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Hey everybody. Now that the ladders are locked and it's become a cheese fest to spike MMR, I once again sat around and thought about my experiences in StarCraft II and Brood War. I know me thinking about anything scares some of you, but this isn't intended to be a flame blog or anything, just a curious observation that I hope you guys could discuss with me and figure out if I am thinking right or wrong.
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Okay well I've been thinking about it for a while now and I used to play Brood War alot back in the day. Never good enough to be a professional at it, but good enough to win games and hold my own against people better than myself. When I came over to StarCraft II I didn't think about it but every since Masters was released it started showing itself to me a bit. Also I watched alot of day9 and HD and Husky and they all seem to consider a "big push" being an army consisting of around 12-15 units. While playing my leagues(Silver) that didn't really seem to ever apply, except for a rare few individuals.
In Brood War, and I could be remembering this wrong but a "big push" to me usually consisted of about 8-12 units, being as how I think 12 was the max amount of units you could have in a control group at one time. It also seems to me that an army usually doesn't get higher than 20 units in matches with the professionals who have played Brood War professionally back in the day like Idra and Boxer and all of them.
In StarCraft II however, It seems to me that most people don't leave their base to attack until they have a minimum of 30+ units to attack with unless it's super early pressure like some sort of Barracks play. It's extremely rare when not encountering cheddar play that I have Small-numbers battles with my opponent.
What I was curious about, and something maybe you guys can help me with is:
Is it possible that the Brood War mentality of army size still exists in some players, such as the professionals, just being a habit from Brood War that less-is-more? On the same note, with StarCraft II becoming more and more popular, does that mean that those small unit plays like that will slowly become more and more obsolete, being consumed by the people who are only familiar with StarCraft II attacking their opponents, even for the first time in huge numbers?
What do you guys think on the subject? I would like to hear what you guys think. Thank you all for reading this and responding.
 
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Well, population in Star2 fills up more quickly than in BW due to worker saturation, queens, macro mechanics and the like.
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10387 Posts
I don't ever recall thinking 12 units was a big push, by anyone, ever, unless its super earlygame.. and I remember a lot of battles in BW being far bigger than just "20" units from each side.. what kind of BW have you been watching??
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Well pick any random day9 daily and someone will push out with like 12-15 units and you'll most likely hear him say like "Oh and now XXX is moving out with a fairly big army, let's see what YYY is doing to blah blah blah".
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20 units is really small >.>. Midgame lurker ling armies needed like 7 control groups..so thats like 86 units, but yes in general armies in bw were alot smaller, getting maxed in bw was quite the rarity
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10387 Posts
On July 08 2011 16:14 Megaliskuu wrote:
20 units is really small >.>. Midgame lurker ling armies needed like 7 control groups..so thats like 86 units, but yes in general armies in bw were alot smaller, getting maxed in bw was quite the rarity
unless its PvT lolol
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everyone loves turtles
also you don't see many timing attacks in sc2 because they haven't been figured out yet or more likely they don't exist at all except very allinish ones
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I think SC2 sounds right up Flash's alley, especially because he was the one who popularized the quick third/double armories/180+ food push.
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I think the phrase "big push" is often used in a relative sense, as in that's a really big push for this stage of the game. And which mentallity will become more popular will probably depend on which mentallity is more successful, more than on which mentallity is more intuitive to new comers if I understand you correctly.
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On July 08 2011 16:17 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 16:14 Megaliskuu wrote:
20 units is really small >.>. Midgame lurker ling armies needed like 7 control groups..so thats like 86 units, but yes in general armies in bw were alot smaller, getting maxed in bw was quite the rarity unless its PvT lolol
Haha true guess its different for us zergs xD.
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On July 08 2011 16:28 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 16:17 ArvickHero wrote:On July 08 2011 16:14 Megaliskuu wrote:
20 units is really small >.>. Midgame lurker ling armies needed like 7 control groups..so thats like 86 units, but yes in general armies in bw were alot smaller, getting maxed in bw was quite the rarity unless its PvT lolol Haha true guess its different for us zergs xD.
Well, happens sometimes in ZvT though, when you save up larva and minerals/gas to try to break a Turtle Terran(mech). But since Queen play is more popular now, I doesn't happen that often more anymore.
Also, TvT is often enough maxed. So in general, any match-up where at least one Terran is involved ^_^
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Well you need like +70 (+90 for zerg+queens )supply worth of workers in sc2 so that sucks up your supply.
and PvT is kinda turtle up till the 2-1 push or 3/3 on multiple bases with the use of extensive vulture harass.
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On July 08 2011 16:20 zobz wrote:
I think the phrase "big push" is often used in a relative sense, as in that's a really big push for this stage of the game.
this
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On July 08 2011 16:37 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 16:20 zobz wrote:
I think the phrase "big push" is often used in a relative sense, as in that's a really big push for this stage of the game. this
Listen to this man he's beaten boxer
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Yeah but for how short a majority of pro games go I think that "20 unit big push" is generally through half the game isn't it?
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On July 08 2011 18:02 drryworrx wrote:
Yeah but for how short a majority of pro games go I think that "20 unit big push" is generally through half the game isn't it?
Instead of asking such bad questions go watch some pro games, i think that'll help you understand a lot better.
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You ever hear the saying "If you don't have something nice to say don't say it?" You can either say yes I am right or no I am wrong and tell me why instead of trolling.
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On July 08 2011 18:11 drryworrx wrote:
You ever hear the saying "If you don't have something nice to say don't say it?" You can either say yes I am right or no I am wrong and tell me why instead of trolling.
No, you are wrong.
A almost every BW game has more than 20 units in it, i guess cheese and zvz can be excluded from this. But to say every game "seems to have" a max of 20 units in it just ridiculous.
I'm not trolling you by telling you to go watch some games to see what the threads been talking about first hand
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My first pressure is 8-12 units bro. Not any of that in my play.
Specifically PvZ I gotta wait for more because, frankly, it's dumb doing early game stuff where there could be masses of hidden speedlings. Before scouting information, you just plain don't know if you're gonna be crushed so you MUST wait for more units. Sure I'll take a watchtower and dick around with him, but the amount of units he can crank out at will regulate my aggression.
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On July 08 2011 18:07 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 18:02 drryworrx wrote:
Yeah but for how short a majority of pro games go I think that "20 unit big push" is generally through half the game isn't it? INSTEAD OF ASKING SUCH BAD QUESTIONS go watch some pro games, i think that'll help you understand a lot better.
Sorry, I just kind of took it as you being rude because of the part in caps.
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EPT
