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Obviously, this post is going to contain spoilers, you have been warned.
After today's games, there are only four competitors left. The TSL has taught me a number of things and cleared up a number of misconceptions I had about the non-korean scene.
NA is Inferior
Well, I suppose this was somewhat obvious after the EU-NA showmatch awhile ago. But for me, the TSL really hammered this point home. The TLOpens had NA players dropping out early week after week. Supposed "greats" like most of ROOT., EG. (where was axslav?  ) and uhh well I don't know. I guess that's apart of the inherent problem - the "big" names in the NA scene don't really match up with those who could perform. For instance, we had players like mcleod, junny, vibe and dde performing the best from NA (alongside some others). None of these guys really have a name for themselves, despite this they showed some of the great games. In particular, I want to highlight dde because he's pretty damn sick and had won a number of NA tours during the TSL qualifiers. It makes me wonder just how much of the NA scene is all hype and no substance.
But of course you have some people with a name and doing a decent job - kiwikaki, TT1, Select in particular. While none of them made it in, they all got close. More than a lot of other players can say for themselves. And then of course there are a pseudo-unknowns moonan and kawaii who are both rising talents and their TSL results are a reflection of how far they've come.
But let's face it, NA is definitely the weakest server of the three. (and yet they get the most high profile tournaments - what the fuck it up with that?)
EU > Korea?
I've seen a lot of people gloating about how the final four is comprised of four Europeans. But I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way. The EU scene is largely comprised of former War3 players with a sprinkling of BW players thrown in between. These War3 players have been actual progamers for longer than the BW guys - they have had an established progaming scene with established tournaments and large tournaments to feed off. The BW guys have had next to nothing (outside of the TSL). They have had the 'progamer training' so to speak. I don't see the Top 8 as being EU vs KR or whatever, they're just simply progamers vs progamers.
Both the Koreans and the Europeans have strong progaming backgrounds. This leads to better practice ethics, faster improvement and they already know the secrets of what it takes to be pro. Additionally, they get more tournament exposure and hence cope better under pressure. On top of this, compared to the US, the EU and KR have more tournaments - indeed the EU scene has the most with their weekly competitions being a staple part of their scene. Obviously, this fosters stronger competition inside of Europe. I mean, Sweden regularly participates in ESL Nordic and with that in mind is it really surprising that 2 of your top 4 are from Sweden? The more tournament exposure you get, the better. And I think at this rate the EU scene will overtake Korea, although I don't think that statement is true today.
Lastly, we have to remember that the Korean invites were just invites based off of their name value (more on that later). Regrettably, the TL staff couldn't hold TLOpen KR and the GSL favours player retention over letting new talent rise. As we've seen with the NA scene, a lot of the real talent is hidden away thanks to invite tournaments (cough nasl cough) and now that the game has matured, the players that were strong during the beta may not necessarily represent those who are the best today. TLOpen KR would have solved that and we would have had proper KR representation in the TSL. I suspect a number of the invites would have made it through anyway (MC, MVP, Jinro, Huk etc) but we would have possibly seen the likes of bomber (who is amazing) and july amongst others.
But most of all, keep in mind that one tournament isn't enough to conclude anything. Let's wait and see what the results of NASL and TSL4 have to say before we go and claim one server is stronger than the other.
Beta Name Value?
The TSL has also highlighted that a number of strong Beta players actually aren't that great. But there are a few that have stuck - Nani, Morrow, Hasu, TLO etc. But ultimately, there is still a lot of undiscovered talent that has switched over and we're seeing that now in the likes of Kas, Thorzain and whatnot. I think a lot of tournaments like the GSL, NASL, IPL etc have placed too much on name value so early on in SC2's life. As a result we have strange looking Code S matches and awesome talent like Bomber failing to make it through Code A. Stupid skill mis-matches in NASL and IPL's lineup is actually a joke (candidate for weakest lineup for a high profile tournament imo). I mean for crying out loud, even Idra isn't that strong anymore (blame imbalance, whatever, the only tournaments he can crush are ones where there aren't any good players playing i.e. NA only tournaments).
And yet, a player like Cruncher gets shat on by the community despite playing the game the way the developers made it? Sure Cruncher has no name value from the beta, and has no tournament results what so ever - but the TSL has proven that he is a worth competitor. He was the best performing American and showcased strong PvT (see his TLOpen victory), strong PvZ (see his games in the TSL) and strong PvP (see his series against Nani). This kid is legit yet the (predominately) idra fanboys give him so much crap for playing a boring style? Give me a break... The truth of the matter is, at this moment in time Cruncher is one of the best protoss players in the world and I don't think there is anything he can do to convince you morons otherwise. Sometimes having a boring style is something which works - see Goodfriend circa 2005 or Flash during his God run. Both had very boring styles but man, they were effective. Stop hating on talent and open your eyes.
Thank god there's a tournament organiser that can get it right...
I guess it's a bit premature, but screw it. The TSL has been impressive on all counts of professionalism and quality. It seems like every major tournament has a problem - lack of publicity (most EU tours have this problem), internet blackouts (LAN please), really average casting (pretty much 80% of tours), showing stupid filler videos, no sound, accidentally leaking your entire bracket before it was broadcast ... and the list goes on.
Its so nice just to sit down and watch some high quality starcraft without having to cringe or worry about anything going wrong. The TSL casters are amazing (Chill, Wheat, Day and Husky - wow I'm so glad they included you as well!!). I guess the TL staff being in touch with the community really does reflect in their broadcasts. They know what we want and they deliver. There's no telling TL what to do because there's no need - they got it right right from the get go. And while there are still areas of improvement, I know that the TL staff are working hard to fix these things (hello live poll) and things are drastically better from TSL2 (finals bracket leak t.t).
Closing Comments
I guess that's enough of a rant from a forum lurker. Maybe you guys have had similar thoughts or the TSL has made you realise something that you didn't before. I think that the TSL is going to be remember as one of the great tournaments of SC2's early life and I sincerely hope there are more seasons to come (and with KR TLopens!). Oh yea, and Netizen reactions are awesome <3 SiZ.Fantasy!! (oh and I hear there is a whole forum on one of the korean sites dedicated to nonkroean reactions  I wonder what it is like!)
 
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You write in a very similar fashion to Plexa.
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Welcome to TL schrei!
Although you make a good argument, I think the EU>Korea discussion is better proved in a LAN setting, not online where other factors can contribute to players demise.
Good writeup, u should consider joining TL writing staff.
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On April 25 2011 07:24 s.a.y wrote:
You write in a very similar fashion to Plexa.
nop just another lurker, but thanks for the complement (i think?)
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is awesome32278 Posts
Same happened in bw. There's always names that pop now and then (like pusan, but he sucks) but with time I guess only the real good players stay.
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On April 25 2011 07:33 IntoTheWow wrote:
Same happened in bw. There's always names that pop now and then (like pusan, but he sucks) but with time I guess only the real good players stay.
Pusan was really really bad but he probably was better suited as a coach anyway, a good example of a lasting player I'd say is Effort, even after his retirement the talk about his skill and talent never faded (nor did the haters quiet down), and now that he is coming back an even BIGGER buzz will surround him. OP do you watch BW at all? Maybe you could do a piece on how awesome Effort is  .
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is awesome32278 Posts
On April 25 2011 07:36 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 07:33 IntoTheWow wrote:
Same happened in bw. There's always names that pop now and then (like pusan, but he sucks) but with time I guess only the real good players stay. Pusan was really really bad but he probably was better suited as a coach anyway, a good example of a lasting player I'd say is Effort, even after his retirement the talk about his skill and talent never faded (nor did the haters quiet down), and now that he is coming back an even BIGGER buzz will surround him.
Well, he was probably the best BW player while he played. I mean he was like 5-2 against Flash the last month he played...
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On April 25 2011 07:37 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 07:36 Megaliskuu wrote:On April 25 2011 07:33 IntoTheWow wrote:
Same happened in bw. There's always names that pop now and then (like pusan, but he sucks) but with time I guess only the real good players stay. Pusan was really really bad but he probably was better suited as a coach anyway, a good example of a lasting player I'd say is Effort, even after his retirement the talk about his skill and talent never faded (nor did the haters quiet down), and now that he is coming back an even BIGGER buzz will surround him. Well, he was probably the best BW player while he played. I mean he was like 5-2 against Flash the last month he played...
Yeah but remember some jerk wrote an article about how bad he was? I was really offended!
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Very nice write-up, though I'd have to say that the hate on CrunCher is partially justified IMO. In almost all of his games, he either all-ins or camps on 2 base massing void ray / colossus. + Show Spoiler + I say Zerg is weak (hence no Z in RO8), but whatever.
Chill is the only caster that I actually listen to at this point...
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Another thing that is great about the TSL:
It is completely free. The stream and the VODs come in great quality and are free for everyone to watch with just tiny bits of ads. I hope this will become the modus operandi for all major tournaments in the future, but I'm afraid that with the professionalization of the scene more and more people will want to make money off of it.
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On April 25 2011 07:29 schrei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 07:24 s.a.y wrote:
You write in a very similar fashion to Plexa. nop just another lurker, but thanks for the complement (i think?)
It's a compliment.
As for the article, i would agree. But the game is still very volatile and a lot of new names spring up all of the time. oGsMC is a example of a fantastic player who's play is top notch and he is not losing almost any bo3's at all (at least not on LANs, not counting in GSL fluke), but he's more of an exception then a rule.
I would disagree on the EU > KR just because there are so many high level KR players and they are still a step above the EU on ladder. And as CN server is online now, they will probably be up there with KR and EU.
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United States11393 Posts
On April 25 2011 07:15 schrei wrote:
Beta Name Value?
And yet, a player like Cruncher gets shat on by the community despite playing the game the way the developers made it? Sure Cruncher has no name value from the beta, and has no tournament results what so ever - but the TSL has proven that he is a worth competitor. He was the best performing American and showcased strong PvT (see his TLOpen victory), strong PvZ (see his games in the TSL) and strong PvP (see his series against Nani). This kid is legit yet the (predominately) idra fanboys give him so much crap for playing a boring style? Give me a break... The truth of the matter is, at this moment in time Cruncher is one of the best protoss players in the world and I don't think there is anything he can do to convince you morons otherwise. Sometimes having a boring style is something which works - see Goodfriend circa 2005 or Flash during his God run. Both had very boring styles but man, they were effective. Stop hating on talent and open your eyes.
Yeah, it reminds me a lot of Anytime's SO1 OSL run in BW. He showcased such amazing play in one of the greatest runs ever. He showed a refreshing PvZ (see his game vs Yellow) and dominating PvT (see how he crushes both Oov, Boxer, AND Xellos) It was a very legit run and yet so many Anytime haters criticized his play as being gimmicky, bad for the game etc? His style clearly paid dividends in that it won an OSL. Other protoss at the time (such as Pusan) never even made it to an osl finals so it's clear that people need to let actions and results speak louder than words and open to their eyes to true talent and stop with the mindless hate. ;;
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On April 25 2011 07:52 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 07:15 schrei wrote:
Beta Name Value?
And yet, a player like Cruncher gets shat on by the community despite playing the game the way the developers made it? Sure Cruncher has no name value from the beta, and has no tournament results what so ever - but the TSL has proven that he is a worth competitor. He was the best performing American and showcased strong PvT (see his TLOpen victory), strong PvZ (see his games in the TSL) and strong PvP (see his series against Nani). This kid is legit yet the (predominately) idra fanboys give him so much crap for playing a boring style? Give me a break... The truth of the matter is, at this moment in time Cruncher is one of the best protoss players in the world and I don't think there is anything he can do to convince you morons otherwise. Sometimes having a boring style is something which works - see Goodfriend circa 2005 or Flash during his God run. Both had very boring styles but man, they were effective. Stop hating on talent and open your eyes.
Yeah, it reminds me a lot of Anytime's SO1 OSL run in BW. He showcased such amazing play in one of the greatest runs ever. He showed a refreshing PvZ (see his game vs Yellow) and dominating PvT (see how he crushes both Oov, Boxer, AND Xellos) It was a very legit run and yet so many Anytime haters criticized his play as being gimmicky, bad for the game etc? His style clearly paid dividends in that it won an OSL. Other protoss at the time (such as Pusan) never even made it to an osl finals so it's clear that people need to let actions and results speak louder than words and open to their eyes to true talent and stop with the mindless hate. ;;
While I don't really disagree overall, winning a tournament is not everything. Honestly, do you really think Sync and Casy are more deserving player than Midas (or until very recently Fantasy...) because of their OSL run ? Mindless hate is bad, but a tournament does not prove that much.
The pusan hate is funny, but I thought Plexa was not on tl anymore^^
And for the post quoted, lol @ flash having a boring style. I'll never understand that.
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1. Yes, NA is undoubtedly inferior. Which is kinda sad. The only Terran in NA worth watching isn't even North American, he's Korean! (Select) Europeans seem to be closing the gap with the Koreans, but the North Americans seem to have stalled. I don't know why this is, but its not a great development.
2. No .... EU is not equal to, or greater than Korea. EU is closing the gap, but still behind. I realized this after watching Whitera vs Bomber in their ICCUP match. The best Toss in EU gets his ass handed to him by a Korean most SC2 followers outside Korea have never heard of. The depth of talent in Korea is amazing.
3. I don't even like Zerg, but after watching Cruncher vs. Mondragon I could not help but feel for Zerg fans. How anyone could watch that series and not conclude PvZ has serious problems is beyond me. Crunchers arrogant victory over Idra followed by his victory over the clearly more talented Mondragon crystallized every built up frustration both Zerg and Terran players have towards Protoss, Cruncher may be very talented, but sitting in your base for 20 minutes, then marching over your opponent because of superior units, not superior play does nor engender love from the community. And don't tell me he won because he micro'd his Void-Ray/Colossus Ball so well.
4. Agreed - TSL had a great field, and very well run, but I think your being to hard on IPL. I have found the IPL matches very entertaining, and the production value equal or better than TSL. I won't comment on NASL. Too disappointing.
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I disagree with "NA has the most high profile tournaments." Of course it seems you're pointing to IPL and NASL, but remember that these are only very recent creations. Europe has long hosted the world IEM championships, had its EPS league, BlackDragon league, Dreamhack, and other countless big-name/big-hitting tournaments.
I generally agree that the North Americans on balance would lose to the Europeans [I mean, look at the Steelseries North America vs. Europe showmatch]. We don't have many superstar players that consistently can be said to dominate abroad [indeed, I'm a fan of Idra despite his BM largely because of the fact that he seemed to be the one big name that represents 'muricuh, but he has been in a slump recently, perhaps because PvZ tactics especially have shifted and his playstyle simply can't cope/hasn't evolved that much]. While you do have NA players scoring big wins, like Inc over Ensnare or Sheth in NASL [I forget who Sheth played], the issue is that they aren't as consistent as some Europeans like White-ra in getting top 3 podium wins at international tournaments. Perhaps it's an issue of culture, or maybe the North Americans tend to have more part-time players? (If it wasn't clear, this part just speculation).
I do however agree with the sentiment that up and coming players should get more lovin'. Go Cruncher, for instance .
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I feel it's great that the teamliquid staff is there to provide a great tournament like TSL. We've had top level casting, tournament organizing and behind the scenes production making it a great viewing experience. The players themselves also seem to have brought their best game to compete which makes it extra special. I still feel TSL1 and partly TSL2 were more special due to the state of the SC community at that time, but TSL3 definitely has more quality to it.
I've been cheering against cruncher the entire way due to his opponents. I really wanted both Idra and Mondragon to succeed, both because of their history in the foreign BW community but also because they were zergs. Zergs have had a particularly tough time in this tournament with Ciara being the only one to get through the open qualifiers and 2/3 of them getting eliminated in the first round of the TSL.
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United States7481 Posts
It's always funny to me how idra fans complain about cruncher's "boring style" when that is exactly how idra wants to play. i guarantee if idra played protoss he'd do it just like cruncher.
in fact I think that's where a lot of idra's rage about the style comes from - when he plays zerg like he feels sc should be played, and cruncher plays protoss like idra feels sc should be played, cruncher comes out ahead. i don't know if idra is mad that he picked the wrong race or what, but it's how he played zerg for the first 6 months of sc2 and also how he played terran in bw.
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On April 25 2011 07:15 schrei wrote:Well, I suppose this was somewhat obvious after the EU-NA showmatch awhile ago. But for me, the TSL really hammered this point home. The TLOpens had NA players dropping out early week after week. Supposed "greats" like most of ROOT., EG. (where was axslav? ) and uhh well I don't know. I guess that's apart of the inherent problem - the "big" names in the NA scene don't really match up with those who could perform.
I won't try to argue that NA players are better than the Europeans, but the times for the TLOpens specifically were favorable for Europe. Both the NA and EU TLOpens were early in the morning for NA (especially west coast) and in the afternoon for EU, and gamers typically aren't morning people. I know Axslav slept through a few of them, and I remember drewbie and a few others posting that they had done the same.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
While I personally hate cruncher for his play, but he gets the job done. He fully uses(perhaps abuses) his race its capability to destroy the Zergs, is it stupid?Perhaps, but it is not his job to play dumbed down to give the zerg a ''fair'' chance(so to speak), why would he play cute while he can just do his ''boring'' style and win. Because in the end, all that counts for the tournament is who wins, not one who plays beatifull. I may hate him for hit, but I understand it perfectly.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On April 25 2011 07:39 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 07:37 IntoTheWow wrote:On April 25 2011 07:36 Megaliskuu wrote:On April 25 2011 07:33 IntoTheWow wrote:
Same happened in bw. There's always names that pop now and then (like pusan, but he sucks) but with time I guess only the real good players stay. Pusan was really really bad but he probably was better suited as a coach anyway, a good example of a lasting player I'd say is Effort, even after his retirement the talk about his skill and talent never faded (nor did the haters quiet down), and now that he is coming back an even BIGGER buzz will surround him. Well, he was probably the best BW player while he played. I mean he was like 5-2 against Flash the last month he played... Yeah but remember some jerk wrote an article about how bad he was? I was really offended!
Yeah I could scream in anger over that guy!
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EPT
