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So I was doing a couple random 2v2s as Zerg when the titular game pops up. My partner and I are terran and zerg respectively, our opponents are protoss and zerg.
Quick battle report, I hold off an early zling/baneling/zealot attack with a timely spine crawler and roaches (without the help of my partner, who was furiously teching). My partner techs straight to cloak banshees and proceeds to utterly destroy the other team (basically single handedly I didn't really do anything that game. My zerg is pretty bad ~_~). At this point the zerg on the other team starts spouting the nerdrage and how cloaked banshees is cheese.
Now, my definition of cheese is basically limited to extremely early rushes. To me cheesing is an extremely early rush that involves significant worker cuttage to power out some tier 1 units to end the game early i.e. 6 pool, 6 rax, proxy 2 gate and the like. Cloaked banshees is of course, not tier 1 and thus not cheese. They are extremely frustrating to lose against and would probably make me mad too, but I don't consider it cheese. Just a gay strat. It is risky sure, but in 2v2 terran can rely on his partner to kind of hold the early game while he techs.
So I proceed to disagree with the zerg and the insults fly back and forth, culminating in me challenging the zerg to a 1v1 (cuz that's how you settle dispute, dawg, 1v1, no items, Fox only, FD).
We 1v1 after the 2v2 on Metalopolis, him as zerg and me my main race toss. I do the forge FE that involves blocking his ramp with 2 pylons and a cannon.
Big no no.
He lets fly with the cheese accusations again and of course once again I disagree with him. Cannon blocking is of course gay as hell, but it just doesn't seem to fit in the same category as 6 rax reaper or 6 pool for me. Just a differing of definitions and opinions. I eventually win the ensuing macro game (wtf 75 probes lol) and he ragequits Idra-style.
Replays are provided.
Some BM from me as I respond to the zerg's BM.
TL;DR - Cloaked banshee ("RUSH!!!", as he put it) and pylon blocking = cheese? I guess this blog post will just degenerate into a thread of everyone's individual opinion on cheesing.
2v2
Lol his partner was an arranged team (he's got 120 games with DirtyFrank). My partner and I have never met before, he's just loads better than the rest of us.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-150441.jpg)
Following 1v1:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-150443.jpg)
 
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No its not cheese its just cheap
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"Cheese" is just a shitty term nowadays. People throw it around when they lose to something they feel gimicky or "skill-less" as if it were unstoppable. Cheese can be summed up as something that relies heavily on secrecy and if scouted, would be thwarted and you would be put at a disadvantage.
I wouldn't consider ramp block cheese. Cloaked Banshee rush, I suppose, if it were 1v1.
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Btw, what happened to 11 starport?
That would be cheese
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I'm envious, I've never had someone take me up on a 1v1 challenge after talking shit in a team game.
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I was expecting some Mozarella/Cheddar contraption =/
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On September 20 2010 15:05 Tensai176 wrote:
I was expecting some Mozarella/Cheddar contraption =/
Sorry to disappoint. I'm a scrubby American cheese man myself.
So I logged on when I made the blog post to review the replays and the zerg messages me with this gem:
ToX: whens your birthday? I wanna buy you a pair of dice
ToX has reconnected.
ToX: sry didnt hear u im not actually buying u anything
a nice pair of dice and a wheel of cheese does that sound good??
ur favorite things in life
PM me if you want lessons ill get your scrubby rating higher in no time, just gotta be willing to let go of them dice roll builds buddy
He blocked me  How am I supposed to get lessons now????
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Baa?21242 Posts
I don't care if it's cheese, what you did is gay as hell. You are a terrible person. D:
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Cheese is a term that came from broodwar, its already been well defined and you have the correct definition. SC2 has seen the influx of thousands of noobs who don't realise what cheese actually is and therefore get it totally wrong. The correct response to someone who is complaining of cheese is to explain this to them.
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I love it when my opponents get angry at me for winning.
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eh doesnt seem like cheese. if they wanna rage then just let them rage
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
i think it's best to not even consider that word in your starcraft lexicon. no quicker way to lose respect!
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I still don't understand what the difference is. People come up with those extremely abusive builds, plain lame and frustrating to play against, however when faced with the word Cheese, they fall on the defensive claiming it's not cheese, trying to play on the definition of the word. It doesn't matter what the name is, it's plain gay. Most of it will come from the early game of course, as the concept of it requires you to abuse the impossibility of your opponent to muster a response for your attack. Yet if a lame mid-game strategy is ruled by the same concept, why wouldn't it be cheese?
It's closely related to low-level fighting games, as you'll be over there doing your combos and tactics while the other person just spams the shit out of one attack. If you know how to defend against it, he fails, it's lame, you win. If you don't know, well you're dead, it'll be lame still, and you'll lose. (Please bear with the analogy, as it will obviously not apply to high level gameplay)
I often rage in my games not because I care if I win or lose, not because I feel the other person is skilless, but simply because those games are lame, not enjoyable the slightest in terms of gameplay, and does not make either of us a better player. One basing is not fun. Play standard, or go home cheese the A.I. all day.
To OP : Yes, I consider this cheese, because it's simply a well rounded word to sum up all the lame strategies like the ones you described.
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The question is silly.
It doesn't matter if a strategy is cheese or not.
What matters is whether a strategy wins in the circumstances you use it.
All else is irrelevant.
As for Zamkis, two things:
1) The player who wins is the better player. That's not necessarily the same thing as the player who can macro up on 5 bases while microing his units on 3 fronts. It depends on the game - great macro and multitask seems (as far as this noob can see, I could be wrong) mostly wasted on Warcraft 3. It's possible (but yes, unlikely) that cheese becomes the dominant strategy in sc2 as time goes on.
2) Believe it or not, cheesing does involve skill. Micro is the obvious one, but when cheesing or being cheesed, you're practicing being in unfamiliar game situations. You suddenly have to make a bunch of quick new decisions in circumstances you've almost certainly never been before. Do that often enough, it ought to improve your game sense and ability to think on your feet.
3) Learn to scout!
4) http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
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On September 20 2010 16:26 Aim Here wrote:
1) The player who wins is the better player.
Dangerous logic. I'd say IdrA is better than half of the people who he loses to.
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Anything that you would consider "gay as hell" is cheese.
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Anything the person who calls it cheese loses to is cheese. The term has no clear definitions beyond that it's used as an excuse for losing.
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On September 20 2010 16:54 FC.Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 16:26 Aim Here wrote:
1) The player who wins is the better player. Dangerous logic. I'd say IdrA is better than half of the people who he loses to.
Rekrul would disagree =D lol,
anyways, on another note, i think it depends on the type of banshee rush, there is a banshee rush wher eyou get like double gas like the same time that you build you're barracks and go like 9 rax > factory > starport, which i might consider cheese, because it will lose to any attack. but like a 111 tech to banshee is very standard.
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ToX is a raging pussy. And your strategies are cheap. But, if you win, no prob..
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Tox talks shit to awful players like you to provoke them into a 1v1 so he can destroy you assuming you're not a cheesing scrub. You essentially just got trolled and you got so butthurt over it you had to cheese to try to win.
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There is no such thing as cheese in 2v2. Cloaked banshees wouldn't even be cheese in 1v1. Cannon blocking a ramp in 1v1 isn't cheese, because there's no risk of it not working when scouted since it's meant to be scouted. Well if he never scouts it, then I think he has a problem.
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It depends on how you rush for banshees if its cheese or not. If you sac your whole econ to get the banshees out faster and are depending on them not rushing you, then yes I consider it cheese. If you have the opportunity to transition into a mid game situation because you delayed the banshees a little to get more econ and marines its not cheese.
I really dont know what to consider the pylon and cannon block vs zerg. It has clear transitions out, and is actually a very econ oriented build. But it might just be the gayest build in SC2 so that could qualify it as cheese
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Cheese is just a really short way of saying 'I was too dumb to scout, too stupid too adapt and even if I did, I probably lacked the mechanical skill to win anyway'
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The result is all that matters. A W is a W is a W, whether it involved 1 base or 6 bases. Who cares if it's cheese?
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On September 21 2010 01:23 Hawk wrote:
Cheese is just a really short way of saying 'I was too dumb to scout, too stupid too adapt and even if I did, I probably lacked the mechanical skill to win anyway'
For somebody who posts here so much you must be absolutely godawful at Starcraft.
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On September 20 2010 17:43 Metalwing wrote:
ToX is a raging pussy. And your strategies are cheap. But, if you win, no prob..
well that's not nice ;(
I liked your starcraft roleplay blog, smooooth
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On September 21 2010 00:48 Paca wrote:
Tox talks shit to awful players like you to provoke them into a 1v1 so he can destroy you assuming you're not a cheesing scrub. You essentially just got trolled and you got so butthurt over it you had to cheese to try to win.
On September 21 2010 01:47 Paca wrote:
For somebody who posts here so much you must be absolutely godawful at Starcraft.
Hey, Tox. Did you register a new account just to talk to me? How come you blocked me? I cant PM you for lessons now
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On September 21 2010 02:52 Tyrio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 00:48 Paca wrote:
Tox talks shit to awful players like you to provoke them into a 1v1 so he can destroy you assuming you're not a cheesing scrub. You essentially just got trolled and you got so butthurt over it you had to cheese to try to win. Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 01:47 Paca wrote:
For somebody who posts here so much you must be absolutely godawful at Starcraft. Hey, Tox. Did you register a new account just to talk to me? How come you blocked me? I cant PM you for lessons now
don't flatter yourself ^_^
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Honestly the only thing I think as protoss when I see TZ is "8 rax 8 pool." Nothing else really comes close to it on the cheese scale for the match up.
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On September 21 2010 01:47 Paca wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 01:23 Hawk wrote:
Cheese is just a really short way of saying 'I was too dumb to scout, too stupid too adapt and even if I did, I probably lacked the mechanical skill to win anyway' For somebody who posts here so much you must be absolutely godawful at Starcraft.
Nah, I'm just man enough accept that losses are my own fault instead of blaming it on stupid things like 'MY OPPONENT RUSHED VS MY MACRO BUILD, CHEATER CHEATER CHEATER!!!!'
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random team doesn't mean shit when you turtle up and rush banshees, point is it's an all in strat, if we had detection ready at that extremely early point (which is obviously unlikely) it was over, that's cheese to me. rolling the dice praying for a free win.
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Oh man the people who lost made TL accounts to continue the 'argument' and nerdrage?
Who's paca btw? is he blue? everybody else in that 2v2 has clear and obvious tl names. or is he just some random super BM troll that popped up?
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i just did a quick search, and didn't find anything but this, and it doesnt really define cheese the way most of us do. for the general definition, would a 6factory all-in tvp count as cheese? would 1fact 1port count as cheese? would ayumi?
i dont really know any sc2 equivalents lol (except 4gate i think), but would these be cheesy or just gay. or neither because you're so pro and can hold them off with ease >.>
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On September 22 2010 15:12 madnessman wrote:Oh man the people who lost made TL accounts to continue the 'argument' and nerdrage? Who's paca btw? is he blue? everybody else in that 2v2 has clear and obvious tl names. or is he just some random super BM troll that popped up?
Yeah, I actually registered a year ago and posted since to make it seem like I was a legit TL user anticipating this moment
Or maybe you're just too dense to check join date, who knows!
I don't know what constitutes nerd rage to you, if defending a stance that sacrificing your economy on one attack that is instantly shut down by detection is nerd rage.. Nah, sounds like you're just a little slow. No offense!
All is well, me and Tyrio have reconciled, we flipped coins together from sunset to sunrise, it was a magnificent night
I hope to do it again sometime
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Yeah, anything that rushes for fast invisible units that aren't obs with the aim of killing them because they didn't scout you and your whole strategy depends on that is pretty cheesy.
Pylon / cannon blocking is pretty cheesy too.
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EPT
