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Hope the rest of the world can follow their example!
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United States12607 Posts
On June 28 2010 14:22 kzn wrote:
Uh... why?
The only reason tax benefits are given out is to 'pay' for something that is being done for the state. If a marriage of type A is better for the state than a marriage of type B, the first type of marriage should receive better tax benefits.
Are you suggesting that the government could incentivize homosexuals to enter "productive" heterosexual marriages through tax breaks? Or merely that straight people should get tax breaks because of their more "productive" sexuality?
Seems your understanding of homosexuality is circa 1975. (see subsequent posts)
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I don't see anything wrong with homosexual marriage. About time.
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On June 28 2010 14:22 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:16 Djzapz wrote:If in a certain country, some government benefits are only possible to get through marriage, then ANY couple of two persons (or more for all I care) should be able to fill up some forms and bam, get their tax cuts or whatever. Uh... why? The only reason tax benefits are given out is to 'pay' for something that is being done for the state. If a marriage of type A is better for the state than a marriage of type B, the first type of marriage should receive better tax benefits.
Other than not having kids, I can't see a benefit straight marriage has over gay marriage in terms of providing for the state.
Sooo.... should we start fining the old people who married but never had children? What about if women have a tilted uterus or men are shooting blanks? How much privacy are we willing to invade here?
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On June 28 2010 14:21 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:08 RageOverdose wrote:On June 28 2010 13:52 Alou wrote:On June 28 2010 13:49 Djzapz wrote:
Yay @ the world moving forward on issues that don't really matter. This issue is special in that it shows maturity for allowing something inoffensive and immaturity for wanting something completely useless. Wanting something completely useless? If I want to marry a man I should be allowed to just as if I wanted to marry a woman. How is having that right recognized useless? How is marriage useful in and of itself, not with what we have put with it officially through the state? Marriage is just really a title. All in all, it serves no purpose, and is really just ceremonial above practical. The idea of gifts and such, in my opinion, should be for the benefit of raising children, not to commemorate someone's love officially, I think that's silly. Although I don't see anything wrong with marriage and I wouldn't stop anyone, to call it useful is really weird. And I mean this in the official, state-sanctioned sense, not any personal sense. If two people want to be recognized for their partnership, by all means. But I'm glad that countries are recognizing same sex marriage. People who don't like it won't actually have their marriages ruined because of it. In my opinion marriage represents an important social purpose. It is a representation of commitment to the community and society in general that you are forming a union with another person. This includes not only the two people getting married but also their respective families and resources. I think this is an important bond that helps keep the fabric of society strong. It is also a commitment to raising a family, and while marriage is not a prerequisite obviously, it is still the most established environment for raising children. Your complaint about gifts has nothing to do with marriage, but rather weddings. That is an entirely separate issue. The state-sanctioned aspect of marriage is simply for tax and organizational purposes, (it saves you a lot of money, so it is useful) and if you are not comfortable with that you can simply have a ceremony and remain common-law, enjoying all the benefits of an officially married couple (at least in Canada). And finally, I don't care who marries who. If two dudes want to get married, it doesn't affect me whatsoever. If they want to adopt... well that is a different story.
Good right up until the end I think.
Why would two dudes (or two women) adopting a child affect you in any way?
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On June 28 2010 14:32 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:22 kzn wrote:On June 28 2010 14:16 Djzapz wrote:If in a certain country, some government benefits are only possible to get through marriage, then ANY couple of two persons (or more for all I care) should be able to fill up some forms and bam, get their tax cuts or whatever. Uh... why? The only reason tax benefits are given out is to 'pay' for something that is being done for the state. If a marriage of type A is better for the state than a marriage of type B, the first type of marriage should receive better tax benefits. Other than not having kids, I can't see a benefit straight marriage has over gay marriage in terms of providing for the state. Sooo.... should we start fining the old people who married but never had children? What about if women have a tilted uterus or men are shooting blanks? How much privacy are we willing to invade here?
^ Listen to this guy. His posts are almost always good.
(If this is ever untrue, I take no responsibility)
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In the past the government was not even involved in the question of marriage. It was only recently at least in the united states that states started issuing licences to get married and placing terms of restrictions on those licences. In terms of application, marriage is simply a property contract granting shared property. For some it means a lot of other things, but the government has no right to dictate to terms, conditions, or rules concerning marriage. The best solution is to remove the word marriage from all legislation. In any places where someone gets tax breaks or benefits, change it to households. There is no reason why the government should dictate the terms of my marriage at all.
Why this is the best solution.
1. Allows people to define marriage however they want.
2. Allows businesses to define marriage however they want.
3. Allows churches to define marriage however they want and discriminate if they so choose.
Done
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United States12607 Posts
One more thing on this issue: "marriage" is something between two people and their church / family / the marrying institution. It's only the bundle of rights and privileges that come with marriage that are government business at all. Proposing that the government can control whether people marry is like proposing that the government can control whether my favorite color is green. The government might be able to deny me some rights if I say my favorite color is green, but no law is going to change the fact that I like green. Similarly no law is going to change the fact that gay couples are married, and believe they are married, when they undergo a certain ceremony / make a commitment / whatever.
Put another way: you can't tell me that two people who commit to be together exclusively until the day they die (in a marriage ceremony) are "not married" simply because some elected dudes across the country said so. Any gay couple that's been married is married, the government can pretend they're not but that's farcical. The only real issues here are 1) will the government give that couple the rights a straight couple could have and 2) a purely cultural / political one: will the government sanction their marriage by referring to it as such.
This is why "civil unions" (answering yes to question 1 but no to question 2) are unsatisfying: a "civil union" scheme says "ok gays, you can have your rights, but just as a fuck you to you guys, we're not going to call it marriage. ppbbbbbbbbtttt." Seems like a really low, unnecessary, purely animus-motivated blow to gays: simply refusing to acknowledge that they are married.
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On June 28 2010 14:40 JWD wrote:
One more thing on this issue: "marriage" is something between two people and their church / family / the marrying institution. It's only the bundle of rights and privileges that come with marriage that are government business at all. Proposing that the government can control whether people marry is like proposing that the government can control whether my favorite color is green. The government might be able to deny me some rights if I say my favorite color is green, but no law is going to change the fact that I like green. Similarly no law is going to change the fact that gay couples are married, and believe they are married, when they undergo a certain ceremony / make a commitment / whatever.
Put another way: you can't tell me that two people who commit to be together exclusively until the day they die (in a marriage ceremony) are "not married" simply because some elected dudes across the country said so. Any gay couple that's been married is married, the government can pretend they're not but that's farcical. The only real issues here are 1) will the government give that couple the rights a straight couple could have and 2) a purely cultural / political one: will the government sanction their marriage by referring to it as such.
haha we almost posted the exact same thing at the same time.
Answers.
1. No they shouldn't, there shouldn't be any more or less rights for being married
2. No, the government needs to not be involved at all.
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United States12607 Posts
On June 28 2010 14:44 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:40 JWD wrote:
One more thing on this issue: "marriage" is something between two people and their church / family / the marrying institution. It's only the bundle of rights and privileges that come with marriage that are government business at all. Proposing that the government can control whether people marry is like proposing that the government can control whether my favorite color is green. The government might be able to deny me some rights if I say my favorite color is green, but no law is going to change the fact that I like green. Similarly no law is going to change the fact that gay couples are married, and believe they are married, when they undergo a certain ceremony / make a commitment / whatever.
Put another way: you can't tell me that two people who commit to be together exclusively until the day they die (in a marriage ceremony) are "not married" simply because some elected dudes across the country said so. Any gay couple that's been married is married, the government can pretend they're not but that's farcical. The only real issues here are 1) will the government give that couple the rights a straight couple could have and 2) a purely cultural / political one: will the government sanction their marriage by referring to it as such. haha we almost posted the exact same thing at the same time. Answers. 1. No they shouldn't, there shouldn't be any more or less rights for being married 2. No, the government needs to not be involved at all.
I mean if I was rewriting our laws from scratch I'd answer as you did to question 2, but the unfortunate fact is that the US govt. already refers to couples as "married" for many legal purposes, and it would be a political nightmare to get it to come off that (can you imagine the reaction from religious loonies if the government said "ok, to be fair to everyone we are now calling your marriage a civil union"? It'd be feeding them the shit sandwich they're trying to serve gays). So given that "marriage" is already in the books, we should just use the term to refer to both homo and hetero couples.
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Osaka27179 Posts
On June 28 2010 14:37 GogoKodo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:21 Manifesto7 wrote:On June 28 2010 14:08 RageOverdose wrote:On June 28 2010 13:52 Alou wrote:On June 28 2010 13:49 Djzapz wrote:
Yay @ the world moving forward on issues that don't really matter. This issue is special in that it shows maturity for allowing something inoffensive and immaturity for wanting something completely useless. Wanting something completely useless? If I want to marry a man I should be allowed to just as if I wanted to marry a woman. How is having that right recognized useless? How is marriage useful in and of itself, not with what we have put with it officially through the state? Marriage is just really a title. All in all, it serves no purpose, and is really just ceremonial above practical. The idea of gifts and such, in my opinion, should be for the benefit of raising children, not to commemorate someone's love officially, I think that's silly. Although I don't see anything wrong with marriage and I wouldn't stop anyone, to call it useful is really weird. And I mean this in the official, state-sanctioned sense, not any personal sense. If two people want to be recognized for their partnership, by all means. But I'm glad that countries are recognizing same sex marriage. People who don't like it won't actually have their marriages ruined because of it. In my opinion marriage represents an important social purpose. It is a representation of commitment to the community and society in general that you are forming a union with another person. This includes not only the two people getting married but also their respective families and resources. I think this is an important bond that helps keep the fabric of society strong. It is also a commitment to raising a family, and while marriage is not a prerequisite obviously, it is still the most established environment for raising children. Your complaint about gifts has nothing to do with marriage, but rather weddings. That is an entirely separate issue. The state-sanctioned aspect of marriage is simply for tax and organizational purposes, (it saves you a lot of money, so it is useful) and if you are not comfortable with that you can simply have a ceremony and remain common-law, enjoying all the benefits of an officially married couple (at least in Canada). And finally, I don't care who marries who. If two dudes want to get married, it doesn't affect me whatsoever. If they want to adopt... well that is a different story. Good right up until the end I think. Why would two dudes (or two women) adopting a child affect you in any way?
It doesn't affect me, but I have a feeling it affects the children. I am not sure I am comfortable with children being raised in the environment. This isn't something I am willing to march for, and I know that a good or bad environment exists in individual situations regardless of parental makeup, but I am not sure how to reconcile a homosexual relationship with parental upbringing. Because I cannot reconcile that dichotomy, I am not comfortable with the situation.
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United States12607 Posts
On June 28 2010 14:48 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:37 GogoKodo wrote:On June 28 2010 14:21 Manifesto7 wrote:On June 28 2010 14:08 RageOverdose wrote:On June 28 2010 13:52 Alou wrote:On June 28 2010 13:49 Djzapz wrote:
Yay @ the world moving forward on issues that don't really matter. This issue is special in that it shows maturity for allowing something inoffensive and immaturity for wanting something completely useless. Wanting something completely useless? If I want to marry a man I should be allowed to just as if I wanted to marry a woman. How is having that right recognized useless? How is marriage useful in and of itself, not with what we have put with it officially through the state? Marriage is just really a title. All in all, it serves no purpose, and is really just ceremonial above practical. The idea of gifts and such, in my opinion, should be for the benefit of raising children, not to commemorate someone's love officially, I think that's silly. Although I don't see anything wrong with marriage and I wouldn't stop anyone, to call it useful is really weird. And I mean this in the official, state-sanctioned sense, not any personal sense. If two people want to be recognized for their partnership, by all means. But I'm glad that countries are recognizing same sex marriage. People who don't like it won't actually have their marriages ruined because of it. In my opinion marriage represents an important social purpose. It is a representation of commitment to the community and society in general that you are forming a union with another person. This includes not only the two people getting married but also their respective families and resources. I think this is an important bond that helps keep the fabric of society strong. It is also a commitment to raising a family, and while marriage is not a prerequisite obviously, it is still the most established environment for raising children. Your complaint about gifts has nothing to do with marriage, but rather weddings. That is an entirely separate issue. The state-sanctioned aspect of marriage is simply for tax and organizational purposes, (it saves you a lot of money, so it is useful) and if you are not comfortable with that you can simply have a ceremony and remain common-law, enjoying all the benefits of an officially married couple (at least in Canada). And finally, I don't care who marries who. If two dudes want to get married, it doesn't affect me whatsoever. If they want to adopt... well that is a different story. Good right up until the end I think. Why would two dudes (or two women) adopting a child affect you in any way? It doesn't affect me, I have a feeling it affects the children. I am not sure I am comfortable with children being raised in the environment. This isn't something I am willing to march for, and I know that a good or bad environment exists in individual situations regardless of parental makeup, but I am not sure how to reconcile a homosexual relationship with parental upbringing. Because I cannot reconcile that dichotomy, I am not comfortable with the situation.
Children brought up by same-sex couples would have slightly different childhoods to be sure. But the empirical evidence is that gays are not inferior parents. And when you consider how many children there are living in shitholes with abusive parents, or in foster homes and orphanages waiting for adoption, it seems a travesty to prevent a significant population of willing, able parents from raising kids.
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On June 28 2010 14:48 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:37 GogoKodo wrote:On June 28 2010 14:21 Manifesto7 wrote:On June 28 2010 14:08 RageOverdose wrote:On June 28 2010 13:52 Alou wrote:On June 28 2010 13:49 Djzapz wrote:
Yay @ the world moving forward on issues that don't really matter. This issue is special in that it shows maturity for allowing something inoffensive and immaturity for wanting something completely useless. Wanting something completely useless? If I want to marry a man I should be allowed to just as if I wanted to marry a woman. How is having that right recognized useless? How is marriage useful in and of itself, not with what we have put with it officially through the state? Marriage is just really a title. All in all, it serves no purpose, and is really just ceremonial above practical. The idea of gifts and such, in my opinion, should be for the benefit of raising children, not to commemorate someone's love officially, I think that's silly. Although I don't see anything wrong with marriage and I wouldn't stop anyone, to call it useful is really weird. And I mean this in the official, state-sanctioned sense, not any personal sense. If two people want to be recognized for their partnership, by all means. But I'm glad that countries are recognizing same sex marriage. People who don't like it won't actually have their marriages ruined because of it. In my opinion marriage represents an important social purpose. It is a representation of commitment to the community and society in general that you are forming a union with another person. This includes not only the two people getting married but also their respective families and resources. I think this is an important bond that helps keep the fabric of society strong. It is also a commitment to raising a family, and while marriage is not a prerequisite obviously, it is still the most established environment for raising children. Your complaint about gifts has nothing to do with marriage, but rather weddings. That is an entirely separate issue. The state-sanctioned aspect of marriage is simply for tax and organizational purposes, (it saves you a lot of money, so it is useful) and if you are not comfortable with that you can simply have a ceremony and remain common-law, enjoying all the benefits of an officially married couple (at least in Canada). And finally, I don't care who marries who. If two dudes want to get married, it doesn't affect me whatsoever. If they want to adopt... well that is a different story. Good right up until the end I think. Why would two dudes (or two women) adopting a child affect you in any way? It doesn't affect me, but I have a feeling it affects the children. I am not sure I am comfortable with children being raised in the environment. This isn't something I am willing to march for, and I know that a good or bad environment exists in individual situations regardless of parental makeup, but I am not sure how to reconcile a homosexual relationship with parental upbringing. Because I cannot reconcile that dichotomy, I am not comfortable with the situation.
Just wondering, but could you explain further about how you feel it would affect the children?
edit: 100% agreed with JWD
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On June 28 2010 14:38 darmousseh wrote:
In the past the government was not even involved in the question of marriage. It was only recently at least in the united states that states started issuing licences to get married and placing terms of restrictions on those licences. In terms of application, marriage is simply a property contract granting shared property. For some it means a lot of other things, but the government has no right to dictate to terms, conditions, or rules concerning marriage. The best solution is to remove the word marriage from all legislation. In any places where someone gets tax breaks or benefits, change it to households. There is no reason why the government should dictate the terms of my marriage at all.
Why this is the best solution.
1. Allows people to define marriage however they want.
2. Allows businesses to define marriage however they want.
3. Allows churches to define marriage however they want and discriminate if they so choose.
Done
I'm sorry, but too bad. Marriage is, and has been, a government institution since the beginning of our government (Well, past the articles of confederation cuz Idk about that, lol). It is stated in the constitution that government has control over laws regarding marriage. Therefore, they have the right to make laws regarding marriage. Also, changing every single piece of legislation from marriage to households would be EXTREMELY annoying and difficult. To do so would require the US to pass another constitutional amendment. Yeah, have fun doing that. >_>
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On June 28 2010 14:57 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:38 darmousseh wrote:
In the past the government was not even involved in the question of marriage. It was only recently at least in the united states that states started issuing licences to get married and placing terms of restrictions on those licences. In terms of application, marriage is simply a property contract granting shared property. For some it means a lot of other things, but the government has no right to dictate to terms, conditions, or rules concerning marriage. The best solution is to remove the word marriage from all legislation. In any places where someone gets tax breaks or benefits, change it to households. There is no reason why the government should dictate the terms of my marriage at all.
Why this is the best solution.
1. Allows people to define marriage however they want.
2. Allows businesses to define marriage however they want.
3. Allows churches to define marriage however they want and discriminate if they so choose.
Done
I'm sorry, but too bad. Marriage is, and has been, a government institution since the beginning of our government (Well, past the articles of confederation cuz Idk about that, lol). It is stated in the constitution that government has control over laws regarding marriage. Therefore, they have the right to make laws regarding marriage. Also, changing every single piece of legislation from marriage to households would be EXTREMELY annoying and difficult. To do so would require the US to pass another constitutional amendment. Yeah, have fun doing that. >_>
Just because it's borderline un-doable doesn't change the fact that it would be better. Unfortunately the constitution is far from perfect.
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GJ Iceland, maybe we'll see this all around the USA sometime in the future if we can keep the fanatics from causing too much of a ruckus in politics!
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United States12607 Posts
On June 28 2010 14:58 Whiplash wrote:
GJ Iceland, maybe we'll see this all around the USA sometime in the future if we can keep the fanatics from causing too much of a ruckus in politics!
It's really only a matter of time. This is one of those issues like segregation, voting for women: we just have to wait for enough backwards people to die and then we'll have the law that makes sense.
I mean just look at this LOL, even 18-29 year olds in WEST VIRGINIA are majority in favor of same sex marriage.
![[image loading]](http://contexts.org/socimages/files/2009/11/age1.jpg)
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On June 28 2010 14:50 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On June 28 2010 14:37 GogoKodo wrote:On June 28 2010 14:21 Manifesto7 wrote:On June 28 2010 14:08 RageOverdose wrote:On June 28 2010 13:52 Alou wrote:On June 28 2010 13:49 Djzapz wrote:
Yay @ the world moving forward on issues that don't really matter. This issue is special in that it shows maturity for allowing something inoffensive and immaturity for wanting something completely useless. Wanting something completely useless? If I want to marry a man I should be allowed to just as if I wanted to marry a woman. How is having that right recognized useless? How is marriage useful in and of itself, not with what we have put with it officially through the state? Marriage is just really a title. All in all, it serves no purpose, and is really just ceremonial above practical. The idea of gifts and such, in my opinion, should be for the benefit of raising children, not to commemorate someone's love officially, I think that's silly. Although I don't see anything wrong with marriage and I wouldn't stop anyone, to call it useful is really weird. And I mean this in the official, state-sanctioned sense, not any personal sense. If two people want to be recognized for their partnership, by all means. But I'm glad that countries are recognizing same sex marriage. People who don't like it won't actually have their marriages ruined because of it. In my opinion marriage represents an important social purpose. It is a representation of commitment to the community and society in general that you are forming a union with another person. This includes not only the two people getting married but also their respective families and resources. I think this is an important bond that helps keep the fabric of society strong. It is also a commitment to raising a family, and while marriage is not a prerequisite obviously, it is still the most established environment for raising children. Your complaint about gifts has nothing to do with marriage, but rather weddings. That is an entirely separate issue. The state-sanctioned aspect of marriage is simply for tax and organizational purposes, (it saves you a lot of money, so it is useful) and if you are not comfortable with that you can simply have a ceremony and remain common-law, enjoying all the benefits of an officially married couple (at least in Canada). And finally, I don't care who marries who. If two dudes want to get married, it doesn't affect me whatsoever. If they want to adopt... well that is a different story. Good right up until the end I think. Why would two dudes (or two women) adopting a child affect you in any way? It doesn't affect me, I have a feeling it affects the children. I am not sure I am comfortable with children being raised in the environment. This isn't something I am willing to march for, and I know that a good or bad environment exists in individual situations regardless of parental makeup, but I am not sure how to reconcile a homosexual relationship with parental upbringing. Because I cannot reconcile that dichotomy, I am not comfortable with the situation. Children brought up by same-sex couples would have slightly different childhoods to be sure. But the empirical evidence is that gays are not inferior parents. And when you consider how many children there are living in shitholes with abusive parents, or in foster homes and orphanages waiting for adoption, it seems a travesty to prevent a significant population of willing, able parents from raising kids.
I was wasting time web surfing while you basically responded for me.
A little addition I would like to make though. Even if there was evidence that a child being brought up with homosexual parents showed that they were some how hindered in development or faced some hardships I still don't think it would be a good reason to stop it. I imagine interracial couples adopting or having children and those children could have a harder time growing up. I'm quite sure this is something you have familiarity with. And as for myself I've dealt with it (half Chinese half Caucasian), growing up and not feeling a part of certain groups. Or being part of a group but not completely, such as hanging out with Chinese peers but not knowing the language myself.
Unless there is abuse or neglect of the children going on I don't see why children should be denied to someone.
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Marriage is just really a title. All in all, it serves no purpose, and is really just ceremonial above practical.
Gays want their special wedding day as well.
(I know you're in favour of marriage, just using the quote.)
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On June 28 2010 14:58 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2010 14:57 ghrur wrote:On June 28 2010 14:38 darmousseh wrote:
In the past the government was not even involved in the question of marriage. It was only recently at least in the united states that states started issuing licences to get married and placing terms of restrictions on those licences. In terms of application, marriage is simply a property contract granting shared property. For some it means a lot of other things, but the government has no right to dictate to terms, conditions, or rules concerning marriage. The best solution is to remove the word marriage from all legislation. In any places where someone gets tax breaks or benefits, change it to households. There is no reason why the government should dictate the terms of my marriage at all.
Why this is the best solution.
1. Allows people to define marriage however they want.
2. Allows businesses to define marriage however they want.
3. Allows churches to define marriage however they want and discriminate if they so choose.
Done
I'm sorry, but too bad. Marriage is, and has been, a government institution since the beginning of our government (Well, past the articles of confederation cuz Idk about that, lol). It is stated in the constitution that government has control over laws regarding marriage. Therefore, they have the right to make laws regarding marriage. Also, changing every single piece of legislation from marriage to households would be EXTREMELY annoying and difficult. To do so would require the US to pass another constitutional amendment. Yeah, have fun doing that. >_> Just because it's borderline un-doable doesn't change the fact that it would be better. Unfortunately the constitution is far from perfect.
Well, see, that's just the thing though. It is unrealistic to change the constitution for such a minor issue. I mean, we could simply have marriage have multiple definitions between people of different professions (like we have with countless words).
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EPT
