EPTHow to Keep Koreans Out of Foreign Tournaments - Page 2
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
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bobwhiz
United States725 Posts
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Kezzer
United States1268 Posts
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Mehs
Norway4 Posts
On June 26 2011 10:18 white_horse wrote: You are either trolling or know nothing about the history of BW. Let me tell you: the brood war industry in korea started because of a rise in popularity in internet cafes in korea (late 1990s) at a time when brood war was introduced to the korean market. BW ended up becoming very popular and that is how progaming started there. I don't think any other country at the time had the necessary environment for brood war to grow. Even if there was one, the interest in brood war wasn't as strong or fervent as it was in korea. It is unfair to compare brood war to SC2 the way you are. The idea of progaming in western countries didn't really catch on until later when the skill gap became too high and so they ended up turning their attention to SC2. This OP and whoever supports it are total idiots and need to pull their heads out of their asses. I agree. I'd also like to add that Korea isn't isolated, per se. Foreigners just aren't good enough to compete. It's actually a reversal of the "problem" foreigners have. What some people are saying on TL in relation to the Starcraft 2 scene is excluding Korean players because they're too good, which is laughable. Excluding players because they're not up to par, however, is in line with how all competitive sports work. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
I would even dare to say it is reaching a point where you could consider it racism. | ||
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VGhost
United States3618 Posts
I do think the future popularity of esports lies in team play. I do not think that team play can, practically speaking, happen at a serious league level internationally (I could be wrong). As long as SC2 remains an individual competition, then there is of course no reason to restrict competition by geography (though also no reason not to maintain some local play): compare golf or tennis. But even in golf, tennis, track, etc., at least in the United States, the "industry" is supported by teams at the lower level (through schools and club programs), and that will have to come to Starcraft (or any esport), imo, in order to have sustainable success. Of course the top level of competition will always be global (compare the World Cup), even if some local league (compare the Spanish or English football leagues) have a higher overall standard for the most part. tl;dr: Individual leagues will naturally and should remain international. Team leagues are the sustainable future infrastructure of esports and will/should be/become local. I apologize if I was not clear enough in my original presentation (although I think I was and several people just replied to the title without reading). Koreans should keep coming to MLG, Dreamhack, etc. and I'd love to see more foreign players in the GSL - that's the nature of those competitions. I'm even super excited to see FXO go to the GTSL - but I also think that's an indication that so far the Western esports scene isn't taking the initiative to create a sustainable structure, our own team leagues. | ||
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Sarang
Australia2363 Posts
If a tournament says "We are open to everyone except Koreans", then I will not buy a ticket, nor tune in to the stream at ANY point. The whole foreigner attidude disgusts me. We're not as good as the Koreans are, so instead of working and training to get better, we want to ban them from our events. If that ever happens, I'm going to completely ignore the foreign scene. I have so much respect for players like Jinro, HuK, NaNiwa and ThorZaiN, the FXO guys etc etc, because their reaction to Korean dominance isn't to bitch and moan, it's to fucking GO to korea, practice their asses off and try and compete. And what happens when they do? Jinro reaches two Ro4's in the GSL in a row. HuK wins Dreamhack, beating July and Moon to do so. Hell, ThorZaiN didn't even NEED to go to Korea to beat oGsMC. Foreigners need to stop the whining and start fucking training. Koreans work their fucking asses off to get to the level they're at. They're not "born" with it, they're the best because they work the hardest. Banning them from our events because they've worked so hard to be the best is absolutely ridiculous. | ||
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DisaFear
Australia4074 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
Since you are picking on NASL, you should identify their goal with the league first before criticizing them for inviting koreans. They wanted the best of the best to be in their league, not just limited to North America. Of course, if you have a problem with their name not representing what they try to do, then take it up with the organizers. You say that "local players can play 'safely'" if there were no pro players? From this statement, I can only assume you want the skill level to be pathetically low. Why do Naniwa/Thorzain and so many other foreigners who have not been to Korea want to play there so badly? Clearly it is because they (and most of the foreign community) believe that Korea holds the highest skill level, and practice there will drastically improve their skills. Moving to Korea is not cheap though; it is costly to fly over there, maintaining rent, food, and/or other living costs, not to mention missing out on a lot of tournaments. By allowing Koreans to play in foreign tournaments, we are able to share ideas on how to improve together as a whole. This community is not made up of the groups of players seperated in different regions. This community is made up of all the players around the world. So why would you want to segregate people of this community? | ||
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Yurie
12082 Posts
Is the majority of the players top tier players? No, so there should be more lower tier competitions than higher tier ones. Did I get your point or did I agree with something slightly different? | ||
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VGhost
United States3618 Posts
On June 26 2011 11:42 Sarang wrote: If a tournament says "We are open to everyone except Koreans", then I will not buy a ticket, nor tune in to the stream at ANY point. The whole foreigner attidude disgusts me. We're not as good as the Koreans are, so instead of working and training to get better, we want to ban them from our events. It should be obvious that what you're complaining about is not what I'm advocating. I'm not saying "ban Koreans", I'm saying we (as in other geographic areas) need to focus on creating leagues that recreate what Korea already has. Korea is the pinnacle of achievement because of the team and practice culture and infrastructure that they created for BW and inherited for SC2. If there were, for instance, a "North American Proleague", the same way there is an English Premier League and Serie A and La Liga and, yes, MLS, there might be Korean "mercenary" players on the NA teams participating, and they might even be their teams aces (the same way that MLS imports European players or the Korean baseball league has some American players), but it would be an actual North American league. Korea remains ahead of the world because Korea has Korean leagues: not that foreigners don't play there (they do and have, from Grr.... to idra to Jinro), but the league is geographically located in Korea. Yurie picked up on a lot of what I'm trying to say. I believe any stable future for esports will have to localize. Online leagues are shiny and great, but they simply don't have the staying power - I don't think - of actual local leagues. | ||
white_horse
1019 Posts
Artificially trying to establish a "local" league and then saying that foreigners are not allowed in it is either veiled racism, veiled inferiority complex, or both. What you desire to happen (local leagues springing up in american and european communities) is only going to happen when there is enough support for SC2 and enough infrastructure for it in the west - that is why it is important to advertise and expand the SC2 scene as it is as much as possible so that such growth can occur. That means bringing the current community together, not this cock-a-bullshit segregated crap you are suggesting. On June 26 2011 11:32 VGhost wrote: I apologize if I was not clear enough in my original presentation (although I think I was and several people just replied to the title without reading). The first sentence you wrote says that the title is made to be "intentionally inflammatory". And then your surprised that people are angry about your post? If you are trolling, then you are doing a very good job at it. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
Really, this doesn't warrant all the attention that it's getting, both communities at their highest levels are looking to merge and grow together, not to steal from eachother. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:14 VGhost wrote: It should be obvious that what you're complaining about is not what I'm advocating. I'm not saying "ban Koreans", I'm saying we (as in other geographic areas) need to focus on creating leagues that recreate what Korea already has. Korea is the pinnacle of achievement because of the team and practice culture and infrastructure that they created for BW and inherited for SC2. If there were, for instance, a "North American Proleague", the same way there is an English Premier League and Serie A and La Liga and, yes, MLS, there might be Korean "mercenary" players on the NA teams participating, and they might even be their teams aces (the same way that MLS imports European players or the Korean baseball league has some American players), but it would be an actual North American league. Korea remains ahead of the world because Korea has Korean leagues: not that foreigners don't play there (they do and have, from Grr.... to idra to Jinro), but the league is geographically located in Korea. Yurie picked up on a lot of what I'm trying to say. I believe any stable future for esports will have to localize. Online leagues are shiny and great, but they simply don't have the staying power - I don't think - of actual local leagues. What you are advocating goes against the development of "E-sports" whether you like it or not. Korea is not the pinnacle of achievement because the game has not been figured out yet. It is not like the current Korean metagame is the one and only way to play this game. Having exposure to the community brings about evolution of the game. I can guarantee you that we could have a bronze league tournament that brings 10k viewers simply by having Day[9]/Tastosis casting, but I highly doubt the community would continue to support that league for the next 5-10 years. Who honestly wants to see stale gameplay day after day, month after month, year after year. This is what is going to happen if your suggested segregation is allowed to happen (assuming nothing changes from Blizzard's server segregation). Quoting Bill Maher seems only appropriate here: " 'This is what I believe'. Yeah you believe it, and I'm going to say why it's dumb" | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
The idea there was restrict imports of manufactured goods so local industry could develop without powerful competition. It was for the most part, a failure. StarCraft got its competitive start in Korea. The competitive StarCraft II scene would be nothing like it is without Korea's leadership starting 11 years ago. Yes the rest of the world is worse, but the gap is as small now as it has ever been (even in BroodWar, ElkY and Grrr.... were good but did not stay in the top ranks for long). And non-Koreans are cognizant of the difference and want to overcome it. I wouldn't say there should be no local leagues, but Koreans do not have some mystical genetic superiority over non-Koreans. Should we prevent Kenyans and Ethiopians from entering "local" marathons? Should we prevent African Americans from playing basketball? I'm sure there are people who have held this view, in fact there was an interview on The Colbert Report or The Daily Show a while ago about a man who wanted a white basketball league so white people could "have more fun" or something. Those views should sound alarming to you, and yours is the exact same. Even if something about the genetic lineage of Koreans does make them better, it's impossible to prove right now and absurd to assume. Foreigners can beat Koreans, and a lot of foreigners would and have done fine in GSL. And the skill gap I think is not growing. Edit: Also, the best Koreans always participate in foreign leagues. Because the bad ones have no incentive to go. So the results should be slightly skewed anyway. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On June 26 2011 09:54 white_horse wrote: The hostility against korean players as well as desire from some in the SC2 community to separate leagues specifically between koreans and "foreigners" just makes it look like people here carry an inferiority complex. skill knows no borders and if non-koreans want to create a legitimate atmosphere for progaming in SC2, they just need to work harder because it all comes down to the work ethic and effort, which the koreans seem to have more than the foreigners. Creating an artificial environment so that lower skilled players can win tournaments by babying them is just pathetic. I wish people would stop reading more into something than what is actually said. Like this post. There is a reason why college ball is separated into skill divisions. No, let's not "baby" them. Every amateur or high school baller should all play in the same league. Grrr I'm angry only the best. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
Unlike Broodwar where it was well established that any random B-teamer would be more than a match for foreigners, SC2 hasn't, and hopefully will not, turn out like this. Local competitions are great, but if the tournament is big I feel it's counterproductive for the growth of players to make it region locked. | ||
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white_horse
1019 Posts
On June 26 2011 13:26 Ownos wrote: I wish people would stop reading more into something than what is actually said. Like this post. There is a reason why college ball is separated into skill divisions. so you are suggesting that a westerner-only league should take place because westerners are less skilled than the koreans at SC2 and therefore should play in their own leagues? are you being serious? | ||
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zawk9
United States427 Posts
On June 26 2011 13:26 Ownos wrote: I wish people would stop reading more into something than what is actually said. Like this post. There is a reason why college ball is separated into skill divisions. No, let's not "baby" them. Every amateur or high school baller should all play in the same league. Grrr I'm angry only the best. Seriously? You do know what those same arguments have been used to justify in athletic sports, right? | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
No, let them in, foreingers can catch up and will catch up. I don't think Naniwa or Thorzain can improve as much as they are improving now if it is not for those Koreans. | ||
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