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On August 21 2011 07:53 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 07:47 Probe1 wrote:
"I like to be able to talk to my viewers in real time" is what I read for no delay Rekrul Yeah talking to your fan-boys in competitions is really the most important issue. Making sure you don't get cheated isn't that big of a deal yo...
I agree completely. if you are just laddering then who cares. but in a tournament where a lot of people are going to be watching... just take the time to put a delay on ur stream. it's not going to hurt and it might save you some trouble.
It's unfortunate but so is locking your door at night. lol
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On August 21 2011 11:44 MrArchy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 07:36 Darclite wrote:
Let's say you knew there was a very good chance that someone would shoot you today.
Let's say you had a button that made it impossible for someone to shoot you today.
You didn't press the button. You got shot.
Now, the person who shot you is bad. But why didn't you press the button? And the person who shot you would be charged with murder and punished. Your analogy is flawed.
Not if you can't prove it, which is the issue here.
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Now we know who else stream cheats. It's probably the person that defends stream cheaters.
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On August 21 2011 12:00 TDN3 wrote:
Now we know who else stream cheats. It's probably the person that defends stream cheaters.
You're right, just like how only a witch would defend another witch and only a communist would defend another commie bastard.
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On August 21 2011 11:09 ShaperofDreams wrote:Show nested quote +
I don't think you are understanding the argument at hand here. Not to mention your analogies quite off.
I haven't seen a post that said "Stream cheating isn't bad at all, it's 100% legit!". If you misconstrued something someone said to that, oh well. But the argument here is that by streaming without delay, you should expect to be stream-cheated from time to time. That isn't saying that stream-cheating is OK, but rather that it is your own fault. If you are worried about stream-cheaters, then use a delay if your ladder points are that important to you.
Streaming a tournament without a delay(I would go so far as to say that streaming a tournament from your perspective period) is simply ASKING for it. Money is on the line, and people will do what they can to better their chances of acquiring that money. If that means stream-cheating, then so be it. It will happen.
talking about fault is stupid/pointless. its all about what is acceptable or not in a community, and what standards members of the community want. i'd ideally want TL to be a place of great respect and consideration. therefore i think its perfectly acceptable for people who stream-cheat to be called out about it to a certain extent.
But the placement of fault is the topic at hand here. Poke made this blog to show that this is a calculated risk that streamers take; not what is ideal regarding stream-cheaters. Ideally, no-one would stream-cheat. I doubt anyone believes that stream-cheaters have acceptable behavior despite the fact that it is an advantage streamers willingly give up. Throwing a fit because someone took this advantage the streamer gave out is a waste of time, because it will accomplish nothing. The people who are streaming know they can be taken advantage of, and they have plenty of ways to counteract them(black screens/stream delay/etc).
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If i am to stream cheat I would log off before doing so.
I thank all the high profile streamers for streaming their games, and those who participated the tournament honestly.
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Let's not forget there are plenty of people with undetected and undetectable map hacks who are cheating you whether you stream or not. Nothing you can do about it, so no point in worrying about it.
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On August 21 2011 09:11 ShaperofDreams wrote:
That doesn't make any sense, you could say the same as "oh when you ladder you knowingly take the risk that someone map-hacks, therefore you shouldn't complain if it happens".
Well no, you can't control if someone maphacks against you. But you can definitely control if someone stream cheats against you ( by not streaming or setting a delay)
Stream cheating is dirty of course. But streaming important matches and then being paranoid about it and starting a witch hunt is not the smartest thing either.
Anyway, does it make a big difference whether the guy was logged in chat or not or whether he had dragon's stream open?
If someone really wanted to cheat, he could have had his friend on skype with him or on the phone. Or even have dual monitor set up. The only solution if you want to make sure people don't stream cheat is don't stream or stream with delay. Period.
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United States10774 Posts
On August 21 2011 14:09 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 09:11 ShaperofDreams wrote:
That doesn't make any sense, you could say the same as "oh when you ladder you knowingly take the risk that someone map-hacks, therefore you shouldn't complain if it happens".
Well no, you can't control if someone maphacks against you. But you can definitely control if someone stream cheats against you ( by not streaming or setting a delay) Stream cheating is dirty of course. But streaming important matches and then being paranoid about it and starting a witch hunt is not the smartest thing either. Anyway, does it make a big difference whether the guy was logged in chat or not or whether he had dragon's stream open? If someone really wanted to cheat, he could have had his friend on skype with him or on the phone. Or even have dual monitor set up. The only solution if you want to make sure people don't stream cheat is don't stream or stream with delay. Period.
If you have to prevent stream cheating by not streaming, then one could argue that you could avoid ladder maphackers by not laddering. Unless you don't ladder, you can't complain about ladder maphackers?
In response to the OP, I don't understand the logic here. Because a streamer decides to stream regardless of the potential cheating, now the cheating is partially his fault? I disagree. It's 100 percent the stream cheater's fault. Trusting the community and taking a risk don't make stream cheating your fault. That's like saying partial blame of a bank robbery is on me for putting my cash in the bank despite knowing the risk of it getting robbed and making it possible for someone to rob it.
Now, I certainly agree that streamers should take some precautions to avoid cheating. Don't stream competitive matches. Delay your stream.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On August 21 2011 14:36 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 14:09 dtz wrote:On August 21 2011 09:11 ShaperofDreams wrote:
That doesn't make any sense, you could say the same as "oh when you ladder you knowingly take the risk that someone map-hacks, therefore you shouldn't complain if it happens".
Well no, you can't control if someone maphacks against you. But you can definitely control if someone stream cheats against you ( by not streaming or setting a delay) Stream cheating is dirty of course. But streaming important matches and then being paranoid about it and starting a witch hunt is not the smartest thing either. Anyway, does it make a big difference whether the guy was logged in chat or not or whether he had dragon's stream open? If someone really wanted to cheat, he could have had his friend on skype with him or on the phone. Or even have dual monitor set up. The only solution if you want to make sure people don't stream cheat is don't stream or stream with delay. Period. If you have to prevent stream cheating by not streaming, then one could argue that you could avoid ladder maphackers by not laddering. Unless you don't ladder, you can't complain about ladder maphackers?
Worst analogy ever possible lol 바보
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United States10774 Posts
On August 21 2011 14:42 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 14:36 OneOther wrote:On August 21 2011 14:09 dtz wrote:On August 21 2011 09:11 ShaperofDreams wrote:
That doesn't make any sense, you could say the same as "oh when you ladder you knowingly take the risk that someone map-hacks, therefore you shouldn't complain if it happens".
Well no, you can't control if someone maphacks against you. But you can definitely control if someone stream cheats against you ( by not streaming or setting a delay) Stream cheating is dirty of course. But streaming important matches and then being paranoid about it and starting a witch hunt is not the smartest thing either. Anyway, does it make a big difference whether the guy was logged in chat or not or whether he had dragon's stream open? If someone really wanted to cheat, he could have had his friend on skype with him or on the phone. Or even have dual monitor set up. The only solution if you want to make sure people don't stream cheat is don't stream or stream with delay. Period. If you have to prevent stream cheating by not streaming, then one could argue that you could avoid ladder maphackers by not laddering. Unless you don't ladder, you can't complain about ladder maphackers? Worst analogy ever possible lol 바보
Haha I realize it was a stretch but I just wanted to point out that you could say the same thing about laddering too. There are always things you can do to avoid potential outcomes such as cheating/maphacking (as extreme as it is in this scenario), but that doesn't mean the actual wrongdoing is your fault for not avoiding them.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
its a bad example though because in laddering theres nothing u can do to avoid hacking its up to the game maker or tourney maker to take measures to prevent it.....in this case u can just...not stream
u could leave ur money lying around in a hotel room and trust house keeping not to steal it cuz they r not supposed to...or you could put it in the safe? lol
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United States10774 Posts
On August 21 2011 15:22 Rekrul wrote:
its a bad example though because in laddering theres nothing u can do to avoid hacking its up to the game maker or tourney maker to take measures to prevent it.....in this case u can just...not stream
u could leave ur money lying around in a hotel room and trust house keeping not to steal it cuz they r not supposed to...or you could put it in the safe? lol
I mean I agree with your points, I never disagreed with them. I was not talking about how you can avoid such situations but rather in which cases the blame lies on you. Just like it's not your fault for laddering and getting maphacked, it's not your fault for streaming and creating a possibility for someone to stream cheat. This is what the OP tried to argue - that somehow stream cheating should be (partially) blamed on you. The wrongdoing is entirely the cheater's in my eyes. In both cases, the person getting cheated on or hacked on fully has the right to complain.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
i agree the person streaming themselves has the right to complain but only if they first admit they are idiots
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I am confused about how streaming ladder games can help someone unless they have a friend messaging them or the stream is being casted? How would having the stream up help a player unless they are playing on window mode and the game is only covering part of the screen (The stream would have to be on another part of their screen for them to see it). The exception, of course, would be if the stream cheater had dual monitors? But this is probably rare. Also, most people probably don't know the streamers...and most people probably wouldn't cheat anyways.
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On August 21 2011 11:56 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 11:44 MrArchy wrote:On August 21 2011 07:36 Darclite wrote:
Let's say you knew there was a very good chance that someone would shoot you today.
Let's say you had a button that made it impossible for someone to shoot you today.
You didn't press the button. You got shot.
Now, the person who shot you is bad. But why didn't you press the button? And the person who shot you would be charged with murder and punished. Your analogy is flawed. Not if you can't prove it, which is the issue here.
what if the person was seen holding a gun at the scene, but you cant prove they actually shot. what if the person did the same with two other victims. What if after the fact you can see very suspicious behavior on tape ( apm drops in replay).
He might have streamcheated or he might not have streamcheated. The evidence that he did though is pretty strong. He even uses that jtv id to stream himself so no trolling there. Even if he DIDN'T streamcheat. the BEST EVIDENCE we could ever hope for against a streamcheater is laid out in front of us and we still don't ban, when can we ever ban then? just dq him for the idiocy of leaving the stream open in the background, but dismissing the people that request he be banned or dq'd is dishonest and lays the blame with the person who actually tries to do something for the community and his fans.
There is a reason dragon became immensely popular in a short amount of time, its because he interacts with his fans so much. punishing players like that should be the least of our priorities, on the contrary, these players with personality are bringing more people into the scene.
/endrant
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On August 21 2011 07:34 starmeat_ wrote:
Why do I get the feeling Pokebunny is trying to justify his bad (past?) habit of stream cheating.
Stream cheating shouldn't be taken lightly, especially if ESPORTS wants to gain some sense of acceptability within soicety.
"I think many stream watchers completely blow stream cheating out of proportion"
This was a competitive match.
I think I should clarify.
If the person you are playing is streaming on their own channel then it should be a non-issue. You are practically inviting players to do it.
If its a tournament where you have other people casting it. Then, yes I agree. It's a form of cheating.
There are two different scenarios in play here.
I do think people jump the gun quite a lot on such things.
On August 21 2011 20:19 zeru wrote:
Every streamer knows that there is a risk of streamcheating, yes. Blaming losing on streamcheating when streaming a tournament without delay without really having any proof, yes, pretty stupid.
But that doesn't mean nothing should be done when a stream cheater gets caught. Not enforcing their own rules is something i'll never respect from a tournament admins.
Most of OP sounds like nonsense, especially since there is as much proof as there can be for a situation like this. Disgusting that people are calling for a ban from the tournament when he broke the rules? If anything its disgusting that people are ok with rules being broken, especially one like that.
Just because someone whos "known" in the community makes a long post approving of rule breaking suddenly people change their minds about whats ok and not ok. Such lemmings who can't think for themselves.
Agreed.
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On August 21 2011 15:22 Rekrul wrote:
its a bad example though because in laddering theres nothing u can do to avoid hacking its up to the game maker or tourney maker to take measures to prevent it.....in this case u can just...not stream
u could leave ur money lying around in a hotel room and trust house keeping not to steal it cuz they r not supposed to...or you could put it in the safe? lol
Sure there is...don't ladder.
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On August 22 2011 04:14 Turenne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 15:22 Rekrul wrote:
its a bad example though because in laddering theres nothing u can do to avoid hacking its up to the game maker or tourney maker to take measures to prevent it.....in this case u can just...not stream
u could leave ur money lying around in a hotel room and trust house keeping not to steal it cuz they r not supposed to...or you could put it in the safe? lol Sure there is...don't ladder.
This logic is so terrible I don't even...you basically said you can ladder and avoid hacking by not laddering. If A then B is not proven wrong with a statement of if not A then not B. You're only stating how to avoid hacking, not how to avoid hacking while laddering. Guess what, you can also avoid using gas when you drive by not driving and you can avoid learning logic when you go to school by not going to school. To add to Rekrul's example and apply your logic: you can avoid having money stolen by not having any money.
If you want to avoid hacking, then sure, don't play online games. ever. You can avoid annoying people by not interacting with humans ever again. But you're still going to aren't you? People are going to play in tournaments and ladder. They can't personally prevent people from hacking in game. That will happen. But they can personally prevent stream cheating by not streaming.
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EPT
