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On July 31 2010 04:51 TheAntZ wrote:
At this point its really just
Protoss/Zerg/Random: Man terran seems really strong compared to the other races
Terran: NUH UH!
if the other two races are forgettin to bitch about each other and team up on yours, then thats a clear sign that somethings wrong at SOME level
example, protoss at low ranks in BW.
No it's not.
There's bitching and whining about terran in every live report thread for brood war too. There's a very clear bias amongst low level against T in general, because:
1. T is for turtles hurr durr
2. I can't a-move into T and win hurr durr. (well actually you can in BW)
3. noobs consider TvT boring, thus by some logical leap T must also be always boring.
So far though, the best "proofs" of T being too good is a bunch of foreigner zergs letting T have half the map on steppes (one of the most T favored maps) and/or a-moving into a tank line.
I'm gonna wait until "terrans start winning everything" like IdrA says, but until then there's no need to over-nerf.
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On July 31 2010 14:53 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 05:02 Sentenal wrote:On July 31 2010 04:51 TheAntZ wrote:
At this point its really just
Protoss/Zerg/Random: Man terran seems really strong compared to the other races
Terran: NUH UH!
if the other two races are forgettin to bitch about each other and team up on yours, then thats a clear sign that somethings wrong at SOME level
example, protoss at low ranks in BW. This is very true. Plus, even some Terrans agree that Terran is OP. Just ask LuckyFool, lol yep. We deserve it though after 11 years of bullshit in bw. 11 Years of Boxer, Nada, Oov, and Flash, and now you deserve SC2 too? 
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dps is more important than damage per shot.
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On July 31 2010 08:06 SC2Phoenix wrote:
They seriosly need to nerf marauders or fix something with terran, Its pretty stupid when all you have to do is A move with marine marauder and win. Actually you need to stim aswell so thats 3 clicks to win. Pretty fair.
ohh, the SC2 1a2a3a4a jokes are coming =)
i'm a SC2 terran, pretty high level diamond, and i gotta say, terran is OP at medium or low levels, but there are so many ways that P and Z can rip apart my position and just make life hella hard for me, that they aren't doing.
things like:
immortal dropping to snipe tanks.
proper muta harass. (decision making i see is just horrible)
zerg just aren't macroing enough when they are muta harassing. i just played a game where a zerg did some very good muta harass for almost 5 minutes straight. then i scan and see hive, and i'm like fuck, broodlords already? then i realize he's still on 2 bases.
zerg needs to hidden tech better. soon as lair is done, spew some creep with an overlord, and build ur spire, or ur infestor den, or ur shit there. do you know how hard it is for terran to fucking scout? zerglings run faster than scvs. our scans cost us 280 minerals every time we use it, and we can't even use it that often. whenever we can't see ur spire, we're fucked. hide ur fucking spire for cdrying out loud, and stop crying OP because you aren't willing to do these such simple things.
muta harass needs to snipe sensor towers. stop sniping my mules lol. i nkow how the math works out, but honestly, it's wrong. ur better off killing scvs.
oh ya, and creep takes fucking forever to go away now. when u got ur god damn creep on my fucking expo, i need to kill ur shit, and then wait another minute before i can land my god damn comand center there? u zerg bastards need to abuse that shit. u know i'm going to slow push expand when i'm a turtle terran. u got ur lair tech up. u know u got map control, so put ur g.d. overlord spewing shit all over my next expo so i can't expo there.
sheesh.
etc. i need to sleep.
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On July 31 2010 21:16 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 14:53 LuckyFool wrote:On July 31 2010 05:02 Sentenal wrote:On July 31 2010 04:51 TheAntZ wrote:
At this point its really just
Protoss/Zerg/Random: Man terran seems really strong compared to the other races
Terran: NUH UH!
if the other two races are forgettin to bitch about each other and team up on yours, then thats a clear sign that somethings wrong at SOME level
example, protoss at low ranks in BW. This is very true. Plus, even some Terrans agree that Terran is OP. Just ask LuckyFool, lol yep. We deserve it though after 11 years of bullshit in bw. 11 Years of Boxer, Nada, Oov, and Flash, and now you deserve SC2 too?
Boxer, Nada, Oov and Flash are not human. Go look at terran win percentages on most any iccup map and you will see the average normal terran deserves every bit of what we get in sc2. Terran isn't even OP, it's just harder to fuck up now.
The most popular map overall on iccup, Python, Terran has losing win percentages in both matchups. Fighting spirit (the most popular map last season) we're barely staying 50% in TvZ and have 49% TvP with protoss over 3k game advantage.
heres a nice one too: heartbreak ridge. TvP terran has 41% winrate. FOURTY ONE PRECENT WINRATE WTF? and in TvZ we have an amazing 46% winrate.
Meanwhile the "terran maps" like Lost Temple and Othello the best Terran winrate is like 52% lol? protoss users cry about these maps and the results are near even while the maps on the other end terran is near 40% winrate.
So you can go on and talk about Boxer/Nada/Oov/Flash but the vast majority of us mere mortals are very ready to put you protoss scum where you belong. And it's not even gonna happen because storm is still fucking retarded and void rays are imba as shit so honestly I can try to lie to myself that terrans finally have it better but honestly we don't. Shit just doesn't glitch now.
stats are all here: http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/sc_ladder_maps.html
edit; Oh btw I looked at the neo req winrates and it made me want to vomit.
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people aren't harassing properly and terran is even better than in BW when they are set up. right now zerg seems like the race that would be most abusive at higher levels. building corrupt, changeling, burrowed banelings, nydus harass, etc.
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On July 30 2010 22:02 Nyovne wrote:
Funny how it's the other two races that win practically every single event.
True but for the lower level peaple terran is so easy to win as comparedd to the other races. We are not all ranked 1st in the world like the peaple that play in the events that peaple watch.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2010 15:57 XKiller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2010 22:02 Nyovne wrote:
Funny how it's the other two races that win practically every single event. True but for the lower level peaple terran is so easy to win as comparedd to the other races. We are not all ranked 1st in the world like the peaple that play in the events that peaple watch.
If it's balanced at high levels, then it's not a concern for low-level play, because people will still sort out to their appropriate skill levels if the matchmaking system works.
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On August 01 2010 16:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2010 15:57 XKiller wrote:On July 30 2010 22:02 Nyovne wrote:
Funny how it's the other two races that win practically every single event. True but for the lower level peaple terran is so easy to win as comparedd to the other races. We are not all ranked 1st in the world like the peaple that play in the events that peaple watch. If it's balanced at high levels, then it's not a concern for low-level play, because people will still sort out to their appropriate skill levels if the matchmaking system works.
Let's say X requires more skill than Y to play(micro/macro/whatev). If you place "noob1" playing X vs. "noob2" playing Y, then the one playing Y will win. Just saying, balancing around high-level will not automaticly balance low-level, and what is balanced in low-level may not be balanced high-level. Catch my drift? 
As long as we're not dealing with everything beeing 100% hardcounters, there will be issues like this.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2010 17:08 Kongkopa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2010 16:39 TheYango wrote:On August 01 2010 15:57 XKiller wrote:On July 30 2010 22:02 Nyovne wrote:
Funny how it's the other two races that win practically every single event. True but for the lower level peaple terran is so easy to win as comparedd to the other races. We are not all ranked 1st in the world like the peaple that play in the events that peaple watch. If it's balanced at high levels, then it's not a concern for low-level play, because people will still sort out to their appropriate skill levels if the matchmaking system works. Let's say X requires more skill than Y to play(micro/macro/whatev). If you place "noob1" playing X vs. "noob2" playing Y, then the one playing Y will win. Just saying, balancing around high-level will not automaticly balance low-level, and what is balanced in low-level may not be balanced high-level. Catch my drift? As long as we're not dealing with everything beeing 100% hardcounters, there will be issues like this.
I'm not saying that it will be balanced. I'm saying that low-level balance is a non-issue, for two reasons:
1) There is no tangible benefit for being "good" at one race at low levels. There is no gain or loss from being a "bronze level Terran" or a "silver level Protoss". For high-level players, there is a gain for playing a race that is especially good because of the real tangible gain from it (money, fame, etc.). At low levels, the key concern is whether it's an enjoyable experience, and that in and of itself is largely unrelated to balance (especially since evaluating balance at that level is intractable, see below).
2) It's hard to isolate "skill" independent of their race. It's more reasonable for high-level players because you can use SC1 ability as a baseline (as Idra has done so when evaluating players like Tester, Rainbow, and Cool), but for low-level players with questionable backgrounds, your only measure of "skill" is their success with the race in question. This makes it impossible to objectively analyze issues of balance because you can't tell whether game outcomes happen because people are playing well/badly or because something is imbalanced. If you can't measure how well you're doing at balance, then there's no way to tell if you're improving things or making them worse.
Effectively, the issue of balance comes down to this--if X and Y are balanced, then a player choosing X and an equally skilled player choosing Y should end up 50:50 against each other. The problem is that at low levels, it's impossible to determine whether players are "equally skilled". As such, trying to answer the question of whether something is balanced for low levels is a fruitless exercise.
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No, but balancing the highest level of the game means that it is balanced. Everything else is based on the player's skill. If X vs. Y is balanced and Y wins, then X needs to improve in that area until he can beat it.
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lol awesome blog yo.
Seriously 100% agree that Terran is OP atm. Any terran who disagrees is clearly delusional. I'm zerg player and I have a winning record vs terran but boy do i have to work extra hard for those wins. Even against people im clearly better then.
And the reason T isn't winning all the tournaments is because most of the T's suck. And are just getting by with there OP race. So when they play someone 5x better then them they lose.
In all honesty though im really shocked that some of you terran players dont think your race is OP lol.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2010 23:29 [GiTM]-Ace wrote:
lol awesome blog yo.
Seriously 100% agree that Terran is OP atm. Any terran who disagrees is clearly delusional. I'm zerg player and I have a winning record vs terran but boy do i have to work extra hard for those wins. Even against people im clearly better then.
And the reason T isn't winning all the tournaments is because most of the T's suck. And are just getting by with there OP race. So when they play someone 5x better then them they lose.
In all honesty though im really shocked that some of you terran players dont think your race is OP lol.
How do you evaluate that you are "clearly better than" someone else? Players at Idra's level have a baseline of RTS skill based on SC1, but at lower- and mid- levels what are you using to judge that you're playing 5x better than someone else?
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Lol this is like sc1 where most sc1 players say protoss is the easiest race to use. And it is. Protoss players even generally agree. Now in sc2 we have terran players saying terran is balanced or even underpowered? WTF?!?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 02 2010 06:53 Chronopolis wrote:
Lol this is like sc1 where most sc1 players say protoss is the easiest race to use. And it is. Protoss players even generally agree. Now in sc2 we have terran players saying terran is balanced or even underpowered? WTF?!?
To be fair, IIRC the Protoss easy race meme didn't come into existence until after forge fast expand became standard play in PvZ.
I agree that TvZ is imbalanced atm, but I think it's premature to be calling any race easy at this stage. Not to mention that "easy" and "imbalanced" are not the same thing.
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I'm trying to remember who said that by the time the first Zealot was trained that T already had 2 rines and a M being trained.... It might have been on the Bnet forums...
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EPT
