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EDIT: Slayer91 argued compellingly and convincingly against this idea, so if you're thinking about paying attention to me, don't. Read on at your own risk.
Right now, I'm playing with No Common Sense. And I want you, dear reader, to join the cause.
What exactly am I blathering about? An excellent question, which I will answer with another question:
How does it benefit anyone for me to accept and act upon the received wisdom of high level players?
That's not a rhetorical question. Obviously, it's going to benefit me, at least in the narrow terms of my ladder progress. But in the grand scheme of things, I'm not adding anything to the game. The effect of any slight tweaks I try making to build orders is going to be lost in the gaping chasm between the quality of my execution and that of the players I'm trying to emulate. They are far better placed to realise evolutionary improvements than I.
What I can do is check to see whether certain units or strategies really don't work. Right now, for me, that means Hydra in ZvT. My goal in life is to find a way to make those little fuckers viable. Not necessarily en masse to win the game, you understand - I just want to see if there's a role for them. I'm experimenting with hydra/infestor drops: hydra to deal the damage, infestor to delay the enemy's response with fungal growth and cover my retreat with Infested Terrans. Maybe it'll work; maybe it won't. Maybe it'll put me in Silver league and start to work there - it's all good info, and more valuable, I feel, than 4-gating into Diamond.
If this sounds like fun to you, why not join in? Pick something everyone knows doesn't work (or thinks won't work anymore after a patch) and try to make it work - then post your experiences here. That's what I'll be doing!
Thanks for reading.
 
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If you're going to drop zerglings are cheaper and do more damage than hydras.
Hydras are 99% of the time good as a support unit, like siege tanks. You hide behind a wall of roaches/queens and it increases your army efficiency by (insert some basic math here) compared to just making more roaches.
Hydra infestor works against bio because hydra outrange marines and deal with marauders well.
Also, don't base a strategy around tactics
If you can't make hydras work in your army, they sure as hell are not worth getting just to drop. Figure out a way to use them effectively, and then start thinking about how to use them better (tactics)
Example: I can make excellent use of baneling drops in ZvT. That doesn't mean I get drop tech and banelings just to drop in his mineral line (which can be worth it if he doesn't react well), but its not too smart. If i'm in a situation where I need both drop and banelings (to harass for example, or baneling bomb in your army) I can integrate the baneling drop tactic into my overall strategy which is expand+delay(baneling drops//roach ling drops)-->kill his army(baneling bomb+a-move or even mass drop if he's going mech with a low thor count)
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Yes, if you're playing for fun then you should expect your win ratio to decrease, and this may result in less fun overall :/
This has been my experience from BW and why I switched races.
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On October 25 2010 09:02 Slayer91 wrote:
If you're going to drop zerglings are cheaper and do more damage than hydras.
Not by overlord carrying capacity they don't. And they take longer to drop/reach their target. And they can't shoot up (lifted buildings). And they can't engage a FG'd defensive army from range.
Does that make Hydras viable? I don't know. The point of this blog was to avoid trading theories and actually try stuff out.
Also, don't base a strategy around tactics
If you can't make hydras work in your army, they sure as hell are not worth getting just to drop. Figure out a way to use them effectively, and then start thinking about how to use them better (tactics)
As a general principle I totally agree: tactics need to serve strategy. I've watched my Day[9]  However...
1. Isn't Zerg's ability to tech-switch supposed to be one of their principle strengths? A hydra den isn't all that expensive and it builds quickly. If any race can legitimately build units for a specific purpose, it's Zerg.
2. The more utility a unit is found to have, the more viable strategies that call for that unit become. Maybe you have a strategy that uses Hydras for mid-game base defence - viable hydra/infestor drops might be a way to recycle those units in the later game.
Example: I can make excellent use of baneling drops in ZvT. That doesn't mean I get drop tech and banelings just to drop in his mineral line (which can be worth it if he doesn't react well), but its not too smart. If i'm in a situation where I need both drop and banelings (to harass for example, or baneling bomb in your army) I can integrate the baneling drop tactic into my overall strategy which is expand+delay(baneling drops//roach ling drops)-->kill his army(baneling bomb+a-move or even mass drop if he's going mech with a low thor count)
Absolutely. But at the same time, you're not thinking about potential synergy between hydra/infestor builds and drop play because you don't think H/I drops are worth it. Maybe H/I drops aren't as good as baneling or zergling drops - but if what you have is Hydra and Infestor, they might be good enough. By trying out H/I drops I'll get to see if they add value to H/I play in general.
Also, I might well be completely wrong. I probably am. And that's fine - but I want to make sure. There's a chance - however slim - I'll add something to the game that way.
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On October 25 2010 11:06 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Yes, if you're playing for fun then you should expect your win ratio to decrease
I fully expect this to happen. But then, what does my win-rate really matter? I'm not a great player; nobody's ever going to watch a stream of me playing; I'm never going to qualify for a tournament let alone win one. Yes, I'm going to work on my fundamentals, yes I'm going to try to be a better player. But that's only ever going to benefit me. I'd like to do more.
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On October 25 2010 19:02 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 09:02 Slayer91 wrote:
If you're going to drop zerglings are cheaper and do more damage than hydras.
Not by overlord carrying capacity they don't. And they take longer to drop/reach their target. And they can't shoot up (lifted buildings). And they can't engage a FG'd defensive army from range. Does that make Hydras viable? I don't know. The point of this blog was to avoid trading theories and actually try stuff out. Show nested quote +Also, don't base a strategy around tactics
If you can't make hydras work in your army, they sure as hell are not worth getting just to drop. Figure out a way to use them effectively, and then start thinking about how to use them better (tactics) As a general principle I totally agree: tactics need to serve strategy. I've watched my Day[9] However... 1. Isn't Zerg's ability to tech-switch supposed to be one of their principle strengths? A hydra den isn't all that expensive and it builds quickly. If any race can legitimately build units for a specific purpose, it's Zerg. 2. The more utility a unit is found to have, the more viable strategies that call for that unit become. Maybe you have a strategy that uses Hydras for mid-game base defence - viable hydra/infestor drops might be a way to recycle those units in the later game. Show nested quote +Example: I can make excellent use of baneling drops in ZvT. That doesn't mean I get drop tech and banelings just to drop in his mineral line (which can be worth it if he doesn't react well), but its not too smart. If i'm in a situation where I need both drop and banelings (to harass for example, or baneling bomb in your army) I can integrate the baneling drop tactic into my overall strategy which is expand+delay(baneling drops//roach ling drops)-->kill his army(baneling bomb+a-move or even mass drop if he's going mech with a low thor count) Absolutely. But at the same time, you're not thinking about potential synergy between hydra/infestor builds and drop play because you don't think H/I drops are worth it. Maybe H/I drops aren't as good as baneling or zergling drops - but if what you have is Hydra and Infestor, they might be good enough. By trying out H/I drops I'll get to see if they add value to H/I play in general. Also, I might well be completely wrong. I probably am. And that's fine - but I want to make sure. There's a chance - however slim - I'll add something to the game that way.
Your the one with the theorycraft about hydra/infestor drops. I use hydras and they work in my zvt on the few occasions I find them a good unit. 8 zerglings costs less than 4 hydra and does more DPS. (slightly) They also move way faster so you can run into mineral lines etc. Who cares anyway if you use 16 zerglings and another overlord? Lifted buildings? You think you're going to make him lift buildings with 4 hydras? Attacking the FG army with 4 hydra? That only works against marines and hellions, everything else outranges or has equal range to hydra you don't want them to die do you?
As I said, you're trying to make hydras work for the sake of making hydras work, and you're basing it around a tactic. 16 zerglings drops are less expensive and less risky, and far more effective to boot. Make hydras work in real games, then figure out minor tactics about them.
Infact I already told you what their role is: Support damage behind higher health units. They can't be used for mobile harass because zerglings and mutalisks are simply better. Seriously, taking the slowest unit in the game and one of the more expensive ones to try to harass someone just doesn't make sense. It's one thing to try things out, but what you're doing is saying: "Hey, queens aren't often used in ZvP, I'm going to make them work. Plan: Have them sneak around his army and harass his probes!"
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On October 25 2010 22:16 Slayer91 wrote:
Your the one with the theorycraft about hydra/infestor drops.
I'm really not. I'm just telling you what I'm trying.
8 zerglings costs less than 4 hydra and does more DPS. (slightly) They also move way faster so you can run into mineral lines etc. Who cares anyway if you use 16 zerglings and another overlord? Lifted buildings? You think you're going to make him lift buildings with 4 hydras?
Well, you've picked the number four, not me. Maybe four isn't enough. Maybe eight is too expensive - I don't know yet.
Attacking the FG army with 4 hydra? That only works against marines and hellions, everything else outranges or has equal range to hydra you don't want them to die do you?
So you attack if it's marines/hellions, you don't otherwise. Maybe those are the parameters within which the drop is most effective. Doesn't something similar apply to any play?
As I said, you're trying to make hydras work for the sake of making hydras work, and you're basing it around a tactic.
Yes, I am trying to make hydras work for the sake of it, but no, I'm not 'basing' anything around a tactic. I'm exploring possibilities. If they pan out, it's another tool in the box, something to reach for when putting together a flexible strategy.
Unless you accept that, we're going to carry on arguing past one another. You've decided I'm trying to strategise around hydralisk/infestor drops - can I persuade you to un-make that decision, and allow that I'm simply trying things out? I'm just trying to see if, when and how they might be viable.
16 zerglings drops are less expensive and less risky, and far more effective to boot. Make hydras work in real games, then figure out minor tactics about them.
Infact I already told you what their role is: Support damage behind higher health units. They can't be used for mobile harass because zerglings and mutalisks are simply better. Seriously, taking the slowest unit in the game and one of the more expensive ones to try to harass someone just doesn't make sense.
What difference does their speed make when an overlord is doing the carrying and there's an infestor to delay defensive forces?
It's one thing to try things out, but what you're doing is saying: "Hey, queens aren't often used in ZvP, I'm going to make them work. Plan: Have them sneak around his army and harass his probes!"
Hey, corsairs can't shoot down; let's rush to make a bunch of them in PvZ 
Seriously, though, don't you get just a little twinge, laying down the law about the role of Hydralisks in SC2 like that? I mean, sure, I'm nobody and I'm probably wrong, but if enough nobodies tried things people didn't think would work, it's inevitable some of it would unexpectedly pay off. The whole idea here is to crowd-source situational play options that intuition, theorycraft and incremental build adjustments wouldn't catch. Are you that certain there's nothing to gain from such an effort?
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On reflection, Slayer, I decided you were right after all. Not necessarily about the viability of hydra/infestor drops specifically, but about the approach I'm taking here. A tool is worthless if it's impossible to get in a position to use it without dying. I'm editing the OP to that effect.
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EPT
