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On May 07 2011 04:03 zeru wrote:
I don't care about starcraft going mainstream, i have no illusions, it's a video game and it's format would never fit on TV, but that doesn't mean it can't be like korea where huge coorporations own teams, where ALL the players do it for a job and have really good salary. No, I'm not saying people need to be boring robots like in korea for it to become like that here.
You still are talking about something completely different, you're looking at the surface of things while I'm looking deeper down. That's the problem with your arguments, you are too simplistic sadly. I don't care that idra shows personality, it's not at all what I'm talking about. Immaturity and ignorance is the problem in my eyes with idra, and the impact those have on the community as his voice gets heard and people think it's an awesome idea to agree with him. Those are different from personality.
It's not that I'm not understanding your argument; It's that I just disagree with you and you don't like my answer.
As I said in my first posts: SC is a game. Greg is a player. You are a fan complaining about his attitude because you think it poisons his fans who will adopt his "bm" attitude and "immaturity" as you describe it, thereby ruining, in your opinion, the community.
Your pedantic tone really shows how snide and selfish your argument is.
SC2 is not Brood War. It is not a tightknit circle of players/fans/TL neckbeard admins focused solely on their interest and way of interaction.
It's a dynamic atmosphere with a new fanbase that wants to see emotion and the occasional bm.
As I've said a million times, stop clinging to what you want or think the community should be and how the players should act, and go with it.
If you don't like it, go back to ICCUP and rage when koreans bm you.
User was banned for this post.
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Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it.
Lately I have been reading so much stupid shit about sc2 on these forums. Slowly over time it's gotten worse and worse. It's getting to where there is so much of it I just can't handle it. Idra definitely doesn't help things in that department.
The absolute worst is how many posts there now are saying how "idra made day9 look bad" or something to that extent. How? How did he make him look bad? Day9 avoided the argument entirely, how does that make him look bad? Jesus, they're the same type of people who vote for the politician with the most attack ads.
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On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it.
Lately I have been reading so much stupid shit about sc2 on these forums. Slowly over time it's gotten worse and worse. It's getting to where there is so much of it I just can't handle it. Idra definitely doesn't help things in that department.
The absolute worst is how many posts there now are saying how "idra made day9 look bad" or something to that extent. How? How did he make him look bad? Day9 avoided the argument entirely, how does that make him look bad? Jesus, they're the same type of people who vote for the politician with the most attack ads.
I don't want to put words in Idra's mouth but I assume his complaint about early game scouting is tied to the argument that zerg doesn't have a solid general defensive build. The idea being that an investment into too many lings and spine crawlers will put you at a loss if your opponent isn't aggressive since these units cannot cost efficiently attack a defensive protoss/terran (walloffs/sentries etc...) and of course you're missing out on drones. Hallucination is also a pretty good solution to scouting it would seem.
Of course, I play terran so take that for what it's worth.
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On May 07 2011 04:26 Glaven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it.
Lately I have been reading so much stupid shit about sc2 on these forums. Slowly over time it's gotten worse and worse. It's getting to where there is so much of it I just can't handle it. Idra definitely doesn't help things in that department.
The absolute worst is how many posts there now are saying how "idra made day9 look bad" or something to that extent. How? How did he make him look bad? Day9 avoided the argument entirely, how does that make him look bad? Jesus, they're the same type of people who vote for the politician with the most attack ads. I don't want to put words in Idra's mouth but I assume his complaint about early game scouting is tied to the argument that zerg doesn't have a solid general defensive build. The idea being that an investment into too many lings and spine crawlers will put you at a loss if your opponent isn't aggressive since these units cannot cost efficiently attack a defensive protoss/terran (walloffs/sentries etc...) and of course you're missing out on drones. Hallucination is also a pretty good solution to scouting it would seem. Of course, I play terran so take that for what it's worth.
You're right, but his argument is horribly flawed. He insists that this massive luck-factor put zergs at a huge disadvantage when it comes to consistent winning. But this massive luck-factor exists just as much for protoss.
protoss doesn't have a solid general defensive build that puts them in decent shape on most maps either. you cannot both be totally safe defensively AND keep up with a zerg in economy, which is actually the EXACT SAME THING that idra complains about from a zerg perspective. and it's actually even harder for protoss to detect when zerg is going all-in or putting on heavy pressure than it is for zerg to detect when protoss is doing it.
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Before I say anything, let this be known this is all in my opinion.
Gracken, you are my favorite zerg, probably the best zerg in the world. My heart goes out to you in every match you play. <3
Now in reference to the new SOTG ep. 37. I think the problem w/ zerg is that the zerg community is in this weird ass limbo where Zergs are having a tough trying to deal w/ early scouting, and odd meta game choices.(protoss was in the same spot before the 2 patches that nerfed um) Now, for Idra to call it "imba" or "underpowered" is pretty a ignorant comment, that's assuming that Idra some how has this innate knowledge of all possible gameplay choices for zerg, protoss, and terran, and knows that zerg is in the short end of the stick. I think what day9 was trying to say was that, we don't know, and that idra doesn't know as well, and that until this game has been played out in all possible directions, and all possible way, that there's no way of actually knowing if zerg is "underpowered". What we can deduce from current play is that "zergs' are having a tough time dealing w/ discovering opponent tech. Now Idra was asking the wrong question "how do i scout him with my overlord?" Maybe its not about scouting the building tech, maybe its about scouting unit build, for example in PvT, If you see a stalker built before a sentry there's a good chance that theres some form of tech behind it (early robo, or dt tech rush). You already get a lot of information off of that w/o even seeing the buildings. And tyler made a great point to idra about "maybe you don't need an all around defense build, maybe you only need a build that can defend 4 out of the possible 5 builds they're going, and you've got a good chance of winning".
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On May 07 2011 04:31 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:26 Glaven wrote:On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it.
Lately I have been reading so much stupid shit about sc2 on these forums. Slowly over time it's gotten worse and worse. It's getting to where there is so much of it I just can't handle it. Idra definitely doesn't help things in that department.
The absolute worst is how many posts there now are saying how "idra made day9 look bad" or something to that extent. How? How did he make him look bad? Day9 avoided the argument entirely, how does that make him look bad? Jesus, they're the same type of people who vote for the politician with the most attack ads. I don't want to put words in Idra's mouth but I assume his complaint about early game scouting is tied to the argument that zerg doesn't have a solid general defensive build. The idea being that an investment into too many lings and spine crawlers will put you at a loss if your opponent isn't aggressive since these units cannot cost efficiently attack a defensive protoss/terran (walloffs/sentries etc...) and of course you're missing out on drones. Hallucination is also a pretty good solution to scouting it would seem. Of course, I play terran so take that for what it's worth. You're right, but his argument is horribly flawed. He insists that this massive luck-factor put zergs at a huge disadvantage when it comes to consistent winning. But this massive luck-factor exists just as much for protoss. protoss doesn't have a solid general defensive build that puts them in decent shape on most maps either. you cannot both be totally safe defensively AND keep up with a zerg in economy, which is actually the EXACT SAME THING that idra complains about from a zerg perspective. and it's actually even harder for protoss to detect when zerg is going all-in or putting on heavy pressure than it is for zerg to detect when protoss is doing it.
The Forge FE is relativly safe versus anything the Zerg can do, whereas the Zerg will always have to take risks when a 4gate might emerge or not.
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On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it.
Regardless of my opinions of Idra, you're not being fair to his statements. His argument is that it's impossible to scout early for zerg, AND because Zerg doesn't have a good defensive build that doesn't put them signifigantly behind economically and offensively, it's more of a coin flip for them than the other two races.
Protoss (I won't speak for terran as I don't play the race) does have "safe" builds that are relatively okay vs a wide variety of builds, that can be easily transitioned out of once you arrive at your scouting options (aka: once you've gotten an observer, hallucination, etc). When I 3 gate expand or 2 gate/robo expand, i'm safe vs most anything you can throw at me.
His issue was that zerg does not have a safe catch all build that can be used up until the point where viable scouting becomes available. As a result a zerg has to essentially guess in the early game about his opponent. Sometimes they guess right and can stomp their opponent, and other times they guess incorrectly and die, or get unreasonable behind economically.
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On May 07 2011 04:35 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:31 travis wrote:On May 07 2011 04:26 Glaven wrote:On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it.
Lately I have been reading so much stupid shit about sc2 on these forums. Slowly over time it's gotten worse and worse. It's getting to where there is so much of it I just can't handle it. Idra definitely doesn't help things in that department.
The absolute worst is how many posts there now are saying how "idra made day9 look bad" or something to that extent. How? How did he make him look bad? Day9 avoided the argument entirely, how does that make him look bad? Jesus, they're the same type of people who vote for the politician with the most attack ads. I don't want to put words in Idra's mouth but I assume his complaint about early game scouting is tied to the argument that zerg doesn't have a solid general defensive build. The idea being that an investment into too many lings and spine crawlers will put you at a loss if your opponent isn't aggressive since these units cannot cost efficiently attack a defensive protoss/terran (walloffs/sentries etc...) and of course you're missing out on drones. Hallucination is also a pretty good solution to scouting it would seem. Of course, I play terran so take that for what it's worth. You're right, but his argument is horribly flawed. He insists that this massive luck-factor put zergs at a huge disadvantage when it comes to consistent winning. But this massive luck-factor exists just as much for protoss. protoss doesn't have a solid general defensive build that puts them in decent shape on most maps either. you cannot both be totally safe defensively AND keep up with a zerg in economy, which is actually the EXACT SAME THING that idra complains about from a zerg perspective. and it's actually even harder for protoss to detect when zerg is going all-in or putting on heavy pressure than it is for zerg to detect when protoss is doing it. The Forge FE is relativly safe versus anything the Zerg can do, whereas the Zerg will always have to take risks when a 4gate might emerge or not.
Forge FE is safe if u are very defensive... how defensive you need to be is a guessing game. And if you are too defensive and the zerg makes 4 lings into 3 bases only drones you are now behind. It's largely a guessing game on both sides. That's his complaint and it's correct but the problem is he is so goddamn biased he makes it out to only be a zerg thing.
Idra acts like a player can play a certain way and if he plays well he will win vs anything that zerg does, and it just isn't true at all.
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On May 06 2011 21:25 rkffhk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:
Disagree.... Sorry but saying GG is not something about the goodness or badness of your soul...
Its a starcraft culture thing. Something which Greg should understand being the E-sport senior he is.
I dont think he shud GG evry game on ladder. Like with the jazz musicians: you have to know the rules in order to break them properly --- About the idea with reading your opponent by way of the timings... that's not really something that is exclusive to Zerg. All of the other races have ways of getting into the opposition's base (Observers, Comsats, for example). If Zerg only has something that all of the other races have... do you see where I'm going with this? PS: Idra is from fucking Jersey. Have you ever met a person from New Jersey? You'd understand his behavior if you did.
Idra is from michigan btw
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On May 07 2011 04:40 Oceaniax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it. Regardless of my opinions of Idra, you're not being fair to his statements. His argument is that it's impossible to scout early for zerg, AND because Zerg doesn't have a good defensive build that doesn't put them signifigantly behind economically and offensively, it's more of a coin flip for them than the other two races. Protoss (I won't speak for terran as I don't play the race) does have "safe" builds that are relatively okay vs a wide variety of builds, that can be easily transitioned out of once you arrive at your scouting options (aka: once you've gotten an observer, hallucination, etc). When I 3 gate expand or 2 gate/robo expand, i'm safe vs most anything you can throw at me.
3gate expand can hold off most everything, 2gate robo can't at all. ling/roach allin will get u easily.
3gate expand is fine defensively but what if the zerg only droned? what kind of position does that leave you in? is that not a luck factor right there that can go either for or against you?
His issue was that zerg does not have a safe catch all build that can be used up until the point where viable scouting becomes available. As a result a zerg has to essentially guess in the early game about his opponent. Sometimes they guess right and can stomp their opponent, and other times they guess incorrectly and die, or get unreasonable behind economically.
zerg absolutely does, they just have to sacrifice economy, and idra doesn't want to do that. I have seen countless games of huk (who plays well regardless of what anyone says), where the zerg applies quick pressure with lings or even/ling roach, kills lots of protoss units or forces cancel on expansion, and then the zerg is still ahead in economy in mid game! this happens a lot. it's also happened in gsl games from julyzerg and nestea plenty of times.
I've also seen games of huk where he didn't apply enough pressure, because he used a protoss "safe defensively" build, and the zerg had droned extremely hard, and in the mid game huk was devastatingly overwhelmed.
idra just doesn't want to have risk involved and he doesn't want to play mindgames but sadly what he wants doesn't matter there is luck involved in this game and mindgames is a big part of it.
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"3gate expand can hold off most everything, 2gate robo can't at all."
I didn't think I needed to go into such minutia with my response, but when I said 2g 1r, I was referring to PvT.
"3gate expand is fine defensively but what if the zerg only droned?"
Which is why protoss traditionally do some light pressure at the front to assure that a greedy zerg is punished. There are definetely some maps where it's harder to pressure with 3g expand, but on most maps currently played, with good forcefield control, You can be safe pressuring with sentry/zealot as long as you don't overcommit or get too greedy yourself.
"zerg absolutely does, they just have to sacrifice economy, and idra doesn't want to do that. I have seen countless games of huk (who plays well regardless of what anyone says), where the zerg applies quick pressure with lings or even/ling roach, kills lots of protoss units or forces cancel on expansion, and then the zerg is still ahead in economy in mid game! this happens a lot. it's also happened in gsl games from julyzerg and nestea plenty of times. "
It's true. the problem in this is if a zerg commits to units early game and the pressure DOESN'T work, they're behind economically by a signifigant margin. When I pressure with 3 gate robo, I am not taking that risk if the zerg commited to units or defenses and i'm not able to get in and do damage.
"idra just doesn't want to have risk involved and he doesn't want to play mindgames but sadly what he wants doesn't matter there is luck involved in this game and mindgames is a big part of it."
Good players want to mitigate risk. I've played table top games at a very high competitive level for years, and the most important aspect of my strategies always involves mitigating risk. Why? Because I believe i'm better than my opponent, and I feel like in alot of circumstances their only way to beat me is to use risky strategies that (in reference to table top games, quite literally) are just rolling the dice.
Unless "safe" builds develop for all the races where a good player can sacrifice an advantage for safety and not be grossly behind his opponent, high level competitors will always have a valid right to complain (no one wants to devote tons of time and effort to practicing a game when too much luck is involved, where you feel that your effort is being outshadowed by the luck of the draw).
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Some pretty good discussion thus-far. It got a little heated and someone got banned -- from TL.net, not from my blog. Again, that's not the kind of thing I want to happen. Lets just keep it cool, respect each other, and discuss this in a nice, level tone.
I definitely like to see the people who disagree with me voicing their opinions, so keep it coming.
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I wrote earlier about Idra's issue w/ "balance", now about his "attitude". Personally I think its fine, his lack of "gg" is something I actually like. "gg" means "good game", if the game wasn't good, don't fucking "gg". Derp. "gg" is something that needs to be earned, not something handed out like participation certificate for elementary school competition. The current use of gg has been so fucking diluted its almost a pointless sentiment to say.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 04:51 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:40 Oceaniax wrote:On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it. Regardless of my opinions of Idra, you're not being fair to his statements. His argument is that it's impossible to scout early for zerg, AND because Zerg doesn't have a good defensive build that doesn't put them signifigantly behind economically and offensively, it's more of a coin flip for them than the other two races. Protoss (I won't speak for terran as I don't play the race) does have "safe" builds that are relatively okay vs a wide variety of builds, that can be easily transitioned out of once you arrive at your scouting options (aka: once you've gotten an observer, hallucination, etc). When I 3 gate expand or 2 gate/robo expand, i'm safe vs most anything you can throw at me. 3gate expand can hold off most everything, 2gate robo can't at all. ling/roach allin will get u easily. 3gate expand is fine defensively but what if the zerg only droned? what kind of position does that leave you in? is that not a luck factor right there that can go either for or against you? Show nested quote +
His issue was that zerg does not have a safe catch all build that can be used up until the point where viable scouting becomes available. As a result a zerg has to essentially guess in the early game about his opponent. Sometimes they guess right and can stomp their opponent, and other times they guess incorrectly and die, or get unreasonable behind economically.
zerg absolutely does, they just have to sacrifice economy, and idra doesn't want to do that. I have seen countless games of huk (who plays well regardless of what anyone says), where the zerg applies quick pressure with lings or even/ling roach, kills lots of protoss units or forces cancel on expansion, and then the zerg is still ahead in economy in mid game! this happens a lot. it's also happened in gsl games from julyzerg and nestea plenty of times. I've also seen games of huk where he didn't apply enough pressure, because he used a protoss "safe defensively" build, and the zerg had droned extremely hard, and in the mid game huk was devastatingly overwhelmed. idra just doesn't want to have risk involved and he doesn't want to play mindgames but sadly what he wants doesn't matter there is luck involved in this game and mindgames is a big part of it.
If you 3 gate FE'd and he only drones, wouldn't you have the option of putting on a lot of pressure which would presumably equalize the situation because you have the option to fall back on an expo?
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On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it.
Lately I have been reading so much stupid shit about sc2 on these forums. Slowly over time it's gotten worse and worse. It's getting to where there is so much of it I just can't handle it. Idra definitely doesn't help things in that department.
The absolute worst is how many posts there now are saying how "idra made day9 look bad" or something to that extent. How? How did he make him look bad? Day9 avoided the argument entirely, how does that make him look bad? Jesus, they're the same type of people who vote for the politician with the most attack ads.
Truer words have never been spoken. Not only are there flaws in IdrA's argument, he can't even present it without coming off in a negative way, despite accepting that zergs are actually adapting quite well.
From everything he said, it feels like he just wants a game that's balanced in such a way that "he shouldn't be losing to these people", because he thinks 3 years of korean bw practice entitle him to win everything in the western hemisphere, ever.
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On May 07 2011 08:51 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:15 travis wrote:
Idra isn't right, and his argument is absolutely ridiculous. So zerg can't easily scout the tech choice of the opponent early in the game. Well guess what, it's even harder for protoss!
The shit that idra is complaining about, well protoss has the exact same issues! Like, literally the exact same issues. He is so biased and is so dumb about it.
Lately I have been reading so much stupid shit about sc2 on these forums. Slowly over time it's gotten worse and worse. It's getting to where there is so much of it I just can't handle it. Idra definitely doesn't help things in that department.
The absolute worst is how many posts there now are saying how "idra made day9 look bad" or something to that extent. How? How did he make him look bad? Day9 avoided the argument entirely, how does that make him look bad? Jesus, they're the same type of people who vote for the politician with the most attack ads. Truer words have never been spoken. Not only are there flaws in IdrA's argument, he can't even present it without coming off in a negative way, despite accepting that zergs are actually adapting quite well. From everything he said, it feels like he just wants a game that's balanced in such a way that "he shouldn't be losing to these people", because he thinks 3 years of korean bw practice entitle him to win everything in the western hemisphere, ever.
To be fair, we Protoss players can get observers, which are insanely cheap nowadays. If the Zerg want to scout, they will have to upgrade Overlord speed and suicide the Overlord. So, at least that portion of the argument, is still in favor of the Protoss.
Again, this is about tip-top leagues and professional play, where slow Overlords will be killed before they can see anything.
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On May 07 2011 01:14 natelikewhoa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 01:03 zeru wrote:
I'm talking about his negative impact on the community in general and how the attitude he has creates negativity, irrationality and ignorance among his fans, those won't disappear by not watching him. I completely disagree and believe that saying that greg's attitude causes negativity, irrationality, and ignorance among fans is foolish at best.
Sorry but you can see the influence of it all over this site. People cite IdrA and use him as an example all the time.
People seem to get the impression that he's doing it to be a character or something, yet he bm's even in private games with no one watching. Before SC2 release most people had a negative perception of him cause he said some foolish stuff when he lost and was pointlessly bm to amateur opponents when he was a pro playing 12 hours a day. Now he's somehow looked up as a hero to some people, for basically being a dick. Talking about perceived imbalance is one thing. Disrespecting opponents is another, and it's unnecessary.
You can speak your mind without resorting to being an asshole.
And about the imbalance IdrA seems to want to just play Terran in BW. Yet he complained about that too. Even with perfectly fine scouting i remember the ridiculous posts he made complaining that F91 was tricking him with 'bad' strategies that shouldn't be done and that's why he lost.
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