefully the players themselves won't want to be stuck in Korea. If GSL continues and MLG remains a major event players might choose to forego a kespa league if it means they will never leave Korea. They might want to come to the US or go to a dreamhack and experience it. Hopefully globalization will lead to the end of KeSPA's anti competition practices and force them to keep it open.
Further, they will need to buckle to an english broadcast eventually if they want to compete with the GSL internationally which may be the saving grace this time around. With the international scene so big to ignore it is a mistake with regards to business decisions. To assume we will just watch a KeSPA league and ignore everything else is very naive if this is the position KeSPA takes.
Those are my 2 cents though I'm not sure how valid they will be a year from now. I hope they bear fruit and we don't see starcraft fragmented again.
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
On October 29 2011 06:22 motbob wrote: In that case, SC2 will be split into two scenes, foreign and Korean, with the bulk of the talent in one tiny country. It'll be Brood War all over again.
In some ways, yes - but the foreigner scene will still be big, albeit, much worse than the one in Korea.
The big thing is that there's now money in the foreign scene, there's never been before. KeSPA respects money. If Quantic and EG want their players in a KeSPA league, the deciding factor will be qualifiers and skill.
Do we really want an "Airforce Ace" team consisting mainly of foreigners that gets to be in the league but always does bad and loses with a few exceptions that keep us cheering for old heroes?
There's only ONE way to save foreigners in Korea and that's skill. You say all this stuff about blocking teams and new players from the leagues. While that's somewhat true - it ignores the major factor here: after a certain point in history there was no foreigner fit for televised games. It would have been embarrassing, it would have been a slaughter. We had Draco and Tyler who on raw talent could muster up some insane games where they beat the Koreans, but consistently? No way. Even if the entire foreign BW scene (every WCG participant) was moved to Korea and put in team houses for practice, it wouldn't have been enough - we were too far behind.
With SC2 we're not really that far behind, but it's going to take corporate sponsorship and a lot more talented players sent to Korea for us to ever remain a factor there.
Next time Slasher makes a bet for his hair, it'll be for a foreigner to even make it into (past the qualifiers) of a Starleague. Currently - if even just half of the BW scene moves to SC2 - there's not a single foreigner who could make it in one years time.
Starting with the strategy reset that will follow with HotS - we need at least twenty foreigners living and practicing in Korea. Or we're faced with a split scene.
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
If GOM dies due to all of the talent and sponsorship money being on Kespa's side, all of those benefits for foreigners will disappear. If Kespa does things the way they used to, it will be impossible for an EG player to participate in Korean SC2. It is also unlikely that OGN or MBC (if MBC still exists by then, which is doubtful) will provide an English stream.
i think this is the most important reason why history will not repeat itself
if you recall, the official reason that gom got strong-armed out of kespa, was that the teams were apparently complaining that it was too much work to prepare for 3 individual leagues on top of proleague. in reality what this really meant was that when the team's star had 2-3 individual leagues to prepare for instead of 1-2, their proleague performance would suffer, which pissed off the sponsors, because proleague is where they get most of their exposure
so, now that mbcgame is disbanding, there is only osl left. so this time around, there will be room for gsl to participate in kespa.
you are probably right that kespa's involvement may squeeze out the foreign players, except for maybe one or two, if even that. but, i think now that the market for sc has shrunk a bit, there's room for gsl, so I wouldn't be too worried about the future of english commentary, at least
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
Yeah, but those are minimal. Of course the bar is raised in terms of standards of "high-level" play, but the exchange is more and we lose the english narrative that you were talking about and eventually we lose the key players we have now in terms of business people, companies and/or more players and thus the separation of players in Korea and Foreigners is strengthened.
Will this affect the mix 'n' match that we have going on now? Koreans on Foreign teams and vice-versa? If this separation does ensue, will new foreign blood begin to propser faster as they are given more opportunity given Koreans are back in their base and thus a void must be filled with potentially new players?
I have to believe there are more foreign SC2 fans/spectators than there are Korean SC1/SC2 fans/spectators. Kespa is not blind. While from what I hear the BW sponsors were largely local Korean companies, SC2 has a broad international audience which brings the potential for global sponsors. If Kespa turns SC2 in Korea in to a Korean only scene, then they are depriving themselves of a lot of potential revenue. I can't see this happening. Also, when GOM signed a contract with Blizzard in 2010 for exclusive SC2 broadcasting rights, they signed a 3 year contact. So for a while, Kespa only gets to broadcast SC2 in Korea with GOM's permission. Seems like this should favor GOM surviving w/e Kespa does for atleast the next few years.
Well I don't know the whole situation, but isn't Kespa allowed to play sc2 now because Blizzard made some kind of agreement with them? If that is the case, I would imagine they can't be as strict, and that Blizzard is managing decently.
I really hope they aren't as strict this time around. SC2 can grow very well globally if they allow for foreigners to train and participate in tournaments in Korea, though I still wonder if foreigners will fall more quickly behind with all the support sc2 players will get in Korea. It will be interesting to see how things will turn out, but it seems like there will be a lot of big news soon.... hopefully for the better.
On October 29 2011 06:22 motbob wrote: The entry of the Kespa-sanctioned teams into SC2 cannot be interpreted as anything but a very good thing for spectators of SC2.
On October 29 2011 06:22 motbob wrote: It is also unlikely that OGN or MBC (if MBC still exists by then, which is doubtful) will provide an English stream.
If they do not provide an English stream, then it would be a very bad thing for (English speaking) spectators of SC2!
At least now we'll see real progamers playing the game and pushing it to the limit. +1 for Kespa and what it has done for Broodwar, you can see how beautiful the games can be when played correctly and it only could have happened if Kespa was like this in the first place
I have a legitimate question, and I don't ask this to prove a point and go OP YOU'RE WRONG LOL, I'm honestly curious, as a person who had no idea that an esports scene like this existed until early SC2 beta.
From what I've gathered with my short history of BW (aka reading the Starcraft Bible and doing a project that made me research bw history + relation w/ KeSPA)... Korean teams never necessarily had partnerships with foreign teams as they do now (QxG + IM, EG + SlayerS, coL + MVP, etc...)... wouldn't there be a lot more pressure on KeSPA to work with teams, since the teams can go "No, these foreigners are on our teams, why aren't you letting them participate?
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
Yeah, but those are minimal. Of course the bar is raised in terms of standards of "high-level" play, but the exchange is more and we lose the english narrative that you were talking about and eventually we lose the key players we have now in terms of business people, companies and/or more players and thus the separation of players in Korea and Foreigners is strengthened.
Will this affect the mix 'n' match that we have going on now? Koreans on Foreign teams and vice-versa? If this separation does ensue, will new foreign blood begin to propser faster as they are given more opportunity given Koreans are back in their base and thus a void must be filled with potentially new players?
That's what I'm wondering.
Hmm, you say that that consideration is minimal but I don't agree. Remember: a lot of us veterans used to spend a great deal of time watching Korean BW with Korean commentary and loving every bit of it. The skill of the players made it all worth watching, and we didn't need an English voice telling us why we were enjoying ourselves. If SC2 were to both receive a massive infusion of talent and lose all English streams from Korea due to GOM's death, I would not complain too much.
The "key players" that we would lose would be replaced by Kespa. They would probably not have any interaction with the foreign community, but they would fulfill their job of strengthening the Korean esports scene well enough.
The mix 'n' match going on right now will be a non-factor whenever GOM becomes a non-factor. Do you really think that Kespa is going to bring eight-odd teams into its fold?
Its a grueling scenario that could happen if it wasnt for one big difference between then and now.
In 2008 there wasnt a 3rd party to set the rules. There was no licenses to pay and broadcast contracts that could be denied renewal if that 3rd party which is Blizzard was not pleased. KeSPA was 100% in charge back then. Now however if KeSPA doesnt play ball like Blizzard want them to the can be denied a renewal of their broadcasting contract.
Right now negotiasions are between GOM, KeSPA and blizzard and the transition will not happen in the first place if all 3 parties do not come to an agreement that ensures them all to have their future secured.
The only scenario in which GOM could end up as loser is if Blizzard fucks over GOM. If Blizzard give KeSPA full control to push GOM out. I find that very unlikely.
At the same time KeSPA may be more interested in the foreign scene. In BW KeSPA had very little to gain from the foreign scene. At the very very best 10k viewers, no sponsors and no players that could seriously contend. SC2 already have a viewerbase of 100k+ and a lot of foreign talent that can be beneficial to the SC2 scene in Korea. Not to mention international sponsors that will benefit the scene even in Korea as well.
So while we can look at history and fear a repeat I dont think it is something we will ever see again. Blizzard wont allow that.
Blizzard has an iron hold over kespa this time. If blizzard doesn't like the things kespa does (like cutting out international relations) blizzard can stop them from playing by denying service to their IPs. This is probably the #1 reason blizzard did not add LAN into sc2.
I think the reason for BW players or KeSPA switching to SC2 would be because of the foreign scene and fan base (the Korean sc2 scene is not that big). So I don't think KeSPA will shut out the foreigners or the foreign fans.
Thanks for giving a historical perspective. Most of us are simply to new to eSports to understand all the implications of the recent news.
Based on motbob's information: if we like the track SC2 is on now, KESPA entering the fray is bad news. If we prefer the way BW has been, KESPA entering the fray is good news. Either way, the level of play will no doubt rise dramatically, and a storm is coming.
On October 29 2011 08:13 Primadog wrote: Thanks for giving a historical perspective. Most of us are simply to new to eSports to understand all the implications of the recent news.
Based on motbob's information: if we like the track SC2 is on now, KESPA entering the fray is bad news. If we prefer the way BW has been, KESPA entering the fray is good news. Either way, the level of play will no doubt rise dramatically, and a storm is coming.
I think its apples to oranges. At the end of the day KeSPA is business people, that's why they didn't work with Blizzard and have has such a longstanding feud, the almighty dollar, and where do you think they will find the most $$$, in Korea? or in Korea + the rest of the world? KeSPA to me always seemed to act very self interested, and if they do so in SC2, it will not involve cutting out the access/participation of the foreign scene.
If kespa wants international audiences (which from the sound of it sounds like it does), then they will have to be open to foreign fans. That includes english casters and foreign players. If that's the case, then likely they will not enforce strict rules for their individual leagues. My guess is they will make rules for their pro league and teams which abide by those rules will be allowed entry. As far as progamer liscences. Those probably will be pro team liscences instead. Let's hope kespa is interested in the foreign community.
On October 29 2011 06:53 Kroml. wrote: I think it all comes to Blizzard in SC2, not KeSPA.
When Brood War became a national sport in Korea, Blizzard's approach to Brood War was not the same as now, to SC2.
Now Blizzard, literally "brought it" by pursuing lawsuits and negotiations, showing that "Starcraft II is Blizzard's, if you want to do something with SC2, you need to pass Blizzard"
Blizzard is SO aggressive and protecting about SC2, I don't think the "Dominant KeSPA Problem" will occur. If KeSPA, even tries a little, to isolate Korean scene and IF this causes the interest to decrease, Blizzard will immediately react.
Exactly! Blizzard owns everything for SC2 now. They played their cards perfectly by removing LAN. This makes it impossible for KeSPA to do anything SC2 related with out involving Blizzard, you need to go though battle.net. Blizzard doesnt want KeSPAs finals to go through, ban the events ip, now they have fans sitting there because KeSPA didnt play by the rules Blizzard put forwards.
KeSPA has one option to avoid Blizzard, and thats to use Chineese clients with the cracked LAN. If they stream a tournament thats using stolen goods to gain profit, and they are supplying the evidence to bring a lawsuit that has traction and isnt easily avoided. The whole piracy issue is massive, considering that the US spent untold millions to modify other countries piracy laws, its something that is less and less in favor of KeSPA and more in favor of Blizzard.
HE WILL RULE THIS SECTOR THIS GAME OR SEE IT BURNT TO ASHES AROUND HIM
srsli though, i think blizz or more than well prepared for the upcoming struggle, legal or whatever. blizz dictates this time because of the simple fact that there is no lan server. if kespa wants to even play a single game they'll have to have blizzard's permission. but there's not going to be a legal battle or anything, there's too much profit in this for both parties. mbc didn't shut down for nothing, all those teams didn't lose sponsors for nothing. bw is going down () and kespa knows it, china isn't gonna save them but sc2 and blizz might.
This is all assuming things go back to the way they were, however I see no indication of that happening. GOM's catering to foreigners more and more, this has to be an indication that the majority of their viewership is non-korean. I see no reason for KESPA as batshit as they may be, to throw away hundreds of thousands of viewers. Literally all they need to do is let foreigners qualify same as koreans and hire tastosis.
BW is dying in Korea. SC2 is exploding outside of Korea. KESPA needs us more than we need them.
On October 29 2011 07:48 Flanagan wrote: From what I've gathered with my short history of BW (aka reading the Starcraft Bible and doing a project that made me research bw history + relation w/ KeSPA)... Korean teams never necessarily had partnerships with foreign teams as they do now (QxG + IM, EG + SlayerS, coL + MVP, etc...)... wouldn't there be a lot more pressure on KeSPA to work with teams, since the teams can go "No, these foreigners are on our teams, why aren't you letting them participate?
They never disallow participation of a foreigner, as long as that player has the skill. In fact in their system the nationality doesn't matter, as long as you have the skill you can win Courage and get a progamer licence and get picked by a team and play on TV. They even had program to let foreigner practice with their teams and fight their way up to the A-team. The truth is, those foreigners just failed to win and had horrible winrates and so not suitable for competitive matches. In SC2, the foreigners DO have the ability to win and have a respectable winrate, so they will be given playtime, it's simple and it's the same for every sport. They just won't give foreigners unfair advantages like reserved place in tournaments or automatic competitive matches, they will need to win against other people to get there, like everyone else.
On October 29 2011 08:27 Oreo7 wrote: This is all assuming things go back to the way they were, however I see no indication of that happening. GOM's catering to foreigners more and more, this has to be an indication that the majority of their viewership is non-korean. I see no reason for KESPA as batshit as they may be, to throw away hundreds of thousands of viewers. Literally all they need to do is let foreigners qualify same as koreans and hire tastosis.
BW is dying in Korea. SC2 is exploding outside of Korea. KESPA needs us more than we need them.
You're exactly right. This motbob article is super sensationalist and obviously overlooking major points. This isn't BW. SC2 is far more popular outside of Korea than BW ever ever was. We have tons of money and huge crowds, tons of publicity. If KESPA ignored us, they'd be missing a lot of revenue that WOULD go elsewhere.
On October 29 2011 08:24 prplhz wrote: BOB KOTICK AINT NO PUSHOVER
HE WILL RULE THIS SECTOR THIS GAME OR SEE IT BURNT TO ASHES AROUND HIM
srsli though, i think blizz or more than well prepared for the upcoming struggle, legal or whatever. blizz dictates this time because of the simple fact that there is no lan server. if kespa wants to even play a single game they'll have to have blizzard's permission. but there's not going to be a legal battle or anything, there's too much profit in this for both parties. mbc didn't shut down for nothing, all those teams didn't lose sponsors for nothing. bw is going down () and kespa knows it, china isn't gonna save them but sc2 and blizz might.
Kotick is in no way involved with Blizzard. You need to learn how Vivendi (owner of both Activision and Blizzard) operates. They let blizzard do whatever they want because its still bringing in money. Last few quarters Activision was losing money, Blizzard kept both in the black. Blizzard is its own entity.
On October 29 2011 08:27 Oreo7 wrote: This is all assuming things go back to the way they were, however I see no indication of that happening. GOM's catering to foreigners more and more, this has to be an indication that the majority of their viewership is non-korean. I see no reason for KESPA as batshit as they may be, to throw away hundreds of thousands of viewers. Literally all they need to do is let foreigners qualify same as koreans and hire tastosis.
BW is dying in Korea. SC2 is exploding outside of Korea. KESPA needs us more than we need them.
You're exactly right. This motbob article is super sensationalist and obviously overlooking major points. This isn't BW. SC2 is far more popular outside of Korea than BW ever ever was. We have tons of money and huge crowds, tons of publicity. If KESPA ignored us, they'd be missing a lot of revenue that WOULD go elsewhere.
Completely agree. There is actually a foreign market now, and for them to ignore that and shove foreigners out of Korean competition would be pretty detrimental to their potential growth. Furthermore, part of the appeal of switching to SC2 is the foreign viewer market, as SC2 is Korea isn't really large enough to warrant switching over. If kespa decides to alienate foreign participants from their leagues, I would imagine we'd see a similar response from western tournaments, which they obviously don't want.
I can't see them doing that to foreigners this time around. Your post draws its evidence almost entirely from BW, so I'm a bit skeptical.
On October 29 2011 08:27 Oreo7 wrote: This is all assuming things go back to the way they were, however I see no indication of that happening. GOM's catering to foreigners more and more, this has to be an indication that the majority of their viewership is non-korean. I see no reason for KESPA as batshit as they may be, to throw away hundreds of thousands of viewers. Literally all they need to do is let foreigners qualify same as koreans and hire tastosis.
BW is dying in Korea. SC2 is exploding outside of Korea. KESPA needs us more than we need them.
You're exactly right. This motbob article is super sensationalist and obviously overlooking major points. This isn't BW. SC2 is far more popular outside of Korea than BW ever ever was. We have tons of money and huge crowds, tons of publicity. If KESPA ignored us, they'd be missing a lot of revenue that WOULD go elsewhere.
Completely agree. There is actually a foreign market now, and for them to ignore that and shove foreigners out of Korean competition would be pretty detrimental to their potential growth. Furthermore, part of the appeal of switching to SC2 is the foreign viewer market, as SC2 is Korea isn't really large enough to warrant switching over. If kespa decides to alienate foreign participants from their leagues, I would imagine we'd see a similar response from western tournaments, which they obviously don't want.
I can't see them doing that to foreigners this time around. Your post draws its evidence almost entirely from BW, so I'm a bit skeptical.
I am shocked and appalled that people are ignoring years of experience provided by community veterans like motbob. Show some humility. They been here longer than you, and they're recognized figures for good reasons.
If it comes to a power struggle between KESPA and foreigner+GOM, we all lose, regardless of which side do you think comes up on top.
Thanks for putting to words what has been concerning me since this news broke.
It's that BW players could potentially be given a choice to compete on a new field of play (and I'm hoping nobody is forced, but that also wouldn't surprise me). It's fantastic that these players bring with them a level of dedication and professionalism (in that not only do they practice, but they practice in an organized manner) that could vastly improve the level of play across SC2. However, they bring with them an organization that has absolutely no understanding or respect for the vast international fanbase of this game. KESPA could potentially split the community in a way that not only harms the foreign players, but the cuts off the Koreans from potentially more exposure, better salaries, opportunities to travel the world at a young age, and everything else that comes with the truly international competition that we have today. The communities united have an opportunity to take SC2 to a level of recognition that BW was never able to achieve, but divided I don't see it progressing even to the same level of BW in Korea.
My main hope is that Blizzard currently maintains fairly tight reigns on all major competitions and they certainly could force KESPA to play nice with the international events.
While the exclusion of foreign players may seem like a terrible thing, there is another way to look at it.
For one, if foreigner players are truly on the same skill level as Koreans, then KeSPA will only be hurting the sport in Korea by not allowing foreigners to play.
If foreigner players aren't competitive, then why should they be allowed to have a spot in the tournament to begin with? I enjoy watching foreigner players play in Code A, but a lot of them didn't deserve to be there. Deserving, maybe, because they met the qualifications to earn a free spot, but not deserving because they were talented enough to play in that field.
For two, does it actually matter if foreigners split away from the Korean scene? If Flash, Jaedong and Bisu revolutionize SC2 and Korea starts playing SC2 on a level that nobody else in the world can compare to, then is it actually a bad thing? The games will be more entertaining and you may even get that same sense of awe you get when you see incredible vulture micro.
And third, there's always WCG and the possibility of other "world championship" events. In some ways, these events are better if they only happen once or twice per year. How did you feel the first time Koreans came to MLG in Columbus, and IdrA beat MC? Now how do you feel when a foreigner plays a Korean at MLG? It's still entertaining and I guess I can't speak for everyone, but MLG Columbus felt so much better because nobody had seen a true foreigner vs. Korean tournament on that type of scale.
There are no restrictions on proteams from adding a foreign player to their ranks, permanently or temporarily.
If GOM dies due to all of the talent and sponsorship money being on Kespa's side, all of those benefits for foreigners will disappear. If Kespa does things the way they used to, it will be impossible for an EG player to participate in Korean SC2. It is also unlikely that OGN or MBC (if MBC still exists by then, which is doubtful) will provide an English stream.
I think this part of the OP is wrong :
On October 29 2011 06:22 motbob wrote:
There are no restrictions on proteams from adding a foreign player to their ranks, permanently or temporarily.
1> In the actual system of Kespa, there are also no restrictions on proteams from adding a foreign player to their ranks, permanently or temporarily. Proteam can add a foreign player, evaluate his skill, and give him a progamer licence. Actually, the barrier to entry is the same for both Koreans and foreigners, it's the same procedure for a team to add a Korean too.
On October 29 2011 06:22 motbob wrote:
If Kespa does things the way they used to, it will be impossible for an EG player to participate in Korean SC2. It is also unlikely that OGN or MBC (if MBC still exists by then, which is doubtful) will provide an English stream.
2> Why is it impossible ? In the current system of BW If one team want to use EG players in team league, it can announce a partnership with EG and start to add EG players to their rank and give them progamer licences. There is actually no law to prevent it. If a EG player want to participate in a Starleague, he must fight his way to obtain a progamer licence (by winning courage or being given the license by a team - like every Korean).
To sum it up, in Kespa's system, the foreigners have the very same rights as Koreans, and it's up to them to win against Koreans to earn their places in tournament. Accusing Kespa for not letting foreigners to play in their tournaments is wrong, they gave foreigners the very same rights as Koreans and use the very same procedure to give people access to their tournaments. In BW foreigners couldn't take it because they have little skill compared to Koreans, but in SC2 they do have the ability to win, so we will see foreigners in Kespa tournaments. I don't see anything wrong in the system here.
But this time, it's GOM that have the rights and Kespa that want to buy them. It's GOM TV Allstars all over again, except this time the roles are reversed. And I doubt GOM or Blizzard would let Kespa do what you suggest in op. It's a possible scenario, but not a plausible one.
KeSPA hosting a tourneament without lan = Blizzard takes over, which means KeSPA wont be able to secure any tourneaments, which means or they comply with blizzard or they stay in bw
I absolutely do not seeing this happen for one major reason. Blizzard is much more involved with SC2 and esports than it ever was with BW and has much more control over it (well, total control actually) because of no LAN features Kespa has to cooperate with Blizzard. Even if Kespa devours Gom, Blizzard can demand English streams and certain procedures to happen and if Kespa doesn't comply they can simply shut them down. I highly doubt blizzard will let the scene get split in half again and thus killing the marketability of the game to foreign audiences (their main way to make money off the game). While BW was a great game it wasn't anywhere near the cashcow that sc2 is to blizzard. It would take serious neglect to let this outcome become a reality.
I can't see Kespa saying "No" against english stream for their tournaments and excluding foreign players, when we bring so many more viewers to the scene. The foreign scene is so much bigger now then in broodwar, it would be stupid to ignore it. So I don't think at all that the korean sc2 and foreign scene's will split.
If, somehow, Korean scene doomsday prediction were to come true, all it would accomplish is kill the Korean scene, not the foreign one.
This isn't like 2002/2003. Foreign tournaments draw enormous numbers and it is us that are the odd balls for staying awake until early in the morning or late in the night to watch the Korean scene.
While they may be the best- Look at China. They have a vibrant and hugely talented SC2 community.
...
Can anyone name 5 Korean players? Okay, what about Chinese.
I understand that the situation in China and the Kespa scenario in SK are hugely different but it's the only example I could draw on to show what I'm saying- If restrictions are applied and the free tournament atmosphere is choked out by Kespa, all that will happen is Korean scene will wither. Korean pros already join western teams in pursuit of more opportunities. What would they do if Kespa made the GSL even less appealing?
I see what you're saying, but I highly doubt that will happen. GOM makes too much money off of the foreign fans. That's why they keep bringing in foreigners. Because the fans want to see foreigners vs. Koreans. Kespa would be stupid to deny people from watching an english casted stream. There are definitely more foreign fans watching than Korean ones.
Way too much has changed to act like things will go back to the way they were now that Kespa is getting involved.
The true barriers to foreigners have always been talent and the obvious culture/language barriers. Foreigners were simply never good enough barring the tiny few who even then were B team level if that 2005+. If talent is what frightens you about the upcoming changes to competitive SC2 in Korea I don't know what to say. If it frightens our players they should stay in NA. Kespa didn't stand in the way of foreigners realizing their dreams any more than they did fellow Koreans.
GOM's practices of giving out code A for foreign tournaments is a sham in itself. They don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts, or in the interest of competition. They do it for money. We alone have to pay to watch GOM broadcasts so they do everything in their power to ensure we have an incentive, like bringing over foreigners on a regular basis, or even handcrafting tournaments specifically for us to buy. If all that shit went away I think it would be for the better in the name of pure competition. But even still, it is financially worth pursuing for GOM so it will be for Kespa.
In addition the progaming landscape is entirely different now. We represented a very small percent of fans in the BW era. Our players represented a infinitesimally small percent of the talent in the world. Those have both changed with SC2. Appealing to foreigners is evidently lucrative in itself, GOM can attest to that. I sincerely doubt Kespa is going to simply turn a blind eye to these facts with zero consideration.
Sorry motbob, but what the fuck did I just read? This is so misinformed and anti-kespa that my head hurts. Why do you think they introduced the 2 free progamer licences per team? A lot of people think that it was to give PJ and LX licences when they were training on SKT. kespa haven't been putting up barriers to foreign sc, we were just too noob to get in. And I would also argue that there was more at work in the GOM league vs Kespa than kespa asserting their monopoly over the scene.
Well if KeSPA wants to shoot their self in the foot they can go ahead and decided to alienate the entire foreign population, which would cut into their ability to profit. Also there are currently MLG, IPL, NASL, Dreamhack, ESWC, and the ESL, so missing out on a single Korean tournament won't kill me even though they are considered the best.
I don't think it would happen that way, Kespa was sent to blizzcon to see how the west is doing in E-sports, why would they alienate that huge audience if one of the reasons they have been introduced to starcraft 2 was because of the west.
I believe the current SC2 team ( GOM, MLG, ESL, ESWC, IPL, and such) can take on KeSPA. I mean SC2 is getting so big at this point KeSPA might have to give in.
On October 29 2011 09:31 Plexa wrote: Sorry motbob, but what the fuck did I just read? This is so misinformed and anti-kespa that my head hurts. Why do you think they introduced the 2 free progamer licences per team? A lot of people think that it was to give PJ and LX licences when they were training on SKT. kespa haven't been putting up barriers to foreign sc, we were just too noob to get in. And I would also argue that there was more at work in the GOM league vs Kespa than kespa asserting their monopoly over the scene.
I dunno, I think that you might be misunderstanding my position towards Kespa. I don't think that Kespa are the "bad guys" or anything. The Korean scene might well have been better off with only OGN and MBC broadcasting games. It's probably a good policy (again, for the Korean scene) to restrict entry to individual leagues to only progamers with licenses. I definitely don't think that Kespa is trying to disadvantage foreigners by design.
But Kespa, OGN, and MBC have a long history of simply not caring about foreign spectators, while GOM has a history of trying to reach out to them. GOM's past actions continued with their excellent foreigner SC2 broadcasts. I don't think that Kespa/OGN will attempt to similarly gain foreign viewership, and I think they'll run GOM out of business by being a million times better then them.
I don't think that you can deny that it will be more difficult for foreigners to make it to Korea to practice under a traditional Kespa system than under the protections and benefits that GOM has offered. Similarly I can't see Kespa making a deal with MLG in the same vein of MLG's partenership with GOM.
This isn't really an anti-Kespa blog, I think. It's just a neutral prediction of what I think will happen. I would be perfectly happy with a purely Korean scene with awesome play and loud Korean commentary.
What a completely silly post. Kespa never did anything to hinder foreigners from competing in BW, they just had to qualify the same way as the Koreas. Which were never gonna happen since there wasn't a single foreigner that could compete with the koreans since like atleast pre 2005. As long as the top foreigners like Huk, Naniwa and Idra continues to practice as much as the koreans there is nothing about that this that would hurt them except more competition. All i'd guess it woudl do is keep semi serious foreigners from playing in Code-A which they don't desvere too anyways.
While the you're right about the Kespa vs Blizzard Legal Battle it isn't really relevant in Sc2. First off Blizzard has complete control over the Sc2 platform through B.net 2.0 which while i recon there are a few hacked LAN clients floating around i can't really see the likes of OGN trying to run a serious competition through those means. The sc2 scene in Korea is small and the money is actually hugely in the foreign sponsors/teams atm, even though i recon if the addition of the bw scene could give it a new bloom Kespa is a buisness they have always been looking at it from a buisness perspective. The current top korean teams is already integrated with alot of the top foreign teams and however much you wanna hype Flash and his likes, the top players for a good amount of time after a switch will still be Mvp,Nestea,Mma etc , and this alone gives those teams alot of power with regards to the status of Tourneys and Community relations. I could go on and on but even though there will obviously be alot of questions that will have to be adressed when a switch happens, this fear mongering is just stupid.
surely a huge difference overlooked in the original post in the amount of money in the foreign scene of sc2 compared to bw. korea may have big name sponsorships, but now so does the foreign scene. and with the might of blizzard more actively involved in promoting esports kespa has a real reason to give a shit.
kespa has been a dick in the past, but now if they want to grow as a company, get their players to an international market that they know already exists, they will need to play ball with everyone else. their closed market views on things really does make me kinda mad. imagine how bw could be in korea if they supported grass roots play and promoted their sport to the rest of the world. how much bigger could brood war of been? who knows, but now with sc2 we get to see that ESPORTS can be global and kespa has to take to note of this.
It's hard for me to see this happening. I'm sure players won't have as much say as to what happens, but with players like MKP overwhelmed by what foreigners will do just to see their favorites play, and all the Koreans who have came over to MLGs, Blizzcon, etc, it seems improbable that they would want to play in a league that didn't cater to foreign fans or players whatsoever. However, it seems like Kespa will have much more money, and people always lean towards the money.. Not to forget that Kespa will have an entire new crowd to the SC2 scene with all the BW teams switching over. I hope that Bisu, Jaedong, Jangbi, and Fantasy who came to Blizzcon really enjoyed the foreigners and the crowds, and would want to see the foreigners be able to watch their games with an English stream. But again, players seem like they would not even be involved in these decisions for the most part, and I doubt they would boycott.
On the other hand, when you think of sports like baseball, basketball, etc.. There are always different leagues for different countries. The difference in SC2 is that we have started out with the entire world mixing into different leagues, and like it (for the most part) how it is. I just hope for the best, and hope GOM and Kespa can co-exist, both offering English streams.
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
Yeah, but those are minimal. Of course the bar is raised in terms of standards of "high-level" play, but the exchange is more and we lose the english narrative that you were talking about and eventually we lose the key players we have now in terms of business people, companies and/or more players and thus the separation of players in Korea and Foreigners is strengthened.
Will this affect the mix 'n' match that we have going on now? Koreans on Foreign teams and vice-versa? If this separation does ensue, will new foreign blood begin to propser faster as they are given more opportunity given Koreans are back in their base and thus a void must be filled with potentially new players?
That's what I'm wondering.
Hmm, you say that that consideration is minimal but I don't agree. Remember: a lot of us veterans used to spend a great deal of time watching Korean BW with Korean commentary and loving every bit of it. The skill of the players made it all worth watching, and we didn't need an English voice telling us why we were enjoying ourselves. If SC2 were to both receive a massive infusion of talent and lose all English streams from Korea due to GOM's death, I would not complain too much.
The "key players" that we would lose would be replaced by Kespa. They would probably not have any interaction with the foreign community, but they would fulfill their job of strengthening the Korean esports scene well enough.
The mix 'n' match going on right now will be a non-factor whenever GOM becomes a non-factor. Do you really think that Kespa is going to bring eight-odd teams into its fold?
Yes, that may appeal to hardcore veterans or players, but what has made SC2 so big internationally this time around has been English casters, bringing tons of casual fans (the majority of the fans and players, the casual bronze-gold league players).
If there is a split in the broadcasting and only international tournaments get international exposure, the scene will be split anyway, and loses a lot of its international appeal (I can imagine far less non-Korean pros would go to Korea if they would get less international exposure. After all, their sponsors are outside of Korea with a few exceptions.)
I have many friends that watch SC2, mostly casual players, but I'm sure that if there were to be any form of split, less English streams, less non-Koreans at the top competing with Koreans... they wouldn't care anymore. Hell, I feel I'm a fairly hardcore sc2 stream viewer, and I would never, ever, watch a Korean stream without the likes of Tastosis etc.
I really pray Kespa will not play an important role in the SC2 scene in the years to come. I want what we have now, a hugely growing scene with great player, great tournaments with a lot of storylines (Idra vs MC f. ex) and players I can relate to.
No pro-license bullshit, absolutely anyone with talent can go in an open bracket and prove themselves or get scouted by a team. Are we getting the S-level games? Hm, hard to say. But I'd rather watch an A+ game between IdrA and Bomber, than an S-level game between Jaedong and Flash with only Korean commentaries and a more closed and split SC2 community.
I haven't thoroughly read the other posts here, so I don't know if I'll be repeating things said earlier; however: I don't think that Kespa will ever be able to regress back to days of BW simply because of how tight Blizzard controls Battle.net. Since every game must go through a server owned by Blizzard they can control who is allowed to play, and since Blizzard goes directly into tournaments were the prize money goes over 5000 USD, they have a lot more control than they had in BW.
Furthermore; the Koreans probably realize that there is a lot of prize money in the foreign scene, and although some of the BW pros have a lot more in salaries than those that play SC2, you cannot completely disregard the prize money. MC for instance made over 200 000 USD in prize money during his prime some time back.
I'm a bit wary however considering how things went before, but I'm positive that the change will be positive for everybody following eSports.
First, Korean players will now have a legitimate choice if they don't like a very hardline Kespa. If a guy like Huk can get a roughly ~80k/year salary, that represents an option for top tier Korean players that did not exist in BW.
The second is the international audience cannot be ignored. In BW there was no international scene to speak of, but despite all of Kespa's faults (which you outlined in your post) they are not stupid and they like money. International audiences represent growth and cash for them.
Both of these forces are out of Kespa's control and will put pressure on them. If your doomsday scenario were to occur, I would guarantee that we would see a big split among Korean players, some joining foreign teams, maybe even some of the top players joining foreign teams. This would be a disaster for Kespa.
I just don't think the OP has any idea how the world works... How can you ignore such a large market? The foreign scene for SC2 is like 1000x as big as the foreign scene for BW. The laws of the world dictate that this scene will be acknowledged and exploited. There is absolutely no way in hell that KESPA would ever simply shut out the foreign market for SC2.
It's absurd and stupid, wow. The OP must never read the real news or take any classes on real things.
There are many questions to be answered if Kespa starts SC2. They likely will not bring the GSL teams into their SC2 leage. Does that mean that Kespa will once again keep its players from playing in GOM leagues? Many Korean players right now attend MLG, Dreamhack, IEM etc. by having a foreign team they are partnered with foot the travel bill. Will Kespa allow players to travel the world to every major tournament as is the current state of SC2 tournaments? Even if they do, I find it hard to think that Korean telecommunication companies would be interested in paying for players to fly to the NA or EU to play as the people watching can not even purchase their product if they wanted to. That is not very effective advertising. More like a waste of money.
On October 29 2011 10:30 Snorkle wrote: There are many questions to be answered if Kespa starts SC2. They likely will not bring the GSL teams into their SC2 leage. Does that mean that Kespa will once again keep its players from playing in GOM leagues? Many Korean players right now attend MLG, Dreamhack, IEM etc. by having a foreign team they are partnered with foot the travel bill. Will Kespa allow players to travel the world to every major tournament as is the current state of SC2 tournaments? Even if they do, I find it hard to think that Korean telecommunication companies would be interested in paying for players to fly to the NA or EU to play as the people watching can not even purchase their product if they wanted to. That is not very effective advertising. More like a waste of money.
Who would be willing to pay? International companies. SC2 is bigger than Korea. This isn't BW. Fuck SK Telecom, man. Think bigger.
You know how many people were paid to travel around the world regularly to play BW? Pretty sure that answer is about zero.
You know how many people are paid to travel around the world regularly to play SC2? Dozens! At least!
On October 29 2011 10:17 jjhchsc2 wrote: hmmmm i am pretty sure flash won courage on his first try . great read!
He lost to Jangbi.
Q: You will meet Flash in the Round of 8. A: Flash is a player that after his debut, has been continuing to put out consistent results. He has received attention ever since he was a practice partner and has been reigning as the best player for over 5 years. But as for me, I have a positive momentum following me. I have an experience where I defeated Flash in the 2005 Courage Tournament finals and acquired qualification to become a semi-progamer.
Although I share your concerns to some extent, I do think the amount of money in the international scene will act as somewhat of a check on Kespa's ability to exercise the kind of monopolistic power it did in BW.
What the. It's not that Kespa is actively trying to hinder foreign gamers, it's simply that they're not on par in BW. How are they "anti-competitive" when they're rewarding good players pro-licenses in a tournament format? It's the ultimate objective measure. Win the damn thing and be a pro, not win it and stay an amateur. The OGN dual league is the perfect proof. Every amateur that qualified via the amateur bracket got smashed by the pros, the games were unspectacular, and the whole thing turned out to be a waste of time.
I'm getting confused about the whole debacle between KesPA and GOM intel classic. KesPA didn't forbid the teams from participating in Intel Classic s3, the teams themselves chose not to participate (notably OGN and MBC because they are the starcraft channels, after all). KeSPA sanctioned the event. GOM then folded because of the lack of interest. I'm not connecting the dots of Kespa killing intel classic and isolating the foreign community.
To be fair I don't think Gom will die at this point. Maybe if this news came out like 5 months ago, but I think that they have a big enough foreign following to continue. I hope so anyway,
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
Yeah, but those are minimal. Of course the bar is raised in terms of standards of "high-level" play, but the exchange is more and we lose the english narrative that you were talking about and eventually we lose the key players we have now in terms of business people, companies and/or more players and thus the separation of players in Korea and Foreigners is strengthened.
Will this affect the mix 'n' match that we have going on now? Koreans on Foreign teams and vice-versa? If this separation does ensue, will new foreign blood begin to propser faster as they are given more opportunity given Koreans are back in their base and thus a void must be filled with potentially new players?
That's what I'm wondering.
Hmm, you say that that consideration is minimal but I don't agree. Remember: a lot of us veterans used to spend a great deal of time watching Korean BW with Korean commentary and loving every bit of it. The skill of the players made it all worth watching, and we didn't need an English voice telling us why we were enjoying ourselves. If SC2 were to both receive a massive infusion of talent and lose all English streams from Korea due to GOM's death, I would not complain too much.
The "key players" that we would lose would be replaced by Kespa. They would probably not have any interaction with the foreign community, but they would fulfill their job of strengthening the Korean esports scene well enough.
The mix 'n' match going on right now will be a non-factor whenever GOM becomes a non-factor. Do you really think that Kespa is going to bring eight-odd teams into its fold?
Yes, that may appeal to hardcore veterans or players, but what has made SC2 so big internationally this time around has been English casters, bringing tons of casual fans (the majority of the fans and players, the casual bronze-gold league players).
If there is a split in the broadcasting and only international tournaments get international exposure, the scene will be split anyway, and loses a lot of its international appeal (I can imagine far less non-Korean pros would go to Korea if they would get less international exposure. After all, their sponsors are outside of Korea with a few exceptions.)
I have many friends that watch SC2, mostly casual players, but I'm sure that if there were to be any form of split, less English streams, less non-Koreans at the top competing with Koreans... they wouldn't care anymore. Hell, I feel I'm a fairly hardcore sc2 stream viewer, and I would never, ever, watch a Korean stream without the likes of Tastosis etc.
I really pray Kespa will not play an important role in the SC2 scene in the years to come. I want what we have now, a hugely growing scene with great player, great tournaments with a lot of storylines (Idra vs MC f. ex) and players I can relate to.
No pro-license bullshit, absolutely anyone with talent can go in an open bracket and prove themselves or get scouted by a team. Are we getting the S-level games? Hm, hard to say. But I'd rather watch an A+ game between IdrA and Bomber, than an S-level game between Jaedong and Flash with only Korean commentaries and a more closed and split SC2 community.
Don't you understand what is happening in games without a caster telling you how everything is epic and amazing?
As many people have said anyway this topic is kinda weird, it's basically criticizing KeSPA for not making handicaps for foreign players and apparently courage and other things being a result of xenophobia. Which i think is totally wrong.
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
Yeah, but those are minimal. Of course the bar is raised in terms of standards of "high-level" play, but the exchange is more and we lose the english narrative that you were talking about and eventually we lose the key players we have now in terms of business people, companies and/or more players and thus the separation of players in Korea and Foreigners is strengthened.
Will this affect the mix 'n' match that we have going on now? Koreans on Foreign teams and vice-versa? If this separation does ensue, will new foreign blood begin to propser faster as they are given more opportunity given Koreans are back in their base and thus a void must be filled with potentially new players?
That's what I'm wondering.
Hmm, you say that that consideration is minimal but I don't agree. Remember: a lot of us veterans used to spend a great deal of time watching Korean BW with Korean commentary and loving every bit of it. The skill of the players made it all worth watching, and we didn't need an English voice telling us why we were enjoying ourselves. If SC2 were to both receive a massive infusion of talent and lose all English streams from Korea due to GOM's death, I would not complain too much.
The "key players" that we would lose would be replaced by Kespa. They would probably not have any interaction with the foreign community, but they would fulfill their job of strengthening the Korean esports scene well enough.
The mix 'n' match going on right now will be a non-factor whenever GOM becomes a non-factor. Do you really think that Kespa is going to bring eight-odd teams into its fold?
Yes, that may appeal to hardcore veterans or players, but what has made SC2 so big internationally this time around has been English casters, bringing tons of casual fans (the majority of the fans and players, the casual bronze-gold league players).
If there is a split in the broadcasting and only international tournaments get international exposure, the scene will be split anyway, and loses a lot of its international appeal (I can imagine far less non-Korean pros would go to Korea if they would get less international exposure. After all, their sponsors are outside of Korea with a few exceptions.)
I have many friends that watch SC2, mostly casual players, but I'm sure that if there were to be any form of split, less English streams, less non-Koreans at the top competing with Koreans... they wouldn't care anymore. Hell, I feel I'm a fairly hardcore sc2 stream viewer, and I would never, ever, watch a Korean stream without the likes of Tastosis etc.
I really pray Kespa will not play an important role in the SC2 scene in the years to come. I want what we have now, a hugely growing scene with great player, great tournaments with a lot of storylines (Idra vs MC f. ex) and players I can relate to.
No pro-license bullshit, absolutely anyone with talent can go in an open bracket and prove themselves or get scouted by a team. Are we getting the S-level games? Hm, hard to say. But I'd rather watch an A+ game between IdrA and Bomber, than an S-level game between Jaedong and Flash with only Korean commentaries and a more closed and split SC2 community.
Don't you understand what is happening in games without a caster telling you how everything is epic and amazing?
Some of you guys just go to such lengths to show exactly how far in the hardcore niche you are.
I don't even watch most of my SC2; I listen to it out of one ear.
I'm not even concerned about Kespa not giving foreigners free rides into tourneys like GSL does. I appreciate GSL for catering to foreigners, as a gesture it is a postive one and its surely great PR (it does more good than it does bad). But for me it's not required, and to expect anyone to bend over for foreigners and put their needs above their own countrymen is pretty crazy.
What does scare me is the thought that i will have to watch kespa run events to see the best play. My moral code won't allow me to do that until the P is put back into Kespa.
I don't consider myself hardcore i just can see what happens in the games.. seeing the play is the entertaining part. I can watch a replay and be entertained. I can watch a Korean cast and be entertained even more; with the help of solely the atmosphere. To be honest every 'professional' English caster i've heard actually grates on me; over-used terms, exaggeration constantly, not willing to call a blatantly won game, in some cases lack of knowledge and horrible calls on the play. It feels fake.
Edit: and i agree with the post on this page about the GOM Classic being a teams choice not to be involved... the schedule of the MSL/OSL/Proleague alone affects players performances very clearly. It was just never needed. People seem to have a seriously manufactured outrage against KeSPA on here, including people who were not even around before 2010. The main issue from BW fans was simply some harsh rules which allowed some games where players got disqualified. Now it was silly, but they were the decided rules and the referee at the time made the decisions. From those now the KeSPA myth has got into ridiculous evil empire levels; most people still don't even understand how the organization is made up of the sponsors and not a totally separate entity. People keep going on about them being greedy and solely trying to make money when it's a non-profit organization. Now a staff member makes a post like this and it's pretty much misleading and making the myth even worse.
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
Yeah, but those are minimal. Of course the bar is raised in terms of standards of "high-level" play, but the exchange is more and we lose the english narrative that you were talking about and eventually we lose the key players we have now in terms of business people, companies and/or more players and thus the separation of players in Korea and Foreigners is strengthened.
Will this affect the mix 'n' match that we have going on now? Koreans on Foreign teams and vice-versa? If this separation does ensue, will new foreign blood begin to propser faster as they are given more opportunity given Koreans are back in their base and thus a void must be filled with potentially new players?
That's what I'm wondering.
Hmm, you say that that consideration is minimal but I don't agree. Remember: a lot of us veterans used to spend a great deal of time watching Korean BW with Korean commentary and loving every bit of it. The skill of the players made it all worth watching, and we didn't need an English voice telling us why we were enjoying ourselves. If SC2 were to both receive a massive infusion of talent and lose all English streams from Korea due to GOM's death, I would not complain too much.
The "key players" that we would lose would be replaced by Kespa. They would probably not have any interaction with the foreign community, but they would fulfill their job of strengthening the Korean esports scene well enough.
The mix 'n' match going on right now will be a non-factor whenever GOM becomes a non-factor. Do you really think that Kespa is going to bring eight-odd teams into its fold?
Yes, that may appeal to hardcore veterans or players, but what has made SC2 so big internationally this time around has been English casters, bringing tons of casual fans (the majority of the fans and players, the casual bronze-gold league players).
If there is a split in the broadcasting and only international tournaments get international exposure, the scene will be split anyway, and loses a lot of its international appeal (I can imagine far less non-Korean pros would go to Korea if they would get less international exposure. After all, their sponsors are outside of Korea with a few exceptions.)
I have many friends that watch SC2, mostly casual players, but I'm sure that if there were to be any form of split, less English streams, less non-Koreans at the top competing with Koreans... they wouldn't care anymore. Hell, I feel I'm a fairly hardcore sc2 stream viewer, and I would never, ever, watch a Korean stream without the likes of Tastosis etc.
I really pray Kespa will not play an important role in the SC2 scene in the years to come. I want what we have now, a hugely growing scene with great player, great tournaments with a lot of storylines (Idra vs MC f. ex) and players I can relate to.
No pro-license bullshit, absolutely anyone with talent can go in an open bracket and prove themselves or get scouted by a team. Are we getting the S-level games? Hm, hard to say. But I'd rather watch an A+ game between IdrA and Bomber, than an S-level game between Jaedong and Flash with only Korean commentaries and a more closed and split SC2 community.
Don't you understand what is happening in games without a caster telling you how everything is epic and amazing?
As many people have said anyway this topic is kinda weird, it's basically criticizing KeSPA for not making handicaps for foreign players and apparently courage and other things being a result of xenophobia. Which i think is totally wrong.
Of course I do. I would still find it far, far less entertaining though, like watching football without commentary (only exception being being live at the actual stadium with 100,000 other fans, but how often can I do that?)
On October 29 2011 09:31 Plexa wrote: Sorry motbob, but what the fuck did I just read? This is so misinformed and anti-kespa that my head hurts. Why do you think they introduced the 2 free progamer licences per team? A lot of people think that it was to give PJ and LX licences when they were training on SKT. kespa haven't been putting up barriers to foreign sc, we were just too noob to get in. And I would also argue that there was more at work in the GOM league vs Kespa than kespa asserting their monopoly over the scene.
I dunno, I think that you might be misunderstanding my position towards Kespa. I don't think that Kespa are the "bad guys" or anything. The Korean scene might well have been better off with only OGN and MBC broadcasting games. It's probably a good policy (again, for the Korean scene) to restrict entry to individual leagues to only progamers with licenses. I definitely don't think that Kespa is trying to disadvantage foreigners by design.
But Kespa, OGN, and MBC have a long history of simply not caring about foreign spectators, while GOM has a history of trying to reach out to them. GOM's past actions continued with their excellent foreigner SC2 broadcasts. I don't think that Kespa/OGN will attempt to similarly gain foreign viewership, and I think they'll run GOM out of business by being a million times better then them.
I don't think that you can deny that it will be more difficult for foreigners to make it to Korea to practice under a traditional Kespa system than under the protections and benefits that GOM has offered. Similarly I can't see Kespa making a deal with MLG in the same vein of MLG's partenership with GOM.
This isn't really an anti-Kespa blog, I think. It's just a neutral prediction of what I think will happen. I would be perfectly happy with a purely Korean scene with awesome play and loud Korean commentary.
Afaik, GOM were taking a loss on the Classic seasons by catering to foreign audiences. It just wasn't a profitable venture. I think OGN/MBC had a different goal in setting up their leagues. For starters, there was no esports industry when they started and they did the pioneering work to get things sustainable. That meant finding sponsors that catered to their korean audience - and as such focused on trying to be sustainable. After all, OGN always streamed content from WCG afaik even when xellos/silent_control were eliminated ^^. I wouldn't say that they were anti-foreigner rather that it was a unprofitable venture. Afaik, OGN milked the foreigner presence in the early days of BW as well (e.g. Grrr and Elky).
GOM's MLG seed is basically a way for Code S players who fell to Code B to get back in the easy way. Just look at who they have sent out each season.
This kinda reminds me of the beginnings of the NFL. There used to be 2 leagues: the NFL and the AFL and it was a big deal when a good player signed with one league or the other. Eventually this lead to what we have now with the Superbowl which pits the AFC champion against the NFC champion. Imagine if GOM and Kespa had a separate stable of teams, players and events. With foreign money, I could see a team on GOM's side buying a big name BW player.
So far I haven't read any opinions supporting the OPs, I don't know motbob I'm just going to say this blog was definitely a little bit out there and extreme in its opinion and message despite you claiming it to be neutral.
On October 29 2011 09:31 Plexa wrote: Sorry motbob, but what the fuck did I just read? This is so misinformed and anti-kespa that my head hurts. Why do you think they introduced the 2 free progamer licences per team? A lot of people think that it was to give PJ and LX licences when they were training on SKT. kespa haven't been putting up barriers to foreign sc, we were just too noob to get in. And I would also argue that there was more at work in the GOM league vs Kespa than kespa asserting their monopoly over the scene.
I dunno, I think that you might be misunderstanding my position towards Kespa. I don't think that Kespa are the "bad guys" or anything. The Korean scene might well have been better off with only OGN and MBC broadcasting games. It's probably a good policy (again, for the Korean scene) to restrict entry to individual leagues to only progamers with licenses. I definitely don't think that Kespa is trying to disadvantage foreigners by design.
But Kespa, OGN, and MBC have a long history of simply not caring about foreign spectators, while GOM has a history of trying to reach out to them. GOM's past actions continued with their excellent foreigner SC2 broadcasts. I don't think that Kespa/OGN will attempt to similarly gain foreign viewership, and I think they'll run GOM out of business by being a million times better then them.
I don't think that you can deny that it will be more difficult for foreigners to make it to Korea to practice under a traditional Kespa system than under the protections and benefits that GOM has offered. Similarly I can't see Kespa making a deal with MLG in the same vein of MLG's partenership with GOM.
This isn't really an anti-Kespa blog, I think. It's just a neutral prediction of what I think will happen. I would be perfectly happy with a purely Korean scene with awesome play and loud Korean commentary.
Afaik, GOM were taking a loss on the Classic seasons by catering to foreign audiences. It just wasn't a profitable venture. I think OGN/MBC had a different goal in setting up their leagues. For starters, there was no esports industry when they started and they did the pioneering work to get things sustainable. That meant finding sponsors that catered to their korean audience - and as such focused on trying to be sustainable. After all, OGN always streamed content from WCG afaik even when xellos/silent_control were eliminated ^^. I wouldn't say that they were anti-foreigner rather that it was a unprofitable venture. Afaik, OGN milked the foreigner presence in the early days of BW as well (e.g. Grrr and Elky).
You keep using terms like "anti-foreigner" but that term has connotations that I'm not trying to convey. Once again, I don't think that OGN/MBC are intentionally pursuing an anti-foreigner policy. You mentioned that OGN/MBC pursued Korean sponsors exclusively. In my opinion, that's the best business model for growing a Korean esports scene. That strategy has brought Kespa/OGN/MBC success in the past. That strategy will probably bring Kespa/OGN/MBC success in the future. I'm just looking at what has happened in the past and I'm trying to use it to make predictions. I predict that Kespa/OGN will exclusively pursue sponsors focused on the Korean market.
Perhaps the situation has changed. Perhaps the foreign success of SC2 will make Kespa/OGN change their sponsor strategy. I don't know for sure.
Another great point in this thread has been the fact that, since SC2 doesn't have LAN, Blizzard basically has authoritarian control over SC2 leagues and can shut down unauthorized ones if they wish. I honestly hadn't considered that at all.
On October 29 2011 11:19 adeezy wrote: So far I haven't read any opinions supporting the OPs, I don't know motbob I'm just going to say this blog was definitely a little bit out there and extreme in its opinion and message despite you claiming it to be neutral.
I'm looking over my OP and it seems as if, yeah, I'm using a lot of loaded language when talking about Kespa. People generally interpret "anti-competitive" practices to be a bad thing, yes? I'll probably go back and revise some stuff later.
I'm really worried Kespa will do something like keep their players from going to foreign tournaments or somehow push GOM out of SC2. Hopefully though they see the international market and how much GOM has built up SC2 and stop being selfish, racist dicks this time.
Even if they are better this time around, I find it hard to believe Kespa will ever be as friendly to foreigners as GOM has been. I mean GOM has a house dedicated to housing foreign players/casters who visit korea, they pay for foreigner's travel, they give spots in code A to foreigners without going through code B, flew in and hosted a whole bunch of foreigners at once for a world vs korea tournament, etc. The thought of kespa doing all that almost makes me giggle, it'd be so bizarre compared to their past policies.
On October 29 2011 10:29 suejak wrote: I just don't think the OP has any idea how the world works... How can you ignore such a large market? The foreign scene for SC2 is like 1000x as big as the foreign scene for BW. The laws of the world dictate that this scene will be acknowledged and exploited. There is absolutely no way in hell that KESPA would ever simply shut out the foreign market for SC2.
It's absurd and stupid, wow. The OP must never read the real news or take any classes on real things.
to be fair, even if i disagree with his assessment, he's basing it on past experiences
what i think motbob is missing, is two things
first, that at the time of the first gom tournament, the starcraft fanbase consisted of essentially a teamliquid 1/10th the size it is now, a couple stragglers from youtube, and not a whole lot else
with the release of sc2, you have all the halo kids who have been exposed by mlg, you have some but not all of the warcraft 3 players on board, and so on - overall exposure to starcraft is a lot higher than it was at the time
furthermore, as i said earlier in the thread (which was curiously ignored by everyone) now that mbc is out of commission, ongamenet is the only starcraft league left standing. when gom tried to run their bw league, the market was oversaturated, but not only is there now there is a clear vacuum of power in korean starcraft, gom's holding the cards with sc2
so while i see where's hes coming from, i think he's missing the big picture...things are a lot different now than they were a few years ago. at the end of the day, it's about the money, and pleasing the sponsors is how you get that - and for whatever reason, three individual leagues is too many for the sponsors, but one league isn't enough
Blizzard controls Starcraft 2. No LAN means KeSPA can't just start up a tournament without their permission. If KeSPA starts to kill relationships with the foreign scene, don't set up english streams, and what not, Blizzard could theoretically step in and say "Hey, that's not cool guys."
No LAN in the game is the best thing Blizzard did to prevent situations like the one that happened in BW. All the power is in Blizzard's corner.
Interesting article, but I just don't see this happening. Yes, Kespa killed Gom back in 2008, but the situation was way different back then.
1) Kespa leagues were already firmly established 2) Gom was basically "borrowing" Kespa players for their tournament 3) Gom lacked the backing that it has today
But in 2011, Gom has already established the GSL as the premier SC2 league in the world. The production quality is really high. The player quality is really high, and these players are no longer in any way affiliated with Kespa. And more importantly, Gom is now backed by Gretech, and by extension, Blizzard. If Kespa wants to just blast Gom out of the water then it's gonna take a shit-ton of money. Yes, we all know about the elephant in the room, but I find it hard to believe that a lot of high level BW players playing SC2 under Kespa is suddenly gonna bring about the end of Gom. If Kespa leagues really are going to overtake Gom, then 1) it's gonna take a long time and 2) it's gonna take nothing short of the big 4 to do it. As amazing as something like Leta vs Zero in SC2 would be, without the big 4 I don't think they'll be able to offer anything significantly different from what Gom is already offering us now. At the moment we don't even have confirmation that any of the "big names" are switching, so to predict Gom's demise seems kind of premature to me.
If Kespa does end up being as inflexible as predicted, then I think the Korean scene is more likely to split into two parts. By the time Kespa gets anything up and running, Gom will already be too well-established to just die out. If Kespa only allows Kespa players in their leagues, and stops their players from competing in other leagues, then we'll end up with a split. Kespa players/leagues on one side and GSL players/leagues on the other side.
In essence, the two scenes won't meet very often, which would fuel a lot of discussion about which is better (I assume most people would pick the Kespa scene to be stronger). If anything, this would only bring even more excitement into the scene, because every time the GSL/Kespa players clash at foreign tournaments or WCG or something, everyone will be eagerly waiting to judge their relative strengths. I don't necessarily see this situation as ideal, but I think it's far more plausible than Gom just rolling over and dying because Kespa decided to compete with them.
If KeSPA aren't stupid, they won't shoot themselves in the feet.
For one, I don't see how their breaking into SC2, even if they do get as restrictive and tyrannical as they are in BW, is really going to affect the foreigner scene - the cool thing about the foreigner scene is that it is now finally large enough to be autonomous. No, it doesn't have the highest level of play by any means, but it has the audience, by far. Blizzard brought BW players to Blizzcon not to play showmatches, but to show top Korean players just how big of a market there was for this stuff outside of Korea. Even if KeSPA starts pulling punches and kneecaps foreigners from breaking into Korea, then, well, we're going to see a division of the scenes (greater than there already is) and that's OK, because they'll both be doing their own thing.
On top of that, they're capitalists. Big western audiences = big money. They want that money. They will do what it takes to get that money, and that means bringing foreign viewers a good viewing experience.
The SC2 scene isn't entirely like BW though. Simply, the fan base, community, and tournaments outside of Korea are far larger than they were in BW for foreigners. Even if Korea were to isolate itself from the rest of the world, SC2 will continue. Sure if this were to happen, GSL would be gone, but most of the casual fans, which I expect outnumber the dedicated fans, only watch MLGs and other foreign tournaments which are free and come on at a reasonable time.
Anyway, the sponsors are different. Foreign teams have sponsors that target foreign viewers, and Korean teams have sponsors that target Korean viewers. It makes sense that the two don't have to mix.
It would actually be pretty cool to have separate tournaments in every region with a few tournaments like Blizzcon or WCG where the best of each region dukes it out. SC2 has been missing a "World Champion" type title.
It would seem dumb of KESPA to not appreciate the huge foreign scene at all. English cast for their sc2 tournament definately should be worth the salaries right? I don't see why foreigners should get any other benefits such as code A spots though, it's a bit cheesy as it is. But completely abandoning foreigners doesn't seem beneficial for any party.
Great writeup, it was very informative for a lot of us SC2 fans that don't know much about KESPA and their dominance of the BW scene. After reading many of the comments thought I honestly don't feel that there is anything to be worried about considering Blizzard's dominance over their game right now, especially since there is no LAN.
I am greatly looking forward to have another high quality tournament to keep my eye on, and it will be interesting to see if they will cater to the gigantic foreigner scene...it would be terrible if they didn't.
Considering money flowing in the foreign scene the described scenario seems very unprobable. If Kespa will concentrate only on Korean scene then the only thing they will probably achieve is to split the Korean scene itself as a bunch of players will choose to participate rather in foreign tournaments and GSL instead of Kespa sanctioned tournaments.
To be honest, I don't mind if KesPA sanction a very stringent and tough path into their leagues (like the old Courage tournaments of old). Only the very best and dedicated will make it into this top, top tier.
Sure it might stagnate the growth a little of the top foreigners at the moment by blocking 'easy' access to Code A and Code S (via foreign competitions) but I don't believe its necessarily a 'bad' thing. Also, the context of this situation is very different as it were in BW. The foreign scene is immensely powerful, the players will prove themselves and the spectators will continue to flock. MLG/Dreamhack etc really shouldn't be hurt by any moves by KesPA IMHO.
Let's just remember: Gretech have exclusive rights to broadcast SC2 at the moment in Korea, they have the greatest influence as to what eventually happens to all these players. Whether KesPA like it or not, they'll have to move to SC2 eventually.. BW cannot be financially sustainable in the next year or two (due to sponsorships beginning to make their way to SC2).
edit: Blizzard aren't minor players in this either, they won't want their scene being hurt by any monopolistic attempts KesPA make.
SC2 and SCBW are two completely different monster. Kespa ignored foreign scene in BW because there wasn't much of a "scene" to begin with. Where as with SC2, there is a very solid foreign scene that Kespa can use to grow a scene in Korea (Hey look, the world is playing this game!) as well as contributing to scene outside of Korea (JD/Bisu/Jangbi/fantasy visiting blizzcon).
Also as long as Gretech holds the right to broadcast SC2 in Korea, we have someone that's check-and-balancing KesPA from monopolizing the scene the way they did in BW.
On October 29 2011 12:36 Nayl wrote: This just seem like fear mongering.
SC2 and SCBW are two completely different monster. Kespa ignored foreign scene in BW because there wasn't much of a "scene" to begin with. Where as with SC2, there is a very solid foreign scene that Kespa can use to grow a scene in Korea (Hey look, the world is playing this game!) as well as contributing to scene outside of Korea (JD/Bisu/Jangbi/fantasy visiting blizzcon).
Also as long as Gretech holds the right to broadcast SC2 in Korea, we have someone that's check-and-balancing KesPA from monopolizing the scene the way they did in BW.
In spite of me being a massive BW fanboy and feeling that SC2 is strictly 'meh', I can't help but think that it would be best for all SC players to be united under one banner (game). I'd love to have all BW pros migrate to SC2 and see what they can make of it. Push this game to its theoretical limits. The 'scene' may suffer if Kespa somehow manages to muscle out the rest of the world (highly unlikely IMO) but the gameplay will be better than ever.
On October 29 2011 11:07 epik640x wrote: Who cares, everyone in SC2 currently sucks. We want to see the real pros.
User was temp banned for this post.
While he didn't say this as elegantly as he could have this is pretty much true... The BW players switching over should blow these B teamers away. I am really really excited to see what is to come.
The one thing I really don't understand about KeSPA is how they became the gatekeepers between sponsors and players. Its a mystifying situation for which I really can't see any equivalents - especially considering that KeSPA isn't essentially an ancillary organization to the BW scene.
I don't think that there'll necessarily be the same situation as with BW. There's a huge amount of interest from the foreign community - and more significantly theres a HUGE amount if MONEY from the foreign community. EG, fnatic, Liquid, and other foreign teams already sponsor top Korean players. SlayerS has their own sponsorship, and both IM and MvP have deals with foreign teams (Quantic and coL), and I believe get funding from them (I could be wrong on this).
If KeSPA doesn't control the purse strings I don't think they'll be able to control the sc2 scene, unless the sc2 teams all decide to cooperate. Considering that many of them were started and organized by people who joined sc2 specifically because it didn't have all of KeSPA's rules etc I don't think this likely.
I'm curious, has KeSPA ever been involved in the WarCraft III scene? I've always though that war3 is a much better example for the sc2 scene than BW (yeah Koreans are the best but theres a vibrant global scene with top foreigners who are able to compete). I'd be curious to know whether kespa was involved with war3 'cause that'd be a much better example for how they'd be involved in sc2 than their involvement in BW.
motbob makes a great point: this doesn't mean the foreign scene dies but it means that it will no longer interact with the Korean scene, which is what's making starcraft II so interesting at the moment.
I question whether KESPA will be able to play as heavy-handidly as they did in BW, largely due to Blizzard denying LAN, although I don't think GOM will be much of an issue for them to tackle. I can't see GOM being able to stand up in any kind of fight against KESPA for control over SC2 broadcasting rights, KESPA is simply too strong.
It will be interesting, if this all goes through, to see whether the foreign scene will be able to pick it up and compete with the Koreans. Maybe this will be the impetus needed; or it could just result in a subpar foreign scene that has no interaction with the Korean one.
On October 29 2011 12:36 Nayl wrote: This just seem like fear mongering.
SC2 and SCBW are two completely different monster. Kespa ignored foreign scene in BW because there wasn't much of a "scene" to begin with. Where as with SC2, there is a very solid foreign scene that Kespa can use to grow a scene in Korea (Hey look, the world is playing this game!) as well as contributing to scene outside of Korea (JD/Bisu/Jangbi/fantasy visiting blizzcon).
Also as long as Gretech holds the right to broadcast SC2 in Korea, we have someone that's check-and-balancing KesPA from monopolizing the scene the way they did in BW.
It stupid to even consider it monopolizing. You wouldn't say FIFA is monopolizing football. It's just attempting to be an official body for eSports there. Not sure why people are so comfortable with Gretech, a business that exists to make a profit (and is just under the total whim of Blizzard anyway), controlling the SC2 scene more than KeSPA. Not to say they wouldn't monetize their tournaments in a similar way but least the money is supposed to all go back into funding the whole scene.
I'd be more worried about Blizzard's total control than anything else. Not only taking a cut of revenue despite it being free promotion, which is lame in the first place. Relocating the GSL finals to Blizzcon, while it was maybe a good move for the foreign scene how do Korean's feel about their primary tournament being halfway across the world? Their actions there already seem to annoy a lot of people since the launch.
On October 29 2011 13:00 Treadmill wrote: The one thing I really don't understand about KeSPA is how they became the gatekeepers between sponsors and players. Its a mystifying situation for which I really can't see any equivalents - especially considering that KeSPA isn't essentially an ancillary organization to the BW scene.
KeSPA are the sponsors.. it's made up from representatives of the various sponsors.
I think things won't stay this way forever. And as long as we can still see entertaining, high level games, I'll be happy, no matter who's participating.
As much as OSL/WCG crap in the face of gomtv's tiny little studio and flaunt their superior production and experience, I think that gomtv has a really good image for being interactive and co-operative with their international audience. It wasnt that long ago that we had english interviews with players and english observers, something that would probably never happen in an osl. We've also had subs for yellow's series and a huge drive to have foreign teams/players in gstl/gsl and a world championship and blizzard cup. I dont think that winning a mlg would ever berth you into an osl but we see a real will to to improve the league, whether it is by fixing the format, changing maps, changing broadcast schedules... anything! You can comfortably say that Mr Chae is trying really hard to make it a Global starleague and reach out from korea to the world. Something that kespa hasnt really done.
I want english streams still, i hope kespa finds out that a bulk of sc2 populairty come from outside of korea and in turn cash in on that oppourtunity. Hopefully blizzard will have a hand in negotiations
Gom only goes for Foreigners cause no one in korea gives a fuck about Gom.
oh and "Kespa Forced them out of Gom Leagues?" i mean just 2 weeks ago there was the poll with "how much Broodwar in a week" and players opinions. and they all said it was 2 much right now. and then people still want a 3rd league? while 2 were already freaking 2 much?.
the players didnt care abotu the gom league they didnt even practice for it so they pulled out in the end.
@infinity2k9 - I think people, including myself, are comfortable with Gretech, aka GOM, running SC2 in Korea because we've seen how open GOM has been in promoting global esports: the league exchange program through MLG, allowing foreign players a place to stay at the GOM house, no license requirements, etc.
Regarding the relocation of this past GSL finals to Blizzcon: I'm sure GOM was the one interested in doing that, not Blizzard forcing them to play @ Blizzcon. I don't think the viewership numbers are public, but I can guess that this past GSL finals was probably really high up there in views.
Regarding KESPA, as many have mentioned we will need to see how both Blizz and Gretech handles the broadcasting license issue that would surely arise. Personally, I just don't think KESPA would have such strict entry requirements once everything becomes mobilized into SC2. The game right now is too big on a global scale, and it will only get bigger.
On October 29 2011 11:32 Cataphract wrote: Blizzard controls Starcraft 2. No LAN means KeSPA can't just start up a tournament without their permission. If KeSPA starts to kill relationships with the foreign scene, don't set up english streams, and what not, Blizzard could theoretically step in and say "Hey, that's not cool guys."
No LAN in the game is the best thing Blizzard did to prevent situations like the one that happened in BW. All the power is in Blizzard's corner.
You act like blizzard has all the power and 100% complete control. There is a reason bliz invited BW pros to blizzcon. They want what kespa has. Top players. Blizzard wants kespa to switch to SC2 because it will increase the popularity of their game. If blizzard doesn't allow kespa some freedom to run things how they want, they will just keep playing BW.
People in here are acting like kespa is begging blizzard to let them broadcast SC2 and they are going to have to bend over backwards to every little blizzard command.
What would KESPA have against foreign fans/players? That part isn't explained anywhere. The fact that it shunned English casting in BW doesn't prove anything. SC2 popularity outside of Korea far exceeds that of BW, so to turn away the foreign market would be giving up potential profit. Some of you guys have weird conceptions of how business works.
Why couldn't the foreign scene just continue? It might slow down, but I doubt I'm alone in that I'd have no problem watching foreigner only tournaments especially if there's some monopoly that makes the only broadcasts out of Korea in Korean only.
With all this hullabaloo and excitement about The Old Ones coming people haven't been mentioning this very important point. Glad someone else has been thinking the same thing I have. I really hope everything works out because Blizzard actually has a say this time. I think either Kespa's gotta go or drastically change from what it was in BW. Someone spotlight this please? It's a very important point that I don't see being discussed enough.
nice, if foreigners can't keep up by their own merit, then good riddance. and korean commentary is way better than english, sorry, so good riddance to that too.
I will hold out hope for kespa. Afterall they are a business, they have to know of Gomtv's great foreigner ratings. Not allowing foreigners to play would definitely hurt them.
On October 29 2011 15:54 GuiltyJerk wrote: Why couldn't the foreign scene just continue? It might slow down, but I doubt I'm alone in that I'd have no problem watching foreigner only tournaments especially if there's some monopoly that makes the only broadcasts out of Korea in Korean only.
this is what happened in BW. it was shitty for the foreign scene, as you can see by the fact that everyone switched to sc2 when it came out.
On October 29 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: What would KESPA have against foreign fans/players? That part isn't explained anywhere. The fact that it shunned English casting in BW doesn't prove anything. SC2 popularity outside of Korea far exceeds that of BW, so to turn away the foreign market would be giving up potential profit. Some of you guys have weird conceptions of how business works.
They don't have anything against foreigners at all. Once again, KeSPA represents the sponsors funding the league. GOM goes out of its way because their product is consumed globally. They have a foreigner house, Code A spots for foreigners, and English casting for its primary consumers, which happen to speak English.
Why would companies such as SK-Telecom and Hwaseung, Hite, Lecaf, etc. have any interest in a foreign market when their products are only consumed in Korea?
Why would a Korean bank, a Korean cell-phone company, a Korean beer company, etc... want to set up English casting for their Starcraft league, when their consumers and target audience are 99% Korean? There is no way a Korean corporation is stupid enough to invest money in English casting if their products are only consumed by Koreans. If you want to see English casting, it would have to be approved by KeSPA and be funded by a different source (such as Blizzard).
Think about it. If you are a corporation that makes products that can only be consumed in a single country, why would you waste funding and advertising money to cater to anyone outside of said country? Why should they treat foreign progamers any differently from Korean progamers (in terms of Code-A spots, separate training house, etc)?
Unless you have global corporations that are willing to invest millions of dollars to sponsor professional Starcraft teams in Korea, the system will stay in place. I don't know, maybe McDonald's or Coca-Cola or Pepsi can be convinced to fund the teams to improve their reputations in a niche market? One can only hope.
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
Yeah, but those are minimal. Of course the bar is raised in terms of standards of "high-level" play, but the exchange is more and we lose the english narrative that you were talking about and eventually we lose the key players we have now in terms of business people, companies and/or more players and thus the separation of players in Korea and Foreigners is strengthened.
Will this affect the mix 'n' match that we have going on now? Koreans on Foreign teams and vice-versa? If this separation does ensue, will new foreign blood begin to propser faster as they are given more opportunity given Koreans are back in their base and thus a void must be filled with potentially new players?
That's what I'm wondering.
Hmm, you say that that consideration is minimal but I don't agree. Remember: a lot of us veterans used to spend a great deal of time watching Korean BW with Korean commentary and loving every bit of it. The skill of the players made it all worth watching, and we didn't need an English voice telling us why we were enjoying ourselves. If SC2 were to both receive a massive infusion of talent and lose all English streams from Korea due to GOM's death, I would not complain too much.
The "key players" that we would lose would be replaced by Kespa. They would probably not have any interaction with the foreign community, but they would fulfill their job of strengthening the Korean esports scene well enough.
The mix 'n' match going on right now will be a non-factor whenever GOM becomes a non-factor. Do you really think that Kespa is going to bring eight-odd teams into its fold?
I really like your "I am a vet and I know everything" tactic. It really extends your e-penis. Am I right?
On October 29 2011 06:55 Torte de Lini wrote: There's no upside to this? You make it sound like Kespa is all bad news with a bump of legitimacy and professionalism within Korea (but not outside)
Once again, you've failed to read the entire post.
I read the whole thing, do you want me to summarize and dictate which points I'm referring to and how little how positive points you make besides the beginning layered introduction that introduces Kespa and its high standards?
There is clearly an upside to this whole situation. It's definitely a good thing for us, the SC2 spectators. I make that pretty clear at the end of the post. Without Kespa you cannot have the BW top talent.
Yeah, but those are minimal. Of course the bar is raised in terms of standards of "high-level" play, but the exchange is more and we lose the english narrative that you were talking about and eventually we lose the key players we have now in terms of business people, companies and/or more players and thus the separation of players in Korea and Foreigners is strengthened.
Will this affect the mix 'n' match that we have going on now? Koreans on Foreign teams and vice-versa? If this separation does ensue, will new foreign blood begin to propser faster as they are given more opportunity given Koreans are back in their base and thus a void must be filled with potentially new players?
That's what I'm wondering.
Hmm, you say that that consideration is minimal but I don't agree. Remember: a lot of us veterans used to spend a great deal of time watching Korean BW with Korean commentary and loving every bit of it. The skill of the players made it all worth watching, and we didn't need an English voice telling us why we were enjoying ourselves. If SC2 were to both receive a massive infusion of talent and lose all English streams from Korea due to GOM's death, I would not complain too much.
The "key players" that we would lose would be replaced by Kespa. They would probably not have any interaction with the foreign community, but they would fulfill their job of strengthening the Korean esports scene well enough.
The mix 'n' match going on right now will be a non-factor whenever GOM becomes a non-factor. Do you really think that Kespa is going to bring eight-odd teams into its fold?
I really like your "I am a vet and I know everything" tactic. It really extends your e-penis. Am I right?
They were both addressing some good points, yet you decide to write insults instead of adding to the discussion, what, all because he used the word "veteran", which he is?
On October 29 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: What would KESPA have against foreign fans/players? That part isn't explained anywhere. The fact that it shunned English casting in BW doesn't prove anything. SC2 popularity outside of Korea far exceeds that of BW, so to turn away the foreign market would be giving up potential profit. Some of you guys have weird conceptions of how business works.
Why would companies such as SK-Telecom and Hwaseung, Hite, Lecaf, etc. have any interest in a foreign market when their products are only consumed in Korea?
Why would a Korean bank, a Korean cell-phone company, a Korean beer company, etc... want to set up English casting for their Starcraft league, when their consumers and target audience are 99% Korean? There is no way a Korean corporation is stupid enough to invest money in English casting if their products are only consumed by Koreans. If you want to see English casting, it would have to be approved by KeSPA and be funded by a different source (such as Blizzard).
Think about it. If you are a corporation that makes products that can only be consumed in a single country, why would you waste funding and advertising money to cater to anyone outside of said country? Why should they treat foreign progamers any differently from Korean progamers (in terms of Code-A spots, separate training house, etc)?
Unless you have global corporations that are willing to invest millions of dollars to sponsor professional Starcraft teams in Korea, the system will stay in place. I don't know, maybe McDonald's or Coca-Cola or Pepsi can be convinced to fund the teams to improve their reputations in a niche market? One can only hope.
Are you under the impression that Korea-exclusive companies are somehow great or ideal sponsors? It's really the best you can do, to some extent, in the Korea-only BW environment.
On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea.
In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea.
To ignore this reality bespeaks a total lack of understanding of the world.
On October 29 2011 18:49 suejak wrote: On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea.
BW players have no reason to leave Korea because there are no BW tournaments outside of Korea and very few BW fans outside of Korea. Note that Korean BW players actually have been sent abroad several times to China, where there's an actual fanbase to market to. NFL players don't do a whole lot of international travel either, and it's not because the sponsors and team owners only do business in the US.
In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea.
Uh, you realize that KeSPA is made up of the sponsors of the BW teams, right? The last president (and maybe the current one as well, can't remember if someone else took the position since) was from SK Telecom. So you're saying that KeSPA, i.e. SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and so on, all companies that do business pretty much exclusively in Korea except for Samsung, are considering a switch because of foreign revenue potential?
To ignore this reality bespeaks a total lack of understanding of the world.
On October 29 2011 18:49 suejak wrote: On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea.
BW players have no reason to leave Korea because there are no BW tournaments outside of Korea and very few BW fans outside of Korea. Note that Korean BW players actually have been sent abroad several times to China, where there's an actual fanbase to market to. NFL players don't do a whole lot of international travel either, and it's not because the sponsors and team owners only do business in the US.
Yes, and American football is not popular outside of the United States. You can only find pockets of very very niche interest outside of the US. There is no market for the NFL outside of North America. That is the whole point, man.
In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea.
Uh, you realize that KeSPA is made up of the sponsors of the BW teams, right? The last president (and maybe the current one as well, can't remember if someone else took the position since) was from SK Telecom. So you're saying that KeSPA, i.e. SKT, KT, STX, Woongjin, and so on, all companies that do business pretty much exclusively in Korea except for Samsung, are considering a switch because of foreign revenue potential?
Yes. I also know how businesses work, as do most people who read the news. Kespa sees an opportunity to use its current talent pool to bring in additional viewers of a new game (SC2), by offering higher-level competition. There is huge viewership potential from foreign viewers. These viewers will not only be advertised to, but pay to watch Internet streams of good games. There is absolutely no way that any business would ignore this market -- because if it did, simple market forces would push money in other directions. The players would realize that they'd get more money if they traveled abroad or joined foreign, internationally-sponsored teams. Teams like EG can absolutely outbid a team like SKT or Oz for a top player. The teams would realize they'd get better sponsorship deals by welcoming foreign/international sponsors like FXO and Intel, etc. These options would exist, and it is impossible that the sheer pressure of foreign money in SC2 would not rip any xenophobic tendencies to shreds.
I really don't see why it's necessary to explain this. It is impossible that KESPA will shut out foreign viewership and survive. And if they don't shut out foreign viewership, they're going to have a hard time shutting out foreign players.
On October 29 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: What would KESPA have against foreign fans/players? That part isn't explained anywhere. The fact that it shunned English casting in BW doesn't prove anything. SC2 popularity outside of Korea far exceeds that of BW, so to turn away the foreign market would be giving up potential profit. Some of you guys have weird conceptions of how business works.
Why would companies such as SK-Telecom and Hwaseung, Hite, Lecaf, etc. have any interest in a foreign market when their products are only consumed in Korea?
Why would a Korean bank, a Korean cell-phone company, a Korean beer company, etc... want to set up English casting for their Starcraft league, when their consumers and target audience are 99% Korean? There is no way a Korean corporation is stupid enough to invest money in English casting if their products are only consumed by Koreans. If you want to see English casting, it would have to be approved by KeSPA and be funded by a different source (such as Blizzard).
Think about it. If you are a corporation that makes products that can only be consumed in a single country, why would you waste funding and advertising money to cater to anyone outside of said country? Why should they treat foreign progamers any differently from Korean progamers (in terms of Code-A spots, separate training house, etc)?
Unless you have global corporations that are willing to invest millions of dollars to sponsor professional Starcraft teams in Korea, the system will stay in place. I don't know, maybe McDonald's or Coca-Cola or Pepsi can be convinced to fund the teams to improve their reputations in a niche market? One can only hope.
Are you under the impression that Korea-exclusive companies are somehow great or ideal sponsors? It's really the best you can do, to some extent, in the Korea-only BW environment.
On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea.
In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea.
To ignore this reality bespeaks a total lack of understanding of the world.
lol you have no idea what you're talking about. Kespa IS the Korean-exclusive companies. Kespa IS SKT, KT, CJ, Samsung, STX and Woongjin. Why would Kespa be clamoring for foreign attention and for foreign money when none of the companies that it comprises of have anything to gain from foreign exposure, except Samsung. And it's not like seeing the Samsung label at MLG or whatever is going to suddenly make everyone go, "Oh my god, I'm gonna go buy a Galaxy now instead of an iPad." Their market and target audience is Korea, because that's where their products/services are based. Meanwhile, bringing in international sponsors would actually just increase competition in their domestic markets.
Yes. I also know how businesses work, as do most people who read the news. Kespa sees an opportunity to use its current talent pool to bring in additional viewers of a new game (SC2), by offering higher-level competition. There is huge viewership potential from foreign viewers. These viewers will not only be advertised to, but pay to watch Internet streams of good games. There is absolutely no way that any business would ignore this market -- because if it did, simple market forces would push money in other directions. The players would realize that they'd get more money if they traveled abroad or joined foreign, internationally-sponsored teams. Teams like EG can absolutely outbid a team like SKT or Oz for a top player. The teams would realize they'd get better sponsorship deals by welcoming foreign/international sponsors like FXO and Intel, etc. These options would exist, and it is impossible that the sheer pressure of foreign money in SC2 would not rip any xenophobic tendencies to shreds.
I really don't see why it's necessary to explain this. It is impossible that KESPA will shut out foreign viewership and survive. And if they don't shut out foreign viewership, they're going to have a hard time shutting out foreign players.
Once again, the companies that form Kespa do not benefit from international exposure. Their products and services are unobtainable by foreigners. What good does it do for Europe to see SK Telecom plastered on their streams? Not like they can go get an SKT phone.
And I think it's pretty funny you think EG can outbid SKT for its star players. SKT has shown itself throughout the years as perfectly willing to dish out ridiculous amounts of money to capture talent from multiple teams (probably why many people despise it so). If EG really had hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on player salaries, they would have done it already and made becoming a SC2 progamer that much more attractive. Isn't that one of the barriers to the gig right now? That there aren't stable salaries for players, and that most income comes from tournament earnings? Someone like Bisu commands a yearly salary of over $200,000. That's 4x the first place prize for GSL or MLG for just ONE player.
However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least.
With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong.
In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right.
The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
Why would you suggest EG can outbid anyone for a top player? The amount of total money spent by SKT1 on it's team i bet is magnitudes higher than EG.
Remember the K in KeSPA is Korea, they are not focused on spreading eSports everywhere or something like Gretech is (because they are just acting on Blizzards behalf). It doesn't mean they will ignore it though. But Proleague if it happens will be a bit of an obstacle for traveling players. It's up to teams not KeSPA to decide if they want to let players travel, and they will do as long as the schedule is ok - they will be representing the teams after all, it's not a bad thing. I don't know why people think they wouldn't do that. They will probably also make English support for their tournaments; they never ignored the market before it just didn't exist. Now there's an actual reason to do it.
I think what's more interesting is if foreigner tournaments will have to eventually not let Koreans play. You can't drop a ton extra top-level skilled players in the game and expect many foreigners to be even close. Some maybe, the few who have the dedication.. i suspect it would be young players like Stephano and Gosi[Terran] more than anything. All these older guys, Koreans or foreigners i seriously doubt will be competing.
On October 29 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: What would KESPA have against foreign fans/players? That part isn't explained anywhere. The fact that it shunned English casting in BW doesn't prove anything. SC2 popularity outside of Korea far exceeds that of BW, so to turn away the foreign market would be giving up potential profit. Some of you guys have weird conceptions of how business works.
Why would companies such as SK-Telecom and Hwaseung, Hite, Lecaf, etc. have any interest in a foreign market when their products are only consumed in Korea?
Why would a Korean bank, a Korean cell-phone company, a Korean beer company, etc... want to set up English casting for their Starcraft league, when their consumers and target audience are 99% Korean? There is no way a Korean corporation is stupid enough to invest money in English casting if their products are only consumed by Koreans. If you want to see English casting, it would have to be approved by KeSPA and be funded by a different source (such as Blizzard).
Think about it. If you are a corporation that makes products that can only be consumed in a single country, why would you waste funding and advertising money to cater to anyone outside of said country? Why should they treat foreign progamers any differently from Korean progamers (in terms of Code-A spots, separate training house, etc)?
Unless you have global corporations that are willing to invest millions of dollars to sponsor professional Starcraft teams in Korea, the system will stay in place. I don't know, maybe McDonald's or Coca-Cola or Pepsi can be convinced to fund the teams to improve their reputations in a niche market? One can only hope.
Are you under the impression that Korea-exclusive companies are somehow great or ideal sponsors? It's really the best you can do, to some extent, in the Korea-only BW environment.
On the other hand, international tournaments and teams like FXO, EG, GOM, etc, have international sponsors -- FXO, Pepsi, Intel, Razer, etc. These sponsors send their players around the world to tournaments. BW players seldom leave Korea.
In short, if there is a gigantic, existing foreign market, it is absurd that KESPA would ignore it, or that they would do well despite ignoring it. Players, teams, and even KESPA management would be clamoring for more foreign attention and for foreign money. Indeed, it's likely that KESPA is considering its switch to SC2 precisely because of the foreign revenue potential. It'd a hell of a lot more profitable than sticking only to BW and only to Korea.
To ignore this reality bespeaks a total lack of understanding of the world.
lol you have no idea what you're talking about. Kespa IS the Korean-exclusive companies. Kespa IS SKT, KT, CJ, Samsung, STX and Woongjin. Why would Kespa be clamoring for foreign attention and for foreign money when none of the companies that it comprises of have anything to gain from foreign exposure, except Samsung. And it's not like seeing the Samsung label at MLG or whatever is going to suddenly make everyone go, "Oh my god, I'm gonna go buy a Galaxy now instead of an iPad." Their market and target audience is Korea, because that's where their products/services are based. Meanwhile, bringing in international sponsors would actually just increase competition in their domestic markets.
First of all, simply to get this out of the way, I have no idea why you think that Samsung advertising is so special that it would be especially ineffective at MLG. If anything, that is amazing for Samsung's advertising efforts, because it quadruples its exposure in esports.
Secondly, it is painfully obvious that no entertainment company will ever refuse the opportunity to double or triple its viewership. There are a million ways for OGN and even KESPA to profit from a huge increase in foreign viewership, as they can make deals with bigger international sponsors to advertise to foreign audiences on foreign streams, etc. This would only bring more money into things -- which is good for everybody. Everyone would demand this, in fact: the management of OGN as a company, OGN shareholders, players, team management, etc. There is no way that foreign pressure would not split the whole thing right open.
On October 29 2011 19:46 infinity2k9 wrote: It's up to teams not KeSPA to decide if they want to let players travel, and they will do as long as the schedule is ok - they will be representing the teams after all, it's not a bad thing. I don't know why people think they wouldn't do that. They will probably also make English support for their tournaments; they never ignored the market before it just didn't exist. Now there's an actual reason to do it.
This is part is right, and exactly what I'm saying. Except that teams will absolutely 100% send players to foreign tournaments as long as they can afford it -- the potential money and pressure and exposure is just too high. Moreover, players will be receiving lots of competitive offers from outside of the Kespa structure, so teams will either need to be infused with a lot of foreign money or lose their players to foreign teams (as has happened numerous times in SC2 history already).
On October 29 2011 07:16 kamikami wrote: There's 0 reason that a white dude should be given reserved places in tournaments where others must spend 16 hours a day practicing during many months to get in. If one want to play in a tournament, he should use his skill to obtain it by defeating other contenders.
Actually there's very good reason for that. With the current lengths you need to go to to get into GSL, it simply isn't possible to do it while not living in Korea.
Many top players are very passionate about SC2 and have dedicated a big part of their current life to it, but moving to another country halfway across the world is a big step regardless and cannot reasonably be expected of any player who wants to give pro gaming a shot. For many, it will be too big a step to take, and this would make it very hard if not impossible for non-koreans to make it into the GSL or other extended Korean tournaments via the normal way.
A code A/S invite like some players are granted is simply saying: "You're probably good enough to get in if you lived in Korea, here's a spot. Now go and prove it." You only get that invite by actually posting results, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that sucky players without any practice are being invited just because they're not Korean. Yes, you get a quicker way in, but you'll still be facing the same level of play those 'regular' players would face. If you get demolished, you'll be out just as quickly.
Well all the teams let their players go to WCG's in the past, and Chinese events as well. Because of travel costs i don't think they will be sending all their players out for everything, that would be stupid.. the current teams won't even do that. But if a player has a chance to compete then i think they would. If there's a situation where many Koreans intend to go to one tournament though, thus lowering the chances of winning a prize then i'm not sure. But that's just common sense not unique to the Korean teams.
I'm not sure they will be receiving many offers though. It's too early to say. Not many teams even pay significant salaries outside of Korea, what you are saying can't really happen unless there's quite a bit more growth of the scene. EG is the obvious example everyone always gives, with something around 80-100k is suggested as the possible salary for Huk. But that's one player, and one team. How many more do you think they could afford to give that salary to? And also from a sponsors perspective isn't Huk more marketable and relevant to the foreign scene than any Korean players? Let's just say the equivalent to Huk in BW (by his SC2 position) would be lets say... Movie. Would EG offer the same contract to Movie, because i don't think so.
And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least.
With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong.
In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right.
The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
Bluargh, when this happens I will stop watching StarCraft.
On October 29 2011 20:26 ct2299 wrote: And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
Damn those dickwads at Kespa for fucking up bw by making the most legitimate, amazing e-sports industry that captured the attention of an entire nation. Motherfuckers.
On October 29 2011 20:26 ct2299 wrote: And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
Damn those dickwads at Kespa for fucking up bw by making the most legitimate, amazing e-sports industry that captured the attention of an entire nation. Motherfuckers.
this really isn't true though. Kespa sponsors had been doing stuff for a while, and the BW scene was going strong. For everything KeSPAa did good they also fucked up horribly. just go and look at the list of DQs.
That's like saying FIFA is seven ways of fucked up because of a referee's bad call. Let's pretend FIFA isn't horribly corrupt for the sake of my argument.
Kespa sponsors decided to form Kespa to bring BW progaming to a new level and better represent their own interests. They succeeded. How is Kespa evil again? The sum of these sponsors is well-intentioned, but the whole is evil and corrupt and DQ players simply because they can?
However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least.
With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong.
In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right.
The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
On October 29 2011 20:11 infinity2k9 wrote: Well all the teams let their players go to WCG's in the past, and Chinese events as well. Because of travel costs i don't think they will be sending all their players out for everything, that would be stupid.. the current teams won't even do that. But if a player has a chance to compete then i think they would. If there's a situation where many Koreans intend to go to one tournament though, thus lowering the chances of winning a prize then i'm not sure. But that's just common sense not unique to the Korean teams.
I'm not sure they will be receiving many offers though. It's too early to say. Not many teams even pay significant salaries outside of Korea, what you are saying can't really happen unless there's quite a bit more growth of the scene. EG is the obvious example everyone always gives, with something around 80-100k is suggested as the possible salary for Huk. But that's one player, and one team. How many more do you think they could afford to give that salary to? And also from a sponsors perspective isn't Huk more marketable and relevant to the foreign scene than any Korean players? Let's just say the equivalent to Huk in BW (by his SC2 position) would be lets say... Movie. Would EG offer the same contract to Movie, because i don't think so.
Off the top of my head, HuK, Idra, Naniwa, Stephano, and White-Ra all get paid extremely well. And these are just the foreign players I can think of.
On October 29 2011 06:53 Kroml. wrote: Blizzard is SO aggressive and protecting about SC2, I don't think the "Dominant KeSPA Problem" will occur. If KeSPA, even tries a little, to isolate Korean scene and IF this causes the interest to decrease, Blizzard will immediately react.
The last time and other times Blizzard fucked with KeSPA didn't go well for Blizzard. SC2 won't do shit in Korea unless KeSPA helps it. KeSPA had only one single response to Blizzard for the whole time being: "Fuck that shit". And due to matter of fact, Blizzard still has to do business with KeSPA just for the sake of South Korean market. Just because of that, if Blizzard tries to tell KeSPA what to do, they will get the same response as before: "Fuck that shit".
On October 29 2011 20:26 ct2299 wrote: And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
KeSPA will "get all xenophobic in SC2 as well". They don't give a fuck to Blizzard and Blizzard's rights and the way Blizzard exercises their rights. And they still win every single time.
However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least.
With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong.
In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right.
The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
Well, I'm glad you think I'm wrong, since you know more about what's going on in Korea than I do. I wish someone who knows what's going to happen would just spill the beans already -_-
KeSPA was never xenophobic, they just didn't coddle foreigners like GOM does. Maybe the coddling is good for "global e-sports", but it's still coddling.
Looking forward to Foreigners Suck SC2 Edition! Hopefully the first one is about Idra.
However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least.
With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong.
In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right.
The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
Well, I'm glad you think I'm wrong, since you know more about what's going on in Korea than I do. I wish someone who knows what's going to happen would just spill the beans already -_-
There is so much money and support in the foreign scene right now. Kespa would be foolish to not take advantage of that, and they have to know that a large portion of Gom's viewers are foreign and not Korean. I hope he is right too Motbob.
It would be a little different, the sc2 scene is so much bigger than bw ever was in the west and it could survive or even trump the korean scene. I'm talking about potential growth. South korea has around 50 million inhabitants and the western scene is mainly focused on US(330m+) and EU(730m+) along with other territories. With other sports, even tho the country might not be best at the sport people still watch the domestic leagues and players. This could happend with western e-sports.
There is always a catch, god dammit! but if this means the best of the best will be competing, my mind changes a little. Yes i feel sorry for the foreigners, but with these people we will see the best of the best, and i look forward to that
On October 29 2011 20:26 ct2299 wrote: And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
Damn those dickwads at Kespa for fucking up bw by making the most legitimate, amazing e-sports industry that captured the attention of an entire nation. Motherfuckers.
this really isn't true though. Kespa sponsors had been doing stuff for a while, and the BW scene was going strong. For everything KeSPAa did good they also fucked up horribly. just go and look at the list of DQs.
So how did you make the logical leap from DQ to xenophobia?
On October 29 2011 06:53 Kroml. wrote: Blizzard is SO aggressive and protecting about SC2, I don't think the "Dominant KeSPA Problem" will occur. If KeSPA, even tries a little, to isolate Korean scene and IF this causes the interest to decrease, Blizzard will immediately react.
The last time and other times Blizzard fucked with KeSPA didn't go well for Blizzard. SC2 won't do shit in Korea unless KeSPA helps it. KeSPA had only one single response to Blizzard for the whole time being: "Fuck that shit". And due to matter of fact, Blizzard still has to do business with KeSPA just for the sake of South Korean market. Just because of that, if Blizzard tries to tell KeSPA what to do, they will get the same response as before: "Fuck that shit".
On October 29 2011 20:26 ct2299 wrote: And THIS is why folks, as much as we hate Blizzard for not having LAN, they decided not to implement it. It's so that the dickwads from KESPA can't fuck shit up again (hopefully) and (HOPEFULLY) Blizzard exercises their rights and doesn't let KESPA get all xenophobic in SC2 as well.
KeSPA will "get all xenophobic in SC2 as well". They don't give a fuck to Blizzard and Blizzard's rights and the way Blizzard exercises their rights. And they still win every single time.
How exactly are they going to " win " when blizzard can shut down their entire tournament at a whim if they don't have approval?
On October 30 2011 03:58 Gann1 wrote: KeSPA was never xenophobic, they just didn't coddle foreigners like GOM does. Maybe the coddling is good for "global e-sports", but it's still coddling.
Looking forward to Foreigners Suck SC2 Edition! Hopefully the first one is about Idra.
We'll see about that whn Korean players can't attend foreign events.
Korean players attended foreign events in BW (Blizzcon every year until 2010, all kinds of blizzard invitationals, WCG) They didn't play more foreign events because A) there weren't many, and B) we wouldn't LET them.
On October 29 2011 06:53 Kroml. wrote: I think it all comes to Blizzard in SC2, not KeSPA.
When Brood War became a national sport in Korea, Blizzard's approach to Brood War was not the same as now, to SC2.
Now Blizzard, literally "brought it" by pursuing lawsuits and negotiations, showing that "Starcraft II is Blizzard's, if you want to do something with SC2, you need to pass Blizzard"
Blizzard is SO aggressive and protecting about SC2, I don't think the "Dominant KeSPA Problem" will occur. If KeSPA, even tries a little, to isolate Korean scene and IF this causes the interest to decrease, Blizzard will immediately react.
completely agreed. I as well think Blizzard will flex its might corporation peen and show KesPA who is boss. While some blizzard things they do i feel are bad for e-sports, like not giving tourney's the ability to run without bnet, i think they made the right choice in forcing Kespa to relinquish its monopoly on pro starcraft
Not really worried. Korea made the BW scene, and thus foreigners had to play by their rules. KeSPA's late to the SC2 party, and I don't think even they could bully everyone out of it. There's a lot more sponsors today than back in BW, and I get the feeling that the newer sponsors prefer international tournaments rather than an only-Korean league. Though I can't say how much value my opinion holds as I was only in the scene right before SC2 Beta came out... It will definitely be interesting.
As long as money exists in the 'foreign' countries, the foreign scene will be very much alive. Kespa cannot control tournaments outside Korea.
If a Proleague is to be formed Kespa would have to negotiate with Blizzard anyway. To keep the foreign interest in Starcraft II, Blizzard would have to make sure english casters will be available like it has been for GOM.
On October 30 2011 03:58 Gann1 wrote: KeSPA was never xenophobic, they just didn't coddle foreigners like GOM does. Maybe the coddling is good for "global e-sports", but it's still coddling.
Looking forward to Foreigners Suck SC2 Edition! Hopefully the first one is about Idra.
We'll see about that whn Korean players can't attend foreign events.
Teamliquid Starleague 1 and 2: no Korean IP. Koreans dominated so hard that we have to kick them out of our leagues. Who's the xenophobic one?
However, the future might hold very bad things indeed for foreigners. With Kespa's history of stubbornness and unilateralism, there's no reason to think that things will turn out for the best. The fact that Blizzard invited 4 BW pros to Blizzcon might be a sign of the ice thawing between Blizz and Kespa. But until an official announcement to that effect is made, I won't feel optimistic about the Korean situation in the least.
With the exception of the first sentence, this paragraph is completely wrong.
In regards to everything but the first sentence, all evidence suggests that KESPA is going to stop being retards and do things right.
The real reason the first sentence is correct: stay tuned for FS sc2 edition.
Well, I'm glad you think I'm wrong, since you know more about what's going on in Korea than I do. I wish someone who knows what's going to happen would just spill the beans already -_-
Regardless of what people know, until that happens the only way to really the view the upcoming Kespa involvement is with apprehensiveness because there's literally no evidence to suggest otherwise. There's no press release or leaked information out there right now. There's still no English BW stream today. I'm not saying Rekrul is wrong - history suggests he's probably not - but the point is that without something to go off, it's hard to be optimistic about the foreign scene with Kespa in your future.
(To be fair, I watched the korean stream vs. people who were talking over the koreans.)
This article is taking speculation way too far. There is no reason to believe that kespa will find any way to knock GOM out of the scene. Any more so than Dreamhack is likely to knock IEM out of the scene. SCII is a new scene. I don't see any way KEspa can walk in and wreck whats already built. Gom may no longer be the biggest tournament around, but it will certainly be relevant. Also consider that koreans will continue to come to foriegn tournament and join foreign teams. There are things at work in SCII which cannot be stopped. I firmly believe that.
I am very happy that Kespa switched, but I will be very sad if there is no hope for foreigners to participate in Korea and gain the ground they have so far. Second I will miss staying up late and watching Artosis and Tastless. All I hope for is that Kespa makes Sc2 more popular and that Gom tv stays doing what they are doing because I love everything about them at the moment.
Which is more important? Having superior games to watch, or having foreign players to cheer for?
But really, could KESPA completely ignore the huge growth in foreign SC2 scene? In Brood War it might have made sense, since foreign viewership would have been tiny compared to nowadays. Now there are tons more people, and more incentive to include us. In my opinion they'll have to cater to us at least a bit, or else they're potentially losing a lot of viewers.
Very good read, very insightful about the dynamics of the organizations that run esports. I made a post similar to this one on my blog, but quite frankly it was not as informative
Unlike BW, the fact that no LAN exists and it is forbidden to use such a thing means Blizzard controls everything, absolutely everything. Did you actually think they didn't implement LAN because 2 guys in some 3rd world country would pirate it? It was because a big ass group/organizer could have done what they've done with BW, just ignore Blizz. Kespa will have to kiss ass plenty to be allowed in let alone get bigger than GOM.
On October 31 2011 01:29 Insomni7 wrote: This article is taking speculation way too far. There is no reason to believe that kespa will find any way to knock GOM out of the scene. Any more so than Dreamhack is likely to knock IEM out of the scene. SCII is a new scene. I don't see any way KEspa can walk in and wreck whats already built. Gom may no longer be the biggest tournament around, but it will certainly be relevant. Also consider that koreans will continue to come to foriegn tournament and join foreign teams. There are things at work in SCII which cannot be stopped. I firmly believe that.
Uhh you think KeSPA teams started to practice the game without any real reason? Considering KeSPA had no motivation to so before it seems clear Blizzard conceded their total control to benefit growth of the game (finally). I don't think Blizzard will cut Gretech out though, that's true. It can all be part of a structure with the GSL simply as an individual league, but who knows it seems like it will be pretty complex to balance it all.
The thing is, is it too late? Or did it not even matter in the first place, because i don't see any reports of much growth in the Korean playerbase of the game. It's not like people don't know about the game it was advertised everywhere. It seems to be a bit of a niche. I don't think being on OGN when eSports has been on the steady decline as a whole over there is going to make it take off, it needs to be players then eSports not the other way around.
As for going into the international market, they will provide English commentators if the opportunity is there, of course. But i don't know what else people think they can/will do.. it's not like Proleague format is suited to anything worldwide, it needs to be centered somewhere. If the top level of SC2 has to be centered in Korea i don't see whats the big deal though.
Also we know the foreigner scene probably won't die, it'll just not allow Koreans (or limit them to a tiny amount like now) and ignore the skill divide.
With the news today about KeSPA granting progaming licenses to anyone who makes Code A or S, every prediction in this blog has turned out to be inaccurate.
On August 09 2012 02:20 motbob wrote: With the news today about KeSPA granting progaming licenses to anyone who makes Code A or S, every prediction in this blog has turned out to be inaccurate.
Oh i haven't heard about kespa giving out progaming licenses but that's good to see. Are progaming licenses still required to try out for OSL? Or is it just for proleague?
I ask because I know this OSL foreigners and anyone could try to qualify, but I am wondering if that's going to change next osl?
On August 09 2012 02:20 motbob wrote: With the news today about KeSPA granting progaming licenses to anyone who makes Code A or S, every prediction in this blog has turned out to be inaccurate.
edit I mean, it could be that you were wrong, but it depends on if kespa offers more reasoning than 'a huge project' and scheduling conflicts. I don't buy the skill gap arguement, either, since a) kespa players did well at wcs and b) they're letting gom players compete in osl, so... o.O I dunno
KeSPA was the biggest kid on the block last time around. They're big now too, but korean progamers have experienced the foreign scene, and have been almost universally blown away.
Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Hydra, Roro
Established names that I've sat in awe of for years.
But if it came down to it, I'm standing with GOM. They've messed up in the past, and their stream is sometimes unwatchable, but dammit I'm going to watch all the same. There was not even a inkling of the kind of scene there was last time in the foreign domain. KeSPA has no incentive to cater to foreigners, except SAMSUNG Khan all the sponsors of teams are almost exclusively Korean Oriented.
GOM will survive, GOM must survive. Fuck you KeSPA, if Blizzard doesn't do it in the announcement incoming, the foreign scene will protect GOM till our collective last breath.
As long as Gom has Tastosis they are safe (lets be honest I watched WCS Oceania because they were there.) Most The Foreign community views GSL as the most prestigious tournament in the world at the moment (that could change with OSL switching over to SC2) and they have the Casting Archon!!!! Gom has probably have made very little money so far from Korean viewers and even if GSL doesnt catch on in Korea, its made it this far with most of its money coming from foreigners why cant that continue?
I'm OK with KeSPA domination. I can watch the best production with the biggest talent pool and while not paying a dime.
On August 24 2012 11:56 TommyP wrote: As long as Gom has Tastosis they are safe (lets be honest I watched WCS Oceania because they were there.) Most The Foreign community views GSL as the most prestigious tournament in the world at the moment (that could change with OSL switching over to SC2) and they have the Casting Archon!!!! Gom has probably have made very little money so far from Korean viewers and even if GSL doesnt catch on in Korea, its made it this far with most of its money coming from foreigners why cant that continue?
GOM's services are all free for Koreans while we have to pay just to watch the VODs, once per every season. They get nothing but ad revenues over there. Majority of their earnings are from us foreigners.
Kespa's big but it's also mean. Kespa players don't have nearly as much freedoms as GOM players, the deals they cut aren't just favorable for them but unfavorable for the other party. Too much exploitation going on.
Even though Kespa has got some big names I respect a lot I think it would be good for Esports of Kespa teams just got repeated crushed by GOM teams every time they show their face. That's the only real leverage GOM has, the talent of their players to attract viewers.
On August 24 2012 16:06 Djagulingu wrote: I'm OK with KeSPA domination. I can watch the best production with the biggest talent pool and while not paying a dime.
On August 24 2012 11:56 TommyP wrote: As long as Gom has Tastosis they are safe (lets be honest I watched WCS Oceania because they were there.) Most The Foreign community views GSL as the most prestigious tournament in the world at the moment (that could change with OSL switching over to SC2) and they have the Casting Archon!!!! Gom has probably have made very little money so far from Korean viewers and even if GSL doesnt catch on in Korea, its made it this far with most of its money coming from foreigners why cant that continue?
GOM's services are all free for Koreans while we have to pay just to watch the VODs, once per every season. They get nothing but ad revenues over there. Majority of their earnings are from us foreigners.
I said, as you can see, that most of Gom's money has come from foreigners. Also you can watch Gom for free and currently it is Gom with the biggest talent pool. Kespa domination wont happen in SC2 and if it does it will be very very bad.
On August 24 2012 16:06 Djagulingu wrote: I'm OK with KeSPA domination. I can watch the best production with the biggest talent pool and while not paying a dime.
On August 24 2012 11:56 TommyP wrote: As long as Gom has Tastosis they are safe (lets be honest I watched WCS Oceania because they were there.) Most The Foreign community views GSL as the most prestigious tournament in the world at the moment (that could change with OSL switching over to SC2) and they have the Casting Archon!!!! Gom has probably have made very little money so far from Korean viewers and even if GSL doesnt catch on in Korea, its made it this far with most of its money coming from foreigners why cant that continue?
GOM's services are all free for Koreans while we have to pay just to watch the VODs, once per every season. They get nothing but ad revenues over there. Majority of their earnings are from us foreigners.
I said, as you can see, that most of Gom's money has come from foreigners. Also you can watch Gom for free and currently it is Gom with the biggest talent pool. Kespa domination wont happen in SC2 and if it does it will be very very bad.
GOM doesn't have much time left imo. I give them 6 months after KeSPA fully switches into SC2. KeSPA players practised SC2 for 1/3rd of time ESF players did and that was alongside BW. And what happens after trade lock? Afaik, none of the ESF teams pay their players. We can see big players from ESF going into KeSPA teams for 8-9 figs in KrWon excluding tournament earnings, that is if ESF players are still better that time. Will ESF teams be able to compensate that amount of money?
I like ESF though, I hate GOM tbh. GOM and the way they try to milk non-Korean e-Sports fans. I wish ESF and KeSPA go together or merge under one flag with all their contents being broadcasted over OGN. I just don't like GOM.
Kespa already has switched fully into Sc2. We are just waiting for prolaegue to end. Gom has nothing to do with ESF other than esf players participate in GSL, but so do players not part of esf. "I hate GOM tbh. GOM and the way they try to milk non-Korean e-Sports fans" I dont understand how they are "milking" us. I actually dont think your post has much logic in it at all. And I would love to see proof that esf players dont get paid from their teams, because im positive they do because why wouldnt they join a foreign team if that was the case.
I think that as long as Tastosis is at gom, they will survive no matter what.
Yeah, KeSPA is pretty much all SC2 at this point. People like to make a big deal about how KeSPA players haven't really switched, but with ace matches in PL being SC2, the time split for SC2:BW is basically 80:20 or 90:10 these days. The teams can bomb all their BW games, but as long as they can win their SC2 sets and force an ace match and win that ace match, their BW performance doesn't mean shit.
As for KeSPA having more skilled players ... debatable. I don't see why this is a surprise to most people, but it certainly makes sense to me that some KeSPA players are amazingly good at SC2, while some are amazingly atrocious, just as some non-KeSPA players are amazingly good at SC2 and some are amazingly atrocious. Surely this is not a surprise.
ESF and GOM are not the same (as has been stated already). ESF is just showing support for GOM with their actions. Their connection is much more tenuous than the OGN and KeSPA connection (... they basically are the same). The problem with KeSPA taking over is that they are pretty much only interested in the Korean market, while at the very least GOM is very open to foreigner participation and acknowledges the much greater popularity SC2 has internationally, especially compared to its popularity within Korea.
Additionally, I think there will probably be quite a few problems when the trade ban ends. If a lot of KeSPA players have not sufficiently caught up to the ESF players by then, you had better be sure that KeSPA will try to buy out a lot of the top ESF players by offering better contracts. It stands to wonder what ESF has to offer their players that is better than KeSPA salaries (note, only for A and S-class players, the B-teamers will get paid pennies by both sides): willingness to send them to foreign tourneys, less draconian rules and practice hours, possibly partnerships with foreign teams that can extend their popularity, etc.
EPT
IdrA, who was granted a pro license by his team, eSTRO), but for the most part, anyone who wanted to compete in the Brood War scene needed to spend a significant time in Korea.
Jaedong. But slowly and steadily, Kespa pressured the teams to pull their players from the league. By the third season, only eight out of the twelve proteams were participating in the league. There was no fourth season. Kespa had control over both the bulk of the talent and the bulk of the sponsorship money; there was no overcoming that. So ended the experiment of English coverage of Korean BW.
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