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Okey so..I wrote an article this weekend, which you can read HERE.
BELOW is my response to all of the negative comments from people who didn't quite get what I was trying to say, or they just took it as something completely different.
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I just wanted to write a response to seemingly A LOT of negative views of my column today.
It seems many people saw what I wrote as either nonsensical jiberish or a stated fact of what I believed was to come, and that Starcraft 2 would somehow kill eSports’ current future. When in reality, neither of those are really the case.
What I was merely saying in my column was, that based on previous eSports world events – CGS and Warcraft 3 bubbles – that Starcraft 2 seemed be heading in the same direction. Back on both of those cases, we saw money flood into the games scenes, and eSports flourished and we saw a torrent of new faces join the communities, both fans and players alike. It was wonderful; salaries were high, events were giving out HUGE cash sums and everything was fantastic. Then, sponsors/investors did not see a return on their investment in the long run, and pulled out, and teams and events failed and we saw salaries and prize pools decrease.
eSports was not DEAD, it was simply knocked down to a stable and consistent level that could manage itself. Salaries were no longer inflated, and unreasonable events that ended up not even paying out much of the time, were weeded out of the scene. We began to improve, and recover. Teams began to be more aware of their capabilities, social media came in, and we started to grow before Starcraft 2 hit.
Once Starcraft 2 hit, it shot up like a rocket. Thousands upon thousands of new faces entered the scene, and sponsors and investors see this as an opportunity, and it is! eSports is doing wonderful right now. However, we are getting to a point, particularly with player salaries, that teams cant afford to have teams like back in the Warcraft 3 days. You don’t see teams of 10+ players all getting a good living wage. You see maybe 5-6 getting decent wages, and even quite a few, getting a living wage + perks.
The problem with this being, there are SO MANY new skilled players who do well at events, but are inconsistent, not all of them have teams or financial backing, simply because its gotten to a point where teams cant afford, nor do they want huge rosters like before. We don’t see large team leagues like we did in the past in Warcraft 3, so having more than say 5 or 6 players, is pretty pointless. This leaves VERY VALUABLE players like ROOT, out in the cold already.
Players that were before, playing either Warcraft 3 or SC:BW for free or a pittance of a wage, are now getting living standard wages in order to play full time. We are even seeing team houses pop up. But, since we dont have ENOUGH money for ALL OF THE PLAYERS, we are seeing a problem. The inflation of the wages, making them livable wages, leaves players, like ROOT, scraping poker tables for cash to pay the bills.
Events are the next step. They start with huge shock and awe prize pools (note: GSL and NASL) and run for a period of time. Then either, events start not to pay out (ESL is respectable and they take forever to pay out, what about all these new people who have no experience in eSports?) or events begin to fight for viewers because there are so many events, or they feel their “shock and awe” is over, so they lower prizes for future events, etc. This pushes things BACK TO A STABLE LEVEL.
That was all I was saying. Once this growth reaches its peak, things will slow down and growth will stop. I am NOT saying eSports is going to die or that this industry is going to suffer and be sent back to the early 2000′s. Im simply saying, that hey, things are growing incredibly fast, and sooner or later, things are going to peak, and prices (prize pools or wages) will fall down.
Who knows, maybe eSports will grow to such a high level before that happens, that wages will fall to a standard of living good enough for the top pros of current times. That would be amazing, and I would love for that to happen. This column was just an interesting perspective for people to take into reality, what is VERY POSSIBLE in the next couple of years. A lot of people are new to eSports and do not remember the days of Warcraft 3 or the mistakes of the CGS and countless other tournament organizers who pushed prices way up, then disappeared and dropped eSports on its head so to speak.
Things are different today yes, and conditions are much more favorable for players in this era of eSports, and I hope it continues on this path. I hope that clarifies things for people who were getting angry and upset with me for writing a short winded “pseudo-economics” piece to show that eSports is just like any other industry.
 
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So many wrong arguments in your OP.
First of all, esports exists since... Quakeworld I'd say ? 1997 ? So now, it's not soon, I would even say:
"Hell it's about time".
The numbers (money, audience, sponsors, teams) are still quite low, but SC2 is just the kick that will start it all for real, believe me. The only thing that misses right now is good stable leagues that provide enough media exposure to justify massive investments from a sponsor.
Once SC2 reaches that, you'll have your teams and your 10-players rosters no problem.
45K viewers tonight @TSL3, we're getting there and it's ABOUT FUCKING TIME.
My only regret is that SC2 is far from being the perfect game, only good patching and good add-ons will keep it alive more than 12 months, the game lacks spectacular battles / micro quite a lot. Bubbles vs Bubbles right now.
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So what is the argument? They have to make their rent playing poker? From what I remember ROOT has had many sponsor opportunities and is waiting for the perfect one. Anyways even if SC2 "fails" as a progame, in the next few years eSports will still benefit from it since it has at least opened many eyes to the notion of progaming.
also TSL Day 1 VOD is close to having 100K veiwers on GomTV, things are changing fast, but for the better.
Also, if you cannot pay your players you might as well make a clan.
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On March 21 2011 07:23 yejin wrote:
So many wrong arguments in your OP.
First of all, esports exists since... Quakeworld I'd say ? 1997 ? So now, it's not soon, I would even say:
"Hell it's about time".
The numbers (money, audience, sponsors, teams) are still quite low, but SC2 is just the kick that will start it all for real, believe me. The only thing that misses right now is good stable leagues that provide enough media exposure to justify massive investments from a sponsor.
Once SC2 reaches that, you'll have your teams and your 10-players rosters no problem.
45K viewers tonight @TSL3, we're getting there and it's ABOUT FUCKING TIME.
My only regret is that SC2 is far from being the perfect game, only good patching and good add-ons will keep it alive more than 12 months, the game lacks spectacular battles / micro quite a lot. Bubbles vs Bubbles right now.
I don't understand why you guys live in denial of the past. This EXACT situation has happened, TWICE already.
I hope, I REALLY HOPE, that you guys are right and that we run into so much luck you don't know what to do with it, but I don't expect it to happen.
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Have you even HEARD of OSL/MSL? Honestly, I don't want to come off as rude here, but your article is as if you are looking at esports as a novel with 10 chapters, except your version is missing chapters 3-9. Referencing Warcraft 3 and Quake in comparison to SC2? Where is Brood War? OSL/MSL is what made esports big, not shit like Warcraft 3 and Quake. That stuff is LOW-scale.
I would read up on what the OSL and MSL are, and how Brood War has developed as an eSport in Korea before you embarass yourself writing articles like this...
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United States10328 Posts
Interesting ideas; it's probably true that the growth of sc2 will plateau for a while at least--this stuff probably can't be kept up for long.
... but please, please, stop using so many caps in your posts -_-
edit: and yeah, BW is pretty successful. I guess it didn't really just keep exponentially growing forever, though, if that's your point.
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None of the situations are EXACTLY the same as you claim, its the minor differences that make outcomes of the communitys change as well, then
We've talked enough and I might attempt to write a proper rebuttal later, but when you end your article with
"we will see eSports fall back into a recession before it breaks into the mainstream. We will have to start all over again."
And come into here saying that
Once this growth reaches its peak, things will slow down and growth will stop. I am NOT saying eSports is going to die or that this industry is going to suffer and be sent back to the early 2000′s. Im simply saying, that hey, things are growing incredibly fast, and sooner or later, things are going to peak, and prices (prize pools or wages) will fall down.
So are you just writing your article in order to create interesting zingers to gain viewership or are you actually reporting.
Will, as you claim in the article, see eSports having to start all over again, or will things level off (because shit, at the state we're at, if we see levelling off thats not bad news)
Your article is claiming that we will fall into the WC3 plan of things going to zero (guess what, thats because BW was still stronger, as well as SC2 beta coming out).
Then your comeback here is that we won't go to zero, we'll see a levelling off.
Your articles HEADER SAYS IN BOLD that eSports growing too quickly could lead to a decline (presumably towards said 'zero'), then you're saying here it will grow to a levelling off point (everything does).
So the final question: Will your main claim that esports will decline come true, or will esports continue to grow to a levelling off point (not really a claim, that once again, happens to everything).
On March 21 2011 07:43 ]343[ wrote:
Interesting ideas; it's probably true that the growth of sc2 will plateau for a while at least--this stuff probably can't be kept up for long.
... but please, please, stop using so many caps in your posts -_-
edit: and yeah, BW is pretty successful. I guess it didn't really just keep exponentially growing forever, though, if that's your point.
His points are contradicting though, he claims two things, one of which is obvious and happens to everything, the other is a bold claim that is only somewhat applicable to starcraft 2 but has many major differences from the WC3 scene to come into absolute fruition except with the death of Starcraft 2 if a better RTS comes about.
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I'd like to see how the expansions play out in this. 2 separate ladders seem like it would mess with things even further. Then again, SC vanilla doesn't have a proscene, only BW.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I have a question though for everyone talking about the amount of people watching the GSL and events such as the TSL 3. Where is the revenue for the adds?a relativly large problem for sponsors is the fact that their audience is widely spread all over the world, ranging from(for example) North America all the way to Korea.
This means that sponsors will have to focus adds by using different adds for each country(for not every add works for all countries, frankly the vast majority does not). And when you split those viewers into the countries, the amount of people who are watching is frankly not worth it for a sponsor most of the time.
The reason why BW was able to survive(it still has problems finding sponsors sometimes btw)is because there is a huge fanbase there, its a culture in a single country, who watch it on TV, where adds can be directed to a relativly large audience, where the adds will reach all the people who watch it on TV.
Simply put, Korean ads for a large Korean audience, as opposed to adds for more then ~30 countries, where the audience is so widespread that its not worth it for sponsors.(Pulling that number out of my ass but you get the point). If I was an investor I would not invest in E-sports simply because I can't see it being much of a revenue.
Thing such as youtube actually also suffer from these kind of problems, it is not uncommon. Is Sc2 growing too fast?Perhaps, but I am skeptical about the future of it. The revenue add problem might cause a bubble to exist such as described by the OP.
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GSL already lowered prize pool didn't it? I think one problem with the key sponsors of eSports is that it tends to be all of the same companies. It needs to grow in that sense with some outsider organizations to sponsor teams, not just tech companies, websites and gaming hardware businesses. BW's proscene stability and success must be somewhat attributed to the wide variety of sponsors, you got Hite, Korean Air etc. I see no sign of this anywhere even in Korea for SC2.
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On March 21 2011 07:40 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Have you even HEARD of OSL/MSL? Honestly, I don't want to come off as rude here, but your article is as if you are looking at esports as a novel with 10 chapters, except your version is missing chapters 3-9. Referencing Warcraft 3 and Quake in comparison to SC2? Where is Brood War? OSL/MSL is what made esports big, not shit like Warcraft 3 and Quake. That stuff is LOW-scale.
I would read up on what the OSL and MSL are, and how Brood War has developed as an eSport in Korea before you embarass yourself writing articles like this...
Yeah, where is brood war outside of Korea? No where.
Korea has an entire stable industry where people can make a living off of what they do, their success isn't even comparable to the western models of eSports. However, my examples are western eSports, it is the same people, the same style of games, the same models of teams and events.
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On March 21 2011 07:57 infinity2k9 wrote:
GSL already lowered prize pool didn't it? I think one problem with the key sponsors of eSports is that it tends to be all of the same companies. It needs to grow in that sense with some outsider organizations to sponsor teams, not just tech companies, websites and gaming hardware businesses. BW's proscene stability and success must be somewhat attributed to the wide variety of sponsors, you got Hite, Korean Air etc. I see no sign of this anywhere even in Korea for SC2.
GSL didn't lower prize pool significantly (just first few places really), it just now has a more sensible even spread, which is exactly what we need for players to be able to live off SC2. A huge prize pool spread more evenly so not only the top 4 or even 2 can survive for the next month,
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I can't say anything about what happened to CGS since I never followed CS/Quake, but a big reason there was a "bubble" with War3 was because of the global recession ~2008-2009. Companies all over the world (including those who sponsor E-Sports) had to cut costs, and E-Sports was one of the first to go. That's when a lot of teams started shutting down, cutting salaries, etc.
The whole stagnant map pool issue (which didn't change for like 5+ years) may have also played a role, but I dunno War3 still is doing fine in China.
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On March 21 2011 07:44 Zlasher wrote:None of the situations are EXACTLY the same as you claim, its the minor differences that make outcomes of the communitys change as well, then We've talked enough and I might attempt to write a proper rebuttal later, but when you end your article with "we will see eSports fall back into a recession before it breaks into the mainstream. We will have to start all over again." And come into here saying that Show nested quote +Once this growth reaches its peak, things will slow down and growth will stop. I am NOT saying eSports is going to die or that this industry is going to suffer and be sent back to the early 2000′s. Im simply saying, that hey, things are growing incredibly fast, and sooner or later, things are going to peak, and prices (prize pools or wages) will fall down. So are you just writing your article in order to create interesting zingers to gain viewership or are you actually reporting. Will, as you claim in the article, see eSports having to start all over again, or will things level off (because shit, at the state we're at, if we see levelling off thats not bad news) Your article is claiming that we will fall into the WC3 plan of things going to zero (guess what, thats because BW was still stronger, as well as SC2 beta coming out). Then your comeback here is that we won't go to zero, we'll see a levelling off. Your articles HEADER SAYS IN BOLD that eSports growing too quickly could lead to a decline (presumably towards said 'zero'), then you're saying here it will grow to a levelling off point (everything does). So the final question: Will your main claim that esports will decline come true, or will esports continue to grow to a levelling off point (not really a claim, that once again, happens to everything). Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:43 ]343[ wrote:
Interesting ideas; it's probably true that the growth of sc2 will plateau for a while at least--this stuff probably can't be kept up for long.
... but please, please, stop using so many caps in your posts -_-
edit: and yeah, BW is pretty successful. I guess it didn't really just keep exponentially growing forever, though, if that's your point. His points are contradicting though, he claims two things, one of which is obvious and happens to everything, the other is a bold claim that is only somewhat applicable to starcraft 2 but has many major differences from the WC3 scene to come into absolute fruition except with the death of Starcraft 2 if a better RTS comes about.
It is going to drop below present levels, depending on when it peaks. If this is the peak, then yes, we will go towards what we saw in Warcraft 3, which is what I personally believe is going to happen in the next 1-2 years.
IF the growth continues (my "contradictory" point) to a new level, and peaks somewhere much higher, then begins to fall into a 'recession' then I think levels would fall to where they are currently.
"Your article is claiming that we will fall into the WC3 plan of things going to zero (guess what, thats because BW was still stronger, as well as SC2 beta coming out)."
Warcraft 3 has been stronger than BW since Warcraft 3 came onto the scene (Outside of Korea of course). Never was western BW stronger than western Warcraft 3.
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On March 21 2011 08:05 ComusLoM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:57 infinity2k9 wrote:
GSL already lowered prize pool didn't it? I think one problem with the key sponsors of eSports is that it tends to be all of the same companies. It needs to grow in that sense with some outsider organizations to sponsor teams, not just tech companies, websites and gaming hardware businesses. BW's proscene stability and success must be somewhat attributed to the wide variety of sponsors, you got Hite, Korean Air etc. I see no sign of this anywhere even in Korea for SC2. GSL didn't lower prize pool significantly (just first few places really), it just now has a more sensible even spread, which is exactly what we need for players to be able to live off SC2. A huge prize pool spread more evenly so not only the top 4 or even 2 can survive for the next month,
GSL's current prize pool is lower than the open seasons and the super tournament that's coming up some time this year, but if you look back to the announcements Gom made about season 1, this was planned FAR in advance. This is not "oops, GSL isn't successful, better pull back". It's "Alright, we got our hype out of the way in the open seasons, time to scale it back". Which was the goal from day 1.
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The problem is you can’t just look at the amount of money and enthusiasm flowing into Starcraft 2 right now and conclude that it’s an unstable bubble. Did CGS fail because there wasn’t a true demand for something like that to happen? No, it failed because it did a shitty job at delivering esports. It treated professional gaming like a novelty and hoped to merely spin some cash from that. It’s not that it couldn’t have profited if done right. The true potential of esports went unrecognised. The novelty factor is the bubble and that is what causes malinvestments; pouring money into poorly executed tournaments which don’t deliver.
I honestly don’t know how you can compare something like the GSL to CGS and come to the conclusion that the exact same thing is happening. Clearly they’re worlds apart. GSL stands on the shoulders of Korean brood war. GSL focuses on ONE genuinely competitive & popular game, as opposed to trying to jam false competition into communities which don’t even exist. Why would you have Project Gotham Racing or some shit when the competition and community isn’t even there? Nobody cares about that game and yet there it is. Why? Because they’re merely showcasing the novelty of pro-gaming, not the specific competitions themselves. All of that malinvestment into crappy games that nobody was ever even interested in because of the novelty factor.
There is no reason to have 50,000 crappy games at every event because then it’s just ‘pro-gaming’ that is supposedly popular and not the specific games themselves. It has been getting better but great strides have not been made. And what I mean by that is certain games are regularly chosen because they draw the crowds of people who are genuinely interested, but fundamentally they are just trying to cash in on just how peculiar the notion of professional gaming is. But that is not interesting and nobody cares.
I could have told you that the CGS would fail spectacularly before it even started. I truly have no idea why anybody got excited about it. It was pathetic and you could see it plainly. Also see WCG Ultimate Gamer. It is just the novelty showcased rather than sport and it is truly pathetic. I’m surprised that it even got a second season.
Now NASL could certainly end up being another CGS. If that happens it will turn off future investors and set back western esports. No doubt about that. But signs are not pointing in that direction. The guys behind it are genuinely enthusiastic about the game of Starcraft 2 itself. They want to see it happen in the way that they know is possible. It can definitely be successful. The only question to me is whether the production quality will be up to scratch and whether the casters will be any good. But if that’s not the case then again it’s merely failing to meet it’s own potential. It’s not that the potential isn’t really there.
There is no reason to conclude that the growth we are seeing now is just false signals. No, I believe we’re just finally beginning to catch up to what is possible. So it’s not a bubble; the growth is genuine.
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I can see where you're coming from in your article, but you need to consider that this notion of 'eSports' is still a vague concept and in its (pretty volatile) infancy. For much of competitive gaming's existence, there have been different communities with the various games that ran and saw things as they saw fit. We're just now starting to see a semblance of consistency and general standards and officialness and order to everything outside of Korea. I suspect this is largely because of the heavier support and advocacy of major companies and corporations (Blizzard playing a more active role, Intel continually supporting things, informative organizations like The Economist and National Geographic mentioning SC2, IGN's Soon™ announcement coming up)
You'd be jumping the gun to be making any grand claims this soon in the game, IMO.
also, I'm speaking mostly from the RTS perspective of things and how seemingly everybody has converged onto SC2
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Canada11300 Posts
Well, there is a legitimate point in that SC2 will plateau at some point, but that's not really saying much. One thing that I think did happen is the GSL is perhaps trying to grow too fast by pumping out tournaments at break neck speeds.
It was probably necessary at the beginning when it was the only big tournament, but with the NASL, MLG, and the TSL stepping up I really think the GSL could back off to a OSL or MSL schedule. We need time in between tournaments to crave more starcraft. For there to be hype, we need anticipation.
There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
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Ya think SC2 is the only (or main) game in esports? -_-"
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On March 21 2011 08:28 MiraKul wrote:
Ya think SC2 is the only (or main) game in esports? -_-"
So what's up with the other games in esports, anyway? How big are they in comparison to SC2? I've been assuming that SC2 is the biggest now because of how Sundance reacted to the turnout at MLG, but I know that the fighting games at events such as Evo and various FPS, namely CS1.6 and Quake Live, are really important, too. Also Moba games. Do any ofthese compare in size to SC2 in the west?
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On March 21 2011 08:50 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:28 MiraKul wrote:
Ya think SC2 is the only (or main) game in esports? -_-" So what's up with the other games in esports, anyway? How big are they in comparison to SC2? I've been assuming that SC2 is the biggest now because of how Sundance reacted to the turnout at MLG, but I know that the fighting games at events such as Evo and various FPS, namely CS1.6 and Quake Live, are really important, too. Also Moba games. Do any ofthese compare in size to SC2 in the west?
It's probably the biggest and has the most upside of esports right now, but the counterstrike scene is still existant but tournaments are few and far between, or I should say leagues are, and its mostly designed for a specific ~10 teams.
The fighting game community is one of the largest around, you'll see it at Evo 2011 this July how big it is (they hit 50,000 viewers before SC2 ever hit 15,000). The upside for that community is enormous as well, since it has the most people that show to live events percentage wise, and along with that is the fact that America has the largest scene worldwide (Japan has the best setting for players to be great, but not the biggest prize pool/tournaments, that is DEFINITELY a US thing).
Then there is the current League of Legends community which is only hindered by the fact that replays and spectator mode aren't released to the public yet, but the following and numbers for when there are events rival that of SC2 and the FGC.
So your view of SC2 as the biggest would be EXTREMELY jaded, it is the biggest but by no means to the extent that you are making it out to be.
Summary: Sundance's word isn't god. and as for which games compare to SC2 in the west, fighting games are equal if not bigger in north america, the FPS's are as big now in terms of players, but smaller in terms of leagues/tournaments, and only heading downward not up, unlike SC2. And Moba games have the potential to blow things out of the water.
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Well... I wasn't "making it out to be" anything, I'm a newbie to esports and just thought it was the biggest  I was asking a real question!
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about the only thing you got right was sc2 will inevitably plateau at some point. but the logic used to come up with this is horribly fucked. the rest of the stuff about an esports recession, inflation and all that other shit is so terribly misguided.
it's best summed up by saying that these games dont exist in a vacuum. that answers almost every single ridiculous claim you're making.
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Everything plateaus at some point though, I wouldn't say thats something he got right more like something the world will be right about. But in the end who cares? The level SC2 is at now is either going to increase and plateau, or it'll plateau (looking at it now, its still growing, no signs that it'll level off right now, and if it did thats not the biggest deal).
So players are asking for more income, that would be nice considering what they make from the actual teams is not sustainable for living. The fact that teams pay for travel is really the biggest perk of joining a team, so when a newer team offers more money its a good thing that they're willing to give what would be equivalent to 2/3rds minimum wage, because along with tournament placings and coaching, and maybe even the team offering a team house to live in, that would be enough for a pro-gamer to do what they're in gaming to do, to survive off of what they love.
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On March 21 2011 08:05 ComusLoM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:57 infinity2k9 wrote:
GSL already lowered prize pool didn't it? I think one problem with the key sponsors of eSports is that it tends to be all of the same companies. It needs to grow in that sense with some outsider organizations to sponsor teams, not just tech companies, websites and gaming hardware businesses. BW's proscene stability and success must be somewhat attributed to the wide variety of sponsors, you got Hite, Korean Air etc. I see no sign of this anywhere even in Korea for SC2. GSL didn't lower prize pool significantly (just first few places really), it just now has a more sensible even spread, which is exactly what we need for players to be able to live off SC2. A huge prize pool spread more evenly so not only the top 4 or even 2 can survive for the next month,
Whoa wait a second. No one should be surviving from prize money. That's entirely the wrong way to go about it, tournaments are not for paying salaries.
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Events are the next step. They start with huge shock and awe prize pools (note: GSL and NASL) and run for a period of time. Then either, events start not to pay out (ESL is respectable and they take forever to pay out, what about all these new people who have no experience in eSports?) or events begin to fight for viewers because there are so many events, or they feel their “shock and awe” is over, so they lower prizes for future events, etc. This pushes things BACK TO A STABLE LEVEL.
I don't know of know of a single really big SC2 event which didn't pay yet, usually those "no experience in eSports" type of events pay faster than "respectable" because they don't know what they theoretically can get away in the scene with.
Also saying that GSL started with shock and awe prize pools and reduced thereafter doesn't consider that the Opens took longer and had 64 instead of 32 players and that all 32 Code-S players now get a salary (don't remember exactly but it was something around 1000$), which means GOM invests still about as much money into GSL as in start but in a more healthy system than putting all the money into the flashy prize pool
Compared to Counter Strike the salaries of the players are still way too low. There is SC2 matches on youtube with 1 Million views and many with 300k+. Chinese Streams in Beta had more than 150k simultaneous viewers and TSL had more than 40k just in the first round. Counter-Strike isn't bigger than that and the teams have to pay 5 players, so I don't see why SC2 salaries shouldn't grow to their value.
And don't come with players being inconsistent - a large majority of the top players regularily provides good results - of course it isn't like in CS where the same 3-4 Teams always win because SC2 is a 1vs1 Game, but its not like we see different players every event. And there is always the option to have short-term contracts or bonus systems.
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Thats a good point, I wonder if any large SC2 event hasn't paid off, the larger organizations tend to be the ones that don't pay because they are using money they don't have, and putting what little money they do have into the production to make them seem larger than normal. It's happened in a lot of league-based games that are now dead or dying, but in SC2 where the norm is invitationals and weekly cups, the money is set aside from the start, to pay out the winners.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I really don't get what you are saying about teams...theres not enough money so teams like root have to scrape by? It's not THAT hard to get sponsors, you just have to work very hard at it. It sounds like a Root problem and not an esports problem.
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Fams touched upon this topic very gently, but here's how you build an e-sports catastrophe:
Step 1: Frag. Create innumerable tournaments available to every aspiring pro StarCraft II gamer.
The Effect: These tournaments, while plentiful, now have to outdo each other in prize pools, format, production quality, etc in order to maintain viewership and participation rates (after all, that's where their value is and where they get the funding). This is okay initially because what this does is generate a friendly level of competition amongst event organizers which pushes those very people to up their quality standards and hold to their prize commitments.
Step 2: Dream big. Create gigantic, high-payout tournaments with extensive production quality and secretive foundations.
The Effect: The life of a pro gamer is looking good. Now, every pro gamer has scrapped those grassroots-level tournaments that forged their name and success and traded them for the higher, more luxurious events like the GSL, NASL, and MLG. After all, that's where the money is right? So, players wanting to make a lot of money, see these tournaments and say, "Wow...I can make quite a bit of money just by being in a few major tournaments a year. That's awesome!" Want to know what happens next? Those pro players that feel they can do well at those major tournaments and rake in the big dough start talking to their managers and teams saying, "I'm worth $__________. SC2 is where the money is. I'm going to win and I'm popular."
Well, those managers who easily have more industry experience than 99.8% of those aspiring SC2 gamers say, "Wait...you haven't done anything to earn that salary. You're assuming that because you have a semi-popular name right now, the game is popular, and you're winning an occasional tournament here and there that you're worth that figure."
You all know what happens next, right? Our dear aspiring SC2 pro gamer doesn't like that and thinks he's being undervalued. After all...those managers neither know the worth of their players nor how to pitch that player's value to sponsors! So, our dear SC2 pro gamer says, "Hell with this team. I'm going solo. I'm too restricted by my contract and I'm without rights!"
Step 3: The giants are born. Unknowingly grant an unparalleled level of power to the leading tournament organizers such as the MLGs, GSLs, and NASLs.
The Effect: Well, folks...we've asked for it. Top players are now only playing in a handful of major events because, after all, that's where the money is. So, now the grassroots-level tournaments have decreased immensely in value. There are no more big names playing in your little tournament. Lesser viewers and lesser interest means those once-engaged sponsors are going to be saying, "Hmm...I think we can put our budget elsewhere because this isn't where the action is."
But it's not all bad folks...remember those amazing tournaments that were throwing money in front of our gleaming eyes early on when the game was first starting? Oh, they're not far away. In fact, they're bigger than ever and they're filled with a plethora of team-less players because, remember, those very players no longer feel their teams are of any value because those pesky managers don't want to pay exorbitant amounts of money for their contracts.
And suddenly ladies and gentlemen, the MLG, GSL, and NASL are all looking better than ever to pro gamers everywhere. So what do these popular event organizers think during all of this? Money. This is normal because they're a business interested in generating profit (so don't look at this as greed or anything because it's really not) and structural longevity. What does MLG and the events of similar stature do? They start contracting players and they start saying, "Oh my...Mr. Pro SC2 gamer, you're amazing, we want you and we'll give you $______."
Well, that aspiring pro gamer we started with says, "Oh my! That's more than I wanted!" So, in a lust of money and general trust because they didn't look at my forum thread (just kidding) have now just signed a contract that looks pretty good to them.
But wait: What's that? MLG, NASL, and GSL now own you? You can't attend any events but theirs? They don't do any type of promotion of you as a player other than a few posters at their events? Oh no! Wait...they don't even allow you to make any money outside of MLG events? And they don't want you to engage in any interviews or media content that could promote yourself to the general public and increase your image (or if they do, you'll go through an insanely rigorous approval process)? No more personal Facebook or Twitter accounts without MLG branding? The list goes on and on! Ahhhhh!!!
Step 4: The end. Just kidding...this story gets better! Remember those teams that those top SC2 pro gamers infuriated because those pro gamers felt they were of immeasurable value? Well, they've moved on. Yep, they've found value in other avenues and no longer need those top SC2 pro gamers. In all likelihood, they've progressed so much so that SC2 to them is no longer of any more value than any other game.
The Effect: Well-funded and structured pro teams don't need you anymore and now you're in a contract that actually will pay you less in the long run, restrict you more tightly, and put more of a frown on your face than ever possible. Oh, and you can't get out of the contract either.
And that folks is how you built an e-sports catastrophe. I've only taken the time to write the above so that players and event organizers alike will think wisely before gleaming at those dollar signs and viewer counts. This may never happen and I hope it doesn't, but I do believe it's one of the possible ways it could pan out especially based on what I've seen in pro gaming and how I've seen the top SC2 players behave and talk.
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So you think MLG, GSL, and NASL are going to Kespa the disgruntled, greedy, teamless SC2 pro players?
I dunno dude, I guess I'm not familiar with the history of esports enough to know if that's happened before exactly like that, but it seems a little far-fetched to me. Some of your points don't even strike me as bad. I think it's awesome if top players don't compete in smaller tournaments; that means that we can have lower level, amateur play that's still fun and competitive with plenty to do.
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On March 22 2011 02:22 Turgid wrote:
So you think MLG, GSL, and NASL are going to Kespa the disgruntled, greedy, teamless SC2 pro players?
I dunno dude, I guess I'm not familiar with the history of esports enough to know if that's happened before exactly like that, but it seems a little far-fetched to me. Some of your points don't even strike me as bad. I think it's awesome if top players don't compete in smaller tournaments; that means that we can have lower level, amateur play that's still fun and competitive with plenty to do.
Turgid, let me clarify a few points. The point of my article is not to fear a KeSPA situation. If you thought it was, please understand that it's more of a satirical approach to the topic of how this careless embrace of SC2 being the end-all and be-all solution for e-sports is dangerous. While my post briefly references a number of issues within SC2 e-sports (questionable player salaries, event organizers bypassing team management, etc.), my point is to show why there should be a level of caution and reflection when talking about the current scene and it's future progress. There should not be this "lots of viewers = lots of value" mentality so prevalent within this scene as I feel it's a very risky position to place oneself in.
My post is merely a quickly written collaboration of everything I've seen within this scene (or industry if you'd rather call it that) and why there are people like myself (an individual heavily involved within it) that do not throw their arms around SC2 as being a saving grace to e-sports. To be blunt, it's way too early to tell what SC2 will be for e-sports. And to comment on what I referenced earlier, I'm merely pointing out that Fams touched upon the topic of player salaries very lightly (and correctly I must say). I just wanted to show why teams and such are hesitant to throwing exorbitant amounts of money at players this early on in the game by showing the trends of the scene already and by explaining that the mentality of "I'm worth ____" is an incredibly difficult claim to make as a player right now.
As for your comments that smaller tournaments mean amateur play can still be fun and competitive with plenty to do...you're absolutely right, but that's not e-sports we're talking about then. Diehard niches within PC games are everywhere and even in games that are decades old. I just don't know if two years down the road, those grassroots-level tournaments are going to look anything like what they're looking now which all relates to the topics I've spoken of above.
:D
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On March 22 2011 03:51 lectR wrote:
As for your comments that smaller tournaments mean amateur play can still be fun and competitive with plenty to do...you're absolutely right, but that's not e-sports we're talking about then. Diehard niches within PC games are everywhere and even in games that are decades old. I just don't know if two years down the road, those grassroots-level tournaments are going to look anything like what they're looking now which all relates to the topics I've spoken of above.
:D
Amateur tournaments not e-sports? So 3rd division football (non-us) is no sport? You kidding me? Tiered Tournaments would be a super welcome development as this can motivate more players to compete instead of having all tournaments won by the same 10 players over and over (as it was in WC3) or 5 Teams (CS).
And even with NASL, GSL, MLG, TSL around top players still play the small tournaments now and then when it fits their schedule.
On March 22 2011 03:51 lectR wrote:(questionable player salaries, event organizers bypassing team management, etc.)
Questionable player salaries? Don't be silly, its a free market and its the fault of the management if they pay more than a player is worth - there is so many players out there that they don't have too much negotiation capability. If Idra wants too much, EG could easily sack him and easily find a replacement for probably have the cost.
Event organizers bypassing team management? What kind of silly whine is that, its the responsibility of the team to ensure that the players don't do things of their own without consent. Don't blame event organizers for that lol, just tell your players to forward them to the team management - it's not that hard.
All in all I just have the feeling that a lot of those old and established multigaming clans (which are only where the money is) expect to make a lot of money while exploiting the players and are now hurt that it won't work in SC2.
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EPT
