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On March 21 2011 08:50 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:28 MiraKul wrote:
Ya think SC2 is the only (or main) game in esports? -_-" So what's up with the other games in esports, anyway? How big are they in comparison to SC2? I've been assuming that SC2 is the biggest now because of how Sundance reacted to the turnout at MLG, but I know that the fighting games at events such as Evo and various FPS, namely CS1.6 and Quake Live, are really important, too. Also Moba games. Do any ofthese compare in size to SC2 in the west?
It's probably the biggest and has the most upside of esports right now, but the counterstrike scene is still existant but tournaments are few and far between, or I should say leagues are, and its mostly designed for a specific ~10 teams.
The fighting game community is one of the largest around, you'll see it at Evo 2011 this July how big it is (they hit 50,000 viewers before SC2 ever hit 15,000). The upside for that community is enormous as well, since it has the most people that show to live events percentage wise, and along with that is the fact that America has the largest scene worldwide (Japan has the best setting for players to be great, but not the biggest prize pool/tournaments, that is DEFINITELY a US thing).
Then there is the current League of Legends community which is only hindered by the fact that replays and spectator mode aren't released to the public yet, but the following and numbers for when there are events rival that of SC2 and the FGC.
So your view of SC2 as the biggest would be EXTREMELY jaded, it is the biggest but by no means to the extent that you are making it out to be.
Summary: Sundance's word isn't god. and as for which games compare to SC2 in the west, fighting games are equal if not bigger in north america, the FPS's are as big now in terms of players, but smaller in terms of leagues/tournaments, and only heading downward not up, unlike SC2. And Moba games have the potential to blow things out of the water.
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Well... I wasn't "making it out to be" anything, I'm a newbie to esports and just thought it was the biggest  I was asking a real question!
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about the only thing you got right was sc2 will inevitably plateau at some point. but the logic used to come up with this is horribly fucked. the rest of the stuff about an esports recession, inflation and all that other shit is so terribly misguided.
it's best summed up by saying that these games dont exist in a vacuum. that answers almost every single ridiculous claim you're making.
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Everything plateaus at some point though, I wouldn't say thats something he got right more like something the world will be right about. But in the end who cares? The level SC2 is at now is either going to increase and plateau, or it'll plateau (looking at it now, its still growing, no signs that it'll level off right now, and if it did thats not the biggest deal).
So players are asking for more income, that would be nice considering what they make from the actual teams is not sustainable for living. The fact that teams pay for travel is really the biggest perk of joining a team, so when a newer team offers more money its a good thing that they're willing to give what would be equivalent to 2/3rds minimum wage, because along with tournament placings and coaching, and maybe even the team offering a team house to live in, that would be enough for a pro-gamer to do what they're in gaming to do, to survive off of what they love.
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On March 21 2011 08:05 ComusLoM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:57 infinity2k9 wrote:
GSL already lowered prize pool didn't it? I think one problem with the key sponsors of eSports is that it tends to be all of the same companies. It needs to grow in that sense with some outsider organizations to sponsor teams, not just tech companies, websites and gaming hardware businesses. BW's proscene stability and success must be somewhat attributed to the wide variety of sponsors, you got Hite, Korean Air etc. I see no sign of this anywhere even in Korea for SC2. GSL didn't lower prize pool significantly (just first few places really), it just now has a more sensible even spread, which is exactly what we need for players to be able to live off SC2. A huge prize pool spread more evenly so not only the top 4 or even 2 can survive for the next month,
Whoa wait a second. No one should be surviving from prize money. That's entirely the wrong way to go about it, tournaments are not for paying salaries.
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Events are the next step. They start with huge shock and awe prize pools (note: GSL and NASL) and run for a period of time. Then either, events start not to pay out (ESL is respectable and they take forever to pay out, what about all these new people who have no experience in eSports?) or events begin to fight for viewers because there are so many events, or they feel their “shock and awe” is over, so they lower prizes for future events, etc. This pushes things BACK TO A STABLE LEVEL.
I don't know of know of a single really big SC2 event which didn't pay yet, usually those "no experience in eSports" type of events pay faster than "respectable" because they don't know what they theoretically can get away in the scene with.
Also saying that GSL started with shock and awe prize pools and reduced thereafter doesn't consider that the Opens took longer and had 64 instead of 32 players and that all 32 Code-S players now get a salary (don't remember exactly but it was something around 1000$), which means GOM invests still about as much money into GSL as in start but in a more healthy system than putting all the money into the flashy prize pool
Compared to Counter Strike the salaries of the players are still way too low. There is SC2 matches on youtube with 1 Million views and many with 300k+. Chinese Streams in Beta had more than 150k simultaneous viewers and TSL had more than 40k just in the first round. Counter-Strike isn't bigger than that and the teams have to pay 5 players, so I don't see why SC2 salaries shouldn't grow to their value.
And don't come with players being inconsistent - a large majority of the top players regularily provides good results - of course it isn't like in CS where the same 3-4 Teams always win because SC2 is a 1vs1 Game, but its not like we see different players every event. And there is always the option to have short-term contracts or bonus systems.
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Thats a good point, I wonder if any large SC2 event hasn't paid off, the larger organizations tend to be the ones that don't pay because they are using money they don't have, and putting what little money they do have into the production to make them seem larger than normal. It's happened in a lot of league-based games that are now dead or dying, but in SC2 where the norm is invitationals and weekly cups, the money is set aside from the start, to pay out the winners.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I really don't get what you are saying about teams...theres not enough money so teams like root have to scrape by? It's not THAT hard to get sponsors, you just have to work very hard at it. It sounds like a Root problem and not an esports problem.
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Fams touched upon this topic very gently, but here's how you build an e-sports catastrophe:
Step 1: Frag. Create innumerable tournaments available to every aspiring pro StarCraft II gamer.
The Effect: These tournaments, while plentiful, now have to outdo each other in prize pools, format, production quality, etc in order to maintain viewership and participation rates (after all, that's where their value is and where they get the funding). This is okay initially because what this does is generate a friendly level of competition amongst event organizers which pushes those very people to up their quality standards and hold to their prize commitments.
Step 2: Dream big. Create gigantic, high-payout tournaments with extensive production quality and secretive foundations.
The Effect: The life of a pro gamer is looking good. Now, every pro gamer has scrapped those grassroots-level tournaments that forged their name and success and traded them for the higher, more luxurious events like the GSL, NASL, and MLG. After all, that's where the money is right? So, players wanting to make a lot of money, see these tournaments and say, "Wow...I can make quite a bit of money just by being in a few major tournaments a year. That's awesome!" Want to know what happens next? Those pro players that feel they can do well at those major tournaments and rake in the big dough start talking to their managers and teams saying, "I'm worth $__________. SC2 is where the money is. I'm going to win and I'm popular."
Well, those managers who easily have more industry experience than 99.8% of those aspiring SC2 gamers say, "Wait...you haven't done anything to earn that salary. You're assuming that because you have a semi-popular name right now, the game is popular, and you're winning an occasional tournament here and there that you're worth that figure."
You all know what happens next, right? Our dear aspiring SC2 pro gamer doesn't like that and thinks he's being undervalued. After all...those managers neither know the worth of their players nor how to pitch that player's value to sponsors! So, our dear SC2 pro gamer says, "Hell with this team. I'm going solo. I'm too restricted by my contract and I'm without rights!"
Step 3: The giants are born. Unknowingly grant an unparalleled level of power to the leading tournament organizers such as the MLGs, GSLs, and NASLs.
The Effect: Well, folks...we've asked for it. Top players are now only playing in a handful of major events because, after all, that's where the money is. So, now the grassroots-level tournaments have decreased immensely in value. There are no more big names playing in your little tournament. Lesser viewers and lesser interest means those once-engaged sponsors are going to be saying, "Hmm...I think we can put our budget elsewhere because this isn't where the action is."
But it's not all bad folks...remember those amazing tournaments that were throwing money in front of our gleaming eyes early on when the game was first starting? Oh, they're not far away. In fact, they're bigger than ever and they're filled with a plethora of team-less players because, remember, those very players no longer feel their teams are of any value because those pesky managers don't want to pay exorbitant amounts of money for their contracts.
And suddenly ladies and gentlemen, the MLG, GSL, and NASL are all looking better than ever to pro gamers everywhere. So what do these popular event organizers think during all of this? Money. This is normal because they're a business interested in generating profit (so don't look at this as greed or anything because it's really not) and structural longevity. What does MLG and the events of similar stature do? They start contracting players and they start saying, "Oh my...Mr. Pro SC2 gamer, you're amazing, we want you and we'll give you $______."
Well, that aspiring pro gamer we started with says, "Oh my! That's more than I wanted!" So, in a lust of money and general trust because they didn't look at my forum thread (just kidding) have now just signed a contract that looks pretty good to them.
But wait: What's that? MLG, NASL, and GSL now own you? You can't attend any events but theirs? They don't do any type of promotion of you as a player other than a few posters at their events? Oh no! Wait...they don't even allow you to make any money outside of MLG events? And they don't want you to engage in any interviews or media content that could promote yourself to the general public and increase your image (or if they do, you'll go through an insanely rigorous approval process)? No more personal Facebook or Twitter accounts without MLG branding? The list goes on and on! Ahhhhh!!!
Step 4: The end. Just kidding...this story gets better! Remember those teams that those top SC2 pro gamers infuriated because those pro gamers felt they were of immeasurable value? Well, they've moved on. Yep, they've found value in other avenues and no longer need those top SC2 pro gamers. In all likelihood, they've progressed so much so that SC2 to them is no longer of any more value than any other game.
The Effect: Well-funded and structured pro teams don't need you anymore and now you're in a contract that actually will pay you less in the long run, restrict you more tightly, and put more of a frown on your face than ever possible. Oh, and you can't get out of the contract either.
And that folks is how you built an e-sports catastrophe. I've only taken the time to write the above so that players and event organizers alike will think wisely before gleaming at those dollar signs and viewer counts. This may never happen and I hope it doesn't, but I do believe it's one of the possible ways it could pan out especially based on what I've seen in pro gaming and how I've seen the top SC2 players behave and talk.
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So you think MLG, GSL, and NASL are going to Kespa the disgruntled, greedy, teamless SC2 pro players?
I dunno dude, I guess I'm not familiar with the history of esports enough to know if that's happened before exactly like that, but it seems a little far-fetched to me. Some of your points don't even strike me as bad. I think it's awesome if top players don't compete in smaller tournaments; that means that we can have lower level, amateur play that's still fun and competitive with plenty to do.
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On March 22 2011 02:22 Turgid wrote:
So you think MLG, GSL, and NASL are going to Kespa the disgruntled, greedy, teamless SC2 pro players?
I dunno dude, I guess I'm not familiar with the history of esports enough to know if that's happened before exactly like that, but it seems a little far-fetched to me. Some of your points don't even strike me as bad. I think it's awesome if top players don't compete in smaller tournaments; that means that we can have lower level, amateur play that's still fun and competitive with plenty to do.
Turgid, let me clarify a few points. The point of my article is not to fear a KeSPA situation. If you thought it was, please understand that it's more of a satirical approach to the topic of how this careless embrace of SC2 being the end-all and be-all solution for e-sports is dangerous. While my post briefly references a number of issues within SC2 e-sports (questionable player salaries, event organizers bypassing team management, etc.), my point is to show why there should be a level of caution and reflection when talking about the current scene and it's future progress. There should not be this "lots of viewers = lots of value" mentality so prevalent within this scene as I feel it's a very risky position to place oneself in.
My post is merely a quickly written collaboration of everything I've seen within this scene (or industry if you'd rather call it that) and why there are people like myself (an individual heavily involved within it) that do not throw their arms around SC2 as being a saving grace to e-sports. To be blunt, it's way too early to tell what SC2 will be for e-sports. And to comment on what I referenced earlier, I'm merely pointing out that Fams touched upon the topic of player salaries very lightly (and correctly I must say). I just wanted to show why teams and such are hesitant to throwing exorbitant amounts of money at players this early on in the game by showing the trends of the scene already and by explaining that the mentality of "I'm worth ____" is an incredibly difficult claim to make as a player right now.
As for your comments that smaller tournaments mean amateur play can still be fun and competitive with plenty to do...you're absolutely right, but that's not e-sports we're talking about then. Diehard niches within PC games are everywhere and even in games that are decades old. I just don't know if two years down the road, those grassroots-level tournaments are going to look anything like what they're looking now which all relates to the topics I've spoken of above.
:D
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On March 22 2011 03:51 lectR wrote:
As for your comments that smaller tournaments mean amateur play can still be fun and competitive with plenty to do...you're absolutely right, but that's not e-sports we're talking about then. Diehard niches within PC games are everywhere and even in games that are decades old. I just don't know if two years down the road, those grassroots-level tournaments are going to look anything like what they're looking now which all relates to the topics I've spoken of above.
:D
Amateur tournaments not e-sports? So 3rd division football (non-us) is no sport? You kidding me? Tiered Tournaments would be a super welcome development as this can motivate more players to compete instead of having all tournaments won by the same 10 players over and over (as it was in WC3) or 5 Teams (CS).
And even with NASL, GSL, MLG, TSL around top players still play the small tournaments now and then when it fits their schedule.
On March 22 2011 03:51 lectR wrote:(questionable player salaries, event organizers bypassing team management, etc.)
Questionable player salaries? Don't be silly, its a free market and its the fault of the management if they pay more than a player is worth - there is so many players out there that they don't have too much negotiation capability. If Idra wants too much, EG could easily sack him and easily find a replacement for probably have the cost.
Event organizers bypassing team management? What kind of silly whine is that, its the responsibility of the team to ensure that the players don't do things of their own without consent. Don't blame event organizers for that lol, just tell your players to forward them to the team management - it's not that hard.
All in all I just have the feeling that a lot of those old and established multigaming clans (which are only where the money is) expect to make a lot of money while exploiting the players and are now hurt that it won't work in SC2.
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EPT
