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Active: 1587 users

Defensive advantage in current gameplay

Blogs > Shiladie
Post a Reply
Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 19:45:02
August 18 2011 17:59 GMT
#1
copied my post from the 'designated balance discussion' post in the main boards as it follows the themes of previous blogs, Read 'Flux time and defensive advantage' for more info on this subject from a number of months ago.

I'd like to say that overall the balance of the game favors cheese and all-ins too much, and would benefit greatly from increased scouting ability and defensive advantage.
I believe the reason there is such a massive terran dominance in korea is that the korean style of play is to take a cheese/all-in/timing build and perfect it to an absolute science. Terran has the best ability to defend against these kinds of aggression, and thus is able to play a more stable game overall.
That, on top of the fact terran has the most options in their cheese/all-in/timing builds that requires precise scouting and reactions to counter.

You can see the low defensive advantage for zerg and protoss by looking at their mirror matchups. Until infestors come out zvz is dominated by early all-in play, where if you miss the point that your opponent stops droning/pulls his drones from gas to mass speedlings, you can easily be caught off guard and lose without a fight. PvP is similar, where before colossus it's a game of stalker numbers and stalker micro.


I would say that the game would be a LOT better if every race were given better early game scouting, in the window after your scouting worker/overlord is chased out, and before obs/overseer. On top of that additional defensive advantage all round, make it an investment, but reactive, so if you scout the cheese/all-in/timing build you have the option of trading longer term econ/army for a solid defence that can be up in time. This will make the game a lot more like BW, where pressure builds were king, forcing the opponent to over-commit to defence early on to secure an econ lead going into mid/late game.
This will then raise the skill-cap immensely, as it will reduce the effectiveness of the pure all-ins where a player can have 100% of the game mapped out and increase the effectiveness of a reactive style of play.

I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this, as I know David Kim has made a brief comment along the same lines. I have hope that in HotS we see the game shift towards this and away from where the game is currently headed.



Edit:
additional stuff

Most people's complaints/whines about balance center around exactly what I'm are talking about, but instead of looking at the core of the problem everyone is nit picking each race/build. All this does is invite arguments from the race that you say is OP in whatever way instead of constructive discussion. If you want people to take your ideas seriously you have to set aside as much of your racial bias as possible and look at the bigger picture of game design.

I've found the practice of coming up with new mechanics/balanace changes to current units invites everyone to rage at the various things that can be found wrong with the ideas. Regardless I'll give it a try below:

A few statements about the races first:
As said above, a zerg who is given free reign with no pressure on them can drone/expand far faster then the other races and easily overpower their opponent. This forces you to pressure the zerg, but the mobility of the zerg forces means that any units sent out have a very small chance of making it out alive. This then means that the units you send out MUST do a decent amount of damage to the zerg before they die.

A terran base is nearly invincible to ground attacks once siege tanks come out due to the ability to sim city most natural expansions. This as well as the ability for terrans to deny scouting until obs/overseers and the vast amount of different options they have in terms of tech creates a volatile situation for P/Z. The P or Z players must prepare for a large number of possible attacks against them, while having next to no ability to attack the terran with anything but an extreme all-in (baneling bust). When terran moves out with the units/tech they chose, there is rarely enough time for P/Z to prepare reactively, so it becomes either a 'coinflip' or preparing a little for everything and relying on skill to survive (this is how nestea and other top zergs can survive vs terrans) This is why at lower skill levels terran is not dominating as much as upper skill levels, the games are simply the coinflip, where terran wins a number of 'free-wins' where the opponent does not scout them and doesn't prepare correctly at all, and a number of 'free-wins' for the P/Z when they either scout against a terran less skilled at denying scouts, or blind hard-counters the terran. This may create a 50% win-rate, but is not good gameplay.

Protoss has the warp-in mechanic. This mechanic is the defining feature of protoss balance, in the same way spawn larva is for zerg. Protoss are able to entirely remove the defensive advantage gained from reinforcement time at the adjusted cost of 100 minerals. This is because warp-in is not a decision or a loss, the only potential loss is the proxy pylon. Because of this ability Protoss gateway units need to be fundamentally weaker for their cost then they otherwise would be. Otherwise warp-gate all-ins would be entirely unstoppable. Simply think about how overpowered it would be to be able to warp in non-gateway units like voidrays immortals or colossus. Against zerg this enforces the all-in nature of attacks even more, as you need to continually reinforce your army to prevent it from being over-run in the field, especially if your army contains non-gateway units that you cannot afford to lose without doing major damage. In this way the strength of the protoss army pre 100+ food or colossus/HT has been tuned to expect the instant reinforcements.


What I would then suggest is better early game scouting options for P/Z preventing coin flips.
Hallucinate is the simplest way to provide this, but the requirement for warp gate research as soon as possible makes it impractical to get hallu before WG. WG also cannot have it's time reduced due to the strength of the associated timing pushes. What I would suggest is to make warpgate require a twilight council, but reduce the research time by 60 seconds. Then reduce hallucinate cost to 100/100/50 so it can feasibly be gotten within the window of having a cyber core but being unable to get warp gate.
For Z I would suggest overseers be morphable at hatchery, but they have only slightly faster speed then overlords until the lair upgrade. The reasoning here is a slightly faster overlord and the use of changlings. You may also need to increase changling health to 50 and/or have them launched at 7-9 range (and morph in the air as to not show on minimap if launched into sight range) to allow them to get the needed scouting before being killed.

Unfortunately I am in the same boat as blizzard with terran, I have no idea what they need and/or could use right now, as they have scans/reapers already.

On the front of defence, I keep coming back to spine crawler build time, but it cannot be increased for fear of offensive spinecrawlers dominating early zvz like they did in beta. The reason I want to do something with the spinecrawler is that it costs a drone and cannot be then used to attack the opponent after being built to defend, the only problem is that you cannot build them reactively once you see something coming. My first thought was to make transfuse or another queen ability speed up spinecrawler build-times, but queens right now are expected to be low energy, and pooling that much would be similar to simply building the spines in advance anyways. What I would like ideally is some way to spend more money/drones to have a spinecrawler faster, but only in your own base. For example spending 2 drones to make a spinecrawler build in 10 seconds, but somehow require a queen to do it so you can't do it on your opponent's creep. If anyone has any ideas here let me know...

For protoss they definitely need a way to fight off another protoss stalker army without simply having enough stalkers or a fast immortal. The immediate thought is a shield battery type building, but where it can be set to auto-cast and has 3-4 range, so early game you can sit near it and be fine, later game blinking back stalkers to it to recharge shields would be an excellent mechanic.

Again for T they have the defensive advantage they need already, the only think I think they need is a way to better deal with BF helions other then BF helions of their own. I'm at a loss right now for what, but if I think of something I'll post it...

*
Klaca
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
318 Posts
August 18 2011 18:03 GMT
#2
the macro mechanics cut out the mid game. there is no distinctive mid game in sc2 like there is in bw, the whole game moves at such a frenetic pace. because of the macro mechanics it is that all the races can create concentrated timings.
Aletheia27
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States267 Posts
August 18 2011 18:19 GMT
#3
This is ... contradictory... If these all-in timings were so great, wouldn't the race most capable of executing them be winning the most? Not the race with the most defense? I personally think Toss has better defense than terran due to forcefields and the easier early game scouting relation to responses.
I am that I am
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 18:30:27
August 18 2011 18:29 GMT
#4
On August 19 2011 02:59 Shiladie wrote:

I would say that the game would be a LOT better if every race were given better early game scouting, in the window after your scouting worker/overlord is chased out, and before obs/overseer. On top of that additional defensive advantage all round, make it an investment, but reactive, so if you scout the cheese/all-in/timing build you have the option of trading longer term econ/army for a solid defence that can be up in time. This will make the game a lot more like BW, where pressure builds were king, forcing the opponent to over-commit to defence early on to secure an econ lead going into mid/late game.
This will then raise the skill-cap immensely, as it will reduce the effectiveness of the pure all-ins where a player can have 100% of the game mapped out and increase the effectiveness of a reactive style of play.

IMO it's not that hard to scout out your opponent. I personally think the problems of the game are things like stimmed marines 1)Raping too hard against anything that doesn't have AoE and 2) Sucking too hard against AoE, also forcefields are a crutch, broodlord/infestors+ roaches need to be reworked, etc.

I'd put more detail into my reasonings and explanations, but it is completely pointless to throw out random ideas that would fix the game, because Blizzard doesn't read/care about them, and your specific change has a 0% chance of actually making it into the game (Even if the change were to make everything perfect), so meh
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Basically: If you have an idea about changing the game to improve balance, keep it to yourself, no one cares.
unit
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2621 Posts
August 18 2011 19:30 GMT
#5
On August 19 2011 03:19 Aletheia27 wrote:
This is ... contradictory... If these all-in timings were so great, wouldn't the race most capable of executing them be winning the most? Not the race with the most defense? I personally think Toss has better defense than terran due to forcefields and the easier early game scouting relation to responses.


you sir are forgetting about ghosts
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 19:34:52
August 18 2011 19:34 GMT
#6
Highground advantage means nothing once air units,observers or scan is used, which is bullshit(or if you just walk one unit up the ramp).

WriterXiao8~~
Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
August 18 2011 19:43 GMT
#7
On August 19 2011 03:19 Aletheia27 wrote:
This is ... contradictory... If these all-in timings were so great, wouldn't the race most capable of executing them be winning the most? Not the race with the most defense? I personally think Toss has better defense than terran due to forcefields and the easier early game scouting relation to responses.


All-in timings are so great that the race that can defend against them the best is winning most consistently, I fail to see how this is contradictory...
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
August 18 2011 20:41 GMT
#8
On August 19 2011 04:43 Shiladie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2011 03:19 Aletheia27 wrote:
This is ... contradictory... If these all-in timings were so great, wouldn't the race most capable of executing them be winning the most? Not the race with the most defense? I personally think Toss has better defense than terran due to forcefields and the easier early game scouting relation to responses.


All-in timings are so great that the race that can defend against them the best is winning most consistently, I fail to see how this is contradictory...


While your point about Terrans and all-ins corollates with the prevalence of Terrans in Korea, I'm not sure if you can make a statement about overall racial strength. Terran may be the most prevalent race, but it also feels like the most inconsistent race. Of the '3 Kings', MC, MVP and Nestea, MVP has the most wildly inconsistent results and while there are more Terran superstars, their results vacillate similarly.

While I can agree with most of your points, I feel that unit composition is greatly overrated. Even if you don't know what's coming (and you should), the response should almost always be the same. The issue with Terrans is not usually their unit comps, but their timings, which aren't always obvious even if you could see their whole base.

The impact of warpgates is overblown I feel. Yes, they provide instant reinforcements, but that's meant to negate the defender's advantage, not overpower it. The one time warpgate units definitely aren't weak is the early game.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Swwww
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Switzerland812 Posts
August 18 2011 21:12 GMT
#9
Hongun Prime in GSTL doing allin's every game as toss suggests that it's not just Terran that can do this......

Either way its sad to see I wish the game was more about macro rather than hitting some dumb window....
"What is this TeamSupportGroup?" - mahnini.
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 22:08:59
August 18 2011 22:04 GMT
#10
On August 19 2011 02:59 Shiladie wrote:
You can see the low defensive advantage for zerg and protoss by looking at their mirror matchups. Until infestors come out zvz is dominated by early all-in play


I could comment on a lot, but I'll stick to this.

Infestors never "came out"; they always existed. It's not the game's fault that high level players didn't use them when zvz was almost exclusively a zergling/baneling war.

I'd be more willing to argue that korean terrans doing well is not because of defensive advantage, rather, the strategies used against them. For example, I feel that the ZvT strategy using ling/bane/muta is inefficient versus marine/tank (with or without a hellion opener) since it's too gas-heavy versus a mineral-heavy army.

As a zerg player, I agree that it would be nice if early game scouting were easier. On big maps it could be impossible to slip in an overlord versus an attentive player. It's not always about scouting the buildings or units to know what's coming, but even scouting the workers (which, for a lot of maps, can be done easily) will give you a good hint on what they're doing.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
August 18 2011 22:14 GMT
#11
It's pretty well known that defender's advantage is significantly less prominent than it was in BW. This is due to a variety of reasons, and unfortunately makes it so we see less variety in play because you really can't get away with much without being in danger of being all-in'd.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
saritenite
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Singapore1680 Posts
August 18 2011 22:30 GMT
#12
ZvT/P perspective.

Creep and Overlords are huge defensive advantages for Zerg. Being able to scout stuff a mile away AND have increased movement speed are massive advantages in both the positioning and information war.

Spread more Creep and Overlords about, especially in the mid-late game. A Zerg player who does not constantly spread Creep is just wasting his defender's advantage.
Cassel_Castle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States820 Posts
August 18 2011 22:39 GMT
#13
I'd like to see more terrain-based gameplay in general, maybe slower speeds for moving uphill, terrain like forests that infantry can move through but not vehicles, hills and small mountains that work like Xel'Naga towers, etc.
saritenite
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Singapore1680 Posts
August 18 2011 22:54 GMT
#14
On August 19 2011 07:39 Cassel_Castle wrote:
Maybe slower speeds for moving uphill,


Won't make much of a difference.


Terrain like forests that infantry can move through but not vehicles


Pretty good idea.


Hills and small mountains that work like Xel'Naga towers, etc.


This can be arranged with an invisible doodad, I wager.
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