On December 31 2010 08:45 LuckyFool wrote: ....In broodwar you could leave an scv or ling at the exit of their natural and if they move out, morph sunks, lay mines, make a bunker... with something like a 5 second walk time from natural to natural in sc2 this type of scouting/reactionary based play is gone. Now you just make the bunkers and if they dont move out sell them for full refund. No risk/reward at all whatsoever. In broodwar bunkers were awesome but there were risks, if you make too many, or in a slightly useless location you paid the price. In sc2 there is no price to pay.
I'm highlighting this because this is exactly how I feel...sc2 just doesn't have the same sense of urgency. Brood war you find something coming you glitch out scvs on the ramp, on their zealots, on their lings/hydras, etc as you try to get that bunker up or siege mode. Sc2 has no defensive reaction...no mines scrambled up, bunker takes forever to build if it's reactionary, etc etc. From a spectator's point, there is no more early game pivotal moment like trying to snipe a tank with goons. All you get in sc2 early on is some 2 rax versus zerg or some voidray 3 gate vs a FE terran (or a 4 gate protoss)
There's no excitement is either of those. For a 2rax even if the zerg holds it's not like the terran is screwed over. For the voidray vs FE more often than not the voidray simply wins. There are no worker drills that glitch out the same way, no 33 kill goons microing against bbs marines. Only true worker drill I can recall in sc2 is fruitdealer vs ogsinca. There's just no early game defense that is exciting.
I really think one of the biggest reasons I thought ZvP was so fun in BW was because of how hard controlling my masses of units became starting from the midgame. The whole frantic positioning and attacking and microing against storms was so mind-wracking yet so epic and fun in its own way. I've never felt that same midgame to lategame exhileration while playing SC2, although SC2 does have its own fun aspects. I just really miss that feeling of being overwhelmed in SC2; how my own army would overwhelm my ability to control it as much as it could completely overwhelm my opponent - how I know that both I and my opponent are having extreme difficulties when engaging and that in the end winning or losing can lie entirely upon my opponent's skill in landing those storms and my ability to predict and dodge them.
I feel the same way mostly. I'm hoping it will all change eventually. And that even though there are all these things that make the game easier now, we will find strategies to push ourselves even further and make the games more interesting to watch.
For example, when I'm watching games the feeling I get is similar to watching a broodwar game, but without all the sexy harassment and mind games, and only the macro part (and a messy macro part at that). Like the players just haven't reached that "next" level yet. The next level, where players start learning how to take risks and make them pay off. I just hope that when we get to that level, it isn't as un-satisfying and boring as this one. And that we will be able to win games through means other than abusing weak imbalances.
This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
I think it also comes from the fact they had to tune down a lot of units in SC2 from BW, for example, lings - lings are fucking SCARY in BW, but in SC2, they tuned them down a lot due to autosurround - and in that, there's no thrilling, epic lurker/ling vs MM surrounds where the zerg can JUST hold by brilliant positioning and using lurkers well - highlighting another problem - there's no units that can really help stage a comeback. Lurkers, defilers, arbiters - we've seen AMAZING comebacks with these units, and likewise with, for example, zeal bombing and mine dragging; they set the scene for amazing games to happen.
I'd really love for the bw foreigner proscene to come alive again, we just need someone with the initiative to contact sponsors and casters for tournaments.
On December 31 2010 09:01 CaucasianAsian wrote: I can't tell you how many times I have jumped out of my chair screaming "FUCK YEAH!" when i beat a good player in BW. And how many times i've been like "that was ez" when i win on SC2.
It's just not the same T_T!
Oh man I can totally relate. Winning a game in bw feels sooo good. Winning an sc2 game is just like 'meh.'
Well written. This is what a lot of people feel, I think, but just can't write down.
On December 31 2010 10:48 simpy wrote: This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
On December 31 2010 10:48 simpy wrote: This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
I think so.
It's a long hard road lol, an enjoyable one though.
I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
On December 31 2010 10:48 simpy wrote: This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
I think this might be the reason I stopped playing 1v1's or ladder in SC2. I never played BW, but at the beginning of beta when I was winning I felt a great sigh of relief, that I played well and am moving up in the world.
Ever since I got to diamond the motivation to play was gone because I don't get some sense of accomplishment after winning 1v1's save for 1 in every 20 games, and averaging 14 minutes a game, I'm not willing to spend almost 5 hours to get ONE satisfying game where I felt like it was worth it.
You DC guys might hate me for it (cept jane and eskimo-alex) but in League of Legends I either got a retarded loss where I just stop caring, or usually the wins either you shit on the opponent, which actually feels good, or its a really sick game, or its a really REALLY sick comeback, but you never think shit that was a gay win. so 50% of the time I'm satisfied and 30% of that I feel fucking amazing.
That said, I'm quitting LoL but thats beside the point, game itself lost its luster too.
Its one reason why I prefer watching streams, especially of SSF4 lately, the hype involved and the play that happens is awesome to watch and gives me a nice rush, and games only last like 3-4 minutes tops, how awesome is that.
The thing I DO like doing is playing team games in SC2, blasphemy in the world of competitive gaming, I know, but playing 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4's with friends is WAY more fun to me than playing random nobodies on ladder for an unsatisfying win. In team games you can fuck around and lose, or fuck around and win, which is awesome.
1v1's have lost its luster to me, obviously I'm just a low diamond speaking, but as someone who loves competitive play but doesn't have the motivation to compete in a dull practice lifestyle, watching streams and other games or dabbling with other games has been what I need.
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
I've found that the people who do this are the people who want to play SC2 just for cash, instead of playing it for the love and passion of the game. It's the reason I resent most of the BW -> SC2 proes: immediately after the SC2 beta came out, most of them switched.
Maybe I just want a game to be actually good before it turns into an esport, instead of "it's an esport so everyone plays it for $". Either way, it hasn't been proven for lasting effect yet, and it'll turn out like WC3 - had huge potential and huge tournaments when it first came out, and then died out.
On December 31 2010 10:48 simpy wrote: This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
Ah wonderful, I didn't see the part about the DL client before! It will have to wait until after new years unfortunately though
Also I'm just curious will playing a lot of BW also improve my sc2 plays?
Yes, just as playing a lot of SC2 will improve your BW, and every other RTS you ever play. The games are very similar, and many factors such as decision making, army management, ect. are analogous across both games (any RTS for that matter). Of course, BW is a lot more difficult to get the hang of, because there is no MBS, automine, smart casting, ect. but it's definitely manageable.
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
This post describes a pretty fascinating conundrum.
The two things that killed sc2 imo is that blizz is controlling it very tightly like the way it did with wc3 tft. especially the map pool. over 4 years of tft that i have watched (2004-2008) the map pool never changed, which was really annoying because there was very little originality.
Also, the attack projectiles of units are way too fast in this game. Back in broodwar, the attack projectiles of goons were super slow and it was awesome watchign whether a salvo of attacks will kill a reaver/tank/etc.
On December 31 2010 09:01 CaucasianAsian wrote: I can't tell you how many times I have jumped out of my chair screaming "FUCK YEAH!" when i beat a good player in BW. And how many times i've been like "that was ez" when i win on SC2.
It's just not the same T_T!
Oh man I can totally relate. Winning a game in bw feels sooo good. Winning an sc2 game is just like 'meh.'
Well written. This is what a lot of people feel, I think, but just can't write down.
I remember winning a 40 minute TvT and pumping my fists. I this is the only game (and sport because I also play tennis) where I actually pump fists and mean it.
Then I remember playing games in SC2 and it felt really robotic.
Yeah, I agree with Zlasher. I used to play LoL and I remember quite a few memorable comebacks. Probably the most exciting was being down two team members and coming back in an hour or longer game against shit talking randoms. And we did it by such a slim margin that if we had downed their nexus one or two seconds later we would have gotten owned and counter pushed. In Starcraft 2 I've had comebacks. But I've never had a comeback where I feel I pulled something amazing off to warrant it. All the comebacks I have had are the opponent getting overconfident and doing something really stupid or not being able to keep up late game macro wise.
EPT
If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
