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On June 11 2011 08:55 SoBeDragon wrote:Show nested quote + I would argue that burrowed roaches fill the cloaked unit "role". The dangerous part of a cloaked unit is not when it is attacking. It's that you don't see it coming. I disagree. The dangerous part of a cloaked unit is that you must have detection in order to prevent the damage from being dealt. A cloaked banshee without detection kills everything...same with a cloaked DT. A burrowed roach without detection is worthless, especially since roaches can't go under buildings. Let Blizzard figure out how to do it, but Zerg very much needs the ability to scale cliffs. Considering Zerg has fewer means to constrict space, (can only build on creep) they need a tool to help them scout earlier. Terran has reapers & scan, protoss has hallucinated phoenix and/or obs, but Zerg only has the OL in the early game. The OL can be shut down by 1 marine / 1 stalker, which makes sacrificing it a gamble (either you get lucky and see what u need to, or you dont). There is also no "snap defense" mechanism available to Zerg which is why this scouting is so necessary (Terran can wall off w/bunkers, protoss have force fields. In BW, creep colonies became sunks, so they had a snap defense in the past). I really think if Zerg had a tier 1 cliff walker, this could solve a lot of the issues that Idra mentioned. I hope Sean reads this and provides us with his opinion!
Honestly, how can one, without detection, kill burrowed roaches? You need detection in both situations. Roaches can burrow and heal to full health, then continue their assault. If the Zerg player micro'ed them -- think blink stalker-esque micro -- he could keep every single roach alive by using burrow. To argue you don't need detection vs. burrowed roaches shows a bit of ignorance.
I've heard the IdrA argument before. But it's not as simple as "Zerg can't scout". Have you ever watched IdrA stream? He scouts every game. If a silver league player can't scout, it's not necessarily the availability of scouting methods that prevent him from doing so. Even so, the cure can't be brought down to a single level, or a single ability. Cliff jumpers would not be the ONLY cure for the inability to scout. For example, removing the Overlord speed upgrade, making all Overlords as fast as the previously upgraded Overlords, but increasing the cost/time of Overlord drop tech would be a nice, "balanced" way of accomplishing this same thing. Zerg do not NEED cliff jumpers.
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Day[9] Daily #100 is my favorite! :D
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On June 11 2011 09:20 JuTo wrote:
Day[9] Daily #100 is my favorite! :D
I still have not seen this one. I'm going to go watch it, if it's in any of the archives.
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Honestly, how can one, without detection, kill burrowed roaches? You need detection in both situations. Roaches can burrow and heal to full health, then continue their assault. If the Zerg player micro'ed them -- think blink stalker-esque micro -- he could keep every single roach alive by using burrow. To argue you don't need detection vs. burrowed roaches shows a bit of ignorance.
I apologize sir. It seems you may have mis-read my previous statement. With all do respect, I know how burrow works, and I know how regen works, I use them all the time. I didn't say "you don't need detection vs burrowed roaches" I said "a burrowed roach without detection is worthless" because they don't deal damage when they aren't detected. To put this into a different perspective, is a cloaked banshee without detection worthless? I think that issue is only limited to Zerg, and that was my point.
And to answer your question, yes, I do watch Idra stream, a lot...probably more then I should. He's my favorite Zerg steamer by a long shot, and I have never seen him use blink-esque burrow-micro with roaches to continue a frontal assault on a Protoss base. I wonder why? 
And I know he scouts every single game. I never said he didn't. I am merely agreeing with Greg that Zerg does not have the same tools available to them as the other races when it comes to early game scouting. That's all. The inability to constrict space, the lack of a snap defense and the fact that zerg does not have an all purpose build all play into that as well. If Zerg does not NEED cliff jumpers, as you said, then Terran does not NEED scan, since they have reapers...or vice versa. I also never said "Zerg can't scout" I said they have fewer means to do it. (scan+reaper / hallu phoenix + obs / OL sac)
I'll leave the topic of what is a "balanced" up to Blizzard. I am only looking at the tools each race has available to them, and unless I'm missing something Zerg has fewer in these regards. That's all. Sorry for any confusion.
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On June 11 2011 09:36 SoBeDragon wrote:Show nested quote +Honestly, how can one, without detection, kill burrowed roaches? You need detection in both situations. Roaches can burrow and heal to full health, then continue their assault. If the Zerg player micro'ed them -- think blink stalker-esque micro -- he could keep every single roach alive by using burrow. To argue you don't need detection vs. burrowed roaches shows a bit of ignorance.
I apologize sir. It seems you may have mis-read my previous statement. With all do respect, I know how burrow works, and I know how regen works, I use them all the time. I didn't say "you don't need detection vs burrowed roaches" I said "a burrowed roach without detection is worthless" because they don't deal damage when they aren't detected. To put this into a different perspective, is a cloaked banshee without detection worthless? I think that issue is only limited to Zerg, and that was my point. And to answer your question, yes, I do watch Idra stream, a lot...probably more then I should. He's my favorite Zerg steamer by a long shot, and I have never seen him use blink-esque burrow-micro with roaches to continue a frontal assault on a Protoss base. I wonder why? And I know he scouts every single game. I never said he didn't. I am merely agreeing with Greg that Zerg does not have the same tools available to them as the other races when it comes to early game scouting. That's all. The inability to constrict space, and the lack of a snap defense plays into that as well. If Zerg does not NEED cliff jumpers, as you said, then Terran does not NEED scan, since they have reapers...or vice versa. I also never said "Zerg can't scout" I said they have fewer means to do it. (scan+reaper / hallu phoenix + obs / OL sac) I'll leave the topic of what is a "balanced" up to Blizzard. I am only looking at the tools each race has available to them, and unless I'm missing something Zerg has fewer in these regards. That's all. Sorry for any confusion.
Luckily, Blizzard is looking into this now. They claimed they were monitoring how scouting works for everyone, and if anyone needs a "buff" to their ability to scout, they would be getting it in HoTS. I would definitely love to see more tools for Zerg, I just don't personally think cliff-walking would be a good addition. It will be interesting to see how they plan to adjust all three races, especially Zerg.
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On June 11 2011 09:57 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 09:36 SoBeDragon wrote:Honestly, how can one, without detection, kill burrowed roaches? You need detection in both situations. Roaches can burrow and heal to full health, then continue their assault. If the Zerg player micro'ed them -- think blink stalker-esque micro -- he could keep every single roach alive by using burrow. To argue you don't need detection vs. burrowed roaches shows a bit of ignorance.
I apologize sir. It seems you may have mis-read my previous statement. With all do respect, I know how burrow works, and I know how regen works, I use them all the time. I didn't say "you don't need detection vs burrowed roaches" I said "a burrowed roach without detection is worthless" because they don't deal damage when they aren't detected. To put this into a different perspective, is a cloaked banshee without detection worthless? I think that issue is only limited to Zerg, and that was my point. And to answer your question, yes, I do watch Idra stream, a lot...probably more then I should. He's my favorite Zerg steamer by a long shot, and I have never seen him use blink-esque burrow-micro with roaches to continue a frontal assault on a Protoss base. I wonder why? And I know he scouts every single game. I never said he didn't. I am merely agreeing with Greg that Zerg does not have the same tools available to them as the other races when it comes to early game scouting. That's all. The inability to constrict space, and the lack of a snap defense plays into that as well. If Zerg does not NEED cliff jumpers, as you said, then Terran does not NEED scan, since they have reapers...or vice versa. I also never said "Zerg can't scout" I said they have fewer means to do it. (scan+reaper / hallu phoenix + obs / OL sac) I'll leave the topic of what is a "balanced" up to Blizzard. I am only looking at the tools each race has available to them, and unless I'm missing something Zerg has fewer in these regards. That's all. Sorry for any confusion. Luckily, Blizzard is looking into this now. They claimed they were monitoring how scouting works for everyone, and if anyone needs a "buff" to their ability to scout, they would be getting it in HoTS. I would definitely love to see more tools for Zerg, I just don't personally think cliff-walking would be a good addition. It will be interesting to see how they plan to adjust all three races, especially Zerg.
Good to hear that Blizzard still has ears for the community. Yeah - cliff walking may not be the tool needed, but I hope it's something on the table. It will certainly be interesting to see what they come up with ! =DDD
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I see some really exciting things coming from Sean. He is what makes Starcraft2 work.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina114 Posts
Very informative interview (Day9 always has interesting things to say), but drop the red/black thing. Here's my suggestion:
Q: Good answer.
A: Yeeeaaah!
Q: Alright, you have time for some extra questions?
A: Yeah, totally!
Use some simple formatting instead; don't worry, people will figure it :-)
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On June 11 2011 11:30 greendestiny wrote:Very informative interview (Day9 always has interesting things to say), but drop the red/black thing. Here's my suggestion: Show nested quote +
Q: Good answer.
A: Yeeeaaah!
Q: Alright, you have time for some extra questions?
A: Yeah, totally!
Use some simple formatting instead; don't worry, people will figure it :-)
I was going to, but when I realized how immense his answers were, I figured it could become kinda easy to get lost.
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Just want to thank the OP for the interview. It is always really cool getting insight into major players in the starcraft community, and this was one excellent interview.
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Such a great interview. Needs to be spotlight asap. some really great insights here that we don't always get to hear from Mr. Plott.
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Read this whole thread loved it! he is true about the 1 zerg supply :S its really annoying
i enjoyed his stand up comedy it was awesome, never knew Day9 was such an awesome math guy and i lold so hard at the it costs me 200/200 tottaly worth it xD
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The mathematician is strong in this one.
Really for some parts of the answers about balance it was like sitting a math lecture explaining why perfect balance can never be reached and why imballance is impossible to prove 
Great stuff!
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Dang, that's a lot of stuff, and bold hurts my eyes even more, but it looks freaking amazing! Thanks for this :> I'll get back to it later because this will be a crazy-good read...!
Was sean not a national merit finalist, though? I'm pretty sure that almost all semifinalists become finalists :O
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On June 11 2011 14:01 Z3kk wrote:
Dang, that's a lot of stuff, and bold hurts my eyes even more, but it looks freaking amazing! Thanks for this :> I'll get back to it later because this will be a crazy-good read...!
Was sean not a national merit finalist, though? I'm pretty sure that almost all semifinalists become finalists :O
I was only able to find the school papers regarding semifinalists from the school.
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interesting read, thanks! =)
aren't lings 1 supply though? :>
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On June 11 2011 17:49 stoque wrote:
interesting read, thanks! =)
aren't lings 1 supply though? :>
I'm not sure they count for much. I mean, 1 upgraded ultra kills something like 396 lings.
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I rather agree with his philosophy on trying to mold an mmo thought process to an RTS. I've kinda thought since SC2 released why we were using terms like that (tank,dps) in the first place, it really doesn't belong here. But oh well, i knew what they meant, and it sometimes made communicating what you were saying a bit easier.
I too miss zergy zergness. But who honestly doesn't?
I disagree that his brother is an asshole ^.^
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EPT
