EPTSC2 Long term perspective - future fate of Pros. - Page 2
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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jjhchsc2
Korea (South)2393 Posts
On September 28 2011 05:38 sluggaslamoo wrote: SC2 will never become like that, the game design won't allow it. SC2 will always be a game of poker when compared to BW. I'm not saying its a bad thing, I'm just saying that that's what it will be like. EDIT: I'm going to phrase this differently Core competencies required in BW - Multitasking - Macro - Micro - Tactics - Strategy Core competencies required in SC2 - Macro - Decision Making - Game Sense - Meta-gaming Ironically how Flash plays BW is how the OP sees how people play SC2. He doesn't have the best mechanics, but he always manages to seemingly blindly outplay his opponent. Because Flash's timing attacks are so powerful, a lot of his games play out like in SC2. - Blindly opens with a CC first -> Blindly hard-counter timing attack with Valkonic vs Mutaling -> opponent has 0% chance of comeback - Blindly opens with a build -> Opponent thinks hes doing something -> Flash does something else -> Opponent doesn't make any units and completely dies - etc BW is 10 years old, is a game which doesn't suit this kind of play that much, yet the player who is doing this style the one who has had the highest ELO in history. So in that respect, I can hardly see SC2 ever changing in this regard. WTF flash has ridiulously good mechanics. like the best in bw or second to jaedong. and no, it aint a blind counter if you analyze your opponent thoroughly and prepare accordingly | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On September 28 2011 09:34 Kashll wrote: Pretty sure Grrr made a conscious decision to quit starcraft to pursue poker and other endeavours. Tell that to JulyZerg and Nada pretty sure him, rekrul, and the other foreigners all saw the koreans training longer than they wanted to for the money, and switched to poker because they knew they couldn't keep up. rekrul even cites this. julyzerg and nada are not the rule, they are the exception. you almost prove my point by resorting to picking absolute LEGENDS to make your case. | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6593 Posts
On September 28 2011 11:30 nath wrote: pretty sure him, rekrul, and the other foreigners all saw the koreans training longer than they wanted to for the money, and switched to poker because they knew they couldn't keep up. rekrul even cites this. julyzerg and nada are not the rule, they are the exception. you almost prove my point by resorting to picking absolute LEGENDS to make your case. 2 things. 1) When did you get the time to write this -.- 2) You will hate me for it but Testie is also a player who would fit into that =p ROFL  | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
Even if you analyzed those players in the mid and late game you'd realize they're all still pretty far behind most of the top players in mechanics, decision making, and multitasking. What ifs don't mean shit in real life. Saying that highly accomplished players like MC, Polt, and MKP will fall to make way for foreigners scraping the bottom of code A in the future is a joke. All those players have been much better throughout the entire year and lifespan of sc2 than anyone the OP has mentioned. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On September 28 2011 11:11 jjhchsc2 wrote: WTF flash has ridiulously good mechanics. like the best in bw or second to jaedong. and no, it aint a blind counter if you analyze your opponent thoroughly and prepare accordingly Well then nothing is a blind counter, its just a blind build. Obviously people don't do 14cc's into Valkonic without analysing their opponent first, however this assumes that Jaedong will play the way he always does, therefore its a blind counter. When Flash went 14cc against Effort, he lost. On September 28 2011 09:29 infinity2k9 wrote: Flash doesn't blindly outplay opponents at all really. He's good at mixing up builds in individual leagues but most of the time just plays safe. You don't get to 6 Starleague finals in a row doing things blindly. In contrast SC2 will never have that kind of consistency or dominance. The GSL is even set up in a way to force consistency because OSL/MSL style qualification would be crazy every time and it would never have any consistency - like the foreign scene. That's true, but so do people in SC2 when top players are playing against bad players. I'm talking about when it counts, and I'm talking about in relation to the OP its the most glaring factor of Flash's play. On September 28 2011 11:11 jjhchsc2 wrote:WTF flash has ridiulously good mechanics. like the best in bw or second to jaedong. Are we seriously going to have an argument about how Flash has the best mechanics in BW? Seriously? On September 28 2011 06:28 corumjhaelen wrote: I completely disagree about your analysis of Flash play. This guy is just the best player ever at split second decision making. Its not an analysis of Flash's play, its an analysis of how Flash's play creates games that are very similar to SC2, even though its been 10 years. There was a time when Flash was the cheese king, according to the OP's standards this would make him a bad player, but look at him now. So for a game which rewards timing attacks even more, its unlikely that in a few years or even before Starcraft 3 comes out, this situation would improve. My point is, without arguing about specifics, a lot of Flash's games turn out the same way as games do in SC2 because of how strong his timing attacks are. This is after many many many years of BW, therefore its very unlikely that SC2 will turn out the way the OP wants. A time will come when certain very good players like Flash will completely disrupt the back and forth nature of the game, if we do get another Flash in SC2 it will get even worse not better. Its all to do with game design, and right now that's not headed towards giving more defenders advantage. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Already it's the patching pushing the 'metagame' forward, so what happens when that stops; people work out timings to the second and then pick one at the start of the game (at the top at least, but they will spread down with such easy mechanics). Loads of ways to change this but will they? Probably not. | ||
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Zombie_Velociraptor
274 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 28 2011 20:06 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote: How come whiners always whine about 'blind' timing attacks but not 'blind' greedy macro? I never understood this. 1. Blind timing attacks have a very visual end-to-the game nature to them. You build up, you attack, you win or are deflected. You can try 10 different things and easily die to a blind timing attack. Greedy macro on the other hand varies in greed, doesn't cause end of game immediately (You'll whine about the later attack that ends game perhaps, but not see past the greedy steps that won it). It's a difference of perception and finality. 2. Zerg playstyles trend towards being a reactive, passive race, particularly in early game. Their expansions ARE unit producing structures, their army units enjoy being massed from an economic base. This leads to greedy macro gameplay, where you're just producing the army you need while pumping drones. The learning process is when to cut drones for units, and not when to make drones and cut army units. For this reason blind greedy macro is a grey area, part of it is race gameplay. 3. RTS is primarily an eco game. One man's greed is another man's basics. The attacks, however, are a culmination of the three part build-base build-army attack-with-army. Stage 3, as mentioned in (1) ends the game. Stage 1 leading into Stage 2 is so normal that it hardly calls the attention of would-be-whiners. | ||
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ExceeD_DreaM
Canada500 Posts
12 Nex used to be the trend, but not anymore. Remember the day after Fantasy Stork finals where Fantasy won 3:0? 12 Nex was dying already then because terran bunker rush was too powerful. Stork 12 nexed that game after losing final 0:3 and manhandled fantasy. These 'blind' plays are strategies, mind games and prepared by analyzing your opponent etc etc. It is also VERY rewarding. And these pro gamers tends to be confident in defending early rushes. For instance, Rax->CC in TvP is really dangerous if P pressures with zealot, or Gas rushes in your main, or suddenly pops up with 6+ range goons and snipes the bunker when terran only has maybe 3 scvs on the bunker. But this is VERY rewarding economically if you fend it off, and hence why T prefer to take the risk. Same with ZvZ 12 hatch and 14 CC vs zerg. BW always have hard counters, and these risk taking moves are rewarding but also at the same time, can be punished really badly. I don't realy see Flash playing blind games since he has everything into his consideration. He just got outplayed or played bad vs Effort. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
But in SC2, see Killers games today. He risks a fast nex 3 times and just happens to win 2/3 (one killed instantly) and advances. When the risk paid off the eco advantage means the game is an inevitability unless Killer fucks up (i think he also went blind no obs as well, another risk ontop of a risk). And the rest of the game is just macro and attack and decided without massive blunders. It was awful games really and silly someone can get to the RO16 like that. The difference between is that mostly BW has a load more happen that's interesting in the meantime while nothing happens in SC2. I never felt like the games were foregone conclusions as early as i constantly see in SC2. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32091 Posts
On September 28 2011 04:49 nath wrote: Because of the legacy of starcraft, sc2 blew up (commercially/esport-y/monetarily) faster than the game developed into a fully-developed game. Therefore we see many things that I have noticed mentioned by ex-BW fans about the quality of SC2 games, and pros making mistakes that you could *ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT EXCEPTION* not get away with. Mistakes that, as the game and scene develops two-fold (skillwise, monetarily its already huge obviously), will make many pros disappear and currently mediocre/underrated/'bad' players good. So the pros will quit because they're not actually as good as you think and refuse to adapt?? On September 28 2011 20:06 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote: How come whiners always whine about 'blind' timing attacks but not 'blind' greedy macro? I never understood this. it's a terribly stupid concept that dates back to BW. If you have a build order that's used specifically to fuck up greedy macro builds, you're a jerk and a cheeser. WAAAAH. It is the lamest thing, a straight up cop out for people who aren't as good as they think they are | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On September 28 2011 20:06 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote: How come whiners always whine about 'blind' timing attacks but not 'blind' greedy macro? I never understood this. I think the problem is not the difference, but the fact that blind plays have become such an integral part of SC2, that it almost feels like poker. In SC2 its much more difficult to react against un-scouted information or information that you don't scout in time (whether this is greedy or cheesy doesn't matter), so instead of seeing multiple smart or lucky plays gradually inching the player ahead and seeing a lot of action, you have 1 smart/lucky play completely deciding the game even before the first battle. When this happens, you lose the back and forth nature of the game, and most games are very predictably decided before the first battle even commences. Of course you will still have good players who will win a lot more than bad players, just like you do in Hold'em, but that's not the point. | ||
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