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Lost BW knowledge?

Blogs > [F_]aths
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[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 19:32:47
July 12 2011 19:30 GMT
#1
If I could pick a single game I can take on lone island just for me, it would be Diablo 2. (If I could pick more games, I would also include Fallout 1 and 2 and Planescape: Torment.)

If I could pick a single game I can take on a lone island where also a friend will live the rest of his life, it would be Starcraft: Broodwar.

The BW forum has a thread called "Guide for players switching from SC2". This incited me to write a blog I wanted to write since the release of the new game.


While of course Broodwar will be played as long as an online service is active, the BW pro scene will probably phase out when the second SC2 expansion was released. This is a bold statement and I don't even mind to back it up with detailed arguments because I think it is obvious, that the BW pro scene is currently in its final state. Whoever goes into the RTS pro scene now, will most likely pick SC2 and not BW. Without fresh blood, BW is doomed.

SC2 managed to kill two games. Even two Blizzard games, BW and WC3. SC2 managed to be successful outside of Korea.

Now over 10 years of pro gaming led to a lot of knowledge about Broodwar. It still is not sure that SC2 can maintain its current success. Maybe it will not be around for that long. It has not yet stand the test of time. The not-yet-proven and possibly inferior game kills the king? How can this be?

Yet, it does. I can understand the fear of BW players, that all their knowledge will be lost if BW is abandoned.

Because it is not just some knowledge, it is art. It is power. It is beauty. It is fundamental, as Broodwar is the best game humanity produced so far. It is larger than us. In short, Broodwar is important.

Map: Destination. The Protoss has just one cannon up and the zerg has six lings outside the Protoss' nat. Will he try a run by?

Map: Shattered Temple. The Protoss has 2 zealots. Wait, he already has 3 zealots. But who really cares? I personally don't even care about the 3D graphics. I never understood why RTS try to be 3D games. I approved Dune 2000 still using 2D graphics. (I also played Dune 2. Oh boy, I still remember the last mission of house Atreides ... group selection limit 12? No, one fucking single unit could be moved at a time.)

But we cannot pause the time. To cite my second-favoured book: To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die.

The Broodwar pro scene will die. We cannot avert it. The knowledge how to play the game will be lost. We cannot prevent it. While Broodwar dies, we live to tell the tale. Our mission is to keep the memory of Broodwar.

*
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
masami.sc
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States445 Posts
July 12 2011 19:34 GMT
#2
I didn't really understand your point too well, but I found this very sad and slightly poetic... was that your goal?
mmmmm...
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 19:41:44
July 12 2011 19:40 GMT
#3
Uhh you might want to rethink what you said... It is SC2 that is struggling with popularity in korea, not BW. BW has a budding video streamer, small tourney and viewer community, still one of popular games in pc bangs, high production value tournaments and the best casters. sc2 scene has none of those things, and with the blizzard financed business model is what could be called a "forced meme" in the imageboard community, and not sustainable as a non-subsidiary. Hence blizzard cutting their losses and embracing bw recently with the law suit. In short, HOTS is the chance for sc2 to actually establish itself in the korean community, not a killing blow to bw.
Aah thats the stuff..
TylerThaCreator
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States906 Posts
July 12 2011 19:42 GMT
#4
lol this blog is so one-sided and loaded. just another opinion of an old-school gamer who can't adjust to changing times.
aka SethN
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
July 12 2011 19:45 GMT
#5
Hi~ BW loyalist here. What is the point of all these numerous letters?
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 19:49:52
July 12 2011 19:49 GMT
#6
Map: Destination. The Protoss has just one cannon up and the zerg has six lings outside the Protoss' nat. Will he try a run by?

Map: Shattered Temple. The Protoss has 2 zealots. Wait, he already has 3 zealots. But who really cares? I personally don't even care about the 3D graphics. I never understood why RTS try to be 3D games. I approved Dune 2000 still using 2D graphics. (I also played Dune 2. Oh boy, I still remember the last mission of house Atreides ... group selection limit 12? No, one fucking single unit could be moved at a time.)

This just shows how loaded your questions are. Who cares if he tries a run-by in either case? This is a set up simply because you have already assumed that we care what happens after the run-by. You just start talking about 3d graphics and yada yada yada. You don't even say why BW is the best game ever made by humanity. Frankly it seems like you merely don't want to get interested in something new, rather than wanting to stay with something that is good.
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6642 Posts
July 12 2011 19:50 GMT
#7
The BW scene is expanding at the moment, not dying...
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
July 12 2011 19:50 GMT
#8
On July 13 2011 04:40 xarthaz wrote:
Uhh you might want to rethink what you said... It is SC2 that is struggling with popularity in korea, not BW. BW has a budding video streamer, small tourney and viewer community, still one of popular games in pc bangs, high production value tournaments and the best casters. sc2 scene has none of those things, and with the blizzard financed business model is what could be called a "forced meme" in the imageboard community, and not sustainable as a non-subsidiary. Hence blizzard cutting their losses and embracing bw recently with the law suit. In short, HOTS is the chance for sc2 to actually establish itself in the korean community, not a killing blow to bw.

Yeah exactly, I don't think SC2 is still a danger to BW like it was a year ago
Writer
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
July 12 2011 19:54 GMT
#9
On July 13 2011 04:34 masami.sc wrote:
I didn't really understand your point too well, but I found this very sad and slightly poetic... was that your goal?
I think we need to let go of things which will end while we should keep what can be kept.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
josemb40
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Peru611 Posts
July 12 2011 19:55 GMT
#10
quite nostalgic
wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
July 12 2011 19:59 GMT
#11
On July 13 2011 04:42 TylerThaCreator wrote:
lol this blog is so one-sided and loaded. just another opinion of an old-school gamer who can't adjust to changing times.
While I am so oldschool that I played the original Starcraft before Broodwar was even out (though I played campaign only) I actually embrace the changes, in the hope that we will get to the point where BW was – and farther.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 20:08:46
July 12 2011 20:07 GMT
#12
On July 13 2011 04:49 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
Map: Destination. The Protoss has just one cannon up and the zerg has six lings outside the Protoss' nat. Will he try a run by?

Map: Shattered Temple. The Protoss has 2 zealots. Wait, he already has 3 zealots. But who really cares? I personally don't even care about the 3D graphics. I never understood why RTS try to be 3D games. I approved Dune 2000 still using 2D graphics. (I also played Dune 2. Oh boy, I still remember the last mission of house Atreides ... group selection limit 12? No, one fucking single unit could be moved at a time.)

This just shows how loaded your questions are. Who cares if he tries a run-by in either case? This is a set up simply because you have already assumed that we care what happens after the run-by. You just start talking about 3d graphics and yada yada yada. You don't even say why BW is the best game ever made by humanity. Frankly it seems like you merely don't want to get interested in something new, rather than wanting to stay with something that is good.
As this is a blog, I state my opinion without proving it with science. I began to follow the BW scene very late, it was 2008. I came to Cologne to see the WC3 grand finals of the WCG. But what I saw in BW – I went to the BW games just to get a good seat for the following WC3 games – was insane. I began to watch ESL TV and saw any archived VOD that contains BW. Then I began to look at Youtube and watched even Korean VODs. I also watched the entire GOM TV Starcraft Invitational through VODs, casted by Tasteless (then with black hair.)

A Zealot in a Korean pro game means a lot. SC2 appears still random in large parts. If I see Jaedong versus Flash, I see no randomness. I don't even see Starcraft, I see just the play.

SC2 needs more time. In this time, BW will be all history. It's neither good nor bad, it's change.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
DorF
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden961 Posts
July 12 2011 20:12 GMT
#13
group selection limit 12? No, one fucking single unit could be moved at a time.)


Actually you could make all your units follow one unit and then A-move that one unit and you basically had infinite unit selection
I played it on some sega console recently at a friends house.
BW for life !
cava
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
United States1035 Posts
July 12 2011 20:16 GMT
#14
On July 13 2011 04:50 jello_biafra wrote:
The BW scene is expanding at the moment, not dying...


You are kidding yourself if you actually believe that.
cava!
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
July 12 2011 20:20 GMT
#15
On July 13 2011 05:16 cava wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 04:50 jello_biafra wrote:
The BW scene is expanding at the moment, not dying...


You are kidding yourself if you actually believe that.


Depends on how it is recieved in China, if it fails then it might be dying, if it works then yes BW is expanding.
WriterXiao8~~
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6642 Posts
July 12 2011 20:24 GMT
#16
On July 13 2011 05:16 cava wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 04:50 jello_biafra wrote:
The BW scene is expanding at the moment, not dying...


You are kidding yourself if you actually believe that.

OSL, MSL and Proleague are back in action, a couple new rookie leagues are being set up, nation wars is making a comeback and there's been an increase in tournaments with things like ISL.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 20:31:50
July 12 2011 20:29 GMT
#17
On July 13 2011 05:07 [F_]aths wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 04:49 Roe wrote:
Map: Destination. The Protoss has just one cannon up and the zerg has six lings outside the Protoss' nat. Will he try a run by?

Map: Shattered Temple. The Protoss has 2 zealots. Wait, he already has 3 zealots. But who really cares? I personally don't even care about the 3D graphics. I never understood why RTS try to be 3D games. I approved Dune 2000 still using 2D graphics. (I also played Dune 2. Oh boy, I still remember the last mission of house Atreides ... group selection limit 12? No, one fucking single unit could be moved at a time.)

This just shows how loaded your questions are. Who cares if he tries a run-by in either case? This is a set up simply because you have already assumed that we care what happens after the run-by. You just start talking about 3d graphics and yada yada yada. You don't even say why BW is the best game ever made by humanity. Frankly it seems like you merely don't want to get interested in something new, rather than wanting to stay with something that is good.
As this is a blog, I state my opinion without proving it with science. I began to follow the BW scene very late, it was 2008. I came to Cologne to see the WC3 grand finals of the WCG. But what I saw in BW – I went to the BW games just to get a good seat for the following WC3 games – was insane. I began to watch ESL TV and saw any archived VOD that contains BW. Then I began to look at Youtube and watched even Korean VODs. I also watched the entire GOM TV Starcraft Invitational through VODs, casted by Tasteless (then with black hair.)

A Zealot in a Korean pro game means a lot. SC2 appears still random in large parts. If I see Jaedong versus Flash, I see no randomness. I don't even see Starcraft, I see just the play.

SC2 needs more time. In this time, BW will be all history. It's neither good nor bad, it's change.

I agree, players need to get better so there aren't boring 1a blob vs blob battles, and it needs whatever BW had that made you feel that way. That's all that's different. As an aside, weren't there more random game elements in BW? Vulture mines, reaver scarabs, spawn positions, attacking uphill(not sure if that's a flat or random modifier), dragoon AI. I can't see how SC2 is random at all except for spawn positions.
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5600 Posts
July 12 2011 20:42 GMT
#18
I liked this blog, even though I don't agree that BW is dying.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
July 12 2011 21:14 GMT
#19
If you realize that the game so superior why aren't you playing it?
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 21:25:42
July 12 2011 21:20 GMT
#20
On July 13 2011 05:29 Roe wrote:
I agree, players need to get better so there aren't boring 1a blob vs blob battles, and it needs whatever BW had that made you feel that way. That's all that's different. As an aside, weren't there more random game elements in BW? Vulture mines, reaver scarabs, spawn positions, attacking uphill(not sure if that's a flat or random modifier), dragoon AI. I can't see how SC2 is random at all except for spawn positions.


Many people whined about the mechanics in SC2 being simplified to the point where anyone could 1a to victory - there you have the consequences of it. Wait for someone who actually will do everything to prove everyone he is the best and you will get the most omg moments you could ever imagine. If you feel the game is easy and simple, then take a look at the amount of people who think otherwise, be the first to break out from that mental prison. If you feel that even at the furthest point of the food chain it is still easy and simple, then there's no other mean of salvation for you than pure patience, because it will only take time. I'd love to see BW being popularized and played internationally again, in one form or another, but since it's not gonna happen and we are, in fact, relying on Blizzard's will, we should actually support them as much as we can while keeping a critical eye on them and let them know that we do know how we want the game to be played.

I can see how important it is to players to somehow salvage their knowledge about BW and not just abandon it. Myself, I'd probably stick to BW for some really long time before actually taking a longer break or switching. SC2 and BW differ enough for it to not be all that useful. Of course, the common strategy skills are there, mechanics are close to perfected and such, but it's just those countless hours of watching the same replay over and over to come to the conclusion that patrol here would be better than patrol there and would win the game which no one wants to be proven worthless after all.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
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