There are things that annoy me. And then there is the SC2 Strategy Forum. I'm not saying that I don't like that place, or that it's even a "bad" place to frequent. But there are a few things that really get me fired up that always, always seem to wiggle their way into every single thread.
Angry!
"Push." Chances are, it's not a push. Whenever you gather your big ball of Protoss hodgepodge and 1a roll into his natural, that's not a push. Whenever you rally your MMM to take out his 3rd, that's not a push. Whenever you run your speedlings and banelings into his main, that's not a push. Whenever you harass his mineral lines with hellions or banshees, that's not a push. Seriously, it's gotten out of hand:
Does anyone have a replay ZvT that beats a fast banshee push?
as mentioned above, you can put down a factory as soon as the rax is finished - you can also reactor the barracks immediately thereafter, resulting in a really quick hellion push (or vikings if you go that far up), which is pretty legit against zerg.
I am pretty tired of spling/bling push or all-ins in ZvZ so I've been trying out some FE+roach opening into 2-base muta before end of phase one beta.
If you're describing an attack, then say "attack." If you're describing a harass, then say "harass." If you're leapfrogging your tanks to push your opponent back and gain ground, then say "push."
Generally not something you "push" with.
"Timing push." You probably meant to say "timing attack." But chances are, it's not even a timing attack. I know it makes you sound cool and sophisticated and knowledgeable to throw in an occasional "timing" into your post, but chances are, there is no "timing" involved at all. Chances are, you just macroed together a big mass of stuff, looked at it and thought "hey, this looks pretty sweet," and decided to attack. Or maybe you waited and waited until you got those three shiny Colossi before moving out. That's not called a timing attack. The key difference is that timing attacks involve what the opponent is doing. For example, you attack him right before his spire finishes. Or maybe you attack him because your obs sees him mass droning. Or maybe, just maybe, given standard play and his race's production capabilities, he can only be expected to have X units when your 2/1 finishes, meaning you can actually legitimately "push" into his natural. But that can't be the case, because there's no such thing as "standard" in the beta right now, at least in the sense of concrete timings. Which is the sense people are using when they go around spamming "timing push."
SC2 still has a long way to go before these become prominent
This one doesn't bother me so much as it intrigues me. "Pop." I'd imagine that it could be a flavorful alternative to saying a Zerg unit or building dies, since they generally have a nice "popping" animation (or, at least, they used to). But no, it's just a fun-to-say synonym for something finishing. Like, "spire pops" means "the spire is done." Or "tank pops" means "the tank is done." Or "factory pops" means "the factory is done." That last one gives me a funny mental image of an SCV in a wizard's robe with deeply furrowed brows who mutters a spell for an eternity. And then, suddenly, *pop*. You get a factory. I guess it's okay for Terran units, though, since they seem to "pop out" of their production facilities.
Merlin the Macro Mage: "Pop! Here's your factory."
Anyways. Push. Timing push. Stop saying them. 99% of the time, you just meant to say attack. If I could just stop seeing and hearing these things, I would be so happy I'd draw another Zerg comic. Seriously. + Show Spoiler +
Saracen, from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank you. Because I too think it has gotten out of hand. It annoys me to no end and I hope everyone reads this. I also want casters to read this because they make this mistake a lot of then the people who are listen that don't know any better then go on to make the mistake as well.
This is something that's been quietly niggling at me in the back of my mind aswell. Everyone seems to be using it that way, even some commentators. This blog needed to happen eventually, and you did it well.
These phrases have been used in a wrong way (I suppose) since the dawn of time (perhaps not so much a timing attack/push but push definitely has been). Eventually I stopped caring about since recently no one seemed to point it out anymore, but yeah, usage of these words should definitely be straightened.
quoted for freckin truth. The influx of new users here when sc2 was announced caused the "push" term to be misused. I remember 3,4 years ago push was used exclusively for terran tank pushes.
Alot of this happens because most of the commentators say this stupid crap, I won't name any its cause I'm not an asshole, but they have a bigger influence than they might think, and its obvious some of them don't know how stupid some of the stuff they say is.
On July 01 2010 08:29 Baksteen wrote: I think you worded it quite well! Totally with you!
You only forgot the 'do a tech switch' part. People dont even understand what they say, tech switch to tanks! What is this tech switch thing?!?!
if you're working with say a bionic build. with an acad, ebay running +1's and 4 rax's and suddenly you place down 3 factories with seige running you have "tech switched" . in essence youve changed your army composition
On July 01 2010 08:29 Baksteen wrote: I think you worded it quite well! Totally with you!
You only forgot the 'do a tech switch' part. People dont even understand what they say, tech switch to tanks! What is this tech switch thing?!?!
if you're working with say a bionic build. with an acad, ebay running +1's and 4 rax's and suddenly you place down 3 factories with seige running you have "tech switched" . in essence youve changed your army composition
Yes but shouldn't that just be the natural flow your game has? You mass something, he counters, you make other stuff. Is it really needed to use that word? :p
And people use it all the time so it has no meaning, when is it just adapting and when does it become a tech switch? If i make 1 starport and do one banshee and after that only make marines have i tech switched? Or does it only count when i have 4 rax's + eng bay + acad running ups and i suddenly abandon all rax's and go with 3 facts?
One of the better rants I've read on TL... I agree with some other posts, terminology is being slaughtered by the new people that don't have a SC background and think they know what they are saying.
If you're leapfrogging your tanks to push your opponent back and gain ground, then say "push."
If by definition a push is some movement or attack to force your opponent back for you to gain ground then all three of your situations can be described as "pushing" under the right context. I think you should either clearly define what you think pushing is or extend your examples.
On July 01 2010 08:29 Baksteen wrote: I think you worded it quite well! Totally with you!
You only forgot the 'do a tech switch' part. People dont even understand what they say, tech switch to tanks! What is this tech switch thing?!?!
if you're working with say a bionic build. with an acad, ebay running +1's and 4 rax's and suddenly you place down 3 factories with seige running you have "tech switched" . in essence youve changed your army composition
Yes but shouldn't that just be the natural flow your game has? You mass something, he counters, you make other stuff. Is it really needed to use that word? :p
And people use it all the time so it has no meaning, when is it just adapting and when does it become a tech switch? If i make 1 starport and do one banshee and after that only make marines have i tech switched? Or does it only count when i have 4 rax's + eng bay + acad running ups and i suddenly abandon all rax's and go with 3 facts?
a tech switch is basically where you persue a different branch in the tech tree
for example bionic and mechanic are totally different branches on the 'tech tree' for you to abandon bionic and move towards mechanic would be a tech switch
but it is costly and unless executed cautiously (deep 5) should rarely be used but im mostly talking about sc:bw :D
There needs to be a terminology guide because there's a lot of commentators who just don't know and they're unwittingly spreading these misused words to the masses.
I mean this blog and Chill's one are just going to get buried in blogs, it's a topic worth a proper discussion.
On July 01 2010 08:29 Baksteen wrote: I think you worded it quite well! Totally with you!
You only forgot the 'do a tech switch' part. People dont even understand what they say, tech switch to tanks! What is this tech switch thing?!?!
if you're working with say a bionic build. with an acad, ebay running +1's and 4 rax's and suddenly you place down 3 factories with seige running you have "tech switched" . in essence youve changed your army composition
Yes but shouldn't that just be the natural flow your game has? You mass something, he counters, you make other stuff. Is it really needed to use that word? :p
And people use it all the time so it has no meaning, when is it just adapting and when does it become a tech switch? If i make 1 starport and do one banshee and after that only make marines have i tech switched? Or does it only count when i have 4 rax's + eng bay + acad running ups and i suddenly abandon all rax's and go with 3 facts?
a tech switch is basically where you persue a different branch in the tech tree
for example bionic and mechanic are totally different branches on the 'tech tree' for you to abandon bionic and move towards mechanic would be a tech switch
but it is costly and unless executed cautiously (deep 5) should rarely be used but im mostly talking about sc:bw :D
Yea but the annoying part is people call the thing i described (get a fast banshee, then make ur MMM ball) a tech switch also. There is no clear definition, nor can there ever be because it relies on the point where you are in the game. That is why i hate that word. Why not instead say, switch to tanks when you see xxx happening, it is way more clear then just go OMGOMG TECH SWITCH TO MECH11!!
Doesn't a tech switch require that it be part of a strategy to fool your opponent into thinking you are doing one tech when you do another? Like putting up a spire and THEN getting hydras or something like that?
On July 01 2010 08:14 Saracen wrote: "Pop." I'd imagine that it could be a flavorful alternative to saying a Zerg unit or building dies, since they generally have a nice "popping" animation (or, at least, they used to). But no, it's just a fun-to-say synonym for something finishing. Like, "spire pops" means "the spire is done." Or "tank pops" means "the tank is done." Or "factory pops" means "the factory is done." That last one gives me a funny mental image of an SCV in a wizard's robe with deeply furrowed brows who mutters a spell for an eternity. And then, suddenly, *pop*. You get a factory. I guess it's okay for Terran units, though, since they seem to "pop out" of their production facilities.
I like referring to zerg units and buildings as popping. First off, units hatch from eggs. The shell bursts open, the unit cries out victoriously at its new life, and then rallies. I suppose 'explode' would be a better word for the units, but pop is so much easier for the lazy folk. It's one syllable and three letters. It's barely a word!
Anywho, buildings are much the same. Instead of an egg, they morph in that pulsating pupa sac with that droney going all zygote and shit. Upon finishing the sac bursts open and the new building sits there breathing, alive. Besides, saying "My spire just morphed" doesn't have the same ring as "My spire just popped". It feels much more deliberate and in turn, makes me feel like a bigger badass.
On July 01 2010 08:52 micronesia wrote: Doesn't a tech switch require that it be part of a strategy to fool your opponent into thinking you are doing one tech when you do another? Like putting up a spire and THEN getting hydras or something like that?
of course in pro games one would only "tech switch" to catch the opponent off guard hence deep 5. No sane player would deviate from his gameplan early - midgame where money is at the premium
On July 01 2010 08:52 micronesia wrote: Doesn't a tech switch require that it be part of a strategy to fool your opponent into thinking you are doing one tech when you do another? Like putting up a spire and THEN getting hydras or something like that?
Because the build he linked to is a "baneling push." -_-
Exactly.
okay but why? what's the point lol when i looked at it, it wasn't even called a "baneling push." and it shouldn't be.
There wasn't really much of a point to be honest LOL except that it was used wrong in the wiki entry, if you look inside, it says push several times in the description and details. When you said Baneling push that article popped up in my mind. I wasn't saying you were wrong if that's what you were thinking.
Because the build he linked to is a "baneling push." -_-
Exactly.
okay but why? what's the point lol when i looked at it, it wasn't even called a "baneling push." and it shouldn't be.
There wasn't really much of a point to be honest LOL except that it was used wrong in the wiki entry, if you look inside, it says push several times in the description and details. When you said Baneling push that article popped up in my mind. I wasn't saying you were wrong if that's what you were thinking.
Because the build he linked to is a "baneling push." -_-
Exactly.
okay but why? what's the point lol when i looked at it, it wasn't even called a "baneling push." and it shouldn't be.
There wasn't really much of a point to be honest LOL except that it was used wrong in the wiki entry, if you look inside, it says push several times in the description and details. When you said Baneling push that article popped up in my mind. I wasn't saying you were wrong if that's what you were thinking.
On July 01 2010 10:10 RisingTide wrote: Edit: That said, thesaurus.com says that 'push' is synonymous with 'attack'.
A thesaurus gives very context-sensitive suggestions. I highly doubt they considered broodwar inspired starcraft terminology when making the list of synonyms :p
none of this is even as bad as all the people branding broad builds as "the X build" i've already seen tons of people call one base muta "the sen build" and in a cast from husky or hd (can't quite remember) they called 15 pool the "idra build"
i think that the entire sc2 forum should close for 3 days. we could get some peace and silence around here- it would be an extended vacation for the mods- and even better, maybe some of the sc2 superawsomeupandcomingpros would leave
and for things like 'hellion pushes' which you quoted, well you push the zerg back to his natural + queen so 'push' feels appropriate for that, same with 'marinemedic pushes' and such in BW
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.docleaf.com/critique/Jul3008/angry.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://us.starcraft2.com/features/zerg/images/baneling-thumb4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.danieltroycarmichael.com/blog/Uploads/Image/2007/CartoonWizard.gif)
It's quite annoying when people misuse terminology... :/
