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I feel like talking about this in lieu of some GSL events. My opinion on a lot of people's reactions is that there is a widely held, somewhat misguided perception of cheese strategies in tournaments -> that it is just one player making a total luck play because he's tired/unconfident/somehow thinking negatively. This might be true in a best of 1 situation, but I maintain that in a series, being able and willing to cheese is quite an important skill to have, and being known as someone who will cheese from time to time can also be an advantage.
In series play, there is a rhythm that players get into, generally they have prepared a style to use and after a game or two, they have a good sense of how it interacts with their opponent's. In a world where no one cheeses, going into a 2nd/3rd/4th game or whatever, the most common place where their brain will be is deep in the little timings and adjustments they need to make to move that interaction in their favor more. The thing is, this is when someone is most vulnerable to some sort of cheese, because they are possibly thinking of how to cut corners, or instead of thinking "what's the danger now?" they are thinking about if they need to get some upgrade before they expand this time.
Example (SPOILER for GSL Ro32):
+ Show Spoiler +
The Little One and Hyperdub played two games in a row of similar openings pursued by each player, TLO playing an unorthodox thor opening that he seemed to have prepared for this match. Hyperdub made some adjustment in game 2 by going less for banshees and more for tanks and vikings earlier, but in both games Hyperdub ended up ahead after the early/early-mid game.
At this point, TLO has to be thinking in his build, what steps can I take to not end up behind again in game 3. At this point, Hyperdub makes a very savvy play, saying "I'm betting at this point, he's not concerning himself with safety enough, he's concerning himself with further down the line strategy." And he bet correctly, as TLO did not play safe (scouting his own natural/scouting close spawn first).
There is also the consideration that after a string of games without any sort of cheese, players can just be lulled into forgetting that it can happen to them, especially when the overall strategic trends of a series have been somewhat established.
The next benefit of cheese is being able to affect your opponent's mindset. Think of Jaedong here. Players know they absolutely cannot ignore their early safety against him because he is ruthless (Stork vs. Jaedong in OSL semis for one of many references). What this does is it disrupts their flow, prohibits them from cutting corners without seriously outsmarting him (hi Flash), and puts them under mental pressure from the outset, makes them scout early and pay closer attention which cuts into the attention they can give to laying out a super complex long term plan.
More GSL:
+ Show Spoiler +Did anyone notice how just by being known as a cheesy player DAVIT affected Clide's play, making him spend more time scouting the map. Now it didn't end well for DAVIT, but imagine he's at Clide's level but has the same cheese ability. He gains an advantage just from reputation, as Clide must pay a bit more attention in the early game.
For players who don't cheese very often, it can be very powerful as well. No one expects IdrA to 6 pool, so I'm sure he could catch some protoss totally off guard in a big match with it at some point.
All in all, knowing the right time to apply a cheese in a series is a very important skill that's quite misunderstood, and it's clear to me that a player with no cheeses in his arsenal is at a clear disadvantage. For a tournament player, it's an essential facet to develop.
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SC2 players are so bad cheesing even in a BoX is irrelevant at this point.
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nice op. should be filed under "stop calling strategic play cheese"
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ironic how BoX is the first part of boxer's name
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On September 21 2010 00:20 ArbAttack wrote:
SC2 players are so bad cheesing even in a BoX is irrelevant at this point.
It doesn't really relate to how good they are, at least if they are still about evenly matched.
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konadora
Singapore66363 Posts
it's like playing against Kwanro or Shine
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It reminds me of that one match between Jaedong and Boxer where it seemed like Jaedong was afraid of some early-game play by Boxer and opened 9 pool... only to find that Boxer was 14CC (on Kat). Felt like Boxer's reputation let him down.
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Anybody at liquidpoker could tell you, without any mention of rhythm/"lulling", that it is important to balance your play/openings by occasionally mixing in cheese. The more you go for eco-greedy builds (the opposite of cheese), the more you should cheese to increase your chances of winning/be more difficult to properly counter. This can be explained in more depth but "balancing your range/play" is absolute key, basic principle of poker (and game theory) that few people seem to understand at teamliquid.
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The reaction to the cheese in the + Show Spoiler + series made me very angry. I get the feeling that it was a perfect storm of fanboyism (remember that time where Flash 2:0'd Bisu with cheesex2?) and a GSL viewerbase who have never seen any BW and don't know about series play.
Thank you for a well written post that might educate some of these folks
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Cheese is definitely very important in series.I don't think it is possible to deny.
+ Show Spoiler +Personally the reason I got really angry was because tlo just happened to be there and if he wasn't hyperdub would've lost.I'm sorry but that is just luck.TLO should've scouted the close position or at least checked for a proxy yes but that doesn't mean the game wasn't won by pure luck.
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On September 21 2010 00:27 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 00:20 ArbAttack wrote:
SC2 players are so bad cheesing even in a BoX is irrelevant at this point. It doesn't really relate to how good they are, at least if they are still about evenly matched.
Are you honestly going to start on how Jaedong + Show Spoiler +4-pooling twice against Flash
My point stands: when the players are at a far, far, far level below humanly possible perfection play for an already strategically (imbalanced, young, call it whatever you please) limited game, cheesing, even in a BoX, IS irrelevant.
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EPT
