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On September 21 2011 17:19 chiboni wrote:
Pretty much what some people said. There is no reason for LAN (expect for major tournaments, no lagg etc.) because now everyone is ONLINE. I doubt you sitting in a room with your friends, having a 'LAN' and you are not ONLINE while playing.
So it sounds more like 'Why do i have to pay X copys when i want to play with my friends,even so one of us owns a copy'.
Also that with the emulated server is no big suprise.. WOW Addon Cataclysm was emulated/datamined the day F&F Alpha came out.
So i guess its common for client sided games ?
because everyone has infinity bandwidth, herpaderp.
Let me break it down for you:
the more people at your house playing, the laggier it gets, NOT just because of going through the internet, to a server thats far away, and then back to your house, for THE EXACT SAME GAME IN THE SAME ROOM, but because that also taxes your internet throughput and your ROUTER throughput, especially when it has to wait for more info to come from the far away internet.
people who say there's no reason for lan becauise everyone can connect ot the internet, blah blah blah, are just apologists who don't understand how the internet actually works, and who don't care about people being denied the right to play their game wherever, without a connection to the internet neecessary.
As its been said, piraters and hackers already can do these things.
tl;dr, anyone who argues that having internet at a location means LAN is useless doesn't understand bandwidth and is an idiot. Or maybe, they could be one of those people hired at .2 cents by blizz/activision to keep pushing their agenda on forums in droves so that everyone else starts thinking the same way.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Playing with and without 100ping while microing blink stalkers vs stimmed marines is funny - it is literally the difference between 100% success blinking with red hp and loosing most of your stalkers with the rest at almost full hp because you blinked too early.
LAN isnt just to remove internet requirement, it is to remove input lag and allow for far better micro and control
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D3 characters hosted server-side is very good for the game because it prevents character hacks.
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On September 21 2011 15:39 mtn wrote:
The thing is that D3 isn't even released yet, and there are already not really playable, but still ARE server emulators. That really is something.
That happened for EVERY beta blizzard did since War3. Dia3 is just the first game that included a singleplayer portion in the beta. So while it is certainly a feat to reverse engineer this so fast ... it's not like this hasn't happened before.
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On September 21 2011 17:24 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 17:19 chiboni wrote:
Pretty much what some people said. There is no reason for LAN (expect for major tournaments, no lagg etc.) because now everyone is ONLINE. I doubt you sitting in a room with your friends, having a 'LAN' and you are not ONLINE while playing.
So it sounds more like 'Why do i have to pay X copys when i want to play with my friends,even so one of us owns a copy'.
Also that with the emulated server is no big suprise.. WOW Addon Cataclysm was emulated/datamined the day F&F Alpha came out.
So i guess its common for client sided games ? because everyone has infinity bandwidth, herpaderp. Let me break it down for you: the more people at your house playing, the laggier it gets, NOT just because of going through the internet, to a server thats far away, and then back to your house, for THE EXACT SAME GAME IN THE SAME ROOM, but because that also taxes your internet throughput and your ROUTER throughput, especially when it has to wait for more info to come from the far away internet. people who say there's no reason for lan becauise everyone can connect ot the internet, blah blah blah, are just apologists who don't understand how the internet actually works, and who don't care about people being denied the right to play their game wherever, without a connection to the internet neecessary. As its been said, piraters and hackers already can do these things. tl;dr, anyone who argues that having internet at a location means LAN is useless doesn't understand bandwidth and is an idiot. Or maybe, they could be one of those people hired at .2 cents by blizz/activision to keep pushing their agenda on forums in droves so that everyone else starts thinking the same way.
how much bandwidth you think you need to run this game? Most household nowaday can probably support 7-8 computers online playing. If they were streaming, then thats a different story. Yes there will be ping from home router to their server and back, but it isnt so bad that lan is a must. We look at sc2 and yes there is issues crossing servers and that one mlg incident but beside that it was pretty much smooth sailing.
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I was under the impression that cracking into the client and being able to run around in an empty game was more or less what Blizz expect people to get away with. Emulation of all the data stored on Blizz's servers to actually reproduce the game to a playable standard will be a completely different story. Thats where the random maps, monsters, loot, quests, ect. is all handled for D3.
Trying to hardcode all that data in the blind would be nearly impossible, but of course there's that saying about monkeys and typewriters. If it's possible to get a fully functional crack I wouldn't expect it anytime soon. It'd likely take years, long after Blizz has made enough profit off of sales and merch to cover the costs of production. What happens in that time? Expansions! Constantly changing data stores and security software. Just thinking about such a daunting task makes me want to chop off my hands so I can never write another line of code.
On another note.
R.I.P. LAN. I will remember you fondly; an artifact from the days of yore. Fading into the ages, a distant memory; a painful longing reminding me of times gone by.
But seriously, Blizz would be in deep shit if one person could buy a copy of D3 and share it with all their friends for offline multiplayer. Logging into Bnet would just be an extra cherry on top of the sundae. I know it sucks that the gaming industry has evolved this way, but it's a necessary evil. Production costs aren't the low budget ordeals they used to be and making sure you at least pay for the cost of development is a real concern.
It comes down to the gaming community having to open our wallets and support the companies that bring us hours of entertainment. Hell, if you're a RMAH wizard, then Blizzard will be paying you to play the game. If D3 doesn't turn a decent profit for the ~5-7 years it took to create you can just about guarantee that we will never see a Diablo IV, or even continued expansion content. I don't want to see that happen to my all time favorite game series.
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On September 21 2011 17:24 Truedot wrote:
people who say there's no reason for lan becauise everyone can connect ot the internet, blah blah blah, are just apologists who don't understand how the internet actually works, and who don't care about people being denied the right to play their game wherever, without a connection to the internet neecessary.
Bandwidth is not the issue here. Dia3's traffic per player, even if it exceeds that of WoW (which it technically shouldn't) is not more than 25kb/s up/down per player. On a 500kb/sec upstream (since upstream will almost always be the limit) you can technically fit 20 people, realistically 15 people. If you plan on hosting a bigger LAN, a line with more than 500kb/sec up should be availible as you will also need a bigger room.
But philosophically you are right. For the singleplayer portion there should be no need of an active internet connection. Sc2 too has an offline mode for singleplayer and so should D3. For multplayer, they should implement a virtual lan mode that only sends authentication to bnet but data just within the LAN like with the Valve games. But multiplayer without any internet connection is not gonna happen as it opens the door too wide for early and easy piracy.
And yes, there will still be multiplayer piracy even with the mandatory internet connection. But it will be not nearly as widespread. While this is unfortunate for players in remote locations that wanna play via LAN, they represent a very tiny fraction of the playerbase and are justifiable to "cut". Blizzard will get more money from people buying the game because they can't easy pirate the multiplayer than they lose of players that can't play multiplayer because they have no internet access. Same rational goes for singleplayer but quantities of both parties shift a little and it's not immediately clear if it pays of for them to haunt consumers with required internet access for singleplayer. But it's still a decision they have to make.
You have every right to boycott and i understand your motives, but please remember that a vast majority of the playerbase sees the required internet as a non-issue as long as the service is reliable on Blizzards side.
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On September 21 2011 17:56 jacen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 17:24 Truedot wrote:
people who say there's no reason for lan becauise everyone can connect ot the internet, blah blah blah, are just apologists who don't understand how the internet actually works, and who don't care about people being denied the right to play their game wherever, without a connection to the internet neecessary. Bandwidth is not the issue here. Dia3's traffic per player, even if it exceeds that of WoW (which it technically shouldn't) is not more than 25kb/s up/down per player. On a 500kb/sec upstream (since upstream will almost always be the limit) you can technically fit 20 people, realistically 15 people. If you plan on hosting a bigger LAN, a line with more than 500kb/sec up should be availible as you will also need a bigger room. But philosophically you are right. For the singleplayer portion there should be no need of an active internet connection. Sc2 too has an offline mode for singleplayer and so should D3. For multplayer, they should implement a virtual lan mode that only sends authentication to bnet but data just within the LAN like with the Valve games. But multiplayer without any internet connection is not gonna happen as it opens the door too wide for early and easy piracy. And yes, there will still be multiplayer piracy even with the mandatory internet connection. But it will be not nearly as widespread. While this is unfortunate for players in remote locations that wanna play via LAN, they represent a very tiny fraction of the playerbase and are justifiable to "cut". Blizzard will get more money from people buying the game because they can't easy pirate the multiplayer than they lose of players that can't play multiplayer because they have no internet access. Same rational goes for singleplayer but quantities of both parties shift a little and it's not immediately clear if it pays of for them to haunt consumers with required internet access for singleplayer. But it's still a decision they have to make. You have every right to boycott and i understand your motives, but please remember that a vast majority of the playerbase sees the required internet as a non-issue as long as the service is reliable on Blizzards side.
Great post! Sums it up very nicely I think; particularly the last sentence.
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On September 21 2011 14:23 Inori wrote:Note: I'm not giving any links, those who want can find themselves. Also this more of a rant, which is why I'm posting it in blogs and not in D3 section. Basically there's a server emulation hack out in the open already. It has its problems and limitations (like you can only play DH atm), but main point is that it works.While no LAN support isn't as much of a needed feature for D3 as it was for SC2, this type of game is still very good and fun to play at a LAN party. Few friends, few beers, whole night to play, etc. Back in d2 days we could OFFICIALLY just get 1 copy of d2+lod, install it on all of our computers and play via LAN, no problem. Going online on battle.net was a different story - only 1 cd-key allowed, which was fair enough. Those who were diehard fans ended up buying their copies, those who just wanted to have fun for a night didn't. All good. Now, with D3 we'd need a copy of D3 each AND all be online just to play together, even if we're physically in the same room. Blizzard tries to justify it with better anti-hack, yet game is already hacked without even beta being fully out. (And judging by the looks of it, no, they won't fix it before release, problem is in the architecture itself). TL;DR: With Blizzards new "anti-hacking" policy, it seems that only people suffering from it are those that are trying to use their software honestly. Poll: No LAN justified?No (229) 75% Yes (42) 14% Don't care (33) 11% 304 total votes Your vote: No LAN justified? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Don't care
How is piracy in any way an honest way of using their software? Can you please explain that to me, because it doesn't make any sense at all.
You and your friends want to have your cake and eat it too, using a great misunderstanding of how the internet works in order to try and back up your claims. In the 21st century we have access to home internet connections in almost every corner of the world that is fast enough to support 20 people to play a game simultaneously, online.
And the ludicrous notion that only "diehard" fans are going to buy the game also just blows my mind. How are you a diehard fan if you enjoy playing a game online, as opposed to just playing it once a month when the rest of your friends can be arsed to move their computer over to your apartment?
The term diehard doesn't make any sense.
The game is in no way hacked. Someone has coded a sandbox server, which is far from coding a complete emulation of Blizzard's own Battle.Net. We are years away from a fully operational Battle.Net emulator, which will still be inferior to Blizzard's own Battle.Net, as it will be way less people playing, which means it'll suck.
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
Yea, they should add LAN so you can buy one copy of the game and play it on lanparties with all your friends. When will you guys understand that implemented LAN is bad for business in days when everyone has enet.
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Of course not. Its the same like with Assasins Creed where you had to be online all the time. The only people who suffer from this are not the hackers. Its the true customers!
I really dont unterstand how the industry can be so dump! The true customers pay for ever SHIT (excuse me) like overpriced DLC which were before for free before they invetend them! I always thought blizzard would do the best for their gamers. For me i can live without LAN-Support but i can not be all the time online!
I am sorry for the people that make their living from making games but i will not stay a true customer after i heard what Blizzard is doing with D3.....
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I'm pretty sure they have the ability to give you mobile internet in Germany, allowing you to "be all the time online!"
It seems we have another case of someone wanting to have his cake and eat it too.
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On September 21 2011 18:27 SolHeiM wrote:
I'm pretty sure they have the ability to give you mobile internet in Germany, allowing you to "be all the time online!"
It seems we have another case of someone wanting to have his cake and eat it too.
Well of course. But if you dont live in a big town your bandwith is not the best. I live in a small village and we have not very good internet atm.
It seems we have another case of smart-ass.....
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On September 21 2011 19:03 LayZRR wrote:
Well of course. But if you dont live in a big town your bandwith is not the best. I live in a small village and we have not very good internet atm.
As long as it's reasonably stable, it should have no problem handling 15 concurrent diablo 3 players. If you are on DSL 16k, you can even handle up to 30. If your internet is not stable, you can also not watch internet streams fluently and you should complain with your ISP to fix it.
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I'm amazed at how many responses are actually agreeing with Acti-Blizz on the removal of LAN and constant internet tether.
You do realise they're punishing the people that actually buy the game. The people in the warez scene always find a way to crack a game. I don't think there is one game (barring MMOs, even then there are some hacked servers even if its not the best quality) that hasn't been cracked and put up on torrents and warez sites.
But of course if you liked to get stooged and screwed by a game company by all means keep supporting them.
Truedot has the right idea.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2011 17:24 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 17:19 chiboni wrote:
Pretty much what some people said. There is no reason for LAN (expect for major tournaments, no lagg etc.) because now everyone is ONLINE. I doubt you sitting in a room with your friends, having a 'LAN' and you are not ONLINE while playing.
So it sounds more like 'Why do i have to pay X copys when i want to play with my friends,even so one of us owns a copy'.
Also that with the emulated server is no big suprise.. WOW Addon Cataclysm was emulated/datamined the day F&F Alpha came out.
So i guess its common for client sided games ? because everyone has infinity bandwidth, herpaderp. Let me break it down for you: the more people at your house playing, the laggier it gets, NOT just because of going through the internet, to a server thats far away, and then back to your house, for THE EXACT SAME GAME IN THE SAME ROOM, but because that also taxes your internet throughput and your ROUTER throughput, especially when it has to wait for more info to come from the far away internet. people who say there's no reason for lan becauise everyone can connect ot the internet, blah blah blah, are just apologists who don't understand how the internet actually works, and who don't care about people being denied the right to play their game wherever, without a connection to the internet neecessary. As its been said, piraters and hackers already can do these things. tl;dr, anyone who argues that having internet at a location means LAN is useless doesn't understand bandwidth and is an idiot. Or maybe, they could be one of those people hired at .2 cents by blizz/activision to keep pushing their agenda on forums in droves so that everyone else starts thinking the same way.
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On September 21 2011 19:24 FractalsOnFire wrote:
You do realise they're punishing the people that actually buy the game.
Punishing might not be the right word. Diablo 3 is a luxury good and if you feel punished by it, you have the very viable option of not buying it. Especially in the light of other games, such as torchlight, providing an almost identical experience with different features (LAN, offline Singleplayer). Blizzard has no monopoly or patent on hack&slay games.
On September 21 2011 19:24 FractalsOnFire wrote:
The people in the warez scene always find a way to crack a game. I don't think there is one game (barring MMOs, even then there are some hacked servers even if its not the best quality) that hasn't been cracked and put up on torrents and warez sites.
You seem to confuse the data of the game with it's actual experience. As i said before, yes there will be hacks out for Dia3. Depending on what amount of data is actually stored on the Blizzard servers, it might take a long time or almost impossible to reverse-engineer. As you can see with SC2 Multiplayer there is no crack to conveniently play the game without an enabled battle.net account. As you have seen with MMORPGs you can actually reduce illegal copies to an absolute minimum even if you throw out the game client. The same will happen with Diablo3.
On September 21 2011 19:24 FractalsOnFire wrote:
But of course if you liked to get stooged and screwed by a game company by all means keep supporting them.
I think you are demonizing not only Blizzard but also it's customers. You fail to realize that the company just has evolved and may not be providing the experience you are looking for. Fortunately for you, other companies do. I really hope you bought Torchlight and plan on buying Torchlight 2 also.
On September 21 2011 19:24 FractalsOnFire wrote:
Truedot has the right idea.
No he has not. See my above rebuttal of his factual arguments. Of course he is perfectly entitled to his opinion on what features games should provide and he might even find them in other games.
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I refuse to pay money to a company who does this. Same as with SC2, I will be pirating a product that I otherwise would happily have paid for if it had LAN capabilities.
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On September 21 2011 20:19 m1LkmaN wrote:
I refuse to pay money to a company who does this. Same as with SC2, I will be pirating a product that I otherwise would happily have paid for if it had LAN capabilities.
While it's unfortunate for them that you won't buy it, think that for everyone that pirates it just because of that there are many other players that will buy it, because the pirated version just won't be the same. It happened with WoW and SC2, and will probably continue with Dia3.
It's sad to see that people fight non-intrusive DRM methods like internet authentification. I gladly take this over securom any day.
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I'll personally download it and play it just because of my disagreement with Blizzard no LAN policy, even though I buy their games (that is for SC2 and its expansions, the auction house and online only of D3 is really making me reconsider buying it at all)
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EPT
