One thing that unites all of us on Teamliquid is that we've all received an education. We've all experienced years of it, from the elementary school days when everyone received straight A's to the hours spent cramming for exams. You're all masters of learning.
You all know what's good and bad about the educational system. The one we're using today is outdated, and corrupt. We learn a lot of useless shit and too many people fall through the gaps. This is at least my opinion.
So I have a question. You're the new head of education in your country. How would you change the way education is taught? Would you change it?
Here's an example of how I would change education given my current experiences in University. + Show Spoiler +
I think my University is pretty hard, it's like the only big University in North America that hasn't yet subscribed (to some degree) to grade inflation. Average GPA for Engineers is still a 2.3, while the entering GPA of high school students is an 89.
I won't comment about the usefulness of my major since I have not yet graduated, I think that we students were taught a great deal of breadth, but not enough depth. In addition, I was hoping for real world applications to my courses, courses on the approaches to learning, to researching information that you didn't understand, to being responsible with credit cards, etc...
However one thing that I'd like to focus on is the number of assignments that we were given. Every week our merciless professors handed us five or six assignments with weekly quizzes and tests. Each day was just trying to finish the next assignment, which was rather counterproductive since, by giving us so many graded assignments, the professors actually hindered our learning. We students didn't have the time to learn the material, we just had to provide answers to questions and submit our reports. So the focus was not on learning the material, but rather on just looking for that blurb in the textbook that would allow us to plug in an answer to our questions.
The assignments were worth very little, 1 or 2% but it felt very important to get as many percentages as possible. Still, sometimes I think it would have been more productive to skip assignments and just focus on learning.
FUCK this SHIT! Were I head of education in Canada, I'd try to make sure that every student who wanted to try hard, succeeded and became a better person because of their education.
Instead of having professors give out a jazillion assignments, (which would inadvertantly lead to cheating and copying from overworked students then leading to the students not learning anything) I'd try to immerse the students in their assignments. I'd put them in a tutorial in front of their computers and have them go through everything in a step by step process.
Instead of using labs as a grading tool, students should be shown how to do their labs. Too much of University is just trying to get through the work, and memorizing formulas and steps to doing problems. I want to be immersed in the problem solving process. I want to understand my field. I want to know that I have the skills needed to do my job once I graduate.
This may sound like I miss having my hand held like in high school or middle school... but that's not it. I want to learn, and if that means that I need to have my hand held to do it, then so be it. It's better than 8 hours staring at a textbook trying to understand some technical jargon, and knowing that I can't even ask my professors face to face in a class of 120!
Simply put, I would make tutorials (classes where a graduate student known as a teaching assistant works with students) graded by attendance rather than testing the students on whether they did an assignment. I would have the teaching assistants go through the steps of how to do things in a step by step process, and having the students try it out themselves... slowly.
I think Universities should be obligated to make sure that once a student gets accepted, they are given the tools they need to succeed. (My school just started offering free tutoring... if you decide to skip lunch you can ask a paid grad student how to do a problem from a course they've long since forgotten the name of).
One thing my school is good for though, is being ridiculously hard on engineeers, so they learn to be more productive. But other than that, I'm going to come out of this school with less practical knowledge than I would have had I gone to community college... not to mention, probably a higher GPA to find jobs with.
Education comes from the latin 'educo' meaning to develop or draw out from within.
You are not gaining a lot of education through cramming and studying for tests. How much information you can remember from your textbook is not necessarily a reflection of how much education you are attaining. Education is attained through the development of your mental faculties (Imagination, will, reason, intuition, etc...) and then producing results that you desire, without violating the rights of others.
The public school system is also terrible. It teaches math, english, science, and history. From that children are expected to understand thinking. You do learn a lot about thinking this way, but without knowing exactly what is required to think effectively, the system is incomplete. Children also are not taught much about perspective, making decisions, the subconscious mind (its programming is responsible for 98% of your actions), etc... It really only sets people up to work at 9-5 jobs that they dislike rather than living life how they want to live...making as much money as they desire to live the life they want to live.
If I were to restructure the education where I went to grade school, I'd change the elementary, intermediate, and senior high system.Elementary school will be from K - 6th. Middle School is gone. High school will be from 7th to 10th or 11th grade depending on how fast you finish or if you wanna have a less workload. I then would proceed to start making classes last for only one semester. That means AP tests will be administered every semester, not just in May. Then, I'd start the school day at around 9AM and let it end around 7PM. There will be a break for lunch where you could go home, study, or do whatever you do from 12PM to 2PM. Since classes don't span a whole year, you can take 3-5 classes a semester. You would only take those 3-5 classes daily and have a whole new set next semester. Also, in high school, you can take specialized tracks starting in 9th grade. Tracks for if you want to become musician, engineer, journalist, and whatever.
my school bones me in the butt with gpa too true facts
but seriously i would put more money into the average kids. the ways most schools work are:
top 10% of kids = 30% of funding bottom 10% of kids (i.e. special ed) = 50% of funding remaining 80% = 20% of funding
basically the more top students schools produce the better they look, so there's an incentive to boost the top kids. There are also subsidies to help disabled kids so they get a lot of funding too. But the middle kids get squat, and end up basically... average. They need to be taught to exceed in other ways, like creativity. Creativity, while certainly encouraged more in US schools, is still not as encouraged as I think should be necessary to create people with new ideas. Sure you have a lot of these super smart 12-14 year olds going to school because they've memorized all of the world's history or whatnot, but you never hear a lot of them amount to anything. It's because their creative complexes have been stunted with their memorization.
We live in an age where you basically need a college degree to do anything. But in the 1980s, we had people that were heads of Wall Street that barely finished high school. And they were doing just fine without a degree. Instead of producing a narrow system where everybody needs a college degree to go anywhere (and therefore, gets essentially brainwashed just a little bit more) we should favor a system where less people need to go through college to do things they want in life. Advancement should be possible whether or not you have a PhD or don't even have a GRE. Some people just hate school, that's all.
As a teacher, I'd say privatizing education would go a LONG way in helping the collective educational prospects in the nation. That, and the wholesale acknowledgment by the communities we work in that we're actually doing a job xD
Can't tell you amount of shit you get as a teacher. Nor the degree of political finagling that goes on within a school board and it's relationship with a community. It's downright DISGUSTING. Total overhaul would be nice. And my solution would be privatized education that would function the same as our current system, but where by schools compete for students under the state's umbrella. Greater latitude for teachers to adjust themselves per class would be nice too.
Honestly, there's just so much shit I would change, and I don't have the time to write it all.
Also, Caller has the right idea. College is NOT for everyone. People need to realize that a degree is just a piece of paper that says, "I jumped through the hoops," nothing more. It has not actual reflection on the skills of that person outside of a cursory understanding that they can write a paper (which is a very useful skill given some professions).
On January 02 2011 12:41 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: One thing that unites all of us on Teamliquid is that we've all received an education. We've all experienced years of it, from the elementary school days when everyone received straight A's to the hours spent cramming for exams. You're all masters of learning.
You all know what's good and bad about the educational system. The one we're using today is outdated, and corrupt. We learn a lot of useless shit and too many people fall through the gaps. This is at least my opinion.
So I have a question. You're the new head of education in your country. How would you change the way education is taught? Would you change it?
Here's an example of how I would change education given my current experiences in University. + Show Spoiler +
I think my University is pretty hard, it's like the only big University in North America that hasn't yet subscribed (to some degree) to grade inflation. Average GPA for Engineers is still a 2.3, while the entering GPA of high school students is an 89.
I won't comment about the usefulness of my major since I have not yet graduated, I think that we students were taught a great deal of breadth, but not enough depth. In addition, I was hoping for real world applications to my courses, courses on the approaches to learning, to researching information that you didn't understand, to being responsible with credit cards, etc...
However one thing that I'd like to focus on is the number of assignments that we were given. Every week our merciless professors handed us five or six assignments with weekly quizzes and tests. Each day was just trying to finish the next assignment, which was rather counterproductive since, by giving us so many graded assignments, the professors actually hindered our learning. We students didn't have the time to learn the material, we just had to provide answers to questions and submit our reports. So the focus was not on learning the material, but rather on just looking for that blurb in the textbook that would allow us to plug in an answer to our questions.
The assignments were worth very little, 1 or 2% but it felt very important to get as many percentages as possible. Still, sometimes I think it would have been more productive to skip assignments and just focus on learning.
FUCK this SHIT! Were I head of education in Canada, I'd try to make sure that every student who wanted to try hard, succeeded and became a better person because of their education.
Instead of having professors give out a jazillion assignments, (which would inadvertantly lead to cheating and copying from overworked students then leading to the students not learning anything) I'd try to immerse the students in their assignments. I'd put them in a tutorial in front of their computers and have them go through everything in a step by step process.
Instead of using labs as a grading tool, students should be shown how to do their labs. Too much of University is just trying to get through the work, and memorizing formulas and steps to doing problems. I want to be immersed in the problem solving process. I want to understand my field. I want to know that I have the skills needed to do my job once I graduate.
This may sound like I miss having my hand held like in high school or middle school... but that's not it. I want to learn, and if that means that I need to have my hand held to do it, then so be it. It's better than 8 hours staring at a textbook trying to understand some technical jargon, and knowing that I can't even ask my professors face to face in a class of 120!
Simply put, I would make tutorials (classes where a graduate student known as a teaching assistant works with students) graded by attendance rather than testing the students on whether they did an assignment. I would have the teaching assistants go through the steps of how to do things in a step by step process, and having the students try it out themselves... slowly.
I think Universities should be obligated to make sure that once a student gets accepted, they are given the tools they need to succeed. (My school just started offering free tutoring... if you decide to skip lunch you can ask a paid grad student how to do a problem from a course they've long since forgotten the name of).
One thing my school is good for though, is being ridiculously hard on engineeers, so they learn to be more productive. But other than that, I'm going to come out of this school with less practical knowledge than I would have had I gone to community college... not to mention, probably a higher GPA to find jobs with.
I don't have many complaints, the system worked very well for me. I'd stop giving admissions advantages to kids from private schools and instead put heavier emphasis on standardized testing
I haven't watched the entire video, but so far the video made a very good point:
Public school according to zip code is not fair. In Toronto, regions with good public schools (such as A.Y. Jackson) have very high land price.
Part of my argument for privatizing education, at least partially. Give the parents a choice as to where they send their children and you make the schools compete for students, thus resulting in superior education programs.
Well I got about six minutes into the video... I really enjoyed watching them compare a group clearly unprivileged minorities with an all white, well groomed and obviously upper class group of Belgians.
OP makes it sound like the professors just give you a text book and tell you to learn everything in it and prepare for an exam at the end of the semester. I'm not quite sure how it is at other universities, but even at my university, which is a large public university, there are plenty of resources freely available to students if you reach out just a little. There's free tutoring, office hours, online tutoring, etc. And the assignments may seem pointless, they may even be pointless as far as your future career is concerned, but they are necessary to weed out the students who are just there to party, or lack the skills to succeed later on in their major and career. Last semester I felt like 99% of the assignments I had to complete were pointless for me, just look up the answer in the textbook and extract the useful information needed to complete the webwork. But just like doing something rote like copying notes is very useful for learning information, it turned out to help me a bunch. I didn't study at all for my finals and aced every one of them simply because I stayed awake in class, did all the webwork, and understood the labs.
I never got the impression that the labs or recitations were simply being used as a grading tool. Its really not difficult to write an A or a B lab report, and if students don't understand the lab, they can always talk with a TA.
As far as university level education goes, I think everything is ok. You have to endure jumping through hoops for the first couple of years, but it really is necessary to make sure everyone in a major is qualified for upper division classes.
For high school and younger, I would have to say there are a lot of problems, some of them related to the way public schools are set up. I spent my high school years bouncing around between a few charter schools, all of which proved better than typical public schools. Besides the fact that you get to know your teachers better (Students at the first charter school I attended often played with some teachers at a nearby PC bang type lan cafe), charter schools have more freedom on how to set up their curriculum. The weakest part of public school education is that it doesn't require students to write well or think critically. You'd be surprised at how many kids in college don't know how to put together a reasonably organized and thought out paper. A lot of the redundancies in undergraduate education are probably put in place to make sure that students pick up skills they really should have learned in high school or sooner.
There's so much to say. I have so many problems with education on every level. I'm very happy that our school was far better than everywhere else. I think I managed to get some of the best teachers possible which by a national standard is a freaking miracle.
I'll post more when I can think of a really solid synopsis of my ideas since this is a really intriguing OP.
Well I got about six minutes into the video... I really enjoyed watching them compare a group clearly unprivileged minorities with an all white, well groomed and obviously upper class group of Belgians.
Honestly. >_> I'm more infuriated by this video than by the educational system because it just showcases America's dying media. My high school has a top of the line math team with kids who can compete internationally and get 3rd in the world together, yet they never get showcased. Also, that Belgian kid who said, oh, this is so easy? Yeah, you shouldn't be saying that when you get only 76% of the questions right. -____-"
But really, how would I change the school system? I wouldn't, yet. I'd change the culture first. America has such a crappy culture toward education where the smart kids get looked down upon as nerds, creating a schism. Who wants to be a nerd, a dork, or a geek? Also, who wants to learn about math? Who wants to think? I just wanna plug numbers into a formula and get an answer. -_-" That part annoys me the most because I see it even from my good friends when they start taking a well-taught math class. =/ They blame the teacher for them not learning because the teacher doesn't spoon feed them.
Parents also don't help this as they always blame some other cause for their kids failing. Blame the school system, blame the teachers, but never blame your kids or your parenting! I mean, if they don't listen in class, it's the teachers fault, not the parents! No, it's the parents' fault for not instilling some sense of obedience through disciplining the kids. It still goes on today. My kids are obese! Schools need to change their diets! No, maybe you should stop buying McDonalds for dinner every night and get them to eat some vegetables.
Blah, point is, kids are too dependent these days, and parents don't take enough responsibility. High School education in America is decent enough a lot of the times. I mean, even if you can't learn in class, there's ALWAYS a library *be thankful for that* that you can go to and read classics to expand your mind.
As for college, I feel like American colleges are doing fine considering MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Princeton are considered amongst the best in the world. =/
On January 02 2011 16:53 ghrur wrote: Honestly. >_> I'm more infuriated by this video than by the educational system because it just showcases America's dying media. My high school has a top of the line math team with kids who can compete internationally and get 3rd in the world together, yet they never get showcased. Also, that Belgian kid who said, oh, this is so easy? Yeah, you shouldn't be saying that when you get only 76% of the questions right. -____-"
<snip>
As for college, I feel like American colleges are doing fine considering MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Princeton are considered amongst the best in the world. =/
Too bad your school doesn't have a top of the line critical thinking team LOL Do they teach the concept of averages at your school? Are you seriously trying to cherry pick the top performers and claim they're an accurate representation of the American educational system as a whole? Never mind math, even your listening comprehension is wrong. I think you've made your point, just not the one you were trying to make.
Here in Slovakia we have really bad teachers. they cant teach and sometimes they just dont and prefer to read newspapers. Im in school 7 hours a day and i have maybe 2 lessons where im actually learning something. We should change teachers and im serious right now they SUCK ! Its like my payment is low im not going to teach you anything today... But there are some AWESOME ULTRA COOL AMAZING teachers who are doing they best but its not so often.
On January 02 2011 16:53 ghrur wrote: But really, how would I change the school system? I wouldn't, yet. I'd change the culture first. America has such a crappy culture toward education where the smart kids get looked down upon as nerds, creating a schism. Who wants to be a nerd, a dork, or a geek? Also, who wants to learn about math? Who wants to think? I just wanna plug numbers into a formula and get an answer. -_-" That part annoys me the most because I see it even from my good friends when they start taking a well-taught math class. =/ They blame the teacher for them not learning because the teacher doesn't spoon feed them.
I completely agree with this.
I'd go even further and say that iIn an ideal world school would be about fostering curiosity about the world. The kids would do much of the learning by themselves as part of a group activity. I mean we shield kids because they are supposedly "impressionable", yet we can't "impression" them to learn. Despite the fact that curiousity is a natural instinct.
In reality society and the current education system is actually making kids less interested in learning and that's just wrong. Even many parents who are concerned about their children's education frame it as duty instead of a natural exploration of the world, which it really is.
On January 02 2011 12:52 tryummm wrote: Children also are not taught much about the subconscious mind (its programming is responsible for 98% of your actions)
I don't necessarily disagree with most of the rest of your post, but where'd you get that number from? :p
On January 02 2011 12:52 tryummm wrote: Children also are not taught much about the subconscious mind (its programming is responsible for 98% of your actions)
I don't necessarily disagree with most of the rest of your post, but where'd you get that number from? :p
i assume he got it from his subconscious :p
i don't think america has as big as a problem as some people point out, the universities/colleges are still competitive as fuck. those kids that are failing in the video seem to be failing because they don't have proper discipline and schools literally cannot teach discipline, that's up to the parents and the parents are just blaming the schools for their short comings. i'm not a parent myself, but coming from a poor family i do understand how discipline and hard work builds character.
hm I think even as early as primary school (4-10/11 years old) in the last 2 years and then throughout high school students should be taught some form of philosophy. Starts you thinking about things that actually matter, forms your opinions, gets an intellectual atmosphere going.
Also I think as early as primary school and through the early years of high school there should be classes on study skills and also reasons for studying. What benefits you get from doing well at school and then university. Not necessarily telling them you'll get a job at the end, but telling them they'll develop intellectually, enjoy studying the subject they find themselves drawn to, be better equipped for life and so on. So many people go through primary and secondary without anyone really sitting down and telling them what the benefits and purposes of it are. Mainly its just...well state funded and by law you must go for like 14 years of your life and thats it. No real motivation factor. Therefore people think others are geeks when they actually do what they are there for. When in fact everyone should be striving for intellectual growth in school. If there is no motivation how can you expect students to attend, listen and study and be disciplined.
Thats the problem in my country and I speak being as one who spent high school playing SC and CS:S and the only studying i done for any test, even the important ones. Was about an hour or 2. Now I go to the second best uni in the country and I'm doing well because I have purpose for being there and getting the degree.
One thing my school is good for though, is being ridiculously hard on engineeers, so they learn to be more productive. But other than that, I'm going to come out of this school with less practical knowledge than I would have had I gone to community college... not to mention, probably a higher GPA to find jobs with.
[/spoiler]
I'm also an engineer. (from Queen's) University doesn't teach you practical knowledge. It is much more theoretical. The reason being, is that you need to understand the theory before you can learn how to solve problems. And 4 years is not going to bring you any close to industry standing for cutting edge technology. It is enough to build the foundations for you to build upon in your work-term, or first job. I have no problems with the core skills but I think they should offer more communication and presentation courses. this is something I find they lack in engineering.
On January 02 2011 16:53 ghrur wrote: Honestly. >_> I'm more infuriated by this video than by the educational system because it just showcases America's dying media. My high school has a top of the line math team with kids who can compete internationally and get 3rd in the world together, yet they never get showcased. Also, that Belgian kid who said, oh, this is so easy? Yeah, you shouldn't be saying that when you get only 76% of the questions right. -____-"
<snip>
As for college, I feel like American colleges are doing fine considering MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Princeton are considered amongst the best in the world. =/
Too bad your school doesn't have a top of the line critical thinking team LOL Do they teach the concept of averages at your school? Are you seriously trying to cherry pick the top performers and claim they're an accurate representation of the American educational system as a whole? Never mind math, even your listening comprehension is wrong. I think you've made your point, just not the one you were trying to make.
I like your dig at me for critical thinking. Very nice ad hominem. Too bad I never even stated that I was on the top of the line math team, so insulting me doesn't reduce the credibility of the people who are on it. Still, classy. It's ironic you speak of cherry picking when you completely ignored the post I quoted. Did you not understand that the video most likely cherry picked its subject to further illustrate its point? Furthermore, you talk of averages. What do you define as average? If I were to go out into the street and pick random samples, would I be sampling the average American? But that depends on the street! I doubt it'd work if I were outside of Wall Street interviewing Ivy League graduates in Business and Econ. I doubt it'd also work if I were outside of 42nd Street in Chicago or something and were interviewing poor, underprivileged minorities. So seriously, tell me, how do you FIND this average? As for the video itself, which I was mainly talking about, do you honestly believe they gave you the average kids? It mainly included of black kids, but if it were accurate to the demographics of the United States, they would have included 65% Whites, 12.5% Blacks, 11.8% Hispanics, and 4.5% Asians. Yeah, I highly doubt they used those percentages at all when they filmed their sample. This brings me to your "using the top" point. I don't understand how I said in any way that the top performers should be the representation of the American educational system. You're just unfairly extrapolating my statements there. For the first part, I was merely stating that the top kids in America hardly get represented at all! For the part about the top Universities, I was comparing them to other top Universities in the world *even explicitly so* and saying they're doing well in that regard. Nowhere did I say the top are doing well, so all others must be too. It's simply that I don't have a problem with our college educational system. After all, if the others are doing poorly and the top are excelling, then just work harder to get into the top Universities.
On January 02 2011 12:52 tryummm wrote: Children also are not taught much about the subconscious mind (its programming is responsible for 98% of your actions)
I don't necessarily disagree with most of the rest of your post, but where'd you get that number from? :p
i assume he got it from his subconscious :p
i don't think america has as big as a problem as some people point out, the universities/colleges are still competitive as fuck. those kids that are failing in the video seem to be failing because they don't have proper discipline and schools literally cannot teach discipline, that's up to the parents and the parents are just blaming the schools for their short comings. i'm not a parent myself, but coming from a poor family i do understand how discipline and hard work builds character.
Largely true, but at the same time parents aren't punished for their kids being undisciplined. The system works to punish the kids, the teachers, and the schools. Parents are completely without responsibility.
If it were up to me, there would be some sort of punishment for skipping school, getting in trouble, and doing poorly for the parents. Heck, give them a fine if their kid fails a grade, skips school, or gets expelled or something. That'll solve the problem real quick when mommy or daddy has to pay up when their kid screws off. It also is like saying "hey, if you want to raise someone who won't be beneficial to society then you're going to pay the price."
Another unrelated problem is the fact that schools keep kids in classes way too long. Kids literally have to sit in classes for 6/7+ hours. Many of us are in college, but how many of us in college actually have 7 hours of classes in a row. Sure I might spend upwards 10-12 hours on work a day sometimes, or even more, but that's not sitting in a classroom. Maybe 3 hours of that is in a classroom.
It's really really hard to learn when you're literally trapped in a place for so long every day. It definitely feels more like a prison than a learning institution. I think a longer school day is fine for elementary school, since most of elementary school is silly stuff, but once high school rolls around I don't see the benefit. I'd rather see high school be more like 4 hours of core classes and then optional elective classes for another 2-4 hours. In the end it'd actually be pretty similar, but it wouldn't obligate students to a massive schoolday. We always dicked off a lot in class too cause it was the only way to make that much time seem bearable.
I could literally write a book on what I'd fix, but then I'd be passing up on some serious profit =P
Getting into a university should be restricted to great students only. This way highest education would not be as inflated as it is now. This will also give a boost to technical schools and specialized colleges, they can concentrate on preparing students to work in specific fields and attain that 'real-life experience' that OP was raving about. People like him should not be studying at universities to begin with.
On January 03 2011 04:16 news wrote: Getting into a University should be restricted to great students only. This way highest education would not be as inflated as it is now. This will also give a boost to technical schools and specialized colleges, they can concentrate on preparing students to work in specific fields and attain that 'real-life experience' that OP was raving about. People like him should not be studying at universities to begin with.
OP, here Yes, I'll agree with this statement. Some universities should be restricted to those who want to get into grad school and have the skills necessary to make it there.
I had no idea what University was like when I was applying. I just applied because everyone was doing it. I haven't gained too much practical knowledge that I think I can use.
I talked to one of my professors about the issue and he says that the useless courses are taught to us because it helps us to develop critical thinking skills, the grey matter in our brains. He also says that while we may not need to memorize differential equations, we should understand them and be able to interpret what our computer program gives us.
The problem in Canada though, is that all engineering students are held to this standard. In order to graduate as an engineer, a student must take X math type A courses, and Y science tybe B courses... that's why we learn so much useless shit.
In the end, I think I'll have to learn everything on the job... this is what everyone says happens... that University is just good for a piece of paper. I don't think it should be this way.
I watched the video posted, but it's outdated (from before the writing section on the SAT 1996) and sensationalist. Therefore it's a bit hard to take seriously. From personal experience, I have seen too many students drop out and fail in my public schooling (states middle to high school), too many students have been left behind. Therefore I do acknowledge that there is some truth to the video.
One could say that the students' failing is due to the conditions of their home environments, and that improvements in schools wouldn't help. I think my high school did something really well, students that performed extremely poorly had to take vocational classes and "disciplinary classes." As a math tutor, I came into some of these classes as part of a school experiment, to see if I could help these students directly in their classes.
I wanted to take that class with them! They were learning useful skills.
I don't want to make my wall of text any bigger so this will have to do as a response for now.
It's probably mostly discipline. My classmates complain about their low marks, or bad teachers, and then don't study at all. They go out and play games, get food, whatever, instead of studying, then do really badly and expect the teacher to hand them marks. One group was complaining about their terrible marks in math during math class, and the teacher called them out for it; something along the lines of, if you're getting bad marks in math, why are you talking in math class? They would rather socialize than study. Or they will study at the last moment knowing that cramming doesn't work for them. Cramming does work for some, not for these kids. I also know of people who are on Facebook the night before assignments are due, and complaining about the assignment instead of doing it. It sickens me, but it's their character, not the school. I don't feel the school needs to provide any sort of motivation.
On January 03 2011 08:08 Blisse wrote: What university are you at OP? I'm scared.
It's probably mostly discipline. My classmates complain about their low marks, or bad teachers, and then don't study at all. They go out and play games, get food, whatever, instead of studying, then do really badly and expect the teacher to hand them marks. One group was complaining about their terrible marks in math during math class, and the teacher called them out for it; something along the lines of, if you're getting bad marks in math, why are you talking in math class? They would rather socialize than study. Or they will study at the last moment knowing that cramming doesn't work for them. Cramming does work for some, not for these kids. I also know of people who are on Facebook the night before assignments are due, and complaining about the assignment instead of doing it. It sickens me, but it's their character, not the school. I don't feel the school needs to provide any sort of motivation.
Wall of text. oO
You've got a point. Is the education system itself bad, or are the students just lazy fucks? Probably not the latter in the OP's case, but I have to say there are a lot of people who don't do shit in the way of studying or aren't too smart but also expect to get an A in their courses or else they start complaining. "Course is too hard" or "teacher doesn't teach".
On January 03 2011 08:08 Blisse wrote: What university are you at OP? I'm scared.
I'm at the University of Toronto studying computer engineering. I was trying to hide the identity of the University because I thought it wouldn't be useful.
What makes it sound so scary? I don't think I've described any of the aspects of the curriculum that would make it sound scary...just bad.
There was a quote at the end of that video by some stupid bitch. It went like:
"Competition is not for kids, its not for public education, it just won't work"
What utter bullshit. Kids should ALWAYS be driven to be competitive. Competitiveness and a motivation to be productive be the winner is what turned the human race from monkies into what we are now. Hard work from a drive to succeed is present in every single successful person.
Public shit will never work unless it imposes high standards and the ruthless world of capitalism is the best way to just clean all out all this union bullshit.
Whatever you say about "white well groomed belgian kids" vs "an obvious minority". There is probably like 99% white people in belgium. Also, 75% average vs 45% average or w/e is huge, because its usually really fucking easy to pass and it gets progressively harder to score points in these kinds of these, because they want to reward excellence without punishing mediocrity.
Anyone who's ever played any kind of team game will know that the only way to get people to improve is to make them realize how bad they are to activate that primal desire to win.
Saying its the parents fault or whatever is nonsense. If the parents have to intervene something is probably wrong anyway. The only thing you should have to do at home is homework, and that should be kept to a minimum since frankly with the amount of hours the schools with these kids they should be able to get most of practical work done IN the class when they can ask questions and directly get help. Schools should probably have at least a dedicated hour of study where kids can do homework and ask teachers for help anyway. These parents are working 12 hours a day they shouldn't have to do anything when the kid is home except for getting his homework done. Even then, just school should be enough to effectively educate these kids.
On January 03 2011 11:08 Slayer91 wrote: Saying its the parents fault or whatever is nonsense. If the parents have to intervene something is probably wrong anyway. The only thing you should have to do at home is homework, and that should be kept to a minimum since frankly with the amount of hours the schools with these kids they should be able to get most of practical work done IN the class when they can ask questions and directly get help. Schools should probably have at least a dedicated hour of study where kids can do homework and ask teachers for help anyway. These parents are working 12 hours a day they shouldn't have to do anything when the kid is home except for getting his homework done. Even then, just school should be enough to effectively educate these kids.
So parents shouldn't have to actually parent? I don't get what you're saying.
You know what's a good motivator for a kid to do well? A belt.
Seriously, a parent should constantly be pushing their kids to do more and be better. You make it sound like parents shouldn't be teaching their kids anything and that's what schools are for. Parents are the ultimate teachers. Teachers are supplements, feeding academic information to a child. Parents teach about life, and by saying that "teachers are responsible it's not my problem" they're actually teaching their kids to be lazy, make excuses, and not accept responsibility.
My first semester at grad school has gradually changed the ways I view education. Specifically, I feel that tests should measure how much you learned from the class as opposed to how much you knew beforehand (in other words - test what we learned, not what you think we should know).
I also strongly believe that math should be given a different face. From an early age most people despise anything math-related. I've met a large number of people who shut their brains off the moment their hear anything number-related. Math, like foreign languages and sports, need a LOT of practice. The best advice I ever got in my advanced calculus courses was "do a lot of problems". While this does get increasingly difficult to do when you get into higher-leveled college math, elementary math through advanced algebra (and even basic calculus) has a wealth of practice problems to hone your skills and use class to better understand the concepts. Instead, I feel that American schools treat math as an unliked subject that should be endured (like hard times or torture) instead of mastered (like a fine art or a sport).
On January 03 2011 11:08 Slayer91 wrote: Saying its the parents fault or whatever is nonsense. If the parents have to intervene something is probably wrong anyway. The only thing you should have to do at home is homework, and that should be kept to a minimum since frankly with the amount of hours the schools with these kids they should be able to get most of practical work done IN the class when they can ask questions and directly get help. Schools should probably have at least a dedicated hour of study where kids can do homework and ask teachers for help anyway. These parents are working 12 hours a day they shouldn't have to do anything when the kid is home except for getting his homework done. Even then, just school should be enough to effectively educate these kids.
So parents shouldn't have to actually parent? I don't get what you're saying.
You know what's a good motivator for a kid to do well? A belt.
Seriously, a parent should constantly be pushing their kids to do more and be better. You make it sound like parents shouldn't be teaching their kids anything and that's what schools are for. Parents are the ultimate teachers. Teachers are supplements, feeding academic information to a child. Parents teach about life, and by saying that "teachers are responsible it's not my problem" they're actually teaching their kids to be lazy, make excuses, and not accept responsibility.
I suspect you're probably just a kid yourself.
Suggestion that parents should beat their kids. Unfounded wrong assumption that I am a kid. Nice.
Of course the parent is the ultimate teacher, but right now they only have a handful of hours to spent with their kids and the teachers have a lot more. Also; if its academic, its the schools responsibility, the parents can handle some discipline or whatever, but if kids aren't learning probably at school there is a BIG problem.
Oh, if you think a belt should be a motivator for school then you're part of the fucking problem motiviation for school is obvious for any university student but not for any schoolgoing kid but why?
I think the only thing that really needs to change in germany is that there should be more money so that we might have enough teachers some day. Currently there are too few teachers, which results in decrease of teaching quality and more people with problems in school get ignored and just put in a lower school, no matter how good they could be with some initial support.
German education is quite good imho, at least the education i got was, and it was even just a small school in a town of 2500 people. Though even there it was obvious that it was getting worse, as the teachers that really tried to teach with passion got burned out because they just had too much to do. I heard that my favourite teacher had a nervous breakdown a while after i finished school, which still makes me sad.
Going to college solely for an "education" and believing that it will secure a successful career and path in life is wishful thinking. On the other end of the spectrum, believing that people will allow you a "right of passage" into their organization without a college degree is just as foolish. College degrees have become so common that its pretty worthless these days. However, even though its value is overstated, the degree is validation that you are at least somewhat motivated.
There is nothing wrong with the education system if you live in a rich area. I remember visiting areas like Katy or Sugarland (nicer parts of Houston MSA). Students there are being groomed for college as soon as they arrive as 9th graders. Unfortunately, I came from a poor area named Alief. While teachers were just as good, the attitude of certain students made it hard to take school seriously.
You know who makes it hard to learn? Kids that are not motivated and plan on living pay check to pay check. They will bring down the whole classroom with their behavior. Therefore, the only escape is enrolling in Pre-AP or AP classes. While the poor students with bad attitudes are not 100% to blame for their economic situation, they are 100% to blame for their motivation.
If parents can not teach their children to get educated then its a moot point if we restructure the education system. I do not cry at night because a retard in school never took the time to put in the hardwork. Everyone needs cheap labor at McDonalds. I just made sure it wasnt me..
I'd computerise every fact based subject. Mixing all medias together to teach rather then just textbooks and teachers it would be video, flash games, instant micro theory tests and more visual and vocal interactions with the computer.
But most importantly it would be one system for all across the board. Students would be constantly have there answers checked via computerised entry of there exercises so focused teaching to help students in certain areas with teachers could be focused rather then students having to sit through lessons which could have just been recorded and played back like a YouTube video.
There are some initiatives like this in various countries the last one I heard about on the news was one where they made edutainment games to teach the kids and it was being really effective.
Eventually you'd had a Star Trek Vulcan school system where teachers just monitor the kids who are in booths learning tonnes of stuff.
Once it gets fleshed out and refined we'd have super smart kids all over.
On January 04 2011 03:21 Adeeler wrote: I'd computerise every fact based subject. Mixing all medias together to teach rather then just textbooks and teachers it would be video, flash games, instant micro theory tests and more visual and vocal interactions with the computer.
But most importantly it would be one system for all across the board. Students would be constantly have there answers checked via computerised entry of there exercises so focused teaching to help students in certain areas with teachers could be focused rather then students having to sit through lessons which could have just been recorded and played back like a YouTube video.
There are some initiatives like this in various countries the last one I heard about on the news was one where they made edutainment games to teach the kids and it was being really effective.
Eventually you'd had a Star Trek Vulcan school system where teachers just monitor the kids who are in booths learning tonnes of stuff.
Once it gets fleshed out and refined we'd have super smart kids all over.
EPT
