On September 25 2010 08:13 One wrote: The problem with sc2 for me is, its just so fucking boring.
I originally came for TL for sc2, but after i started playing sc2 i started getting curious with BW, so i would play it occasionally when the beta was down or after a long streak of games, but eventually i started liking it more and more, and then i started playing less sc2 and more BW, and then eventually i pretty much just stopped playing sc2 all together, BW was just so much more fun and challenging, sc2 felt like simplified mind games more then an RTS, i might check in on sc2 every now and then just see how things are developing, but i just cant play sc2 over BW anymore.
The OP really is a joke to me and i think the point of this thread has no sense, besides the name of it. But i would like to highlight your post to show the bw community that it is possible and people like you exist and could help the foreign bw community to maintain and maybe raise again. The best option to me is that SC2 and BW should co-exist as different games. Both should have tournaments and prize money involved, but unfortunately the current situation is that SC2 stole everything from BW, which is really pitty!
and by the way: BW has way better and user friendly graphics than SC2, at least i like it more
SC1 was revolutionary for the time, but now it's outdated, and 90% of the things you're bitching about (reduced micro potential, et al) are actually improvements rather than problems. Yeah, sure, Starcraft 1 was so terrible that you had to not only overcome your opponent, but the game itself to actually win. With Starcraft 2, you don't have to fight the game mechanics as much so you're free to focus on your opponent.
Geez, is BW's interface really *that* bad? Sure, I'll occasionally rage when my Dragoons or Goliaths get stuck on a ramp or I run out of hotkeys for my army because of the 12 unit selection cap or I accidentally have all my HT storm in the same spot wasting all their energy because there's no smartcasting... but for the most part, I never felt like I was "fighting" the game itself. I tell units to go there, and for the most part they'll do it. I want them to retreat, they'll do it. I want my probes to go mine, they do it.
Guess what? That bugginess added to the depth of the game, that's why it's so loved. I really don't even think it's about mechanical skill, that's boring in and of itself. What's awesome is seeing that skill fester into new strategies being viable that takes the game further. If SC2 has any mechanics that increased skill can improve, then it would be great to find them.
And there's nothing wrong with comparing the depth of SC2 with it's predecessor, SC1. In fact, we should be comparing SC2 to SC1, because it is the game to compare to, and SC2 isn't trying to be new, it's trying to expand what grew out of BW. That doesn't mean the two have to play the same, by any means. We don't necessarily need Muta stacking, hold Lurkers, worker drilling, or ghosting cloned in SC2 to make this game good. But we need something out there to give SC2 something to work for. If Blizzard doesn't even try to make it as deep, then what's the point?
And in the end not everyone is going to like it. You get over it.
It's funny that you say we shouldn't compare the two games, but when I hear Day9 make comparisons to Broodwar to explain SC2 strategy it makes the most sense to me. Because the game is so established and he knows what he's talking about, whenever he explains something that happens in BW and relates it to SC2, it makes absolutely perfect sense to me. I don't know how you can possibly say that's a bad thing.
I see Chill, LunarDestiny, DoctorHelvetica and matjlav beat me to the punch. Well, whatever.
On September 25 2010 04:46 deth2munkies wrote: Preface: Yeah, check the join date, I joined during the SC2 beta where I heard TL was to Starcraft 2, EJ was to WoW. Before I joined, I had a tangential relationship at best with the BW scene: I beat my friends at it with DT rushes and occasionally watched a Korean do unreasonably awesome things with it whenever it was linked to me by a 3rd party. So yeah, I'm from the SC2 generation: deal with it.
Bringing this up and making a big deal of it weakens the validity of your opinions more than the fact that you're new, because it so obviously gives no credit to the people with whom you are trying to communicate.
I don't dismiss people out of hand for lack of long term experience.
OK, I get it, this has been a BW site for a long ass time before SC2 was even on the drawing board, but that doesn't mean we have to compare them in every other post. While it's died down some, you still can't get a thread going long enough in the SC2 forums before someone mentions how it was so much better in BW or how lurkers should be in SC2 or how micro was more important in BW, etc. Here's the kicker: None of that shit matters at all. Starcraft 2 is not attempting to compete with Starcraft 1, it is attempting to compete with Dawn of War, Total War, and other RTS series out today.
Blatantly incorrect.
StarCraft 2 is directly competing with StarCraft 1. It has been ever since its announcement. It's trying to replace it, it's trying to supplant the old in the hearts and minds of fans, it's trying to squeeze out current competing SC1 eSports venues to enrich its own.
As LunarDestiny so poignantly put it: SC/BW is considered to be the best RTS with regards to balancing and skill cap. That's why it's still a competitive sport. SC2 would have no business in the eSports industry if it wasn't trying to compete with it.
Let's take a non-nostalgia tinted comparison of SC1 vs SC2. SC1 is a buggy game with shit graphics, terrible UI, terrible AI and unit pathing, and sub par sound and voice acting. Did that hurt? It's true.
Did I say I don't dismiss people out of hand for lack of long term experience? I don't -- so long as they don't talk shit about things they know nothing about, and as long as they are respectful in their disagreements.
You, on the other hand, have apparently no idea why SC/BW was so great for gamers and spectators, and you're belittling it and its fans. You are in fact piddling all over the sole reason SC2 exists in its current form, and over the people who - through ten years of love and labour - made it turn out this way, on the very site that has been the central pillar of this endeavour.
This helps your case... how?
SC1 was revolutionary for the time, but now it's outdated, and 90% of the things you're bitching about (reduced micro potential, et al) are actually improvements rather than problems.
Lack of micro potential, a lower skill cap and simplified game mechanics are actually improvements?
Every opinion you ever utter ever again will be forever tainted by this statement.
If you genuinely believe that a lack of micro control and spectator excitement makes a game better, then you go against the opinions of everyone who has ever loved RTS gaming as a spectator sport. If people can't get excited about what they see, it's not going to succeed.
Yeah, sure, Starcraft 1 was so terrible that you had to not only overcome your opponent, but the game itself to actually win. With Starcraft 2, you don't have to fight the game mechanics as much so you're free to focus on your opponent.
Jesus Christ.
People wanting old units/voices/music/micro/etc are too blinded by nostalgia to enjoy the greatest RTS to come out in the last 5 years at least, and it's time SC2 was judged on its own merits or at least against its peers, rather than against a game whose only leg up on SC2 is the same name and nostalgia. So get over it and move on if you want to post about SC2 or in the SC2 forums. Otherwise stick to BW and keep your shit out of my areas.
/endrant
The central point - that people should stop bogging down threads by going on about how SC/BW was so much better - I absolutely agree with, for the same reason I told these brain surgeons something similar. And while it still has a goodly way to go to live up to its predecessor, I also don't think SC2 is that bad.
You are a new boy in a house built by old men, telling old men to keep their shit out of your house.
Too bad your point was buried in filth until it lost all meaning.
You see. it's clearly Blizzard's intention to replace the current BW esport scene with SC2. Fail to notice the GSL? The grudge between Blizzard and KesPA? And how we may not be seeing either Jaedong or Flash getting their Golden badge because MBCGame refused to broadcast GSL? It's not even a competition like you said, it's a fucking elimination. BW to die, SC2 to rise, that is what's going on.
It's so obvious why people are comparing between the two games. Who would want a shitty game to replace the all time greatest RTS? If anything, criticism is good for SC2 because that's how it rises to the top (if it ever will).
Lol op before u post something like that please go look up the history of bw. Obviuosly people are going to compare sc2 with bw, it's the long awaited sequel of bw. Bw's the probably The greatest rts if not game of all time and it only makes sense to comparenit to sc2 for sc2 to improve. Im sure many of the tl veterans are going to continue to compare the two games so live with it
I actually thought this might be some form of evolved tdot, but judging by lack of OP response I fear it is not the case- which means he is actually sincere in his statement he is making.
It's called Starcraft"2" for a reason. It's 2nd best. ..
How could you not compare the two? That was the point right? Make a better game? But, this is the best Blizzard could do after having 12 years to play with? I personally feel a tad robbed and cheated (tho thankfully didn't spend any of my hard earned money!).
And the whole bull about 3d graphics is a scam in my eyes. 3D is great for FPShooters, but I see SC2 unit graphics as inferior to their simple but elegant sprite cousins. Ya the landscape and backdrops in SC2 look great, but the units themselves look like Warcraft commercials I see on TV hosted by Mr. T himself. "What's your game?"
Anywho, I'm a bit of a BWar fanatic lol (tho a polite and somewhat reserved one, so I'd like to believe.. my join date/post count speaks for itself) and I'm probably "blinded" by fanaticism and the fact that I bought 2SCBWar disks in 1998 at the ripe age of 32 just so I could play some Lan games with my then 12 year old nephew. Now that's nostalgia. Just wondering what would have happened if TL.net had remained a BWar only community? Starcraft would have for sure accelerated to the cult status it will become. SCBWar will be around longer than SC2 without doubt... at least on my own computer.
On September 25 2010 05:41 Chill wrote: I think a shallow comparison to BW is valid (ie. mechanics, UI, gameplay, etc.). Comparing the depth of strategy and tactics isn't too valid, yet. I think some people have been taking it to one extreme, and you took it pretty far in the other direction. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Yeah pretty much. I agree with your sentiments, OP, but you butchered the execution.
But yeah, far, far too many people keep trying to compare things to BW when it's not even a valid comparison. I can't stand the 'This is how this unit worked in bw' or 'this is how this strat worked in bw' arguments. It's not fucking BW!!!!!!
I agree comparisons between units and strategies are silly. SC2 is a different game. It is NOT broodwar.
However, the reason I am so adamant about comparing broodwar and sc2 in terms of quality is purely because I love broodwar, and if Blizzard insists upon trying to replace broodwar with sc2, then I want sc2 to be just as good. Which is, imo, not at all. Remember, all the nostolgic broodwar players constantly bitching in the sc2 threads are only doing so to HELP sc2.
we want a game to trump broodwar, and to find that game, we must compare everything to broodwar.
On September 25 2010 17:38 infinity2k9 wrote: How can you say SC1 sounds are 'sub-par'? Especially in comparison to SC2. Do you have ears?
The difference between the voice acting in sc1 and sc2 is like the difference between the acting in terminator 1 and terminator 3. Please don't get me started about the game-play itself....
I'm talking about sounds not voice acting. BW has excellent sound design to the point where you can tell exactly what's happening on screen with your eyes closed.
EPT
