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Hey everybody. Now that the ladders are locked and it's become a cheese fest to spike MMR, I once again sat around and thought about my experiences in StarCraft II and Brood War. I know me thinking about anything scares some of you, but this isn't intended to be a flame blog or anything, just a curious observation that I hope you guys could discuss with me and figure out if I am thinking right or wrong.
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Okay well I've been thinking about it for a while now and I used to play Brood War alot back in the day. Never good enough to be a professional at it, but good enough to win games and hold my own against people better than myself. When I came over to StarCraft II I didn't think about it but every since Masters was released it started showing itself to me a bit. Also I watched alot of day9 and HD and Husky and they all seem to consider a "big push" being an army consisting of around 12-15 units. While playing my leagues(Silver) that didn't really seem to ever apply, except for a rare few individuals.
In Brood War, and I could be remembering this wrong but a "big push" to me usually consisted of about 8-12 units, being as how I think 12 was the max amount of units you could have in a control group at one time. It also seems to me that an army usually doesn't get higher than 20 units in matches with the professionals who have played Brood War professionally back in the day like Idra and Boxer and all of them.
In StarCraft II however, It seems to me that most people don't leave their base to attack until they have a minimum of 30+ units to attack with unless it's super early pressure like some sort of Barracks play. It's extremely rare when not encountering cheddar play that I have Small-numbers battles with my opponent.
What I was curious about, and something maybe you guys can help me with is:
Is it possible that the Brood War mentality of army size still exists in some players, such as the professionals, just being a habit from Brood War that less-is-more? On the same note, with StarCraft II becoming more and more popular, does that mean that those small unit plays like that will slowly become more and more obsolete, being consumed by the people who are only familiar with StarCraft II attacking their opponents, even for the first time in huge numbers?
What do you guys think on the subject? I would like to hear what you guys think. Thank you all for reading this and responding.
 
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Well, population in Star2 fills up more quickly than in BW due to worker saturation, queens, macro mechanics and the like.
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10387 Posts
I don't ever recall thinking 12 units was a big push, by anyone, ever, unless its super earlygame.. and I remember a lot of battles in BW being far bigger than just "20" units from each side.. what kind of BW have you been watching??
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Well pick any random day9 daily and someone will push out with like 12-15 units and you'll most likely hear him say like "Oh and now XXX is moving out with a fairly big army, let's see what YYY is doing to blah blah blah".
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20 units is really small >.>. Midgame lurker ling armies needed like 7 control groups..so thats like 86 units, but yes in general armies in bw were alot smaller, getting maxed in bw was quite the rarity
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10387 Posts
On July 08 2011 16:14 Megaliskuu wrote:
20 units is really small >.>. Midgame lurker ling armies needed like 7 control groups..so thats like 86 units, but yes in general armies in bw were alot smaller, getting maxed in bw was quite the rarity
unless its PvT lolol
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everyone loves turtles
also you don't see many timing attacks in sc2 because they haven't been figured out yet or more likely they don't exist at all except very allinish ones
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I think SC2 sounds right up Flash's alley, especially because he was the one who popularized the quick third/double armories/180+ food push.
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I think the phrase "big push" is often used in a relative sense, as in that's a really big push for this stage of the game. And which mentallity will become more popular will probably depend on which mentallity is more successful, more than on which mentallity is more intuitive to new comers if I understand you correctly.
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On July 08 2011 16:17 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 16:14 Megaliskuu wrote:
20 units is really small >.>. Midgame lurker ling armies needed like 7 control groups..so thats like 86 units, but yes in general armies in bw were alot smaller, getting maxed in bw was quite the rarity unless its PvT lolol
Haha true guess its different for us zergs xD.
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On July 08 2011 16:28 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 16:17 ArvickHero wrote:On July 08 2011 16:14 Megaliskuu wrote:
20 units is really small >.>. Midgame lurker ling armies needed like 7 control groups..so thats like 86 units, but yes in general armies in bw were alot smaller, getting maxed in bw was quite the rarity unless its PvT lolol Haha true guess its different for us zergs xD.
Well, happens sometimes in ZvT though, when you save up larva and minerals/gas to try to break a Turtle Terran(mech). But since Queen play is more popular now, I doesn't happen that often more anymore.
Also, TvT is often enough maxed. So in general, any match-up where at least one Terran is involved ^_^
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Well you need like +70 (+90 for zerg+queens )supply worth of workers in sc2 so that sucks up your supply.
and PvT is kinda turtle up till the 2-1 push or 3/3 on multiple bases with the use of extensive vulture harass.
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On July 08 2011 16:20 zobz wrote:
I think the phrase "big push" is often used in a relative sense, as in that's a really big push for this stage of the game.
this
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On July 08 2011 16:37 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 16:20 zobz wrote:
I think the phrase "big push" is often used in a relative sense, as in that's a really big push for this stage of the game. this
Listen to this man he's beaten boxer
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Yeah but for how short a majority of pro games go I think that "20 unit big push" is generally through half the game isn't it?
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On July 08 2011 18:02 drryworrx wrote:
Yeah but for how short a majority of pro games go I think that "20 unit big push" is generally through half the game isn't it?
Instead of asking such bad questions go watch some pro games, i think that'll help you understand a lot better.
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You ever hear the saying "If you don't have something nice to say don't say it?" You can either say yes I am right or no I am wrong and tell me why instead of trolling.
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On July 08 2011 18:11 drryworrx wrote:
You ever hear the saying "If you don't have something nice to say don't say it?" You can either say yes I am right or no I am wrong and tell me why instead of trolling.
No, you are wrong.
A almost every BW game has more than 20 units in it, i guess cheese and zvz can be excluded from this. But to say every game "seems to have" a max of 20 units in it just ridiculous.
I'm not trolling you by telling you to go watch some games to see what the threads been talking about first hand
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My first pressure is 8-12 units bro. Not any of that in my play.
Specifically PvZ I gotta wait for more because, frankly, it's dumb doing early game stuff where there could be masses of hidden speedlings. Before scouting information, you just plain don't know if you're gonna be crushed so you MUST wait for more units. Sure I'll take a watchtower and dick around with him, but the amount of units he can crank out at will regulate my aggression.
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On July 08 2011 18:07 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 18:02 drryworrx wrote:
Yeah but for how short a majority of pro games go I think that "20 unit big push" is generally through half the game isn't it? INSTEAD OF ASKING SUCH BAD QUESTIONS go watch some pro games, i think that'll help you understand a lot better.
Sorry, I just kind of took it as you being rude because of the part in caps.
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There isn't much to say, really. I've been watching BW since 2006, SC2 since release, and see no discrepancies in army size (other than early aggression being more effective in SC2). Waiting to hit food cap and attacking has existed in BW since the beginning. A lot of pro player used 1-5 as unit control groups (meaning upwards of 60 units), and needed them all for big pushes.
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Don't know about SC2, but in BW (TvP at least), I don't move out of my base with less than 3 control groups of units (~36 units) unless there's a timing window that I need to hit, by which I usually have around that unit count anyway. Also, unit count wise... Watch a TvZ (bio).
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Well I know in SCII if a game goes for a long while eventually army size is going to be alot bigger, but watching the pro videos and how long they seem to usually last it just seems like a majority of their games only last long enough(a majority of the time) to have the small/medium sized army.
I mean like when people say "Oh yeah man, to defend against a 4gate you just get a handful of roaches and a couple spines and you'll crush his attack" and I'll get like 2 spines and around 12 roaches and I'll just get destroyed because he came at me with like 20 or so stalkers.
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On July 09 2011 04:41 drryworrx wrote:
Well I know in SCII if a game goes for a long while eventually army size is going to be alot bigger, but watching the pro videos and how long they seem to usually last it just seems like a majority of their games only last long enough(a majority of the time) to have the small/medium sized army.
I mean like when people say "Oh yeah man, to defend against a 4gate you just get a handful of roaches and a couple spines and you'll crush his attack" and I'll get like 2 spines and around 12 roaches and I'll just get destroyed because he came at me with like 20 or so stalkers.
That's because pro 4gates strike much earlier and are more all-innish. In that case, your opponent's "4gate" was probably actually very delayed/late, in which scouting would have been optimal to see how much you would need [checking if he expanded, seeing the army pushing, etc.]
I think the reason you might see "less" units is that pro gamers are more prone to attack and put action in the game early, whereas silver league gamers are probably less confident and just sit around massing units.
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Usually against a mass 4gate I either get destroyed or I barely hold it off. I mean I already have my expo up by the 8 minute mark, and usually it seems to me like if it's a small 4gate it usually comes around the 7 minute mark, and if it's a big one its between 8-9 minutes.
I can 90% of the time hold off a 4gate, but I still really don't know what to look for. Like the only thing that makes me think a 4gate is coming is all the energy saved up on cronoboost. To me alot of protoss openings look the same save for a forge FE or something. Is that true or am I just scouting too soon?
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In Brood War, and I could be remembering this wrong but a "big push" to me usually consisted of about 8-12 units, being as how I think 12 was the max amount of units you could have in a control group at one time. It also seems to me that an army usually doesn't get higher than 20 units in matches with the professionals who have played Brood War professionally back in the day like Idra and Boxer and all of them.
I'm about 90% sure you've never watched a game of BW before. Unless the games of BW you've been watching were WC3.
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I have watched them, and I have played brood war. Never seen one where somebodies going all in with 40+ units though.
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^^ LOL YOU NEVER SEEN A 6FACT PUSH????.. have you even seen Kwanro play? ??? ???? you are such a liar
i have the BW mentality. I still macro like its broodwar (I hotkey my buildings but i end up clicking on them anyways 1 by 1 -_-..
I play Turtle terran and i understand that terran is no longer the turtle race so i end up being punished for not punishing zerg (i vow that i will make banshees everygame)
Also, idra as a professional back in the day? What the fuck.. Its only been 2 years bro since he left.
Big battles would be the Terran Deathball vs the Protoss squish with arbiters ;l
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On July 09 2011 08:38 drryworrx wrote:
I have watched them, and I have played brood war. Never seen one where somebodies going all in with 40+ units though.
1) I have played brood war
2) I have watched a large number of progames
3) I have never seen a brood war game that involves a timing push with 40+ units
One of these statements is fundamentally incompatible with the other two.... can you guess which???
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I lack reading comprehension.
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Back in the days... did you mean 1999?
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"It also seems to me that an army usually doesn't get higher than 20 units in matches with the professionals who have played Brood War professionally back in the day like Idra and Boxer and all of them."
I missed this golden nugget. Hah, now I know this is a troll.
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Lol...it's nice how every word I say is taken as trolling. Sad.
I don't remember talking shit.
I don't remember PURPOSEFULLY saying something wrong.
I just talk based on what I see/have seen.
Sue me if I have better things to do than to watch a 40 minute replay.
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On July 09 2011 09:28 drryworrx wrote:
Lol...it's nice how every word I say is taken as trolling. Sad.
I don't remember talking shit.
I don't remember PURPOSEFULLY saying something wrong.
I just talk based on what I see/have seen.
Sue me if I have better things to do than to watch a 40 minute replay.
You made claims that can only accurately be made with experience in the game. Your statements contradict this so much it is hard to believe you are being serious.
I felt like I was maybe a bit too harsh, until I read:
"Sue me if I have better things to do than to watch a 40 minute replay."
Why do people always fall back on such a childish argument?
You make a blog about wanting to discuss something, and then dismiss anyone wanting to discuss it, and then on TOP OF THAT, you claim to have "better things to do" than look into the very subject YOU MADE THE BLOG TO DISCUSS. Haha, WHAT?!
Also, you're factually wrong here again. Few games last until the 40 minute mark... very, very, very, very, VERY few. And if you're as familiar with the game as anyone making such assessments must be, you'd know this. Oh, and you'd know that you can run replays at a variety of speeds (hint: this means you could watch your elusive "40 minute replay" in a fraction of that time).
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On July 09 2011 09:28 drryworrx wrote:
Lol...it's nice how every word I say is taken as trolling. Sad.
I don't remember talking shit.
I don't remember PURPOSEFULLY saying something wrong.
I just talk based on what I see/have seen.
Sue me if I have better things to do than to watch a 40 minute replay.
1. You say something blatantly wrong
2. You get called out on that
3. You keep on arguing about being right, even though pretty much everyone tells you that you are wrong.
And then you take offense when people think you are trolling? Creationist mentality right there.
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On July 09 2011 08:38 drryworrx wrote:
I have watched them, and I have played brood war. Never seen one where somebodies going all in with 40+ units though.
What are you trying to say here ? Of couse all-in means having a low eco, while having a lot of units means having a strong eco. It's just like saying "oh carrier sucks, they're not viable in 1 base play...
And even if I try to find some sense in your post, you are wrong. For example, Horang2's mass gates style PvZ is an all-in. That guy makes 10 gateways on two bases, keeps applying pressure without taking a third. He's got a shitload of units but if the zerg holds he's just dead.
edit : someone above me also posted the 6-fact push. Just watch some more BW pls.
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EPT
