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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On September 02 2010 03:30 JIJIyO wrote:
I don't want to cause any tension among EG, but I wanted to ask what you meant by "exploitative version" of what you wanted to do, Inc. If you don't choose to answer, that's understandable.
I personally wouldn't pay money to get coached in Starcraft, but whatever makes you money and is legal is all good to me. Everyone needs money, so why not do it by doing something you love.
Good luck in future endeavours EG and Gosucoaching.
Future/Psyonic got 18$ from each 30$ an hour lessont hey gave. Louder took nearly half. He didn't tell anyone, even those two guys that they were still 30$ an hour coaches and that the site was taking THAT much.
There is more but I won't air it out publicly as I don't need to. Louder has flat out said I am wrong so I'd love it if he tempted me to talk more about it.
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Thanks for your multiple posts iNcontroL. I'm a SC freak and was considering lessons to improve my play (on top of watching Day9 religiously). I think you were spot on in your thinking. If you have a plane stalling out, engines failing, pilot reaching for the ejection handle you don't think "Oh, he might be trying to bring it in to land." Good job punching out now before your fate was sealed.
I would happily pay for lessons or whatever your new project may be.
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Yeah best to just stay quiet and just do your own thing Inc (this goes out to the other coaches as well ... do your own thing ... you'll pocket more money and are a lot more flexible with your own scheduling and your own payments). This 15% fee for scheduling/handling payments is just wasteful overhead and less money going to the coaches themselves. And that also causes customers to have to foot a larger bill.
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On September 02 2010 07:01 lac29 wrote:
Yeah best to just stay quiet and just do your own thing Inc (this goes out to the other coaches as well ... do your own thing ... you'll pocket more money and are a lot more flexible with your own scheduling and your own payments). This 15% fee for scheduling/handling payments is just wasteful overhead and less money going to the coaches themselves. And that also causes customers to have to foot a larger bill.
15%, closer to 45%!
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Yeah, I forgot who ... but someone put out the 15% (I think Louder said it but don't quote me).
And while we are talking about reasonable rates ... I think $20-50 per hour depending on your qualifications seems reasonable imo. There is little to no preparation needed to teach SC2 lessons so that's why I don't think it's cool to be charging more than $50 per hour unless you really are internationally known and have achievements to back you up ... or if you're doing extra preparations for the customer (like writing up a training schedule and watching a customers' replays in your off-time).
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On September 02 2010 06:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 00:06 Louder wrote:Also, since this was aired publicly, even though I addressed it in my main post, do not believe that coaches are getting shafted. They are not. There's a narrow window of time for which I can't pay them for lessons, which means a couple of them will lose out on a little money, but it can't be helped - and this whole thing will end up personally costing me hundreds, which I can certainly live with  What do you call it when a coach does coaching, (Machine did 700+ $ worth) and doesn't get paid? I understand you told him he may get some of that back. That is the definition of being "shafted." Also that unpaid time wasn't a small window.. it was 3 weeks. Additionally, all this stuff with the site was never discussed with me, your supposed #2. The email, never got to me, I called/texted you NOTHING. So don't start with a conspiracy theory that I had this planned or something. I am a professional coach and I am looking at the head of the website issuing a giant blanket refund to the would be students and then announcing that individual coaching is canceled on a website FOR INDIVIDUAL COACHING. You tell me what I was supposed to believe?
Not that I'm trying to add fuel to the fire, but legitimate question here - Louder says that he lost lots of money on this as well, and that during a "small window of time" some of the coaches wouldn't be paid. What happened to this money? Where did the money go? If all money was collected before the lessons took place, then what possibly could have happened to the money that would make not paying the coaches legitimate?
I just don't see how any money could have been "lost". Funds paid for which lessons have not yet happened, fine. i get it, issue a refund, everyone's happy. But where did the money go for the lessons that HAVE happened that would a) prevent coaches from getting paid, and b) mean that Louder also lost money? Money doesn't just disappear. It ended up in Louder's paypal, and it's not being transferred to coaches. Something doesn't seem right, unless I'm missing some kind of financial liability / overhead.
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I think the lost money is probably more of lost potential money from customers who wanted lessons but were not given them.
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On September 02 2010 07:11 lac29 wrote:
I think the lost money is probably more of lost potential money from customers who wanted lessons but were not given them.
But he specifically said that during a small window, some of the coaches did not get paid for lessons they conducted. Incontrol also said Machine lost out on like $700 worth of lessons.
What do you call it when a coach does coaching, (Machine did 700+ $ worth) and doesn't get paid? I understand you told him he may get some of that back. That is the definition of being "shafted."
If he meant that because of the $18 / $12 split, machine lost $12 / lesson for approximately 58 lessons (totalling $700 in potential income that went to the house) then that's a different story, but it almost sounds to me like machine got paid nothing for some lessons. Which doesn't make sense.
Maybe I just misunderstood and it's like you said - namely that everyone got paid for lessons they already gave, but they lost potential money from students who had already paid, not yet received their lessons, and are now getting a refund. But that wouldnt' be a huge deal, the coaches can always contact those students directly now and regain the lost potential earnings.
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On September 02 2010 07:14 monad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 07:11 lac29 wrote:
I think the lost money is probably more of lost potential money from customers who wanted lessons but were not given them. But he specifically said that during a small window, some of the coaches did not get paid for lessons they conducted. Incontrol also said Machine lost out on like $700 worth of lessons. Show nested quote +
What do you call it when a coach does coaching, (Machine did 700+ $ worth) and doesn't get paid? I understand you told him he may get some of that back. That is the definition of being "shafted."
If he meant that because of the $18 / $12 split, machine lost $12 / lesson for approximately 58 lessons (totalling $700 in potential income that went to the house) then that's a different story, but it almost sounds to me like machine got paid nothing for some lessons. Which doesn't make sense.
Could very well have been the result of poor bookkeeping. A few bucks here, another few there. It adds up. I'm not going to say Louder is the SC2 equivalent of Madoff, but either someone seriously screwed the pooch here or certain individuals were siphoning funds. Then again this is all speculation, and unless someone sues I don't expect we'll ever know the full story.
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On September 02 2010 07:18 AgentMulder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 07:14 monad wrote:On September 02 2010 07:11 lac29 wrote:
I think the lost money is probably more of lost potential money from customers who wanted lessons but were not given them. But he specifically said that during a small window, some of the coaches did not get paid for lessons they conducted. Incontrol also said Machine lost out on like $700 worth of lessons.
What do you call it when a coach does coaching, (Machine did 700+ $ worth) and doesn't get paid? I understand you told him he may get some of that back. That is the definition of being "shafted."
If he meant that because of the $18 / $12 split, machine lost $12 / lesson for approximately 58 lessons (totalling $700 in potential income that went to the house) then that's a different story, but it almost sounds to me like machine got paid nothing for some lessons. Which doesn't make sense. Could very well have been the result of poor bookkeeping. A few bucks here, another few there. It adds up. I'm not going to say Louder is the SC2 equivalent of Madoff, but either someone seriously screwed the pooch here or certain individuals were siphoning funds
Well I'm not trying to make accusations, I'm just posing the question. Probably because I actually paid for some lessons, and although I got them and they surpassed my expectations (I guess I was one of the lucky ones), I'm now wondering if the coach who spent his time with me actually got paid.
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I think a company gets dinged a fair amount whenever a paypal transaction has a chargeback on it... Louder said to make a claim on Paypal for refunds, so I'm guessing that a fair amount of money "vanishes" because of this.
Then again, that's just my uninformed perspective on the situation.
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On September 02 2010 07:21 psychopat wrote:
I think a company gets dinged a fair amount whenever a paypal transaction has a chargeback on it... Louder said to make a claim on Paypal for refunds, so I'm guessing that a fair amount of money "vanishes" because of this.
Then again, that's just my uninformed perspective on the situation.
well I dunno how it is for companies but if you're simply issuing a refund for personal payments or say an ebay transaction, the fee associated with the payment is refunded to the seller as well
could be different when a chargeback is placed, i'm not sure
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There are paid starcraft tutoring sites?..
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That's an interesting theory, but Louder specifically said that he "doesn't have the time" to manually issue refunds, but that he could in theory do that. That's fine to determine that YOUR time is worth a certain amount and take a personal financial hit because of that, but it's not fine to determine that for other people.
i.e. assuming that is the reason, then he has the obligation to pay all coaches in full for services rendered, and he can take full loss on the chargebacks from Paypal. Nobody else did anything wrong, and they should be paid in full. if it's just a few dollars maybe the coaches don't care enough to press it. But $700 is quite a chunk of change, and could stand up in small claims court.
Of course we're still speculating on why there's "lost money" (if there is at all).
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On September 02 2010 07:28 dani_caliKorea wrote:
There are paid starcraft tutoring sites?..
Dude, GTFO. Welcome to civilization. Are you now going to say "I don't understand why anyone would pay to get better at a video game"?
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On September 02 2010 07:28 monad wrote:
That's an interesting theory, but Louder specifically said that he "doesn't have the time" to manually issue refunds, but that he could in theory do that. That's fine to determine that YOUR time is worth a certain amount and take a personal financial hit because of that, but it's not fine to determine that for other people.
i.e. assuming that is the reason, then he has the obligation to pay all coaches in full for services rendered, and he can take full loss on the chargebacks from Paypal. Nobody else did anything wrong, and they should be paid in full. if it's just a few dollars maybe the coaches don't care enough to press it. But $700 is quite a chunk of change, and could stand up in small claims court.
Of course we're still speculating on why there's "lost money" (if there is at all).
Yeah, that one line about not having the time basically killed any faith I had in Louder. It shows a lack of commitment to the consumer and those who worked to coach the players. I want to revise what I said earlier. He is slowly turning into the Tony Hayward of SC2.
But again I do not know the whole story, nobody does. For all I know that comment has a deeper context. But from here it looks like someone got in over their head, pushed away their #2 man, and is now trying to distance himself from the project as quickly as possible.
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On September 02 2010 07:28 monad wrote:
That's an interesting theory, but Louder specifically said that he "doesn't have the time" to manually issue refunds, but that he could in theory do that. That's fine to determine that YOUR time is worth a certain amount and take a personal financial hit because of that, but it's not fine to determine that for other people.
i.e. assuming that is the reason, then he has the obligation to pay all coaches in full for services rendered, and he can take full loss on the chargebacks from Paypal. Nobody else did anything wrong, and they should be paid in full. if it's just a few dollars maybe the coaches don't care enough to press it. But $700 is quite a chunk of change, and could stand up in small claims court.
Of course we're still speculating on why there's "lost money" (if there is at all).
Ya, seriously... Louder is fine with people filing for returns with PayPal because he doesn't have 'the time'; however, he hasn't paid his coaches in full? How about you find the time to give the proper refunds to people yourself, Louder, then use the money you saved to pay your coaches? Or you could save it up and get yourself a damn good P.R. person because you will likely need it after this debacle!
edit: couple more things. I don't think anyone would have given Louder a tough time if he said he had a death in the family, so if people want their money back immediately, file with PayPal otherwise wait. He neglected to say this and that is pretty dumb IMO ppl aren't mind readers and if they don't understand your circumstances you come off as a total douche. Additionally, I think it's wrong how Louder got on this blog and all but called Incontrol out as basically a sabateur and liar. Real class act Louder.
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Again I'm not trying to make accusations, just posing the questions. Maybe nobody owes us any answers anyway, but in fairness to the coaches, someone should be asking these questions. I really don't want to feel like the money I paid went to some sort of paypal chargeback ass-covering fund instead of the coach.
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On September 02 2010 07:40 monad wrote:
Again I'm not trying to make accusations, just posing the questions. Maybe nobody owes us any answers anyway, but in fairness to the coaches, someone should be asking these questions. I really don't want to feel like the money I paid went to some sort of paypal chargeback ass-covering fund instead of the coach.
At this point I don't think making accusations is necessarily a bad thing, and you have every right to question. No matter what any of us think or say, it's beyond our control. Things would have been peachy if Louder had came out and post when he said he would. Instead we had to hear it from another party. I'm willing to bet if inc hadn't come forward people would be none the wiser about Gosu's troubles. And then when he does post it's sort of self-richous and like "we aren't all to blame inc hates me so qq fuck you."
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LOL. What a mess. Didn't expect anything other than that though.
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EPT
