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Hey there guys , firstly I prey this is in the right place, took an abnormal amount of time to work out how to do it :o. Secondly a bit about the blog as a whole and this in particular. In general id like to talk about my progression in sc2 and certain topics that interest me about the community as a whole, a place to vent. This blog post in particular is about something ive been considering recently, which I had some real reservations about in the past, the idea of paying for Sc2 Coaching. First a little history:
For the last couple of weeks I've been consistently watching a stream, Miniguns, where at the bottom he is offering lessons. Id been aware of the phenomenon for some times, id followed the 1st iteration of Gosucoachings site quite closely until its demise, then reform. I had come away with the belief that the scene was a bit too green for me to invest in any coaching for myself, the gosucoaching thing in particular made me really warey about trusting my money to other people when they are handling such huge demand, and since they were the only “out there” coaches I put whatever thoughts I had of being coached under the bed for a spell, until recently. Gosucoaching kind of opened up the floodgates and I began seeing streamers pause after every game and give the “lesson plug” which was fine in itself, but it felt for the longest time as if I was being sold something I didnt need and they werent qualified to teach. I wasnt angry they were doing it but I genuinely didnt understand why others would pay them for it. Then I remember a streamer, who I wont name, who started streaming his lessons and they consisted of the same spiel 5-6 times a day which involved teaching a cheesey build that will “get you to low diamond, because you need good micro to stop it” and that was that. I am sad to admit it but I came away from that pidgeon holing the entire coaching scene, wrongly, as a place where people learn tricks but nothing about the game.
My opinions were soon to change when I saw another streamer, who for fairness sake I wont name either, teaching on his stream and doing an excellent job, as stream watchers we all learned some things, eye opening things which make you approach certain aspects of the game differently. I realised then that I was being a bit of an elitist douche before and decided to give the scene another look and came into contact with some people who had had coaching from the gosu guys (all of who seem like top fellas despite my comments on their earlier site mishaps) and came away satisfied. These people were like me, working days with a few hours to tuck into sc2 at night, but fragmented time, often a few days or a week off when things got hectic, who needed help understanding the game. I remember I used the sc2 practice thread for some similar help but came away a little empty handed because the thread was a 2-way street, you dont add people to just benefit yourself you add to benefit each other, which was a bargain I couldnt make.
So having come to those conclusions I decided recently that I too will get some coaching and shot off one email to Minigun, who is the only protoss I have experience viewing who I know offers lessons, and hope to hear back from him soon. If we can get something working id love to post my impressions of the experience in depth and whether it, as a concept, is something I can recommend further.
But as an open ended question because this was a bit of a rant, has anyone reading this had coaching? Did it best your expectations? Also if you know any good protosses who offer dont hesitate to name them :D
 
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You should watch the recorded lessons from incontrol and machine on Mr.Bitters ustream channel if you want to get a better idea of what the actual lessons might be like. My thoughts on them were pretty similar to you. I thought it was a pretty stupid idea at first, but watching an actual lessons changed my mind a bit.
http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter
check the archived videos at the bottom.
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It looks like you just ran into someone who couldn't coach and then someone who could o.o
I've had several teachers/mentors and most of them didn't really help me understand much of the game at all. I ended up not knowing what the hell I was doing in BW in most of the games I played, but I lucked some wins with inefficient build orders.
tee.tee!
edit: ^ those people were from BW, and I didn't pay anything for the help, so I'm appreciative of it anyway. Just sayin' though.;
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Thats awesome ill definately take a look
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On November 23 2010 08:06 KawaiiRice wrote:
It looks like you just ran into someone who couldn't coach and then someone who could o.o
I've had several teachers/mentors and most of them didn't really help me understand much of the game at all. I ended up not knowing what the hell I was doing in BW in most of the games I played, but I lucked some wins with inefficient build orders.
tee.tee!
edit: ^ those people were from BW, and I didn't pay anything for the help, so I'm appreciative of it anyway. Just sayin' though.;
My mistake was assuming that because of how new the game is that the "cheese" lesson method was the only viable method, and to his credit if thats what the student wants then im not to judge it, we all like a quick fix solution. For me i find the reason I would value coaching personally is because I have hit a wall or ceiling as it were and im not sure how to get out. Currently I sit high plat, win ration of 60%, however every win I have is attributed to me playing very safe and my opponent playing very badly, which happens relatively often, now of course this is a strategy unto itself but as soon as i come up against a competent player thats game right there. Things like harass timing, good ways to make the opponent go on the back foot and scouting are things i cant quite learn from replays and even when watching streams its hard to decipher, so having a voice in my ear share some wisdom i think would be worth the investment.
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I hope you aren't bashing Trump's 3Rax MM lessons.
Those were bronze-level players after all, and it's a reasonable first step to just learn how to do one build well. Though it's not a viable build at high levels, it's not really cheese.
If you didn't mean him, then disregard the above.
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On November 23 2010 08:16 Ryalnos wrote:
I hope you aren't bashing Trump's 3Rax MM lessons.
Those were bronze-level players after all, and it's a reasonable first step to just learn how to do one build well. Though it's not a viable build at high levels, it's not really cheese.
If you didn't mean him, then disregard the above.
Didnt mean him 
Id rather not go into names
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On November 23 2010 08:17 Oslo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 08:16 Ryalnos wrote:
I hope you aren't bashing Trump's 3Rax MM lessons.
Those were bronze-level players after all, and it's a reasonable first step to just learn how to do one build well. Though it's not a viable build at high levels, it's not really cheese.
If you didn't mean him, then disregard the above. Didnt mean him Id rather not go into names
All right, good. It's probably best for names not to be named, but I just wanted to guard against this possibility.
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I had coaching sessions in the beta with Machine and they were really really good. There are tonnes of high diamond players even 2200+ who have no clue when they talk strategy but can grind points with narrow builds really well so you could learn that from them. But i'd prefer going to Machine as i'm zerg.
The only suggestion i'd give you is to be coached by someone legit i.e. they tourny(i recommend Machine if you are zerg) as they don't have the problem of broken theory crafting.
As a whole though i'd say think about your own play and when you have nothing left that's a blazing mistake to get a practice partner then after that a coach.
Ofc anyone can coach as long as they are knowledgeable in comparison to the student and know how to teach well.
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A good player with a lot of points doesn't mean that they are a good teacher.
Teaching cheese technically isn't "wrong," but the key component players nowadays want is a "real understanding" of the game. The cheese strategies work, but players want a fundamental understanding of the game that can be applied in multiple situations which is condoned as the right way to play.
To me, its really respectable that a player is both extremely skilled and also extremely good at sharing their knowledge of the game. The dialog that surrounds StarCraft strategy doesn't use terminology cemented by an academic institution so you have to selectively choose what you believe is to be right or wrong when you receive advice. That being said, a good coach will have a very robust theory of a certain aspect about the game that can be universally accepted and shared among players, and will be correlated with improvement in play.
I don't know my point - I guess that its cool that actual pro players can communicate the abstracts of the game and that it holds enough validity to help multiple people improve.
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Yeah i can see the wisdom in that, the problem so far with the coaching scene is that its kind of "off the cuff" with little structure, save for the gosucoaching guys. The only qualms I have with them are 3 fold;
Firstly the only person I have any experiernce seeing play is Incontrol, who seems good and from the clip above seems a really good teacher, but the pricing, so ive heard, is in excess of $30 which is half of what I paid for the game, for something that may or may not help.
Secondly is scheduling, we are in different timezones and my schedule precludes much flexibility, i have certain times i can actually play with a fulltime job. This also takes into account how popular he is as a coach.
Thirdly I cant quite shake the problems gosucoaching 1.0 had with scheduling and payment, so id rather let the new system sit in place for a while and see if any complaints come out about the administration.
On a side note Mini hasnt got back to me yet
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Comparing coaching to the game cost is completely arbitrary. If you enjoy the game and you spend 2+ hours a day on it what is 50$?
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On November 23 2010 08:16 Ryalnos wrote:
I hope you aren't bashing Trump's 3Rax MM lessons.
Those were bronze-level players after all, and it's a reasonable first step to just learn how to do one build well. Though it's not a viable build at high levels, it's not really cheese.
If you didn't mean him, then disregard the above.
Thats what I was thinking, that lesson was kinda sad to watch, just pure 3 racks every game, absolutely sad.
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Good coaches will help you a LOT. I had a coaching session with iNcontrol for my BW PvZ, and I literally went from high D to low C- level in that MU. It wasnt exactly the things he taught, but the way he taught them to me that made the biggest difference I think. He was very patient and we ran through the same scenario lots of times till I could perfect what I needed to do. If you have any doubts about gosucoaching's financial side, well theres a valid reason for that, but I recommend you definitely not underestimate how ridiculously good their coaches are at improving your gameplay
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I've never like the idea of paying for a coach.
For me, if your somewhat of a good RTS player, you will know what you have to improve and by watching you replays you will identify your mistakes yourself.
Looking for good build ? Go download replays from top players and copy the build.
Tired of endless random ladder games ? Go improve on a specific map and matchup by finding a opponent of your skill level in #tlpickup.
I'm not saying coaching is bad, I'm sure that gosucoaching and such are really professionals. We know they are top players and help alot of ppl but there are thing that can't be bought, for everything thing else there is Mastercard.
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On November 24 2010 00:18 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Comparing coaching to the game cost is completely arbitrary. If you enjoy the game and you spend 2+ hours a day on it what is 50$?
Under the right circumstances i can totally see a justification for it, but i dont think for alot of people that fits, thats not to say your coaching isnt worth it (i sent you a request on gc btw ) just that I still have some scepticism that value can be gotten for the services at a price close to the game. But thats the point of this thread really, to discuss my experiences and perceptions which are open to change.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
well tbh if you are valuing coaching to the cost of the physical game not only is there no correlation that is the wrong comparison. You SHOULD be comparing time spent with said game and then compare that to coaching.
If this is a casual game you play for maybe 1 or 2 hours every other day spending 50$ or more on coaching would seem silly.
That said if you spending 3+ hours like most of us do on TL (more are close to 4~5 hours I would presume) then suddenly 50$ is insanely good pricing. The only way it wouldn't is if your TIME is worth so little.
You can spend 3 months with this game and NOT learn what could be made clear in a single 2 hour lesson. You aren't paying for super secret information that you cannot get for yourself you are paying for someone to bring that information to you and get you to learn said information. Conversely you could spend 3 hours with this game and learn the same thing... it's different for each person.
Part of the reason I posted in this blog is because there are a LOT of misconceptions with coaching. People achieve 2300 on the ladder and think that means they can coach. Well, they CAN but should they? Perhaps not. Coaching is equal parts communication, information and delivery. If you are unfamiliar with any of these aspects or lack ability you should not be charging money to coach... or at least you shouldn't get paid for it. The X factor is how good the coach is. Obviously people want to get coached by the top pros but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. It can be a "good" player who just happens to be an amazing coach. Additionally the value discussion we just had is another huge problem people have. Comparing coaching to the cost of the game or other arbitrary comparisons is hugely problematic. Golf coaches charge 50$ A round of golf can cost 15$ or 30$ or obviously more... but my point is they are not connected.
This might be a bit disconjointed.. I am sick and jet legged so forgive me 
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On November 24 2010 01:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote:well tbh if you are valuing coaching to the cost of the physical game not only is there no correlation that is the wrong comparison. You SHOULD be comparing time spent with said game and then compare that to coaching. If this is a casual game you play for maybe 1 or 2 hours every other day spending 50$ or more on coaching would seem silly. That said if you spending 3+ hours like most of us do on TL (more are close to 4~5 hours I would presume) then suddenly 50$ is insanely good pricing. The only way it wouldn't is if your TIME is worth so little. You can spend 3 months with this game and NOT learn what could be made clear in a single 2 hour lesson. You aren't paying for super secret information that you cannot get for yourself you are paying for someone to bring that information to you and get you to learn said information. Conversely you could spend 3 hours with this game and learn the same thing... it's different for each person. Part of the reason I posted in this blog is because there are a LOT of misconceptions with coaching. People achieve 2300 on the ladder and think that means they can coach. Well, they CAN but should they? Perhaps not. Coaching is equal parts communication, information and delivery. If you are unfamiliar with any of these aspects or lack ability you should not be charging money to coach... or at least you shouldn't get paid for it. The X factor is how good the coach is. Obviously people want to get coached by the top pros but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. It can be a "good" player who just happens to be an amazing coach. Additionally the value discussion we just had is another huge problem people have. Comparing coaching to the cost of the game or other arbitrary comparisons is hugely problematic. Golf coaches charge 50$ A round of golf can cost 15$ or 30$ or obviously more... but my point is they are not connected. This might be a bit disconjointed.. I am sick and jet legged so forgive me
Its not disjointed :D and i think we are making similar points, though coming to it from a different angle. To clarify my point;
Originally i was under the assumption that coaching was something that I personally could not get into, for the dual reason of the game being too new to have it be of any value and secondly because the level of coaching i had been exposed to (albeit indirectly) showed a method where "heres how to get x points, have a good day" was the mentality.
Perhaps ive been rather inarticulate with my current responses and if so thats my bad but the point ive been trying to make is that I can now see some value in the coaching, but not specifically for myself at the higher end of the price range. As you so yourself indicated there are many reasons to want coaching and many ways to go about it, my own situation is a situation where, given responsibilities and work, i would use coaching to get over a hump that i cannot get over with the little time that I have. This means that the value of the coaching has to be proportional to the time I have, so paying $50 for 2 hours seems disproportionate given my circumstances. Having reflected using the example of x price of game must equal y price of coaching was a bad one to use, it was more to illustrate my point that what i determine as x (my value of the game and time with it) was not proportional to y (which was the coaches value on their time). So for that misunderstanding im compelled to apologise
To your point about "the right to coach" i couldnt agree more than coaching is a skill apart from league position, which is why i have made it very clear to the 2 people (other than yourself) i have sent messages to that it is an invitation to treat over an offer, i asked them solidly what their plan of approach was, is there any follow up and could they meet the objectives i asked them to. Pending their responses ill go a bit further. Having said that the prices they offer, which are low in comparison to the high end, represent a value i put on the coaching to achieve the goals i have in mind and the value i place on my future experience with the game.
And for my own benefit i am much enjoying the discussion :D
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
we are on the same page then
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Inc actually made some very good points here. Its very true that you can play for a longest time I don't know things that can be taught to you in a couple of hours. Some simple inputs from a coach can actually escalated your level in a very short time.
Just like coaching in any other sports, being a good player doesnt equal a good coach. We've seen a lot of super star players(soccer, basket ball...etc) failed when they tried to take on coaching.
But as a SC2 player, in order to get good, what you need is pratice. Just like when a prof give your a lecture, no matter how good he is, if you dont study after your class is over, you normally can't get a higher score when the exam comes.
I personally will not go for any lesson since I play SC2 like 4-5 hours a week and as a BW player, I've known enough and just enjoying myself on the ladder.
I would recommend taking lesson for someone from below gold level so they can learn some fundamental about SC2 and also to diamonds players that really want to take on the top 10 in their region but cant do it. Other than that if you play for fun and you're having fun, no coaching is needed
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EPT
