There isn't much to say, really. I've been watching BW since 2006, SC2 since release, and see no discrepancies in army size (other than early aggression being more effective in SC2). Waiting to hit food cap and attacking has existed in BW since the beginning. A lot of pro player used 1-5 as unit control groups (meaning upwards of 60 units), and needed them all for big pushes.

Cr4zyH0r5e

Peru1308 Posts

July 08 2011 14:54 GMT

#22

Don't know about SC2, but in BW (TvP at least), I don't move out of my base with less than 3 control groups of units (~36 units) unless there's a timing window that I need to hit, by which I usually have around that unit count anyway. Also, unit count wise... Watch a TvZ (bio).

drryworrx

United States76 Posts

July 08 2011 19:41 GMT

#23

Well I know in SCII if a game goes for a long while eventually army size is going to be alot bigger, but watching the pro videos and how long they seem to usually last it just seems like a majority of their games only last long enough(a majority of the time) to have the small/medium sized army.

I mean like when people say "Oh yeah man, to defend against a 4gate you just get a handful of roaches and a couple spines and you'll crush his attack" and I'll get like 2 spines and around 12 roaches and I'll just get destroyed because he came at me with like 20 or so stalkers.

LlamaNamedOsama

United States1900 Posts

July 08 2011 19:59 GMT

#24

On July 09 2011 04:41 drryworrx wrote:
Well I know in SCII if a game goes for a long while eventually army size is going to be alot bigger, but watching the pro videos and how long they seem to usually last it just seems like a majority of their games only last long enough(a majority of the time) to have the small/medium sized army.

I mean like when people say "Oh yeah man, to defend against a 4gate you just get a handful of roaches and a couple spines and you'll crush his attack" and I'll get like 2 spines and around 12 roaches and I'll just get destroyed because he came at me with like 20 or so stalkers.

That's because pro 4gates strike much earlier and are more all-innish. In that case, your opponent's "4gate" was probably actually very delayed/late, in which scouting would have been optimal to see how much you would need [checking if he expanded, seeing the army pushing, etc.]

I think the reason you might see "less" units is that pro gamers are more prone to attack and put action in the game early, whereas silver league gamers are probably less confident and just sit around massing units.

drryworrx

United States76 Posts

July 08 2011 22:55 GMT

#25

Usually against a mass 4gate I either get destroyed or I barely hold it off. I mean I already have my expo up by the 8 minute mark, and usually it seems to me like if it's a small 4gate it usually comes around the 7 minute mark, and if it's a big one its between 8-9 minutes.

I can 90% of the time hold off a 4gate, but I still really don't know what to look for. Like the only thing that makes me think a 4gate is coming is all the energy saved up on cronoboost. To me alot of protoss openings look the same save for a forge FE or something. Is that true or am I just scouting too soon?

Daozzt

United States1263 Posts

July 08 2011 23:16 GMT

#26

In Brood War, and I could be remembering this wrong but a "big push" to me usually consisted of about 8-12 units, being as how I think 12 was the max amount of units you could have in a control group at one time. It also seems to me that an army usually doesn't get higher than 20 units in matches with the professionals who have played Brood War professionally back in the day like Idra and Boxer and all of them.

I'm about 90% sure you've never watched a game of BW before. Unless the games of BW you've been watching were WC3.

drryworrx

United States76 Posts

July 08 2011 23:38 GMT

#27

I have watched them, and I have played brood war. Never seen one where somebodies going all in with 40+ units though.

Kenpachi

United States9908 Posts

July 08 2011 23:39 GMT

#28

^^ LOL YOU NEVER SEEN A 6FACT PUSH????.. have you even seen Kwanro play? ??? ???? you are such a liar

i have the BW mentality. I still macro like its broodwar (I hotkey my buildings but i end up clicking on them anyways 1 by 1 -_-..
I play Turtle terran and i understand that terran is no longer the turtle race so i end up being punished for not punishing zerg (i vow that i will make banshees everygame)

Also, idra as a professional back in the day? What the fuck.. Its only been 2 years bro since he left.
Big battles would be the Terran Deathball vs the Protoss squish with arbiters ;l

xxpack09

United States2160 Posts

July 08 2011 23:53 GMT

#29

On July 09 2011 08:38 drryworrx wrote:
I have watched them, and I have played brood war. Never seen one where somebodies going all in with 40+ units though.

1) I have played brood war
2) I have watched a large number of progames
3) I have never seen a brood war game that involves a timing push with 40+ units

One of these statements is fundamentally incompatible with the other two.... can you guess which???

Megaliskuu

United States5123 Posts

July 08 2011 23:55 GMT

#30

I lack reading comprehension.

masami.sc

United States445 Posts

July 09 2011 00:04 GMT

#31

Back in the days... did you mean 1999?

FreshNoThyme

United States356 Posts

July 09 2011 00:14 GMT

#32

"It also seems to me that an army usually doesn't get higher than 20 units in matches with the professionals who have played Brood War professionally back in the day like Idra and Boxer and all of them."

I missed this golden nugget. Hah, now I know this is a troll.

drryworrx

United States76 Posts

July 09 2011 00:28 GMT

#33

Lol...it's nice how every word I say is taken as trolling. Sad.

I don't remember talking shit.

I don't remember PURPOSEFULLY saying something wrong.

I just talk based on what I see/have seen.

Sue me if I have better things to do than to watch a 40 minute replay.

koreasilver

9109 Posts

July 09 2011 00:40 GMT

#34

lol?

FreshNoThyme

United States356 Posts

July 09 2011 01:57 GMT

#35

On July 09 2011 09:28 drryworrx wrote:
Lol...it's nice how every word I say is taken as trolling. Sad.

I don't remember talking shit.

I don't remember PURPOSEFULLY saying something wrong.

I just talk based on what I see/have seen.

Sue me if I have better things to do than to watch a 40 minute replay.

You made claims that can only accurately be made with experience in the game. Your statements contradict this so much it is hard to believe you are being serious.

I felt like I was maybe a bit too harsh, until I read:

"Sue me if I have better things to do than to watch a 40 minute replay."

Why do people always fall back on such a childish argument?

You make a blog about wanting to discuss something, and then dismiss anyone wanting to discuss it, and then on TOP OF THAT, you claim to have "better things to do" than look into the very subject YOU MADE THE BLOG TO DISCUSS. Haha, WHAT?!

Also, you're factually wrong here again. Few games last until the 40 minute mark... very, very, very, very, VERY few. And if you're as familiar with the game as anyone making such assessments must be, you'd know this. Oh, and you'd know that you can run replays at a variety of speeds (hint: this means you could watch your elusive "40 minute replay" in a fraction of that time).

h3r1n6

Iceland2039 Posts

July 09 2011 01:58 GMT

#36

1. You say something blatantly wrong
2. You get called out on that
3. You keep on arguing about being right, even though pretty much everyone tells you that you are wrong.

And then you take offense when people think you are trolling? Creationist mentality right there.

endy

Switzerland8970 Posts

July 09 2011 02:50 GMT

#37

On July 09 2011 08:38 drryworrx wrote:
I have watched them, and I have played brood war. Never seen one where somebodies going all in with 40+ units though.

What are you trying to say here ? Of couse all-in means having a low eco, while having a lot of units means having a strong eco. It's just like saying "oh carrier sucks, they're not viable in 1 base play...

And even if I try to find some sense in your post, you are wrong. For example, Horang2's mass gates style PvZ is an all-in. That guy makes 10 gateways on two bases, keeps applying pressure without taking a third. He's got a shitload of units but if the zerg holds he's just dead.

edit : someone above me also posted the 6-fact push. Just watch some more BW pls.