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MLG Ranking Thoughts

Blogs > VGhost
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VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 17:43:43
August 29 2011 17:41 GMT
#1
It's been a fairly common complaint that the MLG ranking seems arbitrary and relatively inflexible. I don't necessarily take issue with the system on those exact points. It's MLG's event to run, and every tournament has its own quirks and problems. Given the year-long season of the event, MLG has to preserve some value in its earlier events, or no one would come. At the same time, the system is plain weird in certain respects, and I want to consider a couple of them.

Part I – System Quirks

Here's a table of the ranking points awarded each event:

MLG Point Tiers

Pool Tiers


Overall Mid-tier Drop
Tier Drop Point Spread Pct

Tier Placement 1 2 3 4

Semifinalists
1-4 xxx 1200 1000 900 800 (100) 100%-67%
Championship Bracket Winners
5-8 - 500 700 650 600 550 ( 50) 58%-46%
Pool #2 Losers
9-12 - 210 490 460 430 400 ( 30) 41%-33%
Pool #3 Losers
13-16 - 150 340 310 280 250 ( 30) 28%-21%
Pool #4 Losers
17-20 - 130 210 200 190 180 ( 10) 18%-15%
Pool #5 Losers
21-24 - 70 140 130 120 110 ( 10) 12%-9%
Pool #6 Losers
25-28 - 50 90 80 70 60 ( 10) 8%-5%

Bracket Tiers

OB Finals Losers vs LB Finals Winners Losers
29-32 - 50 40 30 20 10 ( 10) 3%-0.8%
LB Finals Losers
33-36 - 34 6 6 6 6 ( 0) 0.5%
LB Groups Finals R2 Losers
37-44 - 4 4 4 4 4
4 4 4 4 ( 0) 0.3%
LB Groups Finals R1 Losers
45-52 - 2 2 2 2 2
2 2 2 2 ( 0) 0.2%

Championship points multiply each of these figures by 1.5.


If you prefer, here's a graphical form:

[image loading]


Notice that the points awarded for each place drop really rapidly. This is the major factor which makes the rank inflexible. One high finish, and your only challengers are... other high finishers. If you pull down one #1 rank, and don't play at all the rest of the season, someone else needs 3 quarterfinal finishes to pull past you. This may be bad or good, depending... given the length of the season I think it tends to be less representative and weaken the final championship, especially given the (recent?) difficulty of the Open Bracket.

If you're not convinced, look at this:

[image loading]


When examining points awarded to any place as a percent of the total points given out, the curve becomes even more concave than the points chart. (For anyone who cares, a more flexible and "flat" points ranking of 52 people, such that #1 gets 52 points, #2 51, etc. gives the #1 finisher just under 3.8% of the total points and #52 about 0.07%. The top 13 players get a significantly smaller percentage in this scheme, after which the lines cross and all other players get anywhere from a little more to a lot more (the factor for #52 is around 3.5).

Another issue is that in general, I don't quite understand why the point separation within each tier of four players (beyond the medalists) is necessary. I see that pools need to be ranked for the next event. For that purpose, there are already possible systems. It seems most reasonable to me to rank by progress of opponent. E.g. for Raleigh's Pool #6 round losers (25-28), DeMuslim advanced furthest so TLO is #25. All other round winners were knocked out next round, so analyze those opponents: Hero > TriMaster > Machine, so Orly #26, Tyler #27, Drewbie #28. It's a nuisance to work out by hand, but setting up an algorithm to run results has to be easier than running the tiebreakers, right? It would also be completely logical to just rank them by match/game records. That's like falling-off-a-log easy.

Let's assume that point separation is necessary or beneficial. My guess is that it's supposed to inspire players to play their placement matches, but as far as I can tell many players still forfeit, or play the match without really trying that hard. Why is the spread so huge, especially at the top?

For those who don't visualize numbers easily, here's a graph:

[image loading]


What this means practically is that within each tier – approximately equivalent results, even adjusting for different difficulty of opponents (e.g. inControl vs Drewbie compared to Haypro vs Tyler) – the point spread between #1 and #4 is much greater than the spread between #4 in the tier and #1 in the next tier (e.g. #4 overall is closer to #5 overall than #1 or even #2 overall). Sure, the drop from one #3 to #4 is never larger than the drop from that #4 to the next #1, but the drop from #2 in a tier to #4 is always at least as large as the drop from that #4 to the next #1 (e.g. while #7 overall to #8 overall is smaller than #8 to #9, #6 overall to #8 is the same as #8 to #9).

(While I'm complaining about things, it's also weird is that even though the final rounds of the open (losers) bracket get ranked, the points awarded are so very few as to be worth essentially nothing. You might almost say they were pointless.)

tl;dr - MLG should
1) Remove the intra-tier ranking matches, and/or significantly reduce the spread from the mean of comparable results.
2) Consider flattening the overall ranking curve to reduce the inflexibilty of the rank, making movement easier over the season to better reflect current skill. Note: I don't advocate changing anything during the season, these are thoughts for next year, which I understand they're already looking at any way.

II - Thought Experiment

Format

How many rounds does MLG have? Someone who drops into the Losers Bracket immediately will play 21 matches if he somehow makes the final. A player who starts in the pools might play as few as 8 and can't play more than 15. An Open Bracket winner would play at least 14 matches if he makes the final and could play as many as 21. The following numbers are the number of matches by a player who reaches the final from a given position:

Pool #1 from Pool, Undefeated: 8
Pool #1 from Pool, Semi Loss: 9
Pool #1 from Pool, Pool Championship Loss: 10
Pool #2 from Pool: 11
Pool #3 from Pool: 12
Pool #4 from Pool: 13
Pool #5 from Pool: 14
Pool #1 from Open, Undefeated: 14
Pool #6 from Pool: 15
Pool #1 from Open, Semi Loss: 15
Pool #1 from Open, Pool Championship Loss: 16
Pool #2 from Open: 17
Open Bracket Loser: 17
Pool #3 from Open: 18
LB from OBR5: 18
Pool #4 from Open: 19
LB from OBR4: 19
Pool #5 from Open: 20
LB from OBR3: 20
Pool #6 from Open: 21
LB from OBR2: 21
LB from OBR1: 21

While there's nothing wrong with rewarding pool play – the opponents are generally harder, after all – the current format makes it so that if you want to win an MLG and can make it into a Pool, you can finish 4th in that pool – at Raleigh, mostly 2-3 – and have it easier than any Open Bracket player. Open Bracket losers have it easier than anyone who can't win a pool from Open – TriMaster and Hero should have thrown their final Open Bracket matches.

(This isn't a new problem for Starcraft tournaments, of course. A player coming from OSL prelims will play many more matches to make the final than a player seeded into the Ro16 who squeaked past that round at 1-2 and a tiebreaker win.)

In this case, however, it's not actually hard to fix.

Step One: Start with filled pools of 6.
Step Two: Seed Open Bracket winners above #6 finishers immediately (and possibly above #5s as well: the average OB pool player finish has been 3.42 out of 6 since the pools were expanded to 6 players. At Dallas, 3.25 out of 5 (4, 4, 4, 1)). (Alternatively keep the 5-player pools and seed OB winners above the #5s immediately instead of into pools.)
Step Three: Profit! OB players still play more games than all but the worst pool players. If seeded above the #6s only, #6 and OB winners play the same number of matches. If seeded above the #5s as well, #5s and OBs play the same number of matches and #6s are "penalized" by having to play an extra match beyond that. Given the overall somewhat shaky record of OB players in pools I'm hesitant to seed above #5s, but there are also plausible arguments to be made.

Assuming MLG adopted the above procedure - for the sake of argument let's say seeding OB winners above #6s only - we get a tournament format like this:

Open	(Losers)		Pool

OB 1 Match 1
|------>LB 1A |
v | |
OB 2 | Match 2
|------>LB 1B |
| | |
v LB 2A |
OB 3 | Match 3
|------>LB 2B |
| | |
v LB 3A |
OB 4 | Match 4
|------>LB 3B |
| | |
| LB 4A |
OB 5 | Match 5 -------------------------
|------>LB 4B |
| | |
OB 6 LB Ro8 |
| | |
|-> OB Losers <> LB Winners |
\ \ v
\ \______________><-----------------------------Pool #6
\ |
\___________________OB Winners .-Pool #5
| |-Pool #4
| |-Pool #3
Pool #5-----------------------|-Pool #2
| | Pool #1
Pool #4__| |
| | |
Pool #3__| |
| | |
Pool #2__| |
| |
Bracket Ro4 / Pool #1 <> Pool#1
| / |
Pool #1 Loser<------/ |
| |
CB Semi _____Pool Championship
| / |
PC Loser_/ |
| |
Bracket Winner <> PC Winner


Scoring

I started with a number of assumptions.

1. First place at an MLG event is 1200 points.
2. I am going to score all participants.
3. 0-2 receives a score of 0. No bonus points for showing up!

We know the maximum possible rounds to play is 22; however since a single win, in either the first Open or first Losers bracket has the same effective result (1-2, eliminated), I chose to use 21 rounds as the basis for my scoring. Then I picked a pretty small but popular number to represent progressing one round in the Open Bracket: 8. The base score for advancing to a given round is series sum from 8*1.1564^(n-1) which gives 1200 as the #1 score. I then rounded it off, so the final result:

Last Round Won: Total Score (Finish)
0. 0-2: No points (#217-280)
1. OB R1/LB 1A: 8 (#153-216)
2. LB 1B: 17 (#121-#152)
3. OB R2/LB 2A: 28 (#89-120)
4. LB 2B: 41 (#73-#88)
5. OB R3/LB 3A: 56 (#56-72)
6. LB 3B: 72 (#49-56)
7. OB R4/LB 4A: 95 (#41-48)
8. LB 4B: 120 (#37-40)
9. OB R5/LB Ro8: 145 (#33-#36)
10. LB Winners vs OB Losers: 180 (Event #29-32)
11. OB R6/LB Winners vs Pool #6 Play-In: 216 (Event #25-28)
12. OB vs Play-In: 260 (Event #21-24)
13. vs #5: 312 (Event #17-20)
14. vs #4: 370 (Event #13-16)
15. vs #3: 440 (Event #9-12)
16. vs #2: 525 (Event #7-8)
17. Bracket Ro4A/Pool #1 Games: 625 (Event #5-6)
18. Bracket Ro4B: 735 (Event #4)
19. Bracket Final/Pool Final: 865 (Event #3)
20. MLG Semifinal: 1020 (Event #2)
21. Final: 1200 (Event winner)

The initial dropoffs are very similar to MLG's current scoring; but by the #9-12 tier the points distributed are comparable to MLG's current distribution and after that they are above MLG's scoring for all places. (Not surprising since all players are scored.) Placing would be done as suggested above, by match/game score and then opponent finish. Alternatively, the placement matches could still be held (although impractical if scoring all players). Either way, players could be simply pointed by tier (as I've done here) or ranks within tiers could be spread around that as an average (e.g. #9-12 pointed at 410, 430, 450, 470) or other scale.

The top 32 players scores in this redone format, compared to MLG's current one:

[image loading]


The above is not in any way intended to be a be all and end all of discussion on the subject. I'm open to thoughts, discussion, comments, criticisms, and (above all) corrections – I'm not infallible. In fact as much as anything this is a half-assed defense of MLG: we get a lot of complaints in the forums, but very little analysis and even fewer suggestions of fixes that might be relatively simple to implement. Of course I'm also critical – it's hard to get anything improved if we just agree with each other all the time. But these are my thoughts on the subject – take or leave it as you will.

*****
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
August 29 2011 18:28 GMT
#2
Wow o.o that research is nuts lol, I can't entirely follow it but the basics seem to make a lot more sense. next years MLG system should be quite different though so this might nto even need to take place. Good work though.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 29 2011 18:51 GMT
#3
I totally agree that the system should reward consistent mid-tier finishes more. I do think that there should be a somewhat big reward for placing top 3-6 because it shows that you're "in the hunt" to actually win the whole thing, while a lot of people who consistently make top 30 aren't really threats to win.

I think the solution is a mix of what you're doing, and weighting results toward the end of the season slightly more (doesn't have to be huge, just enough so that one 6th place finish in May doesn't guarantee you a spot in the finals in November.
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
August 29 2011 18:55 GMT
#4
I don't get what you're saying with this post at all, they've already acknowledged that their points system needs work and are going to make changes for next season. flattening it slightly to give more points to those in the 20th-50th range works fine, as does not having as many players seeded into pool play - rather than 20 seeds and 4 from the open bracket, make it 16 and 8. easy.

On August 30 2011 02:41 VGhost wrote:

While there's nothing wrong with rewarding pool play – the opponents are generally harder, after all – the current format makes it so that if you want to win an MLG and can make it into a Pool, you can finish 4th in that pool – at Raleigh, mostly 2-3 – and have it easier than any Open Bracket player. Open Bracket losers have it easier than anyone who can't win a pool from Open – TriMaster and Hero should have thrown their final Open Bracket matches.


why? there is no reason to ever do that
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
Kraznaya
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3711 Posts
August 29 2011 19:05 GMT
#5
I don't believe mid level finishes, especially in the 16-24 range, should really be rewarded much at all considering how easy it is to get there if you are already seeded into a pool.
do you have enough resolve, hero of justice?
Ryalnos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1946 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 19:34:14
August 29 2011 19:28 GMT
#6
My impression from reading this post is that you've pondered over a lot of graphs/plots but ended up spending too much time thinking about minutiae (point distribution details) rather than the big issues such as the pool play/open bracket format (since many complain that it coddles players who consistently place last in pool play).

Sure, perhaps you could make it more fair than it is by making your suggested changes, but IMO it's somewhat wasted effort to expound upon the little details that would fix a system that is acknowledged as broken/inadequate and likely in need of a revamp that would make these little changes irrelevant by comparison.


Forgive me, this is the scientist in me speaking, I just prefer to think about the first order aspects of a problem before diving into the higher orders.
Gingerninja
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1339 Posts
August 29 2011 19:42 GMT
#7
Personally I think the bottom finisher in each group shouldn't get placed into the championship bracket at all, especially if they finish 0-5. How do you get placed at least top 28 by losing all of your games up to that point? Makes not one lick of sense.

Case in point Incontrol/Moonan vs Tyler.

Tyler ranked 28th went 6-2 (5-2 maybe.. got a bye in 1st) inc/moonan went 1-5 You can't say they (inc/moonan) deserved more points because they played higher ranked players.. they played them and lost! Playing doesn't equal winning.

All the players get 2 chances to lose and out (double elimination) except the pool players who can lose a total of 6 match's before they're out.

If MLG wants to have this silly pool play into knockout style, they need to remove that everyone from pool goes into the knockout stages.
戦いの中に答えはある
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 19:51:22
August 29 2011 19:48 GMT
#8
^ You can't compare Moonan and Incontrol's opponents to Tylers. Tyler had an easier time because the best are in the pools (barring korean open enterers) sure he faced a few semi pro players but he didn't face the caliber that was in the pool.

MLGs a test of endurance that's what makes it unique. It's like a gauntlet and I love that. The players might not but eh.

The point system is iffy but none the less it's working alright now no need to fix what isn't broke.
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
ShaneMac
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada56 Posts
August 29 2011 20:38 GMT
#9
The format works for other games because all the top teams show up consistently. While in sc2, most of the koreans show up for 1 single event, do well and place higher than some of the consistent group players, then don't show up the next event and their spots are given back to those players who seemingly don't deserve their seeds, such as machine/incontrol.

imo if you're not going to have the same top players compete consistently than this format doesn't work.
Gingerninja
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1339 Posts
August 29 2011 22:45 GMT
#10
On August 30 2011 04:48 Denzil wrote:
^ You can't compare Moonan and Incontrol's opponents to Tylers. Tyler had an easier time because the best are in the pools (barring korean open enterers) sure he faced a few semi pro players but he didn't face the caliber that was in the pool.

MLGs a test of endurance that's what makes it unique. It's like a gauntlet and I love that. The players might not but eh.

The point system is iffy but none the less it's working alright now no need to fix what isn't broke.


You don't have to compare the players... They LOST every game. ergo.. they are not good enough to be there. You shouldn't get points for turning up and losing to the best players in the world.
Everyone on this forum could do that.
They each beat one player.. a player that came from the open bracket. Therefore logic says they can beat open players, but they can't beat pool players. Same as Tyler. So he beat 6 of them, they beat 1 each. They get ranked ahead of him? He beat every open player he faced, and was knocked out by a pool player. They lost to every pool player they faced, and only beat an open player.
戦いの中に答えはある
Holykitty
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands246 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-30 01:21:07
August 30 2011 01:19 GMT
#11
On August 30 2011 04:05 Kraznaya wrote:
I don't believe mid level finishes, especially in the 16-24 range, should really be rewarded much at all considering how easy it is to get there if you are already seeded into a pool.



that can be fixed in an easier way though. for example you could just simply only seed the top 12 into pools and then take more people from the bracket into pool play, or similar ideas.

it being too easy to stay in the pools is nothing to do with point distribution. if you penalize people who finish 20th because they can get there from 0-5íng their pool is harsh on someone like drewbie who storms the open bracket then goes out to incontrol.

this isnt a comment on either player the point is that drewbie earned his reasonable finish, and he would be hit as collateral for any point system based off your opinion that someone might not earn their place.

its also worth pointing out though that for someone like drewbie, the first 3-4 open rounds might be very very easy games, almost not worth mentioning for a pro player. from that point of view he hasnt played any more games than incontrol, and they are still far worse players than incontrol has to deal with. meaning a 5-0 for drewbie in open and a 0-5 for incontrol doesnt reflect on which of them is the better players at all, you cant blindly punish incontrol for an apparent shit score.

again, im not trying to pick on either player and im sure u can find a counter example, the point is merely sorting a score system based on your opinion or a hypothetical isnt a good basis for the system.
Where there's smoke, there's me
cdnfan
Profile Joined July 2011
30 Posts
August 30 2011 04:46 GMT
#12
interesting points. also interesting to look at the overall rankings at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Rankings, especially those who have attended all of the 2011 MLG events. For example, Sjow is #6 in cumulative points but has placed 12th, 13th, 10th and 8th in the four events this year (Idra would be an even better example, but don't want to go there...) Drewbie is now ranked 28th and his showings are 11th, 23th, 27th and 27th. I hope that this thread elicits some good discussion that might encourage MLG to revisit the weighting and seeding. thanks for starting this thread, VGhost.
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3613 Posts
August 30 2011 11:47 GMT
#13
On August 30 2011 04:28 Ryalnos wrote:
...it's somewhat wasted effort to expound upon the little details that would fix a system that is acknowledged as broken/inadequate and likely in need of a revamp that would make these little changes irrelevant by comparison.

Forgive me, this is the scientist in me speaking, I just prefer to think about the first order aspects of a problem before diving into the higher orders.


See, I don't think the system is broken, just somewhat flawed: format could be tweaked, scoring could be improved, etc. etc. That's what I'm looking at here. Really what I'd like to see is only 16 in pools, and then bracket seeding working essentially as I've done it here, but can MLG do 12 seeds and 4 invites, from a practical standpoint?

MLG's format is fairly unique just because of the existence of the open competition: above all that has to be maintained IMO and so seeding works around that.

On August 30 2011 03:55 sixfour wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2011 02:41 VGhost wrote:
...TriMaster and Hero should have thrown their final Open Bracket matches.


why? there is no reason to ever do that


I obviously didn't been should in the moral sense - I was saying that in retrospect from a difficulty perspective they would have been better off not having to work through pools since they just lost.

On August 30 2011 05:38 ShaneMac wrote:
The format works for other games because all the top teams show up consistently. While in sc2, most of the koreans show up for 1 single event, do well and place higher than some of the consistent group players, then don't show up the next event and their spots are given back to those players who seemingly don't deserve their seeds, such as machine/incontrol.

imo if you're not going to have the same top players compete consistently than this format doesn't work.


So the incentives (scoring) need to be changed to encourage top players to show up more often.

On August 30 2011 13:46 cdnfan wrote:
interesting points. also interesting to look at the overall rankings at MLG to revisit the weighting and seeding. thanks for starting this thread, VGhost.


I understand that MLG is already doing system reviews to revise the things that aren't working. TBH there's only one big big flaw, as far as competition goes, and that's the problem where the Open Bracket pool players get the worst deal in the tournament. Scoring needs help though.
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
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