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Active: 31255 users

Pronouncing "XiGua" - Page 3

Blogs > Kraznaya
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conTAgi0n
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 21:49:24
August 16 2011 21:25 GMT
#41
On August 16 2011 22:50 MaGariShun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 20:48 conTAgi0n wrote:
Ignoring the implication that there is a proper way to use the Roman alphabet, the eccentricities of English spelling have nothing to do with why people don't intuitively understand how XiGua should be pronounced.

You just say that like it's a proven fact. Of course there are other problems with romanization too, but an English speaker (americans even more so it seems, because of their pronounciation), who is pronouncing the very same characters differently than say a french, german, italian etc., will obviously have problems reading something romanized using the "standard" (note the quotes) pronounciation of the latin alphabet. I am not saying english speakers are using the characters "wrong", but they need to understand that their pronounciation is not the common one and is in fact very specific to their language.
Using a romanization for english speakers, like proposed in the OP, will only help english speakers and confuse almost every other language that uses the roman alphabet.

Keep in mind that it's not just English that's different - there is plenty of variation in how the Roman alphabet is pronounced between other languages that use it as well.

Also, the point is that a Romanization doesn't use "standard" pronunciation of the Roman alphabet, but assigns sounds from the Romanized language to the Roman alphabet. For ease of use the Romanized sound is generally matched to the letter that most closely matches its pronunciation, but there isn't always a good match - look at "c" or "x" or even "e" in pinyin. Precision is more important than intuitiveness in Romanization systems.

An Anglicization, like "shee gwa", is not a Romanization for English speakers but something else entirely. An Anglicization approximates the sounds made in the original language as closely as possible using English sounds and English spellings. It is for laymen and emphasizes intuitiveness above precision. It is sometimes useful for giving someone without training in a Romanization system a rough idea of how something is pronounced, but because it lacks the precision and universality of a Romanization system it is not nearly as useful for anyone who does have training in the language, English speaker or otherwise.



As for the whole "x" debate, non-Chinese speakers should first realize that there are two "sh" sounds in Chinese, if you will: "sh" and "x" in pinyin. Your tongue should roll back when pronouncing "sh" (sounds produced this way are called retroflex consonants), and is pretty much exactly the same as the English "sh" in words like "she" or "shop". The "x" sound sounds most like "sh" in English, but without rolling back your tongue back. That's the best way I can describe it; it's not a hard sound to make, but there's no real English equivalent.

The source of the debate here I think is that pronunciation in Mandarin varies across China and Taiwan. For example, in the south they tend not to use the retroflex "sh" sound, so whereas 是 in what is usually thought of as standard Mandarin pronunciation would be written as "shi" in pinyin, in the south they will often pronounce it as "si" in pinyin. As saritenite explained, "watermelon" in one common accent would be pronounced with a "see" sound rather than the "x" sound as I described it, though my explanation of the "x" sound is usually considered more standard. Neither is wrong though.

On August 17 2011 00:58 SarR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 17:21 rauk wrote:
On August 16 2011 17:19 SarR wrote:
Reading this blog reminds me of how curious I was about the correct pronunciation of "XiaOzl". How would that be pronounced anyway ?


its pronounced 小子

what ?

The pinyin is xiǎozi. xiǎo has a dipping tone (can't think of a better description), zi has no tone. If you don't know tones don't bother with them unless you start studying Chinese, just know they exist. It could be Anglicized very roughly as "shyeeow dzuh", where "ow" sounds like the vowel in "ouch".
Soulish
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1403 Posts
August 16 2011 21:37 GMT
#42
On August 16 2011 17:41 The_LiNk wrote:
Foreigners will still pronounce it wrong because they don't know tones.

No tones in xigua so it's all good
me all in, he drone drone drone, me win
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 22:04:47
August 16 2011 21:57 GMT
#43
On August 17 2011 06:37 Soulish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 17:41 The_LiNk wrote:
Foreigners will still pronounce it wrong because they don't know tones.

No tones in xigua so it's all good


what, there are tones. they're just flat ("monotone" like others called it), so I guess they shouldn't be a problem (if that's your original point).

also "X" is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_fricative

basically, pronounce "see" in English, but instead of the "s" sound, push up the middle of your tongue so that the middle of your tongue contacts the roof of your mouth instead of the tip of the tongue touching your teeth.

"x" and "q" in Chinese are pretty amusing to watch foreigners pronounce the "q" sound is similar to "x," except at the beginning of the sound, touch the tip of your tongue to the top of your mouth.
Writer
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
August 16 2011 22:06 GMT
#44
Mmmm, 西瓜 tastes good. Could go for some right now.
God Bless
XiGua
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden3085 Posts
August 16 2011 22:21 GMT
#45
Hey, stop talking about me! Oh wait, you are talking about that guy... That Zerg dude.
Anyways, gonna grab some 西瓜!
Btw, I prefer being called "Psygewah", that's what imba.tv calls me.
Sigh... Guess I got to win more stuff to get recognized more than (Z)XiGua... ATLEAST I AM MASTERS!

I thought this blog was about me at first.
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) APM, Why u make me spam?
aisight
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States145 Posts
August 16 2011 23:50 GMT
#46
This was an amusing blog that made me extra self-conscious about my pronunciation.
ecaesar
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada106 Posts
August 17 2011 01:53 GMT
#47
Are we really arguing over shee vs see >.> If you say both, a chinese speaker will understand both. The purpose of the word is to communicate the object WATERMELON.

But to add to the argument, the traditional Mainland Chinese pronunciation is shee/shi. See is spoken in Taiwan sometimes, Singapore, etc etc.

Really though, can we just stop Anglicizing the words? Pingyin was created for a reason
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
August 17 2011 02:03 GMT
#48
1. learn pinyin
2. xi1 gua1 suddenly makes sense ^_^

she goo'a

I love it when foreigners try to say Zh, X, and Q, they get so confused. I mean, they butcher everything else too, but their faces twist when they have to say Zh, X, and Q.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
ecaesar
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada106 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 02:13:54
August 17 2011 02:06 GMT
#49
On August 17 2011 11:03 Cambium wrote:
1. learn pinyin
2. xi1 gua1 suddenly makes sense ^_^

she goo'a

I love it when foreigners try to say Zh, X, and Q, they get so confused. I mean, they butcher everything else too, but their faces twist when they have to say Zh, X, and Q.

Chinese and Korean has more tonal sounds than most latin derived languages. I don't think other languages can make a poem with only variations of shi

I'd also like to note that a lot of people learn language pronouciation by relating it back to their original language. E.g, an american learning to pronounce watermelon in chinese would be relating to Shee gwa or whatever his/her book is teaching. It's better to learn the language in relation to its own written text, so people pronounce 西瓜 as what it is. You don't see Chinese english speakers respell english words into PingYin....
PartyBiscuit
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada4525 Posts
August 17 2011 02:30 GMT
#50
On August 16 2011 23:36 fOrQQ wrote:
In Cantonese it is pronounced "Sai Gwa" :D

Word mate, *high five* I'm just going to leave this party now.
the farm ends here
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
August 17 2011 02:37 GMT
#51
I think it's useless to debate over an Anglicization as there is no letter to represent this consonant.
xi pronunciation is halfway between "see" and "shee".
ॐ
Soulish
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1403 Posts
August 17 2011 03:36 GMT
#52
On August 17 2011 06:57 ]343[ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 06:37 Soulish wrote:
On August 16 2011 17:41 The_LiNk wrote:
Foreigners will still pronounce it wrong because they don't know tones.

No tones in xigua so it's all good


what, there are tones. they're just flat ("monotone" like others called it), so I guess they shouldn't be a problem (if that's your original point).

also "X" is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_fricative

basically, pronounce "see" in English, but instead of the "s" sound, push up the middle of your tongue so that the middle of your tongue contacts the roof of your mouth instead of the tip of the tongue touching your teeth.

"x" and "q" in Chinese are pretty amusing to watch foreigners pronounce the "q" sound is similar to "x," except at the beginning of the sound, touch the tip of your tongue to the top of your mouth.

Are you trying to teach me my native language xD

Yea there's the flat tone but it's a lot easier to enunciate than the 2 3 4 tones
me all in, he drone drone drone, me win
Mikepaschall
Profile Joined June 2017
1 Post
June 30 2017 05:32 GMT
#53
Its pronounced watermelon ...
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