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On May 06 2011 21:25 rkffhk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:
Disagree.... Sorry but saying GG is not something about the goodness or badness of your soul...
Its a starcraft culture thing. Something which Greg should understand being the E-sport senior he is.
I dont think he shud GG evry game on ladder. Like with the jazz musicians: you have to know the rules in order to break them properly --- About the idea with reading your opponent by way of the timings... that's not really something that is exclusive to Zerg. All of the other races have ways of getting into the opposition's base (Observers, Comsats, for example). If Zerg only has something that all of the other races have... do you see where I'm going with this? PS: Idra is from fucking Jersey. Have you ever met a person from New Jersey? You'd understand his behavior if you did.
What is that supposed to mean, exactly? I'm from New Jersey. Do elaborate. Please.
Anyways, on topic: I think IdrA's a great player, and that's what I value most when it comes to wanting to see a great game. His personality makes me find him interesting, and as long as he abides by any tournament rules, then I see no reason why he should or shouldn't have to say gg or anything like that. I say gg out of personal preference and respect, but you don't automatically owe anyone respect just because you played against them in a computer game. It's not like companies won't sponsor him unless he becomes super good-mannered; they know his motif.
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On May 06 2011 22:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 21:25 rkffhk wrote:On May 06 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:
Disagree.... Sorry but saying GG is not something about the goodness or badness of your soul...
Its a starcraft culture thing. Something which Greg should understand being the E-sport senior he is.
I dont think he shud GG evry game on ladder. Like with the jazz musicians: you have to know the rules in order to break them properly --- About the idea with reading your opponent by way of the timings... that's not really something that is exclusive to Zerg. All of the other races have ways of getting into the opposition's base (Observers, Comsats, for example). If Zerg only has something that all of the other races have... do you see where I'm going with this? PS: Idra is from fucking Jersey. Have you ever met a person from New Jersey? You'd understand his behavior if you did. What is that supposed to mean, exactly? I'm from New Jersey. Do elaborate. Please. Anyways, on topic: I think IdrA's a great player, and that's what I value most when it comes to wanting to see a great game. His personality makes me find him interesting, and as long as he abides by any tournament rules, then I see no reason why he should or shouldn't have to say gg or anything like that. I say gg out of personal preference and respect, but you don't automatically owe anyone respect just because you played against them in a computer game. It's not like companies won't sponsor him unless he becomes super good-mannered; they know his motif.
I wish this was Facebook, cause I'd like this post.
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On May 06 2011 21:38 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 21:35 Hikko wrote:On May 06 2011 21:18 loveeholicce wrote:On May 06 2011 20:58 Tschis wrote:On May 06 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:
Disagree.... Sorry but saying GG is not something about the goodness or badness of your soul...
Its a starcraft culture thing. Something which Greg should understand being the E-sport senior he is.
I dont think he shud GG evry game on ladder. Just when he plays against people he knows and also on televised and torney games.
I think thats Tylers policy atleast and I like it. BW Professionals in Korea were forced to type GG before leaving, that's not "culture" to me, it's rules you have to follow. There was no rule saying you had to type GG in BW. ◆ After change
Section 13, Declaration of acceptance of loss
Only 'gg (lower casing in English), GG (caps in English)' will be accepted as declarations of acceptance of loss. Typing anything else to declare acceptance of loss will result in a disqualification and a warning. (With effect from 11th April 2009) SourceNOTE: this is for KeSPA sanctioned Brood War matches. Hm, that rule just prevented ww, zizi yo, gg yo etc etc. It doesn't say typing gg is actually required, but typing anything other than gg/GG/ppp would get you disqualified.
Yea, that wat I was thinking. I remember Zero vs Really on Eye of the Storm last year Really left without typing anything and was never penalized for it. In the interview he just said he was mad and completely forgot lol
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On May 06 2011 21:31 Kipsate wrote:
In before someone makes a Jersey Shore photoshop with Idra in it.
Ow yeah, what I hate the most is that people find his atittude acceptable(Especially his fans, evident by the amount of whine, pages of bans etc). It is disgusting that such an atittude should be acceptable in the current era, but that might just be my opinion.
This. A thousand times this.
I really have a lot less issues with Idra himself than I have with the worrying community trend of accepting and even encouraging that behaviour.
What the OP calls caring about one's public image and even "vanity" is what is generally known as sportsmanship and respect. Trying to interpret these values as something negative while at the same time promoting the cheap "dramatainment" trends is doing a disservice to this community.
Whether you like it or not, TL existed for a long time and Starcraft community as a whole had somewhat higher standards than that. So why come here and promote something that's pretty much the exact opposite of those standards?
Do you go around chess communities and promote rivalries, passion for the game and "personality" in the sense of trash talking before and after games too? Of course not.
So don't do it here either.
There will always be players who aren't the nicest guys around, there were many in Brood War as well (Idra was there too and with an even worse attitude). But the community as a whole decies whether those players will be treated as black sheep (for all their mastery of the game) or as modern day rockstars. Unfortunately, the latter is an overwhelming trend recently.
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Hyrule19259 Posts
On May 06 2011 21:25 rkffhk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:
Disagree.... Sorry but saying GG is not something about the goodness or badness of your soul...
Its a starcraft culture thing. Something which Greg should understand being the E-sport senior he is.
I dont think he shud GG evry game on ladder. Like with the jazz musicians: you have to know the rules in order to break them properly --- About the idea with reading your opponent by way of the timings... that's not really something that is exclusive to Zerg. All of the other races have ways of getting into the opposition's base (Observers, Comsats, for example). If Zerg only has something that all of the other races have... do you see where I'm going with this? PS: Idra is from fucking Jersey. Have you ever met a person from New Jersey? You'd understand his behavior if you did.
What the fuck is wrong with Jersey?
I agree with Idra's point of view about Zerg having shit for scouting, but I'm not going to get into that because I have no damn clue how to fix it.
That having been said, I'm fine with most of his remarks. He gets emotional and says what he thinks. Sometimes he goes too far, but so does everyone. Putting him up on a pedestal and demanding he be courteous at all times is entirely unreasonable.
As for people encouraging him, you should diversify. Due to Korea's influence on the StarCraft scene, we have a more strict etiquette regarding behavior. In just about every other gaming community, Idra would be considered extremely softcore and actually quite polite.
And finally, back to the scouting thing. Zerg doesn't have something the other races have because Zerg ISN'T those other races. That's the driving principal behind the game, and why it's so good. If you want homogenization, go play C&C.
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From where he stands at the top of a steep mountain, even if you are a fraction below him in skill it would appear to idra like you are a mile below him.
That's his point of view. He won't give you respect until you earn it, and earning it would be tough.
He simply calls things as he sees them with brutal honesty. Lesser pros' like cruncher, certainly not a terrible player, of course appears terrible to Idra. Mountain analogy. If idra had to go on record, he'd imply it's not a terrible difference, but relative to where he is, you could understand the word "terrible".
So; when he spends most of his time on his stream citing every player doing continually stupid moves or playing in a terrible fashion, you have to understand he means it not to be derogatory, but that's literally his vision.
Now the part that gets way out of hand is the TL element. He generates 15-20k viewers on his streams, by far the most people following him out of every professional. You have people now who take what he thinks and twists it; to cite that he is actually venomous towards people with intent to be malice. Sure, on the occasion he will insult someone through venting his frustration, but in general he still keeps it relative to the truth he sees.
So recently he is banned through one of his vented insults; fair enough. I expect most people would be banned in similar fashion (although his reputation & popularity cause special attention from moderators, as there are other regular posts in similar style which sometimes go without punishment).
Saying that, he has been repeatedly moderated and given incredible leeway because any "average" user would have had a life time ban much sooner. So it swings both ways which you could call "fair" in a loose sense.
Now I address your problem: you believe that the behaviour is unacceptable to a high degree.
I can only suggest you reexamine your analysis on his behaviour. If you truly believes that he is a unsporting individual who's nature is to hurt and cause malice on the part of people below him, I don't think you gave him the benefit of the doubt to begin with.
Put simply: it's not a big deal so don't make it out to be one. He can choose who he respects and who he doesn't, that is his right. Not many people can say they are in the same calibre of his skill level, but I'm certain if they are Idra would respect them as his peer.
While entertaining for alot of people, when he openly disrespects someone he ties it in with brutal honesty ( most of the time; I'm should hope he means nothing with "waste of life". )
If it's something that bothers you, don't follow his streams. Don't follow his fan club, don't keep up with his twitter. The moderators will moderate if he steps out of line on TL forums, if he says something untoward in a live platform like on SOTG you bet that his colleagues there would step in; especially his teammates who openly know his character 100x better an any of us.
Finally; as for Black sheep or Rockstar ?
He's Idra, he gets treated as Idra. Its up to you to find it entertaining, or be upset with it, but by all means don't be upset if people don't agree with you on either. As I said before, it's not a big deal so don't make an issue out of it.
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On May 06 2011 21:31 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 21:25 rkffhk wrote:On May 06 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:
Disagree.... Sorry but saying GG is not something about the goodness or badness of your soul...
Its a starcraft culture thing. Something which Greg should understand being the E-sport senior he is.
I dont think he shud GG evry game on ladder. Like with the jazz musicians: you have to know the rules in order to break them properly --- About the idea with reading your opponent by way of the timings... that's not really something that is exclusive to Zerg. All of the other races have ways of getting into the opposition's base (Observers, Comsats, for example). If Zerg only has something that all of the other races have... do you see where I'm going with this? PS: Idra is from fucking Jersey. Have you ever met a person from New Jersey? You'd understand his behavior if you did. In before someone makes a Jersey Shore photoshop with Idra in it.
As requested
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/s5Npn.jpg)
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Hyrule19259 Posts
On May 06 2011 23:48 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 21:31 Kipsate wrote:On May 06 2011 21:25 rkffhk wrote:On May 06 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:
Disagree.... Sorry but saying GG is not something about the goodness or badness of your soul...
Its a starcraft culture thing. Something which Greg should understand being the E-sport senior he is.
I dont think he shud GG evry game on ladder. Like with the jazz musicians: you have to know the rules in order to break them properly --- About the idea with reading your opponent by way of the timings... that's not really something that is exclusive to Zerg. All of the other races have ways of getting into the opposition's base (Observers, Comsats, for example). If Zerg only has something that all of the other races have... do you see where I'm going with this? PS: Idra is from fucking Jersey. Have you ever met a person from New Jersey? You'd understand his behavior if you did. In before someone makes a Jersey Shore photoshop with Idra in it. As requested + Show Spoiler +
What's most annoying about Jersey Shore is that all of those fools (except 2) were brought in from New York -.- One is from Jersey and another from Rhode Island.
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This is like all the parents complaining about Tiger Woods "betraying his position as a role model."
Greg is a professional gamer.
His job is to beat other people at Starcraft II.
If you want to make him anything else in your eyes, that's your own decision and any issues that may arise from that decision are your own, not his.
Just like Tiger's job is to hit the ball in the hole, and his personal life is his own business, so is Greg's attitude.
It's amazing that everyone feels so entitled to judge people over the internet, especially as fans of someone. His rage and "bm" have been popularized ad infinitum by people like Husky and countless others looking to increase their stock by singling him out.
Greg is a great guy that I've had the pleasure to hang out with on multiple occasions. All of this conjecture and spirited debate about his "character" is sickening.
Judge his play, judge his attitude ingame, whatever you want, but you're kidding yourself if you believe that it's appropriate to open up a debate about him as a person.
I'm amazed this wasn't locked immediately.
It really shows the hypocrisy of TL that personal attacks aren't tolerated, but a thread opened to discuss a professional player as a human being is A-OK.
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On May 07 2011 00:13 zeru wrote:
It's not personally attacking him. It's discussing him.
I have a question for you though, would you like it if every single pro had the same attitude towards the game and acted the same way as idra? Do you think it would be good for the community or do you think the community would turn into shit?
His character isn't up for discussion any more than your or mine is. His job is to play the game, not be the person you want him to be. Past that it's your choice to be a fan of his or not.
As far as your question, I don't really care.
I played competitive counter-strike 1.6 for a long time, and one of the stunning differences between CS and SC is that SC generally skews towards a nerdier population from the asian roots, hence the prevalence of "manner."
CS is much like any other competitive event. There is shit talking. People get emotional.
Most sports/competitions/events are this way.
SC is an anamoly in that sense.
I don't think it would do any damage to the popularity or skill of the game. Might it shatter this glass castle that has been built around the oh-so-famous TL "I'm not touching you" routine?
Probably.
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9071 Posts
On May 07 2011 00:08 natelikewhoa wrote:
This is like all the parents complaining about Tiger Woods "betraying his position as a role model."
Greg is a professional gamer.
His job is to beat other people at Starcraft II.
If you want to make him anything else in your eyes, that's your own decision and any issues that may arise from that decision are your own, not his.
Just like Tiger's job is to hit the ball in the hole, and his personal life is his own business, so is Greg's attitude.
It's amazing that everyone feels so entitled to judge people over the internet, especially as fans of someone. His rage and "bm" have been popularized ad infinitum by people like Husky and countless others looking to increase their stock by singling him out.
Greg is a great guy that I've had the pleasure to hang out with on multiple occasions. All of this conjecture and spirited debate about his "character" is sickening.
Judge his play, judge his attitude ingame, whatever you want, but you're kidding yourself if you believe that it's appropriate to open up a debate about him as a person.
I'm amazed this wasn't locked immediately.
It really shows the hypocrisy of TL that personal attacks aren't tolerated, but a thread opened to discuss a professional player as a human being is A-OK.
O_O Tiger Woods is playing a gentlemen's sport and his "job" is not only to hit the ball but to promote and represent the values of the scene he is involved in. Golf circles are very conservative and preserved their traditions quite well for many decades. I could only relate it to the Sumo in Japan, where the Sumo wrestlers must wear traditional kimonos in public and have a specific hair cut. Getting in public scandal is absolute out of question and is career ending. Sure, the Sumo is quite an extreme example and is closely related to the local culture, but implying that Tiger Wood's job is to hit the ball and his personal life is no one's business is wrong.
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On May 07 2011 00:47 disciple wrote:
O_O Tiger Woods is playing a gentlemen's sport and his "job" is not only to hit the ball but to promote and represent the values of the scene he is involved in. Golf circles are very conservative and preserved their traditions quite well for many decades. I could only relate it to the Sumo in Japan, where the Sumo wrestlers must wear traditional kimonos in public and have a specific hair cut. Getting in public scandal is absolute out of question and is career ending. Sure, the Sumo is quite an extreme example and is closely related to the local culture, but implying that Tiger Wood's job is to hit the ball and his personal life is no one's business is wrong.
My dad went to college on a full ride golf scholarship when golf wasn't even as big as it is now.
Golf is a gentleman's sport as much as owning a plantation is.
Just because you hold the standards of the event to a certain level of respect and the formality of the play does not mean that someone's conduct off the course is up for review.
John Daly chainsmoked and drank constantly on tour, and many others have a history of being degenerates.
They were good at golf.
I can't even imagine how many alcoholic angry drunk golfers were/are on tour.
Get out of fairytale land.
It's not your business. If he goes on TV and says "I'm the best human ever," then sure, call him out when he cheats on his wife.
But any conjecture about his morals or personality or character are just that, conjecture, which is the point I was relating to this blog and the discussion of Greg as a person.
It's not your business. You're a fan. You exist as a consumer of the entertainment Tiger/Greg/others provide.
Past that, it's not your business.
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Additionally if you don't approve of his actions, then just don't watch him.
Don't watch his stream, don't youtube videos of him raging, don't comment on his skill vs. QQing as you perceive it.
Just stop and you will have made your position very clear.
The fact that you and everyone else ranting/raving about his character won't stop shows just how foolish this all is.
Just sit back and enjoy the show.
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On May 07 2011 01:03 zeru wrote:
I'm talking about his negative impact on the community in general and how the attitude he has creates negativity, irrationality and ignorance among his fans, those won't disappear by not watching him.
I completely disagree and believe that saying that greg's attitude causes negativity, irrationality, and ignorance among fans is foolish at best.
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9071 Posts
On May 07 2011 00:51 natelikewhoa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:47 disciple wrote:
O_O Tiger Woods is playing a gentlemen's sport and his "job" is not only to hit the ball but to promote and represent the values of the scene he is involved in. Golf circles are very conservative and preserved their traditions quite well for many decades. I could only relate it to the Sumo in Japan, where the Sumo wrestlers must wear traditional kimonos in public and have a specific hair cut. Getting in public scandal is absolute out of question and is career ending. Sure, the Sumo is quite an extreme example and is closely related to the local culture, but implying that Tiger Wood's job is to hit the ball and his personal life is no one's business is wrong.
My dad went to college on a full ride golf scholarship when golf wasn't even as big as it is now. Golf is a gentleman's sport as much as owning a plantation is. Just because you hold the standards of the event to a certain level of respect and the formality of the play does not mean that someone's conduct off the course is up for review. John Daly chainsmoked and drank constantly on tour, and many others have a history of being degenerates. They were good at golf. I can't even imagine how many alcoholic angry drunk golfers were/are on tour. Get out of fairytale land. It's not your business. If he goes on TV and says "I'm the best human ever," then sure, call him out when he cheats on his wife. But any conjecture about his morals or personality or character are just that, conjecture, which is the point I was relating to this blog and the discussion of Greg as a person. It's not your business. You're a fan. You exist as a consumer of the entertainment Tiger/Greg/others provide. Past that, it's not your business.
I'm not a fan only, I care a lot more about this site and the community in general than the common fan. This is our house and I want our house to be clean and shining. Having different personalities is of course great, but setting Idra's attitude as standard and looking up to him as a role model is totally unacceptable. Many fans who enjoy his play and his personality will adopt his behavior as something totally normal and OK to express yourself and your opinion on the game, your opponents and the community in general. Will it be ok if we all called our opponents "waste of life" ? Sure Idra's behavior makes things interesting but sometimes he is way out of line and ppl look up to him. Thats the whole problem
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On May 07 2011 01:14 disciple wrote:
I'm not a fan only, I care a lot more about this site and the community in general than the common fan. This is our house and I want our house to be clean and shining. Having different personalities is of course great, but setting Idra's attitude as standard and looking up to him as a role model is totally unacceptable. Many fans who enjoy his play and his personality will adopt his behavior as something totally normal and OK to express yourself and your opinion on the game, your opponents and the community in general. Will it be ok if we all called our opponents "waste of life" ? Sure Idra's behavior makes things interesting but sometimes he is way out of line and ppl look up to him. Thats the whole problem
He's not a role model.
That's the problem with parents whining about Tiger, and that's the problem with people whining about Idra.
He's a Starcraft player. His job is to win games. He's very good at his job. If you want to see him as a role model for a good Starcraft player then that would be logical.
Looking up to him as a role model as a person is nowhere near any form of rational thought, and is completely indicative of the problem with the fan->competitor relationship today.
I already posted my views on shit-talking and bm/manner/etc.
You sound foolish trying to project this sense of idealistic community.
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9071 Posts
But you straight up fail to realize there is fundamental difference between who we are RL and how we act in game environment or over the message boards. I could not care less if Idra is a nice guy and you are having a great time hanging out with him. I don't care if he was as cool as Nelson Mandela. Idra's RL personality means absolutely nothing.
I was talking about his attitude as a player inside and out the game. I guess if you want to pick Idra as a RL role model, good for you, but I was referring to adopting his manners as a player and setting them as a common standard. There's nothing idealistic about showing respect to your opponent and the community in general. I'm not trying to project any sense of idealistic community. If you think its ok to act like a jerk, or having success is a good excuse to act like one, you got it wrong.
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EPT
